“Some of you may be willing to die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” but unironically
Edit: The user has since apologised https://hexbear.net/comment/3848285
“Some of you may be willing to die, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” but unironically
Edit: The user has since apologised https://hexbear.net/comment/3848285
Yeah they should just submit to a genocidal invader! That’s WAY better than dying!
The only one cheering for a genocide of Ukrainians is you buddy. I think they shouldn’t die in a massive murder machine.
I have not cheered for anything. I regret this situation as much as anyone. I simply think that it’s plain silly to capitulate to a mafia state that kidnaps and “re-educates” your children, bombs your hospitals and schools, massacres your villages and whose leaders have openly questioned the need for a Ukranian identity. I also think it’s quite telling that these “peace appeals” are only made to Ukraine, even though it takes two to tango and Ukraine isn’t the one trespassing.
Well first off: if we’re just making shit up, you might as well get creative with it. The Russians are actually harvesting the Orgon energy of the Ukrainians in order to fuel a massive necromantic rite that will imbue a thousand golems with life, which will create an indestructible army of russian super soldiers.
Secondly: The Russians aren’t actually just bombing hospitals and murdering children, I don’t know where you get these claims from, but you might’ve confused Russia with the US and Ukraine with Iraq. Even if the Russians were copying the American Shock and Awe strategy of warfare, that still doesn’t really change anything does it? The Ukrainians still can’t win, the longer they fight, the worse their negotiating position will be. But you think they still should fight.
So just to be clear: You think the Ukrainians should continue to be killed by the Russian military as they attack the defensive positions? You want this war to continue until all Ukrainians are dead? I just want to be sure I understand your position, which seems to be that you want all the Ukrainians to die and then Russia can just pick the corpse of the country as it wants.
Wow dude, this little number you’ve written here has so many logical fallacies and projections.
First of all, in no way am I defending the US invasions of the Middle East. Shit was bad and unnecessary.
Second of all, Russians are absolutely bombing hospitals and buildings full of children. They bombed a building in Mariupol that was used to house children and had that written on the roof. I’m also worried that they’re kidnapping children and robbing them of their Ukranian identity.
I think the war should continue for as long as Ukrainians are willing to fight. And not because I’m a cartoon villain that wants them all to die; I think any deal with Russia’s mafia leadership isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. The Russians have already stomped all over the Budapest memorandum that guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty, why would they honor any other deal? At best the Russians would use the peacetime to resupply and rearm and try again later.
The people who lied to you about those wars are telling you today’s war is totally a good one. Why would you believe them?
because russia is bad country
I don’t like being painted as someone who is told what to think. I do not think the Ukraine war is a “good one”, there are no “good” wars. I simply empathize more with the victims of imperialism and not the perpetrators of imperialism.
imperialism isn’t “when a country invades another country” for fuck’s sake, stop dressing your libshit in the facade of left-wing rhetoric.
That’s a challenge rating impossible. I see libs do this constantly. Invasion=imperialism for them, i think mostly because like you said, they want to use our words to sound more left wing even though they don’t know what they’re saying
I wasn’t saying you were. Improve your reading comprehension.
I wasn’t saying they weren’t, improve your reading comprehension. I was saying they weren’t doing these things on purpose.
I’m worried they might conscript the tooth fairy. As other users have already noted in this very thread, Russia is actually contacting families in order to reconnect them with their children.
You mean the Ukrainians that are being forcibly conscripted and prevented from leaving the country so they can be forcibly conscripted? Seems like they don’t want to fight if you ask me.
The Budapest memorandum??? You have got to be kidding me. A 30-year old document written shortly after the collapse of the USSR is somehow worthy of discussion? And it’s Russia that should be critiqued for breaching it? Euromaidan was a coup of the Ukrainian government led by far right militias funded by the United States Department, which then installed their own puppet government with their picked stooges. This government then continually shelled another russian-speaking part of Ukraine for 8 years (in spite of other treaties I might add). The Budapest memorandum was already trampled by the United States and then Ukraine itself.
Of course later treaties were written - like Minsk II, which was breached continually by Ukraine. Russia did seek diplomatic solutions before invading - which I think was an overreaction, but pretending it was unprovoked is silly.
Yet you think Ukraine should be worried Russia won’t follow treaties?
