Most Westerners already hate communists and carry the grudge against the USSR. Anarchists don’t really deviate too much from some generic Westerner. At best, they uphold people like John Brown or support Spanish syndicalists liquidating the clergy during the Spanish Civil War. But in terms of what faction/state/org to support, I honestly don’t see a whole lot of difference between an anarchist and some progressive liberal. Their disagreement comes from tactics and ultimate goal, but they still support and oppose the same people in the end.

Seriously, what faction do anarchists support that someone who is a member of the US Green Party wouldn’t support? Yes, anarchists think voting is cringe, but your average US progressive isn’t going to oppose the Zapatistas. If you explain Kronstadt to your average US progressive, how many of them would support Trotsky crushing the rebellion with the Red Army over the striking sailors like the way anarchists do? As far as history is concerned, you could pretty much explain every single disagreement communists and anarchists have to a progressive liberal, and the progressive liberal will almost always side with the anarchist. I honestly can’t think of a single instance where the progressive would go, “Okay, you anarkiddies are being cringe. The tankies have a point.”

This post is devoid of dialectics.

This isn’t a one-way “Anarchists learn to hate state communists” relationship, but state communists also learn to hate Anarchists. Their rivalry and history fuels the distrust in one-another.

History has more than enough examples of Anarchists being fucked up by state communists, and conversely many examples of Anarchists rebelling against state communists. In turn, both are distrusting and crack down on support for the other.

If you truly want to engage with anarchists in a constructive fashion, and appreciate the political history of anarchism properly, you have to drop this idea that one side “started it” or one side is “taught” to hate the other. It’s clear from this post that you’re already arguing from the perspective that one side is irrationally attacking the other, despite doing that yourself.

There is value and important knowledge from most if not all socialist ideologies, and if anything the synthesis of movements is exactly how history is moved forward and how we impose a new order of resistance against the capitalist class.

I’m exhausted but I’ll try and take a swing at this, speaking as a long-term ex-anarchist. Note that I can only speak for myself but these are the trends I observed and a lot of this is exactly what I experienced.

So in transitioning from progressive liberal to the radical left, it’s basically a rite of passage to identify all the ills and the egregious excesses of the government and corporations. I think this is not only valid but it’s also extremely important.

The problem that emerges is that anarchists and LibSocs can fall into a trap of universalising this very valid skepticism to expand to all forms of hierarchy that have existed and will ever exist.

This is going to sound uncharitable but it’s really not intended to be this way but I see a deep form of liberal hegemony as being not a positive form of hegemonic ideology but a negative form of it. Let me explain: the USSR established its own cultural hegemony. It was very much a positive cultural hegemony: this is who we are, this is how we act, this is the future we are striving to achieve etc. etc. You absolutely see this in Soviet art and film and propaganda.

The negative form of cultural hegemony that I understand liberalism to mostly rely upon, especially in a post-Gilded Age era or a neoliberal era or wherever you want to draw that line, is epitomised by Francis Fukuyama’s pronouncement about arriving at the end of history; this wasn’t a positive proclamation but rather it was a negation of the future, of the need to strive for a better world, of the demand to be better. Instead it was essentially an attack on and an erasure of aspirations.

This is also seen on a small scale with people demonstrating antipathy towards unionism; “they’re all corrupt”, “they used to be important in the past but there’s no use for unions anymore”, “there’s no point joining a union because I’ll just get fired or management will close this branch down if we all unionise”. That sort of thing. It’s also seen in the shadow cast by this plethora of pseudo-choice we are offered and, forgive me for invoking Horkheimer & Adorno but, the pseudo-individuality inherent to this developed form of capitalism we exist under. There’s no point boycotting because how do you avoid consooming products from one of the two or three oligopolistic companies that have cornered a market? Why bother attempting to divest from BlackRock when they already own everything? Why bother protesting against war when we know the government is going to ignore us and prosecute it anyway? etc.

So this negative form of ideology or liberal cultural hegemony tends to inculcate the belief in LibSocs and anarchists that the best we can really achieve is abolition of the current state of affairs and not the construction of a positive project to bring about the revolution.

