- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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and, overall it would cost about half what we’re paying now as a nation for health care.
And the outcomes would be better.
Doctors would actually spend time with patients instead of jumping through hoops for insurance denials. Yes, their staff handles much of it, but there are insurance issues that they end up having to deal with directly, wasting their time.
Patients could get medical care early on instead of letting medical issues worsen until they become emergencies, which also results in more expensive treatments and worse outcomes
At my last physical my doctor when on a short rant about insurance. Told me that the reason that there is so much burnout and a high suicide rate among medical professionals isn’t due to their primary job function, helping people become healthier, it was due to having to deal with insurance companies bullshit.
It must really suck to be a good hearted doctor in that system. When every incentive is to push unnecessary interventions and you must encounter patients that can’t or won’t accept your help because it would ruin them or their family financially.
Doctors would actually spend time with patients instead of jumping through hoops for insurance denials.
If you think doctors don’t have to spend time jumping through hoops for insurance companies in countries with socialized healthcare I have some bad news for you.
Living in a country with universal health care. Doctors have limited time for each patient. Many people complain about it.
There’s no system where doctors have unlimited time for each patient.
And that doesn’t even count the extra that people are paying for private insurance. How much the government spends per capita (of the whole country) on healthcare is double what other first world countries pay even though in the USA it only covers a third of US citizens.
Won’t anyone think of the poor billionaire shareholders??
And insurance companies add nothing to healthcare. They contribute nothing. They streamline nothing. And THEY are the ones who make your health care decisions for you, NOT your doctor.
Got a back problem that could be easily fixed by surgury? Well screw that, insurance isn’t paying for that. But they’ll be happy to put you on painkillers for the rest of your life so you’ll be stuck in a parasitic relationship where you have pay them forever to afford your pain meds.
They only exist to transfer wealth from sick, financially vulnerable people to the billionaire class.
And it’s also bad science and bad philosophy.
Insurance works on probabilities. They pick the most likely outcome based on old population studies (not current ones - so they lag behind epidemics). This means that if you have a pet alligator, and it bit off your toe, insurance would disbelieve you and would say the accident was most likely from a vehicle or tool, and then wouldn’t treat you for salmonella or other concerns from an alligator bite because that’s unlikely to occur in the general population. Even though that’s literally what happened here.
So the way they practice medicine is stupid and bad. It should also be illegal, because to practice medicine you’re by law suppose to have a doctor patient relationship. I’ve never met the doctors at my insurance company. So how can they prescribe (including deny) treatment for me?
Further, I have privacy concerns with insurance companies as well. I don’t want them to have all my medical information. I don’t want them to code my information in a way that benefits their insurance system but isn’t accurate to my actual diagnosis.
I want to go into a doctor and actually be treated by that fucking doctor.
Remember when they said socialized healthcare stops you from seeing the doctor you want? Well our current system, in all its justice, let’s me see the doctor I want, pay her, and then I can’t get the treatments she recommends because they aren’t approved by an anonymous third doctor at my insurance I didnt choose and never met. Lol. Fml.
I don’t want them to code my information in a way that benefits their insurance system but isn’t accurate to my actual diagnosis.
My fiancee has been dealing with this for like 2 years. She got a relatively simple bloodwork panel done, and the NP who ordered it fucked up the code/paperwork for it by labeling it as something more expensive than it actually was, which resulted in the insurance not covering it, which resulted in a $1k bill for what should have been a $20 test.
The bill was sent to collections, and they were told that the bill was erroneous because the NP fucked up the paperwork. They’re still calling 2 years later. They don’t seem to get the hint that my fiancee is disabled, has no wages, and no way to pay it*, and therefore they ain’t getting shit.
* Fortunately it is within my means to pay for it for her, but she has no wages for them to garnish, they can’t mess with her credit score over it, and so they have no pathway to do any harm for failure to pay. So fuck em.
I have random genetic diagnoses on my chart because my doctor lied to my insurance to get a test approved. I can’t rat her out because I did really need the test but yeah it’s a nightmare
The succinct way to describe it is that every dollar earned in profit by a health insurance company is a dollar that was spent on health care for which no healthcare was delivered. Their profits are literally just inefficiency in the system, and they’re directly incentivized to maximize that inefficiency.
And insurance companies add nothing to healthcare. They contribute nothing.
They give me a pile of paperwork and an illusion of choice. What more could I ask for?
