Anyway, I was suspecting that this “issue” might come up so I’ve removed the Claude co-authorship from the commits a few days ago. So good luck figuring out what’s generated and what is not.
Great way to torpedo any trust people might’ve had in your project.
It is kind of hilarious that this is actually the issue here. Sure, using AI for coding can be problematic. But then going back and removing any reference to it just to fuck with people even more. Damn.
While I hate AI as much as the next guy. It’s also entirely true that people are attacking and harassing people for using making them a worse problem.
I’m entirely down for fucking with the dipshits who can’t help themselves but be massive twats.
If your going to have a shit show might as well make it a good one.
I think it’s hilarious how much it’s bothering you guys
CAREFUL! That’s borderline troll thinking.
Oh you don’t like to know when we put shit in your food so you can scrutinize it? Fine we’ll just not tell you.
Congratz now ALL of it contains shit.
Schrodinger’s Backdoor
All jokes aside, Windows (pre ai) was filled with backdoors now. Still is, probably has more, but it never stopped them in the past.
“Haha now you won’t know what is or isn’t slop!!”
“But then we’ll just assume it’s all slop…”
“…D’oh!!!”
They’d assume that anyway. The self-proclaimed haters have a one-drop rule.
That’s why this author didn’t exactly announce it - they were trying to dodge a harassment campaign.
Then they don’t read very much. They streisand effected themselves.
They are making the point that you won’t be able to tell the difference. & It’s a salient one.
Doesn’t give much confidence in their coding abilities then.
Okay. I guess you want the volunteer open source dev to write everything by hand from scratch so it will pass your high standards. That’s on you, honestly.
Ahh yes, how dare a community run and funded project have community accountability.
The project has several ways of being community funded.
Accountability for what!? You people have lost your minds.
Ah yes, if anyone is against AI, because of its problems, then we’ve all lost our minds.
Are YOU the dev in question, or do you just have an unreasonably huge boner for AI?
I happen to agree w the developer that peoples’ problem w AI is actually a problem w Capitalism
Yes, that is what we want. Or at least everything past boilerplate templates.
Thats like…exactly how its been done up to this point???
Even if that were true, which it isn’t, there are plenty of other reasons to scrutinize any use of “generative” AI.
Like…?
Like that it produces hallucinated bullshit and anyone can see that with any given 2-3 Google searches now. It’s literally impossible to miss that if you use the Internet now.
I’m not a fanboi of AI, but also not all AI is equally capable. You can be upset for ethical reasons, you can dislike some things it produces for style reasons, and yes it does sometimes produce code that feels like it should work, even though it doesn’t. All of these things are true.
But also Claude doing coding is very different than the AI answers on Google searches, and even those are much better than a cherry-picked highlight reel of bad results on a blog post.
Again, you don’t have to like AI or agree with its use, but claiming the code Claude produces is fully bullshit because some customer support chatbot does a bad job is just being misinformed. You should at least know your enemy and its capabilities.
You took that way too literally
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Yeah, nah. Damage has been done already.
He should’ve stuck with his guns and said “the Claude code stays”.
He did. You may have misunderstood.
He did. You may have misunderstood.
I mean he should have simply stated “the Claude code stays”, instead of hiding which were the Claude commits.
I think you mean Claude cope.
“You didn’t like what I was doing? No fucking problem I’ll just lie about it moving forward”
Having read the article, some points from the dev make sense, but also he acted like a princess by the end, so a bit of a messy situation.
Uninstalled, bye bye ai slop.
I’ll be uninstalling tonight.
What decides if something is slop or not is the thing itself. It is not your “KwaLiFiKaShunz”. Bringing up “muh 30 years of XP lol lmao” means jack shit.
If he was co-authoring the code with Claude this means he submitted code made by Claude; he didn’t just ask for some examples and implement in his own way. The later would be far more reasonable than the former.
What he said about the problem being capitalism instead of the tool itself is, I believe, valid. However, it should be no excuse to unnecessarily feed that very same economic system, by paying for the bloody tool.
