Stephen Starr in Hamtramck, Michigan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 11.00 EDT
Because Trump is so likely to be a better choice for solving the Israel-Gaza crisis, lol.
When you can’t even call it a genocide of Gazans by Israel you should rethink whether you should even comment.
Good thing no one is making that argument then.
The existence of this post is the embodiment of that argument you clown
LOL
So you’re saying some people are making that argument? Who are they?
Nobody said that, neither choice is going to solve it so it’s better to abandon both if genocide is a red line for you.
Aha, so just don’t participate. Cool cool.
I’m all on-board with revolution.
What’s the plan, my friend? How do you plan to fight against knife-missiles?
There are currently armed militias targeting bureaucrats for violence due to Republican misinformation. How many more escalations really remain before a full-blown civil war?
I’m not advocating for revolution, but it certainly seems more likely than the Democrats dropping their unwavering support for Israel.
There have always been armed militias targeting the federal government. You know who those armed militias support for President? You know which candidate would welcome those armed militias?
I don’t disagree, homey. Seems like the militias are going to be a growing problem regardless of the election. What we disagree on here is the solution.
For me, the solution is for the Dems to call the genocide what it is and force a ceasefire.
I’m not judging people for pulling the only lever the US system gives them. I don’t advocate for voting for Trump and don’t recommend anyone does, but I do understand how some people might choose to vote against the people who are currently bombing them with the hope that the only other option won’t.
If Trump wins, there will certainly be a revolution. But probably not the kind you’re looking for.
I don’t think continuation of the ever-worsening status quo counts as a revolution
What about Trump could possibly make you think that he would continue the status quo in any way, shape or form? He already publically said he would turn the military on anyone who opposed him.
We also know how he feels about anyone who isn’t a straight, white, Christian male, so how anyone arrives at the conclusion that things wouldn’t be catastrophically worse for everyone outside that demographic is a complete mystery to me.
I’m tired of the argument here that voting for a third party will make some sort of positive statement, so just do what you have to do. When Trump wins and starts deporting (or worse) Muslims currently in this country, they can all go see if Jill Stein will save them. The status quo sucks, but it’s also a lot harder to campaign for change after they’ve been expelled from the country.
For what it’s worth, I am 100% against the genocide in Gaza and I want the bombs to stop being delivered. However, it’s easier to rally and protest for change without someone aspiring to be a dictator in power.
What about Trump could possibly make you think that he would continue the status quo in any way, shape or form? He already publically said he would turn the military on anyone who opposed him.
America is a dying empire, that is the status quo.
We also know how he feels about anyone who isn’t a straight, white, Christian male, so how anyone arrives at the conclusion that things wouldn’t be catastrophically worse for everyone outside that demographic is a complete mystery to me.
We also know that the dems haven’t been protecting anyone from republicans.
I’m tired of the argument here that voting for a third party will make some sort of positive statement, so just do what you have to do. When Trump wins and starts deporting (or worse) Muslims currently in this country, they can all go see if Jill Stein will save them. The status quo sucks, but it’s also a lot harder to campaign for change after they’ve been expelled from the country.
For what it’s worth, I am 100% against the genocide in Gaza and I want the bombs to stop being delivered. However, it’s easier to rally and protest for change without someone aspiring to be a dictator in power.
Big talk for someone arguing against protesting for change.
They say that every time, and people are fooled each new election. The US system is not a democracy, but it’s really good at convincing it’s citizens that they live in one.
Who the fuck said anything about Trump? Not sure why you think people dying from American bombs give a fuck about who sent them.
Can you crawl out of your narrow worldview for just a second and recognize that real people are experiencing a real genocide?
That’s not some Russian propaganda spin either, but recognized by the ICJ.
I agree there’s a horrific genocide taking place, aided by the USA, and all Americans should be ashamed of this. But to be fair, the headline indicates these voters will vote against Harris. Either that’s a vote for Trump or a vote for a third party. Either way it increases trump’s likelihood of being elected.
Ok? There’s a simple solution here for the democrats.
Let’s not engage in victim blaming here and recognize who has power to end this and who is exercising their right to express their profound and utter disappointment in a political system that is, at best, ambivalent to their suffering.
Democrats chose this hill to die on, not the voters.
You know what it’s called when voters aren’t allowed to vote for the candidate they desire?
No, it’s the voters. You can’t just forever blame your garbage decisions on other people.
Ah yes, my decision to continue funding paramilitaries in the West Bank.
That I definitely made.
Who the fuck said I don’t believe there’s a genocide going on?
calling it the “Israel-Gaza crisis” implies equivalence. As somebody else notes, not using the word genocide is also a strong signal that you don’t believe it’s a genocide. Finally, you used “lol” when talking about a genocide. In short, all evidence in your message suggests that you do not take it seriously.
If the point of your comment isn’t to minimize suffering and mock people for their political choice, then what is the point of your comment?