I’m currently fighting a bill because insurance doesn’t like who gave the diagnosis. The diagnosis isn’t wrong, it’s actively being treated, they just think the wrong doctor gave it. Dealing with insurance is a huge pain in the ass for no reason except to enrich the insurance companies. They add no value to society.
This is exactly why Obamacare is absolute trash. It forces you to buy into a failed system or pay monthly penalties. For a healthy individual, it’s cheaper to pay put of pocket when necessary, than monthly dues in addition to your “deductable”.
I showed this to my mom, and her reply was “but that socialism!” And promptly hung up on me.
Some people are so stupid and stubborn that they would rather be bilked by conmen than to actually get the care they need, affordably.
That’s kind of bullshit we’re dealing with.
Don’t try to explain public roads, bridges, dams, water & sewerage, police, fire brigades or the military to her… she might just have an aneurysm.
“so, mom, you’d rather i die than receive affordable health care?”
She’s rich, so all of that will never affect her. But she sure as shit would rather I die and every other one of “the poors” than to pay even one penny more in taxes.
Insurance IS socialism. By definition. The only difference is who holds the money from the group to pay out claims. In one, it’s the government which has an incentive to keep costs low across the board. The other it is a private company trying to make as much profit as possible.
The bullshit part is how many people think socialism is wrong or evil. It’s just an approach where the people work together to provide a service where the focus is the service itself rather than anyone getting rich from the service.
Why is socialism something bad for her?
It’s not. She just thinks it is because she’s been told it’s a dirty word.
US healthcare is extortion
Think of the knock off effects of universal health care beyond paying less.
you would not be tied to a shitty job anymore - your ability to quit and move to another company becomes easier
You could quit your job and start your own company since now you don’t have to worry about medical bankruptcy
Or maybe you live a minimal enough of a life that you could quit your job that you have only because of the health insurance and go do something that is fulfilling to you?
A huge reason that I took the job I have now is because they let me start my health insurance plan asap. It was supposed to be after 3 months but I just asked nice and they didn’t hesitate to agree even without my whole spcheil. I have a wife and a son, at the time my wife was still going through some post pregnancy health issues and my son was going through some stuff that required regular visits. I turned down some cushy jobs solely because they wanted me to wait 3-6 months to be insured, which I get from a business perspective, but what the actual fuck? It took me a while to switch jobs for that reason alone. I guess it’s a good indicator of a company that has common sense/common decency.
I’ve had jobs where you have to wait for 401k but Healthcare has always been covered on day 1.
Last several I’ve jobs had it kick in on the first business day of the next month, and end on the first business day of the month after leaving, so i think it was more of a “this is how our provider has us add and remove people” thing.
Wait is that normal? The last 3 jobs I’ve had had a waiting period of at least a month.
Has been been for me.
Why the waiting time? What’s the risk on their part if they insure you immediately?
I always assumed it had to with whatever cost comes with adding someone to the insurance plan + the cost they’re paying. They want to make sure the person is going to stick around. But to me that just seems like the cost of doing business.
We would be able to track bad products that give us cancer more easily, could sue companies in a class action easier. As it is, you cant sue for cancer you never had diagnosed because you couldnt afford to go in. And also with lead contamination and other heavy metals, and a million other toxins.
Really USA, how does anyone pretend this is OK?
Really USA, how does anyone pretend this is OK?
We pretend a LOT of things are OK.
- School shootings comes to mind.
- laws around what women can do with their own bodies.
- Sacrifice of the environment for industry, all in the name of “jobs”.
- Starvation.
- Politicians and presidents doing obviously illegal stuff and citizens unable to do anything about it.
- American military killing with abandon all over the world.
- Police brutality and systematic violations of our rights, with little to no accountability.
- Our standards for clean food being less than everyone elses.
- Religious supremacy being tolerated, even encouraged. (Fuck your moments of silence, fuck your thoughts and prayers, fuck your pledges of allegience too while we’re at it)
- controlled media.
- Book banning.
- the “war” on drugs when other methods would have been much more effective.
- whistleblower protections dismantled.
- violence against protesters, and the existence of “protest zones” which disallows protests entirely in most areas.
- continual threats of violence and domestic terrorism by the political right, never with any accountability.
- oppression of anyone who says they are anti-fascist (antifa).
- a political system complteely captured by bribery and foreign interests, with ~1% correlation to what citizens want. There is no representation in “representitive democracy” here. Its all a big joke. We’re barely even a “republic” anymore.
And its not all republicans doing it-- although much more them than the dems-- although the dems are sliding really far rightward pretty quickly and its hard to see how it ever will be allowed to go back left.