Finally. He could’ve fixed what people complained about, by removing the commits, so he would keep them happy. He could also stick to his guns, and say “no, I’m not changing it. The Claude code stays”. But he did neither; instead he’s hiding it from the users. That’s pretty much the same as saying “I’m going to treat users as gullible filth and easy to fool, instead of human beings deserving honesty.”
A good thing open software can be forked.
The way y’all overuse the word “slop” is like calling all e-mail “spam.” Both are supposed to refer to a deluge of nonsense nobody asked for. This author has an LLM in-the-loop, plainly on purpose and with purpose, and it seems to be working out.
If any interaction with spicy autocomplete is treated as equally bad, to the point of aggressive mockery - no kidding people will tune that out. It’s not constructive or sincere. It borders on abusive. How much coverage did this guy just get, where the comments are all ‘well if he’d just done [blank]–,’ and how many people actually believe that [blank] would result in fewer snide comments?
The way y’all overuse the word “slop” is like calling all e-mail “spam.”
It’s more like calling automatically sent e-mails “spam”. From the PoV of the [software | e-mail] user saying the word, both [slop | spam] are undesirable, even if the [coder | marketing team] in question is doing it on purpose and with purpose, to further their goals of [pumping out more software | reaching a wider audience].
If any interaction with spicy autocomplete is treated as equally bad, to the point of aggressive mockery - no kidding people will tune that out.
For me at least the worst part isn’t using it, but trying to hide it. I don’t think it’s justified, even if some users return snide comments because of it.
The difference is that marketing is trying to sell you things to part you from your money. How much does Lutris cost? Yeah, it’s free and open source, so the motivations are completely different - including the motivations for using AI.
When it comes to the usage of both words, that difference you listed is completely arbitrary and obviously irrelevant. People also use the word “slop” to refer to commercial software (see: “Microslop”) and “spam” to refer to any sort of undesirable email being mass sent, even if non-commercial.
Unless you’re trying to argue something else; that the slop in this specific case is more justified. Then refer to the top comment in the chain; frankly the main issue here is not adding slop to their software, it’s the eagerness to treat users as braindead trash undeserving transparency.
When it comes to the usage of both words, that difference you listed is completely arbitrary and obviously irrelevant
What? No. Software is something people go looking for and choose to download, unless we’re talking about malware which I think is fair to say is obviously outside the bounds of this conversation. Spam emails are forced on people without their asking or looking for them. They’re not at all interchangeable or the same thing.
Most people don’t care how their software is written, just like they don’t care how their food is actually made. And by “most people” I don’t mean you or anyone else here on Lemmy, I mean the majority of people who use computers. You wouldn’t believe how technically illiterate and uncurious the average person is - that’s who I mean. Those people hate spam emails, but they don’t care if their email app was vibecoded with AI. They don’t even know the difference between AI code and hand-typed human code, and most of 'em probably think “more code is better so AI is better!”.
Unless you’re trying to argue something else; that the slop in this specific case is more justified.
Sort of. I’m saying that while I understand why AI disclosures are a good thing, I think that if a person is not paying for an application and they’re not contributing to its development, then that person can keep their opinions on the development process to themselves. They can take those opinions and go build something of their own to satisfy them.
it’s the eagerness to treat users as braindead trash undeserving transparency.
I simply don’t think that’s a fair characterisation, because it ignores how people treat the developers who use the tools in the first place. People who have no technical skills whatsoever are happy to loudly shit all over said developers and call their work garbage - work they’ve been doing for nothing.
I agree the initial response could have been approached better, but all of us have the benefit of judging in hindsight and from a distance. I can understand how their emotions got the better of them, while under fire like that. This looks distinctly different from the BookLore fiasco though, where the dev is trying to close up the source in retaliation.
I just wish people would find more reasonable targets for their ire, instead of rolling with the pitchforks-and-torches mentality. Individuals building open source software are not usually reasonable targets. I do think “good thing it’s easy to fork open source” is the right sentiment; this is why anything I build, I put up under the Unlicense, because as far as I’m concerned any utility someone can get from it is to the good.