Of course I know what you will do, you will call me a bot or dismiss this as propaganda or drivel or whatever else. I also know what you won’t do: you wo t engage with the argument, and you won’t take the time to check it. You will dismiss it, because you are incapable of actually considering you might be misinformed.
Edit: And since we’re pulling treaties out of our ass, what of that of NATO encroachment? The agreement that NATO would not incorporate ex Soviet countries? That which had been broken, and which was being waved around at the time of the invasion, that’s of course nothing right? Because that different because we’re the ones doing it.
Wait a sec, Egon. How would you know that? If you don’t, why claim it? There have been a lot of attacks on civilian infrastructure and reckless attacks in civilian areas. I’m not quite convinced that russia is as innocent as you seem to believe.
There is no proof that Russia is deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure like hospitals. Likewise there is no proof it isn’t - how do you prove a negative?
We can however observe the slow pace in the beginning of the war, where Russia broke with modern doctrine of taking out critical infrastructure.
We can also look at the many long lasting sieges of large cities, where Russia made sure to create humanitarian corridors (the corridors that have received immense critique for being kidnapping operations somehow).
We can also think for ourselves: if Russia was deliberately targeting such buildings, why did it not do so at the start of the war, and why does it not target all of these building, or target them in such a way that they are permanently and completely destroyed?
What’s more likely: Russia is deliberately targeting schools and hospitals (but only kinda) in order to kill civilians because… Russia is just super evil? These deliberate acts of violence are carried out against a population that has shared a border with Russia for more than a century, with many russian citizens having family and friends in the country, yet Russia just wants to murder civilians.
OR Russia is fighting a war against an enemy that uses civilians as human shields and the war is often in large urban centres, which means that civilian targets are nigh impossible to completely avoid?
Why would you think the best of russia to begin with? They send conscripts & mobilized citizens off to a war that didn’t need to happen. They prevent many of their own from leaving the country… it’s the poor who will suffer the most.
Why now and not in the beginning? I don’t know for sure, but wars often end when one side loses the will to fight … maybe they are trying to wear down the will of the Ukrainians and allies? If the Ukrainian media is to believed, it doesn’t seem to be working. It sounds like it will be a long one.
Edit: Your last link didn’t link to the original OHCHR report, and presents a one-sided view. You can find the proper report linked to from here: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/07/high-commissioner-human-rights-high-numbers-civilian-casualties-ukraine
so you support the struggle of the DPR and LPR against Ukraine?
sorry not totally clear, you talking about USA?
How did the US. get Putin to invade Ukraine? I’m trying to follow the logic but I keep getting stuck on that one.
Weird, I got this as a reply but then it was just gone:
So the implication is that the Russian invasion was (and continues to be?) a false flag?
Yeah, I’m still not seeing how the US got Putin to go along with this false flag, any more details?
They were engaging in a dang whataboutism
Its a cheeky joke that is wondering why the United States has the moral authority to hypocritically police another state for actions that the USA engages in regularly and yet does not receive a fraction of the pushback.
It’s also worth pointing out, however, that the USA has been stoking the flames of Russian-Ukraine conflict for decades beginning with Operation Aerodynamics.
I love this bot
I would guess that US’s ability to project both hard and soft power grants them the opportunity to do so. I can’t speak to moral authority since you’d have to get everyone to agree on a moral authority to even have that discussion. I’m literally just trying to figure out what everyone thinks is actually happening, but everyone here seems content to stop at entertaining themselves with their own words.
It seems to me that Putin thought he had this same ability to influence the world around him, but misjudged his and his country’s ability to do either of those things, and is now reaping the rewards of that misjudgement. Sovereignty seems to be a sword of many edges for him.
Yeah that’s fair, these threads aren’t great for getting a sense of what people’s ideas are here. Especially since folks end up fairly antagonistic and the comments pile up. If you are curious, Here is a pretty good comment on the war, and I do recommend using the search function and just perusing the longer (especially sourced, read the sources!) and more effortful comments.
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Don’t worry, the people of the Donbass and Crimea will never surrender to a bunch of western armed Ukrainian Nazis
define genocide
The intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. Russia is doing that to Ukraine.