Its not OK and we need to nationalize healthcare now. But much of that above graph is also associated with the obesity epedemic and the nutritional collapse (or caloric inflation) of the western diet. Government definitely has a role in that, but its much trickier than obliterating the medical insurance industry (which of course is also tricky).
All but one Western countries are in those normal countries to the left of the graph.
Quick Google suggests healthcare costs for obese people are <50% higher than non-obese and the US has 15-30% more obesity than these countries. So maybe 15% at most of the 100% higher cost per capita of healthcare is obesity related. The killer for me for that hypothesis is that within the set of countries with normal healthcare costs, there’s huge variation in obesity (10% in France to 30%in ireland) with limited variation in cost.
Maybe the life expectancy side does have more to do with obesity?
Freedom isn’t free 😤😤😤
When I was in grad school, I went to a conference in Portugal. One of the other American grad students slipped on a paving stone and bust his leg. It wasn’t that bad, but he was freaking out because he had no idea how European insurance worked and he was afraid he’d be in serious debt. Everyone at the hospital thought that was hilarious. Why would getting hurt put you in debt? They patched him up for no charge. In theory he could have gone to some office and made a modest payment, but nobody was going to actually make him do that.
It’s got to end soon, or we’re well screwed.
My insurance payment + my jobs contribution (can’t say whether or not they lie on the form about their share) is over a thousand per month. And I still have co-pays and shit that isn’t covered. I’ve had a couple of X-rays and and a sling this year. I’m probably out another $2k on top of my insurance. It would be much cheaper for me to pay out of pocket and save the difference for a rainy day.
Fuck the entire insurance industry.
And the concept of tying it to employment is not only idiotic and nonsensical, but actually pretty devious.
I live in Sweden, had a surgery for a back problem. From first consultation to surgery 5 weeks. Total cost: $50, that includes surgery, prescribed meds, food while admitted.
May I ask what the money paid for exactly? Here in Spain it’s only meds that we would pay for (and not even if you’re low income and entitled to government money), everything else is 100 % free
As usual with those sorts of memes, the numbers are completely wrong. European nations spend around 11-12% of GDP on healthcare vs about 17% for the US. So you’d likely pay significantly less (about 30% less) with a similar public healthcare system, but far more than this pic pretends.
Remember kids, don’t believe everything you see on the internet.
US GDP is much higher than most (all?) European nations. California, on its own, is the fifth (at least the last time I looked) largest GDP in the world when compared to nations.
The US also has a massive population, which means a much larger insurance pool, which means the risk is spread out over a much larger swathe of people (and ethnicities, lifestyles, etc.).
So I’m not going to say this pic is accurate, as I have no actual numbers on this… But I also don’t think it’s fair to assume that it will cost the same % of GDP as nations that are a fraction of our size (and are often nearly homogeneous population-wise).
US GDP is much higher than most (all?) European nations.
And as you accurately pointed out, US population is also higher, and have different costs of living. Which is why we compare countries in % of GDP and not in raw dollars spent nationwide, which would make no sense at all.
The US also has a massive population, which means a much larger insurance pool, which means the risk is spread out over a much larger swathe of people (and ethnicities, lifestyles, etc.).
Doesn’t make any difference when you go over a few million people (or possibly much less)
So I’m not going to say this pic is accurate, as I have no actual numbers on this
Well I do, and this pic is clearly bullshit.
Just because you like the message doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to point out obvious lies.
Well yeah but percentage of GDP is just the total spent. The point is that the USA relies primarily on employers paying for the insurance (through a pay cut) whereas in the EU it is generally subsidised with taxes. Which, if you tax fairly, means that the cost of healthcare is better for the average worker (e.g more based on how much any individual earns)
The point is that the USA relies primarily on employers paying for the insurance (through a pay cut) whereas in the EU it is generally subsidised with taxes.
This is a huge misconception. In the EU it’s also funded by the employers, the difference is that it’s usually mandatory (a tax taken out of the paycheck at the employer level) and also typically goes into a governement-run insurance system (ie the British NHS or the French sécu).
Ultimately it’s always people who pay for health care, because companies are just legal entities. The difference is how it’s organized and how much it cost.
Plus it also means that the government has an actual incentive to keep the insurance companies honest
“30% less” 😂 US GDP (it said % of pay, but let’s play your game) per capita is 1.5x or more European countries, so try at least 50% less. It’s a meme, it’s not meant to be accurate, but if you’re going to be a pedant at least be right.
Not to mention the lower cost is like 3rd on the list of reasons why public health care is amazing. Why you our here shilling for big business pal?
