News outlets are generally graded by their historical reputabilitiy. If you find yourself continuously fact checking it, maybe consider following a better news outlet (even if they publish more “boring” stories that aren’t as “up to date”): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
I would also love to see a better place for keeping news outlets accountable for their bad publishing actions. Wikipedia does, but it happens on discussion pages and it relies on human editors who know where those discussions happened to string it together
I don’t even know what a NAFO is but sure. Everyone but you is a robot. Is reality even real? Do the snozberries taste like snozberries? Are we really breathing or is the air forcing us to live?
If you have evidence of them lying, you’re more than welcome to submit that on the discussion pages. I don’t know which articles you’re referring to, but given my historical knowledge of wars in the Middle-East, they likely sourced US mouthpieces or analysts, rather than making the claims themself
You’ll find “common knowledge” is surprisingly hard to prove when you’re wrong. Wikipedia is a big place, if you can find concrete evidence of NYT lying, you can do a lot of reputational damage to them (even as so far as getting them removed as an acceptable source)
Journalists have one job: produce revenue one way or another. Informing the public of factual or fictional events is a byproduct of running this business.
It’s a balance to hit in article sharing communities too.
Too much leniency, and you just end up with people posting DMG articles, and tiny un-sourced blogs with snazzy titles.
Too tough, and you end up spending your entire life justifying why various borderline sources are not suitable.
[…] Too much leniency, and you just end up with people posting […] tiny un-sourced blogs with snazzy titles. […]
Imo, in a perfect world, if everyone cited their sources, there would be a perfect chain of sources that leads directly to the original. If one collectively cited source was found to be inaccurate, then, logically, all connected references would be nullified.
News outlets are generally graded by their historical reputabilitiy. […]
While that’s good data to have, I think that any claims should be immediately verifiable. I think it’s a disservice to the truth and public discourse to rely on appeals to authority for trust in one’s published news. Imo, an argument is either sound or unsound — an atomic claim is either accurate or inaccurate.
Hard to believe that when I’ve seen many of the “historically reputable” sources on that list flagrantly lying and spreading pro genocide props over the past 13 months
Being pro genocide is an opinion technically. If you have a “flagrant lie”, however, please post it. There was another wanker in the thread who claimed equal grand claims of lies but failed to come up with a link showing an actual lie
Well good. Luck with that, but my experience trying to get changes through on Wikipedia is that it just takes one person with an agenda to stubbornly go “nuh-uh” and there nothing you can do about it
I used to edit Wikipedia for a long time, so I know what you’re saying - but if you’re actually correct, you’ll generally win (may require pinging some other people who know you to come in to mediate)
So I read through this, and unfortunately there’s nothing concrete. Every error has been corrected, and the errors that remain are opinion pieces which can’t be listed as a source on Wikipedia. Due to WP:RECENT, this means no place where Wikipedia refers to the New York Times as a source will be asserting incorrect information.
This probably isn’t the response you want, but that’s the truth about their reporting.
Edit: If you still want to try and bring it up, this is what I had written in my draft:
The following article has been brought to my attention:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13537121.2024.2394292#abstractWhile the issues raised in this paper tend to focus on bias, and factual errors were later corrected in many cases (which should be suffice due to WP:RECENT), the section of "Misquoting Israeli leaders" refers to multiple errors in reporting from the NewYorkTimes that remain uncorrected.
~~~~
(This is before I noticed the uncorrected parts are Opinion pieces, so I stopped)
[…] I would also love to see a better place for keeping news outlets accountable for their bad publishing actions. […]
It’s not immediately clear to me what you mean. Are you referring to increased transparency when a news outlet makes a mistake? Are you referring to legal action? Are you referring to something else?
News outlets are generally graded by their historical reputabilitiy. If you find yourself continuously fact checking it, maybe consider following a better news outlet (even if they publish more “boring” stories that aren’t as “up to date”): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources
I would also love to see a better place for keeping news outlets accountable for their bad publishing actions. Wikipedia does, but it happens on discussion pages and it relies on human editors who know where those discussions happened to string it together
Was about to post this list, it’s a very good overall quick reference. It correctly identifies most of the tabloids posing as “real” newspapers, too.
LoL. I guess manufacturing consent for wars does absolutely nothing to harm their credibility. This list is dogshit.
The New York Times has been a full-throated government mouthpiece since at least 9/11. At this point, Teen Vogue has more credibility.
This person thinks that Ukraine invaded Russia, FYI.
NAFO bot has arrived to defend the military industrial complex with lies. Right on schedule.
I don’t even know what a NAFO is but sure. Everyone but you is a robot. Is reality even real? Do the snozberries taste like snozberries? Are we really breathing or is the air forcing us to live?
Yes, everyone who’s on here defending western imperialism is either a bot or propagandized to hell. Either one is fair to write off.