This is where I take issue with Audre Lorde, or at least the way that people quote her and what this is used in service of. She is absolutely right that you cannot dismantle patriarchy with patriarchy or that white supremacy will not be dismantled by a different form of racial supremacy. I think the distortion of Lorde comes with people thinking that this quote is in service of abstaining from using some of the most valuable tools available to us; you cannot hug the violence out of the bourgeois state no matter how hard you try (just ask the hippies). But at the same time I think we need to be cautious about how far we take this message; people can arrive at pacifism simply because the bourgeois state uses war and violence, if you took this to the the point of absurdity you could imagine people rejecting construction itself or maybe even hammers because infrastructure has been used to enact genocide and land theft and vast exploitation through colonialism and imperialism in so, so many countries. Heck, hammers have been used for DV and assault so you wouldn’t want to taint yourself by benefitting directly from that instrument of violence, would you?

But it’s very easy to slip into a reductive or reflexive rejection of things like the state simply because most states have historically been dogshit. If you look exclusively at the west from the advent of feudalism to today, it’s basically all of them.

This is where anarchists tend to develop the basis of a quite bitter ideological distinction from communists, although obviously this varies in degree depending on what sort of anarchist we’re talking about here. (I’ll try to remember to circle back on this negative urge and how it provides a degree of… I guess ideological comfort or safety for anarchists once I’ve finished the other parts of this comment.)

The other factors are a disagreement on the pace of the post-revolution construction period (which likewise comes from the difference between materialists orienting themselves to addressing material conditions and working to resolve contradictions and anarchists who mostly prefer abolition as the means to address these issues) and the other one is that anarchists tend to be exposed to convenient historical narratives that are overly reductive if not downright anaemic.

So for the pace of the post-revolution construction, most anarchists expect a very swift transitional phase - the abolition of capitalism, often the abolition of markets themselves, prison abolition, and all sorts of other things to establish a more-or-less horizontal or low/zero hierarchy society. Again this depends on the different types of anarchist in question but to put it simply they tend to believe that post-revolution you knock all or most of it down, then establish a government or council of sorts (which again varies) and you call it good.

So from that perspective, communists get into power and instead of following what anarchists believe to be the correct path, instead communists go completely the wrong way and even start building up more state than existed under the Tsardom, for example. With this in mind I think it’s easy enough to understand why they perceive this to be a betrayal of principles and of the revolution.

The last thing I want to touch on is the historical narratives. Anarchists have a tendency to share a distorted perspective on historical moments; the communists betrayed the anarchists in the Spanish Civil, the Bolsheviks stabbed the Black Army of Makhnovia in the back, occasionally you’ll hear discussion of the KPAM likewise being crushed by the Soviets (although not very often tbh).

All three are actually very complicated topics and there’s a lot to cover with them but in broad brushstrokes the narrative is that the communists were the aggressor and that they opted not to leave the anarchists alone to do their thing because they wanted to crush the true revolution. I disagree with this narrative these days, although I didn’t always disagree with it.

There’s a really good article by Jones Manoel on this sort of preference for martyrdom-over-statecraft mentality here. While he only discusses western Marxists, it definitely applies to a lot of anarchists and LibSocs. I think that Manoel simply doesn’t regard the latter two as worth addressing though.

So we’ve got the martyrdom and purity fetish for the immaculate revolution covered there. Last of all to circle back around to the ideological comfort of the negative, I’ve seen plenty of anarchists do this and I have definitely been guilty of doing this myself - by not supporting or critically supporting any but the briefest attempts at revolution (and then only maybe 3 or so of those), you can create a rhetorical and ideological detachment from the real world attempts. You don’t have to engage or defend anything, you can just reflexively dismiss things as being statist or hierarchical or authoritarian and thus you don’t have to grapple with the reality of their circumstances or to consider what would be a better way of resolving the contradictions or moving forwards with the project. “You committed the sin of statism? Then I can wash my hands of you and that’s that.”

This is alluring because it’s a simple rubric and you don’t need to wrestle with the reality of things. To put this into an analogy that’s probably more relatable, imagine a Marxist who refuses to engage in the ol’ agitate/educate/organise because “liberals are social fascists and counterrevolutionary - I’m not gonna waste my time befriending my enemies!”

On the face of it, there’s nothing false in that statement. But the application of this line of thinking absolves this Marxist from needing to do any of the hard work because they have created a rhetorical and ideological detachment from the most important task that a revolutionary faces and so by abdicating from this duty they never have to put in any effort and they never have to deal with fuckups and failures and addressing their own inadequacies.