It’s a meme, it’s not meant to be accurate
That’s what every boomer on FB propagating fake news about immigrants eating pets also say. Just because it’s a picture means outright lying is okay. (and if it was lying in the other political direction, you’d likely be the first calling bullshit)
Why you our here shilling for big business pal?
Ah yes because everyone who isn’t into lying is “shilling for big business”? Life must be simple in your head. Maybe some people think the truth matters more then coddling their feeling?
So when the meme was wrong about 5% vs 20% it was “outright lying” but when you were shown to be wrong about your 30% you just continue on your high horse. Cool beans.
Not a political issue for me anymore thank goodness. Lived in the US for a while but very glad that public health is available for everyone where I live now (as is literally everyone else I know).
I mean private healthcare is strictly worse for everyone except business owners (and doctors without morals I guess). So that’s my best guess at your motivation, but please correct me. Why?
but when you were shown to be wrong about your 30%
You showed nothing. Both the US and Europe mostly rely on making the employer pay, though in Europe it’s typically mandatory and sent to a national system rather than the employer deciding by itself (or not) to pay for a private insurer for varying level of coverage. So there’s just no way the US employers pay 300% more for a system which is “only” 50% more costly.
(also co-pays are fairly standard everywhere in Europe, to avoid abuses)
So that’s my best guess at your motivation, but please correct me. Why?
My motivation is fighting misinformation. Just because the misinformation comes from the side you support doesn’t mean you should ignore it. In this case someone just made up shock numbers to get engagement and clicks, and that’s not how you support a sound health care policy.
OK cool, well if “someone is wrong on this Internet” is more important to you than making a case for a better health are system (that I note you have spent 0 energy on) I think I’m done. Thanks for the entertainment of “$5k per person is 30% cheaper than $10k” though, that was a good one.
if “someone is wrong on this Internet” is more important to you
If you think misinformation and propaganda is “someone being wrong on the internet” you are clearly a lost cause. Hope you enjoy the troll farms!
$5k per person is 30% cheaper than $10k”
Never wrote such a thing. Good strawman.
“As usual with those sorts of memes, the numbers are completely wrong. European nations spend around 11-12% of GDP on healthcare vs about 17% for the US. So you’d likely pay significantly less (about 30% less)”
Dis you?
The US Healthcare system is meant to police disability, because we live in a giant work camp. That’s its whole function.
Accurate portrayal of Joe Lieberman in that pic. Didn’t feel bad when that dude died. The cherry on top would have been if he’d had tons of medical debt when he went, but I’m sure he still had million in the bank from all that lobby loot.
Fuckingcapitalists
No copays is not necessarily true.
Back in Australia it was a flat $35 for a PCP visit. A $35 office visit copay with 100% coverage and no deductible is functionally the same.
Our healthcare here in the US is a brutal costly joke. It instantly disproves any claims that our leaders make to care about the welfare of US citizens.
TL;DR: AU isn’t a good model to base change off. Expensive and scammy.
Not sure what a PCP is, but before I left AU earlier this year, my GP visits were ~AU$100 with a $40 rebate. Private healthcare cannot cover the $60 gap by law, along with a host of other specialists and scans. It felt like a massive scam to have private health. Yes there are free clinics you can go to (“Bulk Billing”), but in my experience because they were always overworked and understaffed, the standard of care wasn’t as good. Plus it was hard to see the same doctor regularly, so you waste more of everyone’s time going over your medical history.
Compare that to Germany, I decided to go with public health here, which comes directly out of my paycheque. It’s expensive, but I don’t see that money and I can go to basically any (English speaking) doctor here, pay nothing for the appointment, and prescriptions are 5 or 10€ (only had one so far, can’t remember the exact cost). Standard of care feels much more in line with the private care of AU. I know there are some scans and blood tests I may need to pay for, but nothing feels scammy so far.
Japan is also 30% due at time of service, though prices are nothing like the US (that 30% also drops in retirement age). People can and often do get some kind of private insurance, usually bundled with their life insurance, to cover certain life-altering events. I imagine there’s some sort of private health insurance like US folks would think of, but I don’t know anyone who carries it. One can do certain procedures off insurance and pay (still cheaper than US prices) here as well if they want.
This could probably be paid in full by lowering military budget by a tiny fraction.
We would save about 45% of what we pay now. We could increase the military budget. Universal healthcare literally pays for itself.
The billionaires in the health industry don’t see it that way and guess who gets to legally bribe our politicians to keep it that way.
