Well that was an incident during war time which happens unfortunately.
Yes, I too repeatedly attack a ship frantically signaling me not to attack, in international waters, flying the flag of a friendly/neutral country, multiple times, from both air and sea, over the course of several hours. It just happens, you know?
But Hamas did kidnapped American citizens.
So? Fuck Hamas. They don’t have to be the postwar Palestinian government. They’re not even the legitimate Palestinian government now.
It’s Israel’s stated goal. But without proffering any alternative, it’s rather flimsy as an excuse. They don’t want the PA - hell, Israel funded Hamas specifically to sideline Fatah and the PA - and they’ve done nothing but enable Hamas’s suppression of alternatives in the Gaza Strip. The goal, quite nakedly, is a land grab, and excuses about Hamas are nothing but smokescreen.
Put it this way - if you want to wipe out a country entirely, recognize one group as the ruling authorities (Hamas), and then demand nothing short of that group’s total and unconditional surrender, with the implication that they’ll all be prosecuted as criminals afterwards.
Regimes, and especially gangster regimes like Hamas, generally do not surrender under such circumstances, so it’s carte blanche to continuously attack the country without having to worry about things like “Their government already surrendered, you bombing these cities is starting to look like mass murder”. You can just say, “No, no, the organization says they’re still fighting, so we’re definitely just cleaning up terrorists here! The onus is on them to give themselves up, not for us to stop bombing! The civilians are dead because of THEM, not us!”
I just wanted to add some context though. Hamas enjoys wide support among Palestinians and Hamas’s explicit objective, as outlined in its charter, is the eradication of the state of Israel. If the Palestinian people won’t accept that the Israeli state is here to stay then the differences are to remain irreconcilable. 10 million jews aren’t going to pack up and leave. The 68 borders aren’t happening either, no matter what kind of wishful thinking we employ. This is unfortunate, but it’s the reality we have to contend with sadly.
Don’t get me wrong though: this is no justification to use the security threat as casus belli in the way IDF is conducting this war. Plenty of reprehensible actions coming from the Israeli military. There is absolutely no way forward until the current political regime in Israel is replaced with better leadership.
Hamas enjoys wide support amongst Palestinians because Israel has continuously humiliated the PA by turning every good-faith attempt to interact with Israel into demonstrations of fealty.
Palestinians, by and large, see armed resistance as the path forward - and they may not be wrong. Hamas, however, is the only major player of note embracing armed resistance against the Israeli state, which means their shithead justifications get broader traction than they otherwise would. When Fatah accepted the existence of the state of Israel, Israel immediately started funding Islamist groups to undermine Fatah.
Hamas are shitheads. But the Palestinian support of Hamas is largely because of Israel’s behavior, not because Palestinians (and, I must note in agreement with you here, are hardly free of prejudices themselves) are inherently thirsting for the ethnic cleansing of Israel. They’re the only serious game in town since Israel stopped engaging in the two-state solution in good faith. Israel must change before Hamas can be meaningfully destroyed.
You’re not wrong but you’re also painting with a broad brush, which I understand-- a lot is happening here and very quickly. I always debate if it’s worth getting in the weeds in these types of discussions. For instance: Not Israel, but Netanyahu was responsible for the scheming and funding operations. It gets messy fast.
Edit: I love that I’m getting down voted not only for agreeing, but providing nuance and additional detail. As if my comments are exonorating the actions of IDF. Stay classy I guess.
Wow that is an extremely biased and cope filled article. It completely ignores why Hamas was created and got into power, the conditions that would lead to the creation of a resistance against Israel, Israel’s own public statements on genocide referenced by the ICJ, all of the civilian casualties, their own murders and hostages from before October 7th, their own blocking of aid (they call putting “Palestinians on a diet”), and the fact that they demanded a soldier presence in Gaza in the latest rounds of negotiations basically negating any hope that they’ll do what the author says they should at the end. We don’t have to guess what their goals are, they’ve said it.
Yes, I too repeatedly attack a ship frantically signaling me not to attack, in international waters, flying the flag of a friendly/neutral country, multiple times, from both air and sea, over the course of several hours. It just happens, you know?
So? Fuck Hamas. They don’t have to be the postwar Palestinian government. They’re not even the legitimate Palestinian government now.
I think this was one of the primary goals of the war.
It’s Israel’s stated goal. But without proffering any alternative, it’s rather flimsy as an excuse. They don’t want the PA - hell, Israel funded Hamas specifically to sideline Fatah and the PA - and they’ve done nothing but enable Hamas’s suppression of alternatives in the Gaza Strip. The goal, quite nakedly, is a land grab, and excuses about Hamas are nothing but smokescreen.
Put it this way - if you want to wipe out a country entirely, recognize one group as the ruling authorities (Hamas), and then demand nothing short of that group’s total and unconditional surrender, with the implication that they’ll all be prosecuted as criminals afterwards.
Regimes, and especially gangster regimes like Hamas, generally do not surrender under such circumstances, so it’s carte blanche to continuously attack the country without having to worry about things like “Their government already surrendered, you bombing these cities is starting to look like mass murder”. You can just say, “No, no, the organization says they’re still fighting, so we’re definitely just cleaning up terrorists here! The onus is on them to give themselves up, not for us to stop bombing! The civilians are dead because of THEM, not us!”
Pug,
I respect you and I agree with your take.
I just wanted to add some context though. Hamas enjoys wide support among Palestinians and Hamas’s explicit objective, as outlined in its charter, is the eradication of the state of Israel. If the Palestinian people won’t accept that the Israeli state is here to stay then the differences are to remain irreconcilable. 10 million jews aren’t going to pack up and leave. The 68 borders aren’t happening either, no matter what kind of wishful thinking we employ. This is unfortunate, but it’s the reality we have to contend with sadly.
Don’t get me wrong though: this is no justification to use the security threat as casus belli in the way IDF is conducting this war. Plenty of reprehensible actions coming from the Israeli military. There is absolutely no way forward until the current political regime in Israel is replaced with better leadership.
Hamas enjoys wide support amongst Palestinians because Israel has continuously humiliated the PA by turning every good-faith attempt to interact with Israel into demonstrations of fealty.
Palestinians, by and large, see armed resistance as the path forward - and they may not be wrong. Hamas, however, is the only major player of note embracing armed resistance against the Israeli state, which means their shithead justifications get broader traction than they otherwise would. When Fatah accepted the existence of the state of Israel, Israel immediately started funding Islamist groups to undermine Fatah.
Hamas are shitheads. But the Palestinian support of Hamas is largely because of Israel’s behavior, not because Palestinians (and, I must note in agreement with you here, are hardly free of prejudices themselves) are inherently thirsting for the ethnic cleansing of Israel. They’re the only serious game in town since Israel stopped engaging in the two-state solution in good faith. Israel must change before Hamas can be meaningfully destroyed.
You’re not wrong but you’re also painting with a broad brush, which I understand-- a lot is happening here and very quickly. I always debate if it’s worth getting in the weeds in these types of discussions. For instance: Not Israel, but Netanyahu was responsible for the scheming and funding operations. It gets messy fast.
Edit: I love that I’m getting down voted not only for agreeing, but providing nuance and additional detail. As if my comments are exonorating the actions of IDF. Stay classy I guess.
Not really. The goal of the war is genocide. If anything, they’re making a ton of new Hamas members from all the orphans, widows, and widowers.
This article goes through Israel’s goals and their current status: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israel-winning
Wow that is an extremely biased and cope filled article. It completely ignores why Hamas was created and got into power, the conditions that would lead to the creation of a resistance against Israel, Israel’s own public statements on genocide referenced by the ICJ, all of the civilian casualties, their own murders and hostages from before October 7th, their own blocking of aid (they call putting “Palestinians on a diet”), and the fact that they demanded a soldier presence in Gaza in the latest rounds of negotiations basically negating any hope that they’ll do what the author says they should at the end. We don’t have to guess what their goals are, they’ve said it.
I commend you for your speed reading skills.
Lol thanks.