We have evidence of Ukraine banning the use of the Russian language, import of Russian books, Russian music, the banning of “pro-Russian” political parties. So we know Ukraine is engaging in what could be called cultural genocide. I’d love to see your evidence of actual genocide happening, though. I’m sure it’s real!
This is in no way equivalent hahaha. What kinda swill do they hand out in the IRA breakrooms these days?
Russia is invading the heartland of another distinct ethnicity and purging it. Ukraine is not doing that. It is simply clamping down on political liberties to ensure a stable war economy and political situation. This happens in every country that is forced to fight for it’s own existence.
Please show evidence of this.
Kidnapping Ukranian children and forcibly adopting them into Russian families is genocide. It is an explicit attempt to erase Ukranian culture.
Rescuing children from a warzone is genocide? Are you serious, you do realize the majority of those children are native Russian speakers and are reunited with their families when they’re located, like you do know those basic facts right, and aren’t just talking out your ass?
Those children should have been led to Ukraine to reunite with their Ukranian relatives since they are citizens of Ukraine. And if you are not talking out of your ass, would you kindly provide proof that they’re “reunited with their families when they’re located” and not just assigned to whichever family is keen to get govt money for raising kids?
I’m sorry, what does that have to do with “purging” as it relates to genocide? Surely you understand that relocating orphans - not “purging” them - and then repatriating them when their Ukrainian family can be found does not constitute genocide, right? This is basic, “what do words mean” level shit, so if you’re having trouble here then you might need to take a few steps back on making declarative statements about geopolitics.
lmao the Ukrainian state was committing those actions before the invasion you dumb fuck, hence the civil war between the years 2014 and 2022, also trying to erase the identity of half your population is not an example of a wartime measure, it’s ethnic cleansing and the Ukrainians are pretty open about it
Hence why the separatist Russian-speaking regions (especially Crimea) should win the war and prevent the expansion of state backed neo-nazism
Perhaps the Ukrainians should concentrate the population that shows Russian sympathy into small campsYou know, to keep a better eye on them and to ensure the security of the Ukrainian identity against the perfidy of the Russian abhumansFunny that one of the Baltic states proposed exactly this.
lemme guess
SStonia?
Do you think Russia is running death camps? Where are these purges supposedly taking place?
Why do white people try to create ethnic differences where none exist? Russians and Ukranians are visually / genetically / culturally pretty much identical. It’s like saying North Korea invaded South Korea to purge it of Koreans!
“not submitting to the ideological propaganda pushed by your oppressor is literally genocide”
So if chinese language is taught in your country and chinese publications are sold, this means your nation and culture has submitted to China?
Or English for that matter. The schools in Ukraine teach English and you can buy English books there
Well that depends, is China invading my country?
okay so genocide is a maybe for you
why is it that every time a .dev shows up they immediately start going full nazi
hackernews brain
Lmao no it doesn’t. Do you think the us was right to put Japanese citizens in internment camps?
God no. I think there’s some misinterpretation here. I was saying that blocking the media of an invading country does not equate to genocide. That’s it.
It doesn’t depend, and I hope you know that.
proof?
Well the Russians have been stealing Ukranian children and forcibly adopting them into Russian families to rob them of their national identity. They’ve been bombing civilian population centers and infrastructure. Putin put out this silly speech in which he claims that Ukrainians are just confused Russians and that’s why they need to come back into the fold (and just let their country and identity be destroyed). Lotsa proof there. I think the fact you haven’t found any and are still asking belies your biases (you’re probably another fucking Kremlin stooge).
By this metric all war is genocide
So the western liberal believes that orphans should be left in a war zone?
Ukraine uses child soldiers and brag about it so it’s a wholesome thing now I guess.
Are you saying that there are only two options? You either leave them to die or indoctrinate them into Russian families? No in-between?
You know the Russians are contacting family members and reuniting children with families, right? https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-children-returned-illegal-deportations-russia/32355290.html They try to frame it in a vicious manner because the liberal brain is soft and easy to manipulate, but the facts are those children were in Russia and given back to their families.
You’re just making up unhinged fantasies.
Oh boy they returned 31 children of the tens of thousands they’ve kidnapped, truly Russia is a messiah-state here to deliver us from western oppression
Also I haven’t made anything up, I’ve sourced all my claims, Ivan
Well it’s not like Ukraine is providing an alternative
Here, you attempt to flame Ukraine for shutting down humanitarian corridors because Russians attack them, and your source also states that Russians attack them? Do you even read your sources?
