• MudMan@fedia.io
    169·
    4 months ago

    And DS9 is the conservative one with all the religion and the baseball and the war crimes and stuff.

    TNG was run by a Frenchman who thought allowing bronze age species to believe in God was a barbaric act and went to bat as a human rights lawyer for an android who in turn let his first child pick their gender at will. All that while his polyamorous first officer was busy arguing against conversion therapy when pushed upon his trans nonbinary partner.

    • confusedbytheBasics@lemmy.worldEnglish
      29·
      4 months ago

      Uh… He wasn’t against allowing anyone to believe in a god of gods. He only took issue with people worshipping “The Picard” and Ardra scamming.

      • Iheartcheese@lemmy.world
        55·
        4 months ago

        He gave a speech about how they had moved past religion and he wasn’t going to allow them to go back to superstition

        • MudMan@fedia.io
          37·
          4 months ago

          I looked it up.

          Horrifying. Dr. Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the dark ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? NO!

          Man was such an atheist I’m mildly surprised he isn’t more of a terminally online conservative. He’s too pro-choice, though, so I think we’re safe.

      • ummthatguy@lemmy.worldEnglish
        26·
        4 months ago

        He knew Ardra was a phony, but still passed up the opportunity.

        That takes some restraint and willpower, as opposed to Will-power, cause we all know Riker would.

        • Taleya@aussie.zone
          8·
          4 months ago

          He’s met it enough times at this point that it’s not belief. You don’t believe in a fact.

        • MudMan@fedia.io
          5·
          4 months ago

          Nah. There is a whole omnipotent being with a massive crush on him and Picard treats him like a nuisance he deals with at regular intervals. First thing he did when Q got briefly depowered was put him in the brig.

          Picard knows the Koala is real but he has zero respect for cosmic marsupials in general.

          • teft@lemmy.world
            3·
            4 months ago

            Wait, I thought we all did. Which is why I suggested a superior being such as JLP also does.

              • teft@lemmy.world
                2·
                4 months ago

                And may you always feel his weird double thumbed hands guiding you in your daily mod report decisions. Channel your inner Dukat.

    • Seasm0ke@lemmy.world
      12·
      4 months ago

      Yeah DS9 was good, but it took me a long time to get past the fact that they made the Federation freaking space NATO. Martial law, biological weapons on your own citizens, papers please, most with the subtext (or lengthy deleted personal log) that morality is for peace time, and some of your favorite values should be abandoned when the stakes are high.

      I think ENT is the most conservative tbh. Who else would go that far to get revenge for Florida?

      • MudMan@fedia.io
        12·
        4 months ago

        I haven’t gotten past that, to be honest.

        To this day I have a visceral reaction to all the online nerds complaining about NuTrek not being Starfleet enough but having memory holed that DS9 got that exact pushback at the time for honestly way more legitimate reasons.

        • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
          2·
          4 months ago

          And look at how DS9 is seen now.

          But to be fair, do you really think the future will look back at Discovery the same way?

          • MudMan@fedia.io
            1·
            4 months ago

            Hm… had season 5 been better, maybe. Like Discovery it starts with a different tone and then it finds itself, but it unfortunately ends in a bit of a dud. I think seasons 2-4 are good to great, though, it’s just never quite as smart as TNG.

            Season 1 is… underrated? It buckles under the pressure of expectations as a revival to kickstart a whole new era, but I think as a movie it would have worked pretty well, honestly. Better than most of the cheap fluff they put in theatres during the TNG movie era.

            But I also think DS9 is overrated. besides the straight-up bad wheelspin-y early episodes, my last rewatch ended when they spent a whole show making O’Brian argue for doing a bit of murder, then doing a bunch of murder himself and then the show being so much in agreement with him that this is taken as a bit of a teachable moment.

            It’s been decades and I was still pissed. At least Michael got court martialled.

            • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
              3·
              4 months ago

              Season 1

              I mean, how many Star Treks have a great Season 1? Other than SNW :P

              I am not a mega Star Trek fan and skipped Discovery after season 1 TBH, but maybe I will go back and look at the later seasons, thanks.