Beep boop
Yeah, but that doesn’t make them wrong and the NYT
Nice catch of their strawman 😉
If you have evidence of them lying, you’re more than welcome to submit that on the discussion pages. I don’t know which articles you’re referring to, but given my historical knowledge of wars in the Middle-East, they likely sourced US mouthpieces or analysts, rather than making the claims themself
LoL. Are people unaware of the NYT’s culpability?
Acting as a stenographer for the state isn’t “journalism.”
He asked for sources and you just act superior and yet didn’t provide sources.
The sources
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_New_York_Times_controversies
Take those with necessary salt and tequila if wanted. One of them is literally “nyt is mean to apartheid musk”
If I tell him the sky is blue, and he asked for a source, am I obligated to provide that as well?
I’m not going to play along with bad faith questioning of common knowledge.
You’ll find “common knowledge” is surprisingly hard to prove when you’re wrong. Wikipedia is a big place, if you can find concrete evidence of NYT lying, you can do a lot of reputational damage to them (even as so far as getting them removed as an acceptable source)
Seeing a lot of bots defend Wikipedia the past couple months. Is that because it’s so easily manipulated by y’all?
Ah yes, beep boop
How are you determining that they are bots? Would you, by chance, have any examples?
Imo, while not exactly proper science, a quick source for such a claim could be a simple color photo of the sky.
Leaving aside the “bad faith questioning” component, how would you handle requests for proof of what you are calling “common knowledge” in general?
That is a good recipe for sneaking lies into the newspaper. Journalists should just be doing their job.
Journalists have one job: produce revenue one way or another. Informing the public of factual or fictional events is a byproduct of running this business.
Some definitely do that
This is a cynical take that would be disputed by the people you are denigrating.
Agreed. Imo, if the journalists simply cited their claims, then this question of whether its safe to appeal to authority wouldn’t need to be asked.
It’s a balance to hit in article sharing communities too.
Too much leniency, and you just end up with people posting DMG articles, and tiny un-sourced blogs with snazzy titles.
Too tough, and you end up spending your entire life justifying why various borderline sources are not suitable.
DMG articles?
I’m guessing Dungeon Master’s Guide
Yep. Damn Wizards infiltrated the UK commercial media a decade ago, and they never left.
Imo, in a perfect world, if everyone cited their sources, there would be a perfect chain of sources that leads directly to the original. If one collectively cited source was found to be inaccurate, then, logically, all connected references would be nullified.
Thank you for sharing that link! 😊
While that’s good data to have, I think that any claims should be immediately verifiable. I think it’s a disservice to the truth and public discourse to rely on appeals to authority for trust in one’s published news. Imo, an argument is either sound or unsound — an atomic claim is either accurate or inaccurate.
Hard to believe that when I’ve seen many of the “historically reputable” sources on that list flagrantly lying and spreading pro genocide props over the past 13 months
Being pro genocide is an opinion technically. If you have a “flagrant lie”, however, please post it. There was another wanker in the thread who claimed equal grand claims of lies but failed to come up with a link showing an actual lie
https://jacobin.com/2024/02/new-york-times-anti-palestinian-bias
I see your sources. I will check Wikipedia to see if there has been discussion on it, if not, I will bring it up and get back to you.
(On phone right now so I can’t)
EDIT: Will not be posting this on Wikipedia, see response in https://lemmy.ml/post/23416718/15472127
Well good. Luck with that, but my experience trying to get changes through on Wikipedia is that it just takes one person with an agenda to stubbornly go “nuh-uh” and there nothing you can do about it
I used to edit Wikipedia for a long time, so I know what you’re saying - but if you’re actually correct, you’ll generally win (may require pinging some other people who know you to come in to mediate)
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13537121.2024.2394292#abstract
So I read through this, and unfortunately there’s nothing concrete. Every error has been corrected, and the errors that remain are opinion pieces which can’t be listed as a source on Wikipedia. Due to WP:RECENT, this means no place where Wikipedia refers to the New York Times as a source will be asserting incorrect information.
This probably isn’t the response you want, but that’s the truth about their reporting.
Edit: If you still want to try and bring it up, this is what I had written in my draft:
The following article has been brought to my attention: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13537121.2024.2394292#abstract While the issues raised in this paper tend to focus on bias, and factual errors were later corrected in many cases (which should be suffice due to WP:RECENT), the section of "Misquoting Israeli leaders" refers to multiple errors in reporting from the New York Times that remain uncorrected. ~~~~(This is before I noticed the uncorrected parts are Opinion pieces, so I stopped)
You can post it here, but you will probably be shut down for the same reasons I mentioned above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard
It’s not immediately clear to me what you mean. Are you referring to increased transparency when a news outlet makes a mistake? Are you referring to legal action? Are you referring to something else?
Just a place where people can call out and crowdsource lies that news outlets publish
What do you mean by “crowdsource” in this context?