And this doesn’t even mention that, when Russia opened their own humanitarian corridors, they conveniently only led to Russian or allied Belarusian territory (instead of back to Ukraine, where a lot of these fleeing Ukranians wanted to go).
Hmmm
what would you do, oh paragon of morality? give them to ur heroic western human traffickers?
Are you claiming the Ukrainians are doing human trafficking here, or something else? Either way, if you have a good source I’d love to read it!
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this is the only part of ur comment that could feasibly be considered genocide and you didnt provide a source. and wikipedia isnt a reliable source
and Ukraine has been bombing civilian centers for the past decade. and that is well documented. maybe Ukraine is the real genocidal power
No just no. I lot of Ukrainians live in Russia or fled to russia. Russia would’ve started with them first if they wanted to do something that.
It’s a imperialist war at best started to secure a very strategically important location.
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I don’t think the people getting genocided care about dictionaries or philosophy.
For apparently being a genocide, this war has had less civilian casualties in the nearly year and a half it’s been on than there were in the first week of the US invading Iraq.
I’m just trying to understand all the conflicting stances that get bandied around. It’s a genocide, but genocide doesn’t matter, but it’s not a genocide because it hasn’t passed some death threshold? But it IS a genocide and it’s being done by Nazi Ukrainians against Ukrainians? Oh and Putin didn’t start the war, it was a false flag, but he’s continuing the war because he’s in on the false flag with the US, which started this as a proxy war, by convincing Putin to send Russians over the border to start the war, who were actually Ukraine Nazis.
I’m still not sure what’s going on in here.
Yeah you’re clearly a bit confused, probably because you’re mixing things people here might say with ridiculous strawmen that you dreamed up and pulled out of your ass.
Different people have different perspectives about the conflict? Different discussions have different topics and histories to bring up depending on the context?
Genocide obviously does matter (I’m not sure who you are insinuating says otherwise), the commenter was discussing how the concept of genocide has been watered down largely as a means to manufacture consent for western military operations. Some people claim that Ukraine was engaging in genocide against the russian minority esp. through violence (by far right military orgs) in the east of Ukraine and legislation that suppresses russian minorities.
If you are confused you should ask some actual questions (or use the search function, find some of the effort posts). You will get genuine answers if you ask in good faith.
How does one go about parsing perspectives from delusions in this community?
Ukrain will eventually give up, that’s a perspective.
Putin is participating in a joint false flag operation with the US., that is not a perspective.
It’s highly confusing.
But as far as I can tell, you made up the false flag thing entirely because of an image that disappeared. At least that’s what I can only assume based on your other comments. No one made that claim (as far as I can see). Please link the comment of someone saying the war in Ukraine is a false flag.
Apparently the user deleted the comment. In which case I’m actually glad because that seems like a very “removed from reality” take on the whole situation.
What the fuck are you talking about? You’re just making up people to get mad at. If you have any integrity you engage with the arguments presented to you rather than making shit up and strawmanning. Who that you are discussing with in this thread is claiming the war was started due to a false flag? You must be willfully misinterpreting @robinn2@hexbear.net if you could somehow get their response to you to mean that they think genocide doesn’t matter. What’s this about a death threshold? Are you willfully being obtuse about the point made with relating this war to that in Iraq?
Why do you choose to be willfully obtuse? Why are you so focused on scoring points from some imagined audience rather than engaging with the argument presented to you? Are you this scared you might be misinformed?
True, they probably care more that the Azov goons that were doing it to them are hamburger now.
Interesting. So The Azov brigade invaded their own home country from across the border? Or are you insinuating that they were Russians all along? I’m confused.
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Didn’t you just post that genocide means nothing now? But now you’re posting a definition?
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You didn’t respond to me with that comment, that was someone else.
Bye~~
Why are you willfully being obtuse?
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Maybe there’s a bug in your client? PEBKAC?
Im sorry but the Donbass and crimeans are winning, so they are safe from the genociders. You don’t have to worry anymore.
who’s the they here? you are conflating the interests of the Ukrainian state and specifically the zelensky administration and his NATO handlers with the Ukrainian people.