              • MudMan@fedia.io
                3·
                4 months ago

                True. I was in a genuine rage halfway through Lower Decks season 1 and I’m now actively in “Save Lower Decks” team.

                I do recommend going back in your situation, then, because it really becomes a whole different show. Especially if you did enjoy SNW, the vibe of Season 2 is different but the characters are consistent, so it’s a natural jump-in point.

                • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
                  2·
                  4 months ago

                  Random recommendation at risk of being off topic, but you have to watch Pantheon (the animated TV series) if you like Lower Decks, assuming you haven’t seen it already.

                  I just discovered it and… holy heck. It’s incredible, and no one knows about it because the distribution/release is a disaster. It’s honestly some of the best sci fi I’ve consumed anywhere, period.

  • bastion@feddit.nl
    78·
    4 months ago

    Wokeness is not the issue with disco, et al. It’s terrible writing, poor science even for soft sci fi, and too many cringey moments.

    I get that some people love it. But the emotional resolution porn is, to me, just icky.

    • Gloomy@mander.xyz
      28·
      4 months ago

      This sums Dico up perfectly for me. I consider myself “woke”, I share the values they are advocating in Disco very much. But it’s just. So. Shoved. Into. It.

      It’s not subtle, it’s not something coming naturally to the story in most cases. It’s just badly writen into a already badly written overall show.

      And that, to be honest, is a shame.

      • Snowclone@lemmy.world
        8·
        4 months ago

        I disagree that it’s because of ‘‘shoved’’ or overt politics. It’s just God awful writing and a terrible idea for a ST show. They made it a chronological story about one protagonist. There’s consistent bridge crew we don’t even know their names, their character or story, or even get to hear them talk besides ‘‘there’s a [thing] captain!’’ Type of shit.

        No ensemble stories, no stand alone stories, and very close to no science fiction at all. It’s all just trying to give you high stakes action scenes with close to nothing else happening.

      • bastion@feddit.nl
        6·
        4 months ago

        For a great example of this sort of thing done right, compare The Expanse books to the show.

        The books kinda glossed over the head of the fucking entire earth’s story and plotline. In the show, she was a highlight. Also, a few characters were merged into one female character, and women, in general, were given more prevalence. Poly relationships were given good voice, and overall, things just fit and felt natural.

        That is to say: It can be done right. Disco just doesn’t do right, imo.

        • Gloomy@mander.xyz
          2·
          4 months ago

          I never watched the expanse with that angle in mind, but after you said it I have to agree. Just says something about how natural it was done when it just doesn’t stand out from the rest of the story at all.

    • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod@lemmy.worldEnglish
      12·
      4 months ago

      My biggest problem with Discovery is that whenever they see something interesting they have to cut to a reaction shot to every single person on the bridge but don’t even show us what they’re seeing.

      My second biggest problem is the writing. They don’t talk like Starfleet, they talk like people from the 2020s.

    • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
      6·
      4 months ago

      There’s so much wrong with it. Where’s the 80s office décore?

      If it doesn’t have some elements of kitsch, it’s not Star Trek.

      Star Trek is NOT a Netflix production that can be churned out with improved dark, edgy, and abstract lighting, sleek sets, and dutch angle cinematography… Star Trek is a series of Hallmark SciFi philosophy questions, set on fresh carpet with weird sculptures and props throughout.

      • marcos@lemmy.world
        1·
        4 months ago

        Star Trek is NOT a Netflix production that can be churned out with improved dark, edgy, and abstract lighting, sleek sets, and dutch angle cinematography…

        Well… It’s exactly like almost all the others. Netflix managed to hit some 3 shows that got improved this way.

  • flop_leash_973@lemmy.world
    77·
    4 months ago

    Not gonna lie, as a straight white man, I would watch a show called " Doctor Twink with his boyfriend fashion Lizard".

  • KevonLooney@lemm.ee
    75·
    4 months ago

    They forgot Libertarian Alien who’s there for comedic relief. His kooky libertarian plans reliably blow up in his face like Wile E. Coyote.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
      46·
      4 months ago

      Quite woke of them to give representation to a conservative too. We wouldn’t want to ignore any minorities. Not unless they shrink into nothingness. I hope.