That’s a pretty close match to this urge that exists in a lot of anarchists and it’s also why they can invest a lot into their grudge against communists, because ultimately the other option is to engage in the hard work of listening and learning and working with/working on the “authoritarians”.

Obviously all of this is my vain attempt at brevity so I didn’t cover the broad terrain of different ideology tendencies within anarchism and I’m talking specifically about the anarchists who really bear a grudge against communists. Plenty of anarchists do not begrduge communists and are very willing to work with them and to engage with them (or to roll up their sleeves and engage in the difficult work of educating, agitating, organising as well as grappling with the historical realities fafed by revolutions) so I haven’t given consideration to this cohort of anarchists because it’s beyond the scope of the question, although if I gave the impression that what I’ve said is true for all anarchists then that’s on me.

It’s ingrained into every westerner upon birth

I think AssortedBiscuits answered your question in the first couple sentences of their comment:

Most Westerners already hate communists and carry the grudge against the USSR. Anarchists don’t really deviate too much from some generic Westerner.

It’s really not any deeper than that. There’s no need or reason to single out anarchists from any other average westerner when analyzing the source of animosity for the USSR because the answer is going to be the same whether you’re talking about chuds, liberals, or anarchists. Even the non-western anarchists who hold a grudge against the USSR, the answer is probably still the same just because of the prevalence of western cultural hegemony all over the world. In your edit, you specify:

I’m curious about what information sources - mentors, friends, books, TV, cultural osmosis, conveys that information to people. Where do individuals encounter this information and how does it become important to them.

But the answer to that is the same information sources you yourself were probably exposed to early on. It’s all the same shit we’re steeped in, the ubiquity of anti-communism throughout western culture. Animal Farm and 1984 were required reading for me in junior high and high school respectively. The class discussions around these books were centered around teaching us that the USSR was corrupt, oppressive, and that these communist ideals that may sound like good ideas will always and invariably lead to “authoritarianism” and “totalitarian dictatorships” like the Soviet Union. Everyone absorbs that shit young, even the people who might later go on to question the truth of what they were taught, like anarchists.

You say

Newly minted Anarchists have to learn to hate Lenin and Stalin and whoever else they have a grudge against.

But no they don’t. Not as newly-minted anarchists anyway. That brainworm software was already installed long ago before they became anarchists. A major part of becoming a leftist is going through a process of uninstalling all that brainworm malware. Anarchists who still hate the Soviet Union are people who have been successful at uninstalling much of the brainworm malware, it’s just that they haven’t completed the process by uninstalling the anti-Soviet or anti-“tankie” worms… yet. And I say all this as someone who long considered themself an anarchist.

Go browse /r/196 for 30 minutes. It might not answer your question, but it will probably teach you a lot about where online western leftists that call themselves anarchists are at.

E: I’ll elaborate so that this doesn’t come across as vague sectarianism. A lot of this is just kids transmitting vague vibes to other kids who are just learning that there’s this entire world of politics that isn’t just libs vs chuds. For the most part, it’s scary, and if they belong to any marginalized groups at all, they probably really really want to avoid anything remotely fascist. Therefore it doesn’t take long at all for them to encounter the logic that goes something like

“Marxist-leninists are just as problematic as fascists because Lenin and Stalin did x thing to y minority”

Can they afford to be skeptical of that? Can they afford to go have a serious look to dispel the lie there, when in their minds, going into ML communities is essentially the same as going to a fascist community?

Naturally, it doesn’t take much convincing, your buddies who are also just very young and naive tell you who they don’t trust and you take their word for it because it’s just a dangerous environment everywhere, in general. Why trust anyone?

I still recommend you take a look and browse some comment sections for any post that’s remotely political. Keep in mind they’re all very young, many are queer, and they’re very nervous. It’s sad because it obviously would be better if they understood that the ‘tankies’ they talk about want to protect them just as much as even the most ideologically pure anarchist. But they’re not ready to take our word for it for some understandable reasons and some very bad ones too.

