I feel like I understand communist theory pretty well at a basic level, and I believe in it, but I just don’t see what part of it requires belief in an objective world of matter. I don’t believe in matter and I’m still a communist. And it seems that in the 21st century most people believe in materialism but not communism. What part of “people should have access to the stuff they need to live” requires believing that such stuff is real? After all, there are nonmaterial industries and they still need communism. Workers in the music industry are producing something that nearly everyone can agree only exists in our heads. And they’re still exploited by capital, despite musical instruments being relatively cheap these days, because capital owns the system of distribution networks and access to consumers that is the means of profitability for music. Spotify isn’t material, it’s a computer program. It’s information. It’s a thoughtform. Yet it’s still a means of production that ought to be seized for the liberation of the musician worker. What does materialism have to do with any of this?
That’s not what materialism means in the context of communist theory.
When communists talk about materialism, we generally refer to historical materialism, the theory that a society’s culture and politics (its superstructure) are shaped by its material forces (its base). This isn’t strictly a one-way street, mind - it’s cyclical, with each exerting some influence on the other, though the base dominates. See this diagram. This view is generally contrasted with liberal idealism, which assumes that ideas and culture are the dominant drivers of society.
To give an example in the most straightforward terms possible, let’s take the question: “What is the connection between the 19th century US southern aristocrats’ Christianity and their support for slavery?”
Idealism says that these aristocrats were pro-slavery because they interpreted the Bible to be pro-slavery.
Materialism says that these aristocrats interpreted the Bible to be pro-slavery because they were pro-slavery.
Ultimately, they were following their economic and material interests in a society in which Christianity was the dominant religion. Anything they may have believed or professed to believe about Christianity emerged from that.
Well I sure disagree with everything you just said. I think it’s reductive, simplistic, and appeals to problematic realist sensitivities. What does everything you just said have to do with communism?
It’s the entire basis of communist theory. Capitalism cannot be “fixed” because its basic structure consists of two classes with different relations to the means of production, the bourgeoise and the proletariat, who have diametrically opposed material interests. The way to resolve this contradiction is to do away with the parasitic capitalist class and reorganize society so that it consists only of workers.
This is 101-level Marxism. If you don’t agree with any of it, then, uh, you may be on the wrong site.
To be entirely fair, anarchists and other non-Marxists are completely allowed on this site
I agree with everything you just said and don’t see how it depends upon the stuff I disagreed with
If material reality (or, to hopefully bridge a terminology barrier, our perceptual interface) didn’t matter, that would mean that the struggle between the proletariat and bourgeoisie is fundamentally inane, and would suggest an entirely different approach other than communism is necessary.
I agree, however, I think our perceptual interface matters
If you think it matters, and I have repeatedly suggested how treating the perceptual interface with respect would be identical to the function of Marxist materialism, what are we even arguing about?
Idealism, the opposite of materialism, when translated to this new conception of reality, would just be believing that things we consciously make up matter more than our perceptual interface.
That seems to be moving the goalposts quite a bit.
Precisely, how on earth are we supposed to have any kind of debate about this when your chaos magic keeps altering reality!?
so you are not a marxist, bye lol :)
i’m joking. but you really need to read about marxism.
It’s the very basics of our theory. and it’s basically what i told you before.
ofc, you can believe in socialism without being a marxist. You might be interested in reading Polanyi for example.
No, I do understand everything you just said, I just think it’s wrong and that a properly communist analysis would demonstrate that. Are you telling me that historical materialism is just one of multiple ways of arriving at communist conclusions?
Half an hour ago, you didn’t know what historical materialism meant. You are in no position to tell anyone what a “properly communist analysis” would demonstrate.
No investigation, no right to speak.
i think they must be very young, no need to be hostile :)
i find this whole discussion kinda cute to be honest…
I knew what historical materialism meant, just didn’t see what it had to do with communism other than Marx believed in it. I don’t really understand Marx’s thinking in associating the two, but this thread is helping. It seems like y’all are already materialists and just need a material analysis of class because you’re not ready to understand the big stuff.
ok this is definitely an elaborate bit
Our problematic, highest-concept elaborate bitposter was banned two days before this account was created
Oh, fuck off
That quote should be a site tagline lmfao
I fully understand the philosophical perspective you’ve adopted, I simply disagree with it.
Communism is usually associated with historical materialism, the theory that everyone here is trying to explain to you. However, there have been other forms of socialism before and after Marx. You might find interesting Henri de Saint-Simon and his theories, Paul Lafargue, or for another, more recent example of non-Marxist socialist, Karl Polanyi.
If you don’t believe in Marxism, that’s okay. But you need to study it first, and based on your original post, it might require some more time, patience, and reading.
I think you and a lot of people in this thread have confused disagreement for ignorance due to a failure of cognitive empathy. Which is understandable, because neurotypical cognitive empathy doesn’t work properly on autistic people. I’ll check out those sources you linked.
lol, i see vast agreement in the answer you got. but you need to be a bit more careful and thoughtful. your ideas so far are a confused potpourri. you need to read what marxist theory and communism are, more than a few slogans. and this can be done just alone, with a book. perhaps start here: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/marx-a-very-short-introduction-9780198821076 (Marx: A Very Short Introduction - Peter Singer)
Do not read that, Singer is a terrible interpreter of Marx
I’ve never heard of Singer. Why is he bad?
Respectfully, it has been repeatedly proven that human beings respond to their environment with more intensity than their own minds. This is verifiable by just checking in with your own emotions at any point.
This doesn’t mean that the environment fulfills some specific sit of criteria or that I’m a “realist” instead of an “idealist”. I don’t think what makes up the fundamental environment matters nearly as much as the idea that people are affected by that environment and often can’t help it.
This has to be true, by necessity, for anything at all to make sense. Think about this: If you were never exposed to anything, ever, and had absolutely no senses, including pain or bodily sensations, since the moment you were born, how would you be able to formulate thoughts or take action? You couldn’t, there would be nothing to make up their content. This demonstrates that the material is essential to human thought.
Regardless of if reality is real or not, our fundamental experiences are still defined by it, and that’s what the root of Marxist materialism is. Not a belief that metaphysics aren’t real, not a belief that physical matter is of a certain character or is even unassailable in it’s reality, but a belief that human beings are fundamentally altered and influenced by it.
And it has been repeatedly proven that I respond to science fiction with more intensity than soap operas. All you have identified is that our perceptual interface is more compelling than thoughts of our conscious creation, not that our perceptual interface comes from outside the mind.
I don’t find Hume’s thought experiment as compelling as you do. If I accept your premise that senses are required for sensation, that still does not mean senses must be directed at the world. They could also be directed at other conscious agents, or at parts of the self.
Sure, but if we were to abolish the social construct of reality, communism would still be plenty possible and the best way of doing things.
And it doesn’t need to