      • IninewCrow@lemmy.caEnglish
        41·
        4 months ago

        Conservatism … in DS9 they gave them an entire planet called Ferenginar.

        I’m really loving the episodes with Brunt, Liquidator of the Ferengi Commerce Authority … if any being in the galaxy embodies taxation, it’s Brunt. I love him because I absolutely hate him, a truly genius piece of character creation.

          • IninewCrow@lemmy.caEnglish
            24·
            4 months ago

            Combs also said of Brunt, “He was the IRS guy from hell. He’s the guy who just kept coming back to make your life miserable, audit after audit after audit. I can imagine that that would be pretty awful. He also typified to me the inflexibility of someone who thinks their way is the right way.”

  • MrVilliam@lemmy.worldEnglish
    59·
    4 months ago

    The first interracial kiss on TV was between Kirk and Uhura in 1968. Star Trek is and always has been set in a time when humans have achieved a post-scarcity leftist utopian. Shit’s been this way since way before your uncle started calling everything he doesn’t like “woke” which was only like 4 years ago for the record.

    Know what was really woke? Keeping watch for police brutality and unjust police tactics. For real. I’m quoting this article lol.

    • peopleproblems@lemmy.world
      3·
      4 months ago

      Anything that progressives do is something they try to turn into a curse. They even try it with the word progress and progressive, but it doesn’t have the same effect which they really struggle with.

  • bblkargonaut@lemmy.world
    36·
    4 months ago

    The problem isnt woke, the problem is CW level writing. I’ve watched every episode of star Trek up to season 2 of Picard and the writers of discovery not understanding the speed of light, and it feel like the writers are just in qualified for their positions. It’s so bad.

    The writing for all the previous shows all had their highs and lows, but characters acted within their characterization and had genuine motivations. Picard season 1 was a rip off of mass effect and old man’s war, with the facade Picard shoe horned in. Season 2 you have him chummy with a cold blooded murderer who faced no consequences.

    I liked discovery for the first few seasons, but the plot holes, inconsistencies, and poor characterizations, left me feeling like watching the show was more habit or chore. I also never really felt like I got to know characters because their actions are so off the wall that you don’t figure out the algorithms of their personality and motivations.

    I honestly feel like lower decks has been the best Star Trek made in this new era, but I haven’t seen brave new worlds yet or Picard season 3. I just needed a break after Picard season 2.

    • then_three_more@lemmy.world
      16·
      4 months ago

      SNW is much better. It’s not a single story stretched to fit over a whole season helps a lot. It’s definitely one of the best of new era Trek.

      Season 3 of Picard is better than the first couple, but doesn’t really add anything.

      The stand out surprised at how god damned fucking good it is though is Prodigy. The first few episodes are a little bit childish, but after that it is excellent.

      • bblkargonaut@lemmy.world
        1·
        4 months ago

        I’ll have to give prodigy a chance, I loved Voyager and I heard there is a lot connections but the Voyager connections to Picard season 2 is partially why I needed a break from Trek, lol.

    • the_crotch@sh.itjust.works
      15·
      4 months ago

      SNW is legit really good. A return to form. They experimented with different genres like you mentioned on the other shows then when they were writing SNW some brilliant person was like “hey, how about if we tried making star trek?”

      • trolololol@lemmy.world
        6·
        4 months ago

        Agree SNW followed by LD are the best ones recently. And by far the best episode is the crossover of them both.

        I feel like to enjoy discovery I need to mute and turn off subtitles and just enjoy the graphics because they’re really good. But we’ll the most important things is that it open the doors to so many new series at same time, more than ever happened.

      • friendlymessage@feddit.de
        4·
        4 months ago

        I think it was more “how about we create some actually likable, interesting, and multidimensional characters making actually sensible decisions?” I think SNW is better here than even all the old shows. I have the feeling that stuff like Worf being such an inexplicably bad dad or Sisco completely out of character committing genocide in one episode would not happen in SNW.

    • usernamefactory@lemmy.ca
      9·
      4 months ago

      Season 2 you have him chummy with a cold blooded murderer who faced no consequences.

      Hey, Picard had already been chummy with Worf for years on TNG.