What? No. Software is something people go looking for and choose to download, unless we’re talking about malware which I think is fair to say is obviously outside the bounds of this conversation. Spam emails are forced on people without their asking or looking for them.
Yeah, and that’s totally a criterion people use when labelling something “slop” or not, right? Right??? Oh wait, no, it isn’t.
They’re not at all interchangeable or the same thing.
That is not even remotely close to what I said. Not bothering further with a liar (or worse) who distorts what others say.
Edit: Screw it, not worth it. Blocked, please return the favour, cheers ‘n’ thanks.
Spicy auto complete is fantastic, I love it
I mean the term
I mean, also the spice if we’re being honest
Both are extremely stolen.
If buying isn’t owning, piracy isn’t stealing. I’m a pirate through and through.
Why? Because I don’t respect capitalists. And I don’t care if they upsets them.
In fact, I kind of hope it upsets them.
More specifically, it means they made commits with it. If you use it but commit yourself there’s no coauthored.
Or just add a note to your memory md…
But even if he goes metaphorically vegan, his code is still going to feed the AIs.
Which is an entirely different conversation that has nothing to do with this one.
Even if it was the same conversation (as TrickDacy said, it isn’t), “you can’t avoid the harm completely” is no excuse to avoid causing at least some of that harm.
I’m not gonna lie, Lutris is fucking terrible. Basic QOL things are missing. There’s so many disjointed ways of doing so many things. The same 2-5 things need to be set every time you add an app and it’s basically all manual because they have done nothing to make it better. There’s thousands and switches and options, and the only way to find information about what they do is to hit the web… and then you find out so many of them are probably useless.
There’s built in install scripts for things but trying to figure out any information about them within the program itself is also useless.
Then there’s the shit that just doesn’t work. Other tools like Heroic Games Launcher are the only way to install games from providers like epic. You can spend hours troubleshooting this in Lutris, and maybe even get an epic game to install and run once… but everything is going to be a broken mess on try 2.
Just a disappointing app all around once you really start working with it. It’s a shame it seems to be the default mode wine app manager.
Speaking of install scripts, their refusal to version them for “reasons” was my first hint that the project wasn’t in a healthy state.
I just removed Lutris and tried out Bottles last night. How have I never tried it before? It’s so good!
Expect the dev behind it is also a insane twat waffle.
Bottles is about as much of a mess as lutris is with a dev that’s just as crazy.
Generally you have a 50/50 coin flip if lutris or bottles works for you. And for the most part you sorta just try both and see which works then attempt as hard as you can to change nothing so it don’t break. Cause bottles LOVES to break.
I don’t think the dev of Lutris is an insane twat waffle. He and I just disagree on the use of AI code. I foresee the project’s quality declining because of it, and I’d prefer to jump ship now. Lutris wasn’t a big part of my system, so it was really easy. Basically I only ever used it to run WinSCP on Linux.
Never used that shit.
“Add non-Steam game”
That is generally the approach I use, but some games take a bit more setup. I play StarCraft2 for Archipelago and I needed to install it with this app to get the proper script to get it to run successfully. What this app has that Steam doesn’t is the ability for people to create, export, and share custom install and launch profiles for others to use.
With that said I will need to see what Heroic Launcher has to offer.
Ahhh, that is useful.
I used a bit of Heroic and liked it, I hope it fills your needs!
Oh poop, been using lutris and it was pretty good at what it was doing for me. What might be alternatives though?
Heroic is pretty good
Bottles, maybe?
Heroic has been my go to for everything outside of my Steam library.
Heroic. Bottles for the rest.
I’ve found Faugus to just be better.
Heroic and Steam.
Heroic for GOG and Epic games.
Steam for literally everything else: add the .exe as a non-Steam game, find it in your library, go into its properties, set Compatibility > Force Compatibility Mode > Proton Experimental.
Heroic can add games to Steam for you.
I liked Lutris for Battle.net games like Diablo.
Again, Steam does a fine job of that. Add the installer as a non-Steam game, set compatibility, “play