So the two realistic options are Trump and Harris. You do realize Netanyahu wants Trump to win, correct? You do realize Trump isn’t going to do a damn thing except attempt to install himself as God Emperor of the US if he’s elected while utterly ignoring all outside politics, yes? So by not voting for Kamala, that’s what you’re signalling you’re ok with.
Harris has at least signaled she is willing to consider forcing Isreal to some sort of negotiation table. Although neither side is going to say anything particularly inflammatory ahead of the election because… AIPAC, who has literally thrown millions at any candidate that has spoken out against them pre-election.
Homey, she’s vice president today. If she gave a fuck, we wouldn’t be where we are.
Well idk how Harris can possibly think that videos of her being “slay” and “brat” will fool people who are against genocide into siding with her. It’s very fucked up and Trump is going to be much worse for domestic politics, but I think at this point Arabs have nothing to lose. Also I don’t think many of them would for Trump, they’d rather vote third party or not at all.
Seeing yourself dehumanized on a daily basis by the current administration I wouldn’t give a shit either. They have already shown what they stand for and they promised to continue. If the dems lose against Trump, it’s their own fault. They know what to do, they need to stop the genocide, but they won’t and Arab voters see that.
Trump is gonna suck but that dipshit only cares about money and personal flattery, which adds the element of unpredictability. He’s mostly likely going to be even worse than Biden because he won’t give a shit about Palestinians, but any random shit could happen that makes him do a u-turn. I don’t think it’s likely but it’s the only good thing I could see coming out of this.
He’s mostly likely going to be even worse than Biden because he won’t give a shit about Palestinians
Biden also does not give a shit about Palestinians. I don’t know how anyone can watch the happenings of the last year and come away with the idea that Biden gives a single shit about Palestinians.
Yeah you’re absolutely right and I actually never meant to say that Biden gives any shit about Palestinians, I just formulated this in a stupid way. Maybe this is a better formulation:
He’s mostly likely going to be even worse than Biden. But while he also won’t give a shit about Palestinians, any random shit could happen that makes him do a u-turn. I don’t think it’s likely but it’s the only good thing I could see coming out of this.
true, I agree! he’s very unpredictable. apologies for coming off as aggressive, I think everyone is running at very high tensions these days.
All good I totally get it, didn’t feel like it was an aggressive comment and you were right to clarify that part.
“will vote against Harris” (read: for trump, because that is how our trash elections work) “Neither side will do the right thing on the genocide…so we will elect the one with the worst position and get a bonus of bringing about all manner of horrible outcomes here at home too!”
Alrighty, it’s your vote. MAGA uses it to make emotionally driven decisions based on ignorance for outcomes that hurt themselves and those around them, it is fair to let these well-meaning clowns join them in that. Our very own blueMAGA. I hope you lose in a mind-shattering crushing defeat, and then Kamala proves you all wrong. I have my doubts on the last bit, but if y’all can be stupid enough to vote for trump, I can be the same to hope for unlikely change (with the benefit of not also supporting suffering here too).
👍
They aren’t voting for Trump, but Claudia De La Crúz and Jill Stein.
Yup every vote that isn’t for Kamala is less votes the other side has to get to win. All for someone that has zero chance. That is voting for trump by proxy. GJ 👍
A vote for Harris is a vote for Trump!
tHE sKy iS grEeN
People who are won’t vote for genocide certainly aren’t going to vote for Trump.
One of two parties will win. Every vote syphoned off of what would normally be blue votes makes that one less red vote needed to win. Functionally turning a blue vote red. That is part of why I assume this is just a maneuver by conservatives more than actual thinking liberals.
Harris has chosen to embrace genocide, for voters that will not vote for genocide, she is impossible to vote for. These aren’t blue votes being lost, this is the blue candidate turning red.
Secondly, liberals are largely loving Kamala and the genocide, it’s typically Leftists who already hate the Dems who are abandoning her entirely.
That would make sense if there were ranked choice voting.
there isn’t, though
Ranked choice will not save anyone, nor is it even going to be established in the US.
It could be if enough people pushed for it, like they should, since it’s objectively better in every way from first past the post, and would actually make doing things like this work.
How does that translate into reality? More people want Medicare For All and legalized weed, and even abortion rights. It isn’t as simple as saying “it could be if enough people pushed for it,” the parties don’t operate on public will.
Do you believe no legislation has ever been passed due to public will?
I believe what drives the direction of the parties is maintaining their position and appeasing their donors. Legislation that fits popular will but goes against the former drives, like RCV, are a fantasy.
Except where it IS implemented… Like legalizing weed, same slow ass path. A few liberal areas do it, slow or scared folks see it is beneficial, it spreads, it becomes a topic at the federal level and has caught on enough that it is just an inevitably…assuming the government doesn’t somehow become christofascist because of some ignorant morons…but that is an edge case.