    • Ydna@lemmy.world
      7·
      4 months ago

      Picard s02 was a fever dream that fortunately didn’t go onward (s03 is a totally different contained story). I agree with you tho, Disco had different writers at the beginning but turned into a festering disaster and killed itself.

    • acosmichippo@lemmy.worldEnglish
      3·
      4 months ago

      picard 3 is ok if you can tolerate blatant fan service. BNW is pretty good. and i 100% agree with you about discovery and picard 1-2.

  • samus12345@lemmy.worldEnglish
    33·
    4 months ago

    They were too cowardly to make Doctor Twink and his boyfriend a thing, so they don’t get credit for that. Fashion Lizard works, though.

      • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.worldEnglish
        4·
        4 months ago

        That, and there is plenty of fanfic to fill the void. A little cowardly to leave it to the fans, but it’s not like they didn’t build the foundations. The writers deserve some credit.

      • UpperBroccoli@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        1·
        4 months ago

        There’s also that segment with Andrew Robinson in some DS9 docu where he states his opinion on the matter pretty clearly. Can’t remember his exact words, but his vibe was one of “shoulda let us have fucked”.

          • Taleya@aussie.zone
            2·
            4 months ago

            It’s been bloody hilarious if you’re long term fan, he’s gone over the years from coyly hinting at vague interests other than espionage to where we’re at now, where he’s outright saying ‘my motivation was i want to fuck this beautiful man’. Mostly due to society getting its head out of its arse, but still, hilarious

  • darkpanda@lemmy.ca
    31·
    4 months ago

    Let’s not forget:

    • The Kiss
    • white/black Riddler duking it out with black/white guy in an allegory to race relations
    • Abraham Lincoln calling Uhura a “a charming negress” followed by a brief discussion about the future’s take on linguistics and equality
    • the pilot episode had a woman named Number One who was so named because she was number one at everything she did. She excelled at all the things on the ship. A woman being better than men? Impossible. That’s woke.
    • the Enterprise and a bunch of klingons once showed up to a planet so woke they ended war and used space magic to make the humans and klingons also do no wars in their vicinity.
    • in another episode the Enterprise went to a planet that still had war but they calculated the results of battles using a video game console and then sent casualties to their death in a disintegration chamber and the Kirk blew up the video game console to force them to either negotiate or go back to actual war as a lesson in ignoring the Prime Directive directly.
    • there was a Nazi planet and the Nazis were the bad guys.
    • there was also a Yankee planet where they somehow independently wrote the Declaration of Independence in broken pidgin English and used it to defeat the Space Soviets.
    • the episode where Kirk and a woman exchange bodies was… not handled well and is not a good example.
    • the klingons were soviets, btw.
    • basically every episode of the original series had something “woke”, okay? It was literally the whole point of the series.
    • Fades@lemmy.world
      1·
      4 months ago

      Well said!!! To continue with your points, I really enjoyed this video essay that goes through a lot of what you’re talking about. Really proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that trek valued diversity in regards to both civil rights with race and LGBTQ. (Even though there’s no need to prove an obvious fact). It starts with DS9 but stretches to the rest of trek and even some non trek references

      https://youtu.be/j5_g1DY1FLg

      • Dasus@lemmy.world
        6·
        4 months ago

        Odo is an identity-seeking pre-proto-fascist who redeems himself. (pre and proto both because he’s not a fascist but he might have become one if the Kardassians Cardassians kept power)

        Imho

        Edit k->c

          • Dasus@lemmy.world
            4·
            4 months ago

            Oh fuck it’s with a c.

            Haven’t watched in a while and due to my native language sometimes it’s easy to confuse this shit. But also am very much not sober so more excuses from that as well.

            • magnetosphere@fedia.io
              2·
              4 months ago

              Perfectly excusable on either count. Please, feel no embarrassment. Plus, this is one of the funniest mistakes I’ve ever seen!

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
          2·
          4 months ago

          (pre and proto both because he’s not a fascist but he might have become one if the Kardassians Cardassians kept power)

          Disagree there. If there is one thing we know about Odo, it is that he has a very strong moral code and a strict sense of justice. Even when Terok Nor was under Cardassian Rule.

          • Dasus@lemmy.world
            2·
            4 months ago

            I would not disagree in the slightest that he has a very strict moral code. And that’s exactly why I said what I said.

            Because the strict code Odo lives by is one of following rules.

            During the Cardassian occupation, he worked as the rules told him to, unbiased. But the thing is that immoral men can make bad rules.

            Perhaps proto-fascist is a bit strong. Proto-authoritarian maybe. But either way, he clearly doesn’t go that way, and like I said, redeems himself.

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
              2·
              4 months ago

              In Tribunal, he talked about how he started out that way, but after executing three innocent Bajorans for a terrorist attack, he learned the meaning of justice.

              He was also only brought aboard Terok Nor in the first place because he was seen as a neutral third party.

              • Dasus@lemmy.world
                3·
                4 months ago

                “… because he was seen as a neutral third party.”

                Sort of my point, really.

                If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven.

                — Desmond Tutu

                • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
                  2·
                  4 months ago

                  Right, but what I am saying is that he figured out on his own while Cardassians were still occupying the station what justice meant and that it didn’t mean just following the rules.

      • marcos@lemmy.world
        1·
        4 months ago

        I don’t remember the series that well… did he learn how to impersonate an Irishman?

  • Thrashy@lemmy.world
    13·
    4 months ago

    Colm Meaney was associated with Sinn Fein (formerly the political arm of the IRA) for a long time, so “Pro-Union Irishman” took me a minute.

  • tan00k@lemmy.world
    12·
    4 months ago

    Are we head canoning Kira as bi now or is she including mirror universe Kira in this? Or maybe I missed something in several watches.

    • Aa!@lemmy.world
      14·
      4 months ago

      This is my problem with this meme whenever it comes up.

      There are so many direct occasions to bring up representation and acceptance in Star Trek, so why do people always jump straight into platonic erasure and make up sexualities that aren’t there?

      I for one always loved the ability for people in Trek to work and live close to each other and develop deep friendships without resorting to coupling up. Turning every friendship into something more romantic just seems disrespectful, because people are perfectly capable of being friends without needing to make something more of it

      • Taleya@aussie.zone
        11·
        4 months ago

        Babe, this ‘platonic erasure’ comes from the original airings.

        It was the 90’s, we were starved of everything. There was no overt representation. The comm still operated heavily in code, so if a show threw us circumspection we read between the lines.

        • Aa!@lemmy.world
          7·
          4 months ago

          You got Jadzia’s kiss, you got Riker and the androgynous species, and all of Intendant Kira.

          I’m not saying those few cases are enough representation (Kira being arguably a bad example, making her sexuality into a more “evil” trait), but they were definitely overt. On the other hand, there’s zero basis for saying Prime Kira was bi, and Doctor Twink was quite straight, no matter how gay Garak was.

          Honestly, I thought Julian and Garak was perfectly executed. Garak may have been flirty, but Julian was obviously more enamored with the spy scenario and intrigue (as we delved deeper into in Our Man Bashir and to some degree, the Section 31 episodes).

          • Taleya@aussie.zone
            1·
            4 months ago

            Oh a kiss in a doomed relationshipl! An evil, abusive dictator and another doomed romance that ended in what was essentially a lobotomy! Our cups truly ranneth over

            • Aa!@lemmy.world
              1·
              4 months ago

              I guess your attention span ran out after four words, so you ignored the rest of the explanation

              But that’s a you problem

              • Taleya@aussie.zone
                1·
                4 months ago

                Got nothing else so you resort to insults? Poor form.

                I really get the feeling you were not queer in the 90’s, and you’re trying to backfill what it was like. As someone who was (and still is, well the queer part at least) you’re getting it terribly wrong

                • Aa!@lemmy.world
                  1·
                  4 months ago

                  It’s not “nothing else”, you just ignored the rest of what I said. Literally everything in your last post was already addressed in what I said

                  If you took that as an insult, well… I’ve already said it.

      • PlainSimpleGarak@lemm.ee
        1·
        4 months ago

        People are weird. Trying to see things that aren’t there. Because…? Hell if I know. I’m just here for the shows. Not to question who might bang who.