There was no red scare for anarchism, so it’s much easier to go from liberal -> anarchist than it is to go liberal -> communist. If you take the former route, the propaganda around communism never truly fads. Also doesn’t help that anarchists are typically the most active block of organizers/protestors/activists in the states. Communist orgs a lot of the time are just glorified book clubs, if you want to feed people, build bus benches, do a coat drive, counter-protest police, or whatever else, the people who are often at the forefront of this are anarchists. There is absolutely an image of the “academic communist” too concerned this theory specifics and sectarian lines to do any real action. This stereotype is rooted in some level of truth. I became disillusioned with anarchism, remaining steadfast that a vanguard party is key to true revolutionary change, yet in my own circles and among those I organize with, the communists in that camp simply do not organize, they do not. If you need advice on what book to read? They are the people to go to. If you need advice on mobilizing your neighborhood? You go to the anarchists. When I speak with communists I’m met with defeatism and often, an inflated sense of self-superiority. What is theory without practice? and to the anarchists: What is practice without theory?

It wasn’t always this way, and it doesn’t have to be this way. In the States there’s no doubt that our synthesis of theory and material conditions will be a blend of both camps.

They arrive as radicalized liberals who already “know” how bad communism is, and anarchism seems to offer a kind of 3rd way (enlightened centrism?) that rejects the apparatus of the state. After that, they either don’t think much more about it and just get to work, or they read a bunch of history and grind that axe. Or they change their mind :)

As a gentle bit of self-crit, here is a Hexbear Search of “anarchist” comments sorted by controversial. This was from before the downvote was removed, so it’s mostly ancient history. In all of our defense, I see this pattern in every leftist space. It’s in the air. There is a tacit enmity between the two camps that goes all the way back to Marx and Bakunin, reinforced by a long sorrowful history of mutual bloodshed. We pass on this trauma one microaggression at a time. It becomes learned behavior.

This clash is inevitable, because both camps represent a Thesis-Antithesis that needs to work itself into a Synthesis. Anarchists work from the bottom-up carefully because they are concerned with maintaining legitimacy in a context of many different/opposing interests. Leninists work from the top-down to (cross-)organize into large political blocks because they are concerned with effectiveness in a context of countering other large politically organized blocks. To a Leninist Anarchist spaces look chaotic and slow, while to an Anarchist Leninist spaces look stifling and coercive. We need both; effectiveness without legitimacy destroys itself, and legitimacy without effectiveness goes nowhere. The path towards that Synthesis starts with burying hatchets. A lot of our bad blood comes from conflicts that no longer exist in living memory and are not worth fighting over today.

74 comments 65 upbears oh no what have i done : (

As an ancom couple of maybe trite observations from the POV of modern anarchists rather than rehashing centuries old debates:

Many anarchists are deeply unserious people about actual politics and building a society. The things that many of them like about anarchism are this misleading idea of “no rules”, they are effectively antisocial or better crystalize the meaning anti-society.

There are anarchist tendencies that effectively nurture their preconceived notions about the background unsatisfaction most people have with their lot in life. Tendencies like anarcho-egoists, anprims, etc. that allow people to romanticize their own feelings.

Lastly very few anarchists tend to understand what anarchism is, just like many people fail to understand what communism is. Anarchism in it’s purest form is about finding the fairest way of building a collective society while respecting everyone as individuals. It is philosophically an ideology that is trying to find the philosophical and practical underpinnings of coalescing individualist and collectivist into one comprehensive view in a bottom up fashion. A nice metaphor for this is that in physics many people are trying to unite classical physics with quantum mechanics to create a comprehensive theory of physics, rather than two separate fields of study. Anarchists want their societies to have unconcerned unanimous support of how the society is governed. Anarchists are not willing to compromise a their platforms. So that makes it difficult to work through problems that other political movements can take “shortcuts” in. In short if you think about this through the lens of standard democratic centralism, Anarchists do not accept a rule of simple majority, they will only accept unanimous consent.

Anarchists that do not understand this, typically hate communists reflexively depending on their platform or who they hang out with. Anarchists that do understand this, typically hate communists due to communism’s prescribed nature of the problem and solution coupled with the tendency for socialist societies who attempted to build communism to prioritize their implementation at the cost of everything else, as well as failure of communist countries to truly liberate certain groups and use them as political pawns when its expedient.

I think a lot of this hate comes from the reality of the development of humanity in the 20th century. The second industrial revolution essentially forced all developing countries of the time into societies that were in practice extremely hierarchical, extremely parochial, and extremely focused on extracting production of out of individuals. Anarchists see this as a negative development in both the liberal and socialist worlds, and due to street cred of anarchism as the “no rules” punk philosophy Western anarchists, many of whom that have never known hunger or poverty relative to their global South or Eastern European counter parts, typically see liberals as the less worse choice because capitalist liberalization did allow for more individualism at it’s apex.

Lastly there is a real history of bad blood between the primary standard bearers of socialism in the USSR and anarchists. The bolsheviks regardless of the morality or solidarity of their actions were some of the best political operators of the 20th century. They were able to take a rump committee of a besieged and nascent political movement and transform it into a global political powerhouse. Some of the best political operators in the world worked on Bolshevik standards, Lenin, Stalin, Kim, Tito, Sankara, Mao initially and (I’m gonna get flack for this but it’s fucking true because of what he was able to fucking pull off politically if you actually read history) Ben-Gurion. The problem is bolshevism is ruthless, and it cannot stand competition. It must be the only voice in the room. That’s how it works, that’s why it was effective. And in that efficacy lays the simple fact that Bolsheviks betrayed the largest anarchist organization during the Russian revolution.

Makhnovshchina was the pinnacle of anarchist success on the world stage. Their lands were ruled by their people. They had repelled not only German colonists but the German backed puppet regimes spouting racist and cosplay style Ukrainian Nationalism They fought a multi-front war between the Whites and the Reds. To the point where they beat back the Whites to an unfavorable position in the East and that the Reds were so depleted they had no choice but to ally with Makhno. The Black army over performed as a military force and Makhnovshchina over performed as a society forged in war time, that never had to implement war communism and forced conscription. And for all of this the Bolsheviks rewarded them by baiting them out of position under the guise of being allies, and stabbing them in the back, and liquidating all their hard work. Many bitter anarchists read this history, the success of Marxist-Lenninism as the strangulation of anarchism in its crib.

My experience has been with comrades who were good organizers but never really well read. They eventually decide to make an effort and go onto Reddit to find what theory they should be reading if they’re an anarchist. (Reversing the order of operations in my opinion). They get really into reading about heroic historical figures and their context-specofic grudges from a hundred years ago and fail to really see the bigger picture as a result.

I think most self identified anarchist these days don’t arrive at anarchism because of some deep introspective journey. They leap into it based on inherent biases against ML states. They learn all about the evils of capitalism and decided to be against it but still believe all the bullshit about the USSR and China. I don’t think it’s people being educated or pushed to be anti-communist more not being pushed to actually study communism and look at AES critically through it’s own lense. In which case they are going to default the cultural western view of seeing them as totalitarian and therefore evil. They just sort of default to it as it feels right.

Westerners: “I get to claim to be radical and against everything I don’t like and still not have an actually defend any flawed history? Great!”

The subject takes pride in not having any relationship with the entire historic concrete movement of the working class socialist and liberation revolutions. They take pride in not having any theoretical or political connection to the revolutions in China, Russia, Korea, Vietnam, Algeria, Mozambique and Angola. They are, instead, proud of the supposed purity that their theory is not contaminated by the hardship of exercising power, by the contradictions of historical processes. Being pure is what provokes this narcissistic orgasm. This purity is what makes them feel superior.

from Western Marxism, the Fetish for Defeat, and Christian Culture by Jones Manoel

Many westerners come to socialism not out of necessity, but out of disillusionment. We are raised with the idea that Liberal Democracy is the best system of political expression humanity has devised. When confronted with the reality of its shortcomings, rather than narrowly discard liberalism or electoralism, the western anti-capitalist tends to draw sweeping conclusions about the inadequacy of all existing systems. Curiously, though it would at first seem that such denunciations are more principled and severe, they are in fact more compatible with existing and widespread beliefs about the supremacy of the western system. That is to say, when a Marxist-Leninist asserts the superiority of existing socialist experiments, they are directly challenging the idea that westerners are at the forefront of political development. By contrast, the assertions from anarchists and social democrats that we need to build a more utopian future out of our current apex are compatible not only with each other, as discussed earlier, but also do not really offend bourgeois society at large. They in fact end up not sounding too different from the arch-imperialist Winston Churchill holding forth on how ours is the worst system, except for all the others which have been tried. Western chauvinists, consciously or unconsciously, struggle with the idea that they should study and humbly take lessons from the imperial periphery. [15] It is much easier for the chauvinist, psychologically, to position oneself as at the very front of a new vanguard.

from Why Marxism?