A few liberal areas do it, slow or scared folks see it is beneficial, it spreads, it becomes a topic at the federal level and has caught on enough that it is just an inevitably
This does not logically follow. Policy is not implemented because it is “popular” or “talked about,” but because it serves a material interest to the corporate donors of the DNC and GOP.
assuming the government doesn’t somehow become christofascist because of some ignorant morons…but that is an edge case.
Is that your analysis of fascism? That it exists because of Chrisitanity, and Christianity exists because someone thought of it?
Fascism is Capitalism in decay. It’s a violent defense mechanism, not a mold that infects people’s minds. America is heading down the fascist path regardless of who is in power because Capitalism is dying.
First bit is what has actually happened. Second bit isn’t “an analysis” and your last paragraph would have Voltare rolling, but also isn’t relevant. Out of morbid curiosity, I’d love to hear your fantasy world path forward for the country.
It benefits the DNC and GOP to let minor implementations of a toothless change pass so that people feel like they are making a differance.
Second bit is absolutely analysis, you claimed fascism happens if the fascists get elected. Where did the fascists come from, and why would they get elected?
As for a path forward, I’m a Communist, revolution is necessary. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.
You should educate yourself by reading The Problem of Political Leadership in the Formation and Development of the Nation and the Modern State in Italy from Gramsci’s Prison Notebooks and studying trasformismo in Italian history instead of infantilizing an entire marginalized group over their justified stance against the system currently genociding their friends and family 👍 trust me, you’ll learn a lot about our current political situation.
Didn’t say it was unjustified. And no.
the stark contrast between the .world version of this post and this one makes me doubt that the lemmyverse has any stamina.
It’s becoming multipolar, with right-wingers on the Lemmy.world side and left wingers on the Lemmy.ml side, and the various instances aligned with each and neither. The Lemmy.world moderators are also Zionists that allow hasbara but censor comments that show the complicity of the Democrats in genocide as “misinformation.”
You mean the reaction (downvotes) in the .world instances, right?
I think the contrast reflects the real diversity of opinions, and not lack of stamina. Of course I am disappointed with the downvotes and the hostile comments to anything that might oppose Harris. But the level of discourse in Lemmy is a lot better than Twitter, FB, etc.
So I’m going to keep posting these to as many communities as I can. :-)
I agree that .world is problematic especially that Zionist “bias” checker bot and their tolerance of hasbara comments & genocide denial. But also I got banned for “racism” at !worldnews@lemmy.ml for saying China is committing genocide against the Uyghurs…
I’d recommend doing a search on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad, or hexbear on that. The only countries that have been pushing this line, are the countries that bomb muslims, and refuse to visit the region.
Muslim countries themselves, and the rest of the world, all of whom have sent delegations, deny that a genocide is occurring.
I know those communities and I don’t share their view on the situation, and it’s really not because I don’t have any connection to China.
So you trust what the ppl bombing arabs have to say, over the arab countries themselves? Why?
Being from a country that is essentially a dictatorship and where rivaling factions have been competing over who gets to govern and who are the good / bad guys depending on whether they’re backed by Russia or the US I came to realize they’re all full of shit.
Whether it’s the USA, UK, Germany, France, Russia, China, Iran, they’re all led by psychopaths who instrumentalize suffering for their own political gain.
I don’t know where you’re getting that bit about Arabs from because in Xinjiang they’re Uyghurs, not Arabs. And just because China poses a much needed counterweight to Western imperialism I won’t ignore that they’re the same murderous psychopaths just with a different agenda.
To me, any kind of nationalism is a cancer and if you ask me, the concept of nations and borders should be abolished, because I haven’t ever seen a functioning nation that is actually for the people instead of a ruling class.
Its more that you have internalized an pessimistic imperialist talking-point: your own country is run by sociopaths, and they tell you that every other country is too (whether they justify it being the natural order of things, realpolitik, or anything else. You should be even more skeptical when US leaders point at all their enemies and call them psychopaths, considering how many innocent people the US has and continues to murder. Essentially this meme:
In reality there are very few countries that exploit others, most want to work together politically and economically to better the lives of their people. Even the poorer capitalist countries, which are the majority, often have earnest leaders who are trying their best to escape the low-wage trap the imperialist countries have forced on them.
I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt but you’re making no sense if you believe that China isn’t an imperialist empire itself. It’s also an ethno-state where Han Chinese are over everyone else and minorities need to assimilate or get rekt. And do I really need to mention that it’s a fucking dictatorship?
They are against the US but that doesn’t make them the good guys. Same ridiculous shit that the West tried to do with people like Navalny, they tried portraying him as hero because he was against Putin when in reality he was another right wing nationalist fuck.
If you really believe one Imperialist is better than the other just because they’re not the US then you’re taking a shortcut, because the logical conclusion has to be to reject the notion of imperialism itself, instead of just Western imperialism.
Damn, that’s fucked up, sounds like the democrats should do something other then support genocidal states if they want that support so desperately.
Yeah, why haven’t there been any Democrat things done by Democrats lately?
This one weird trick will make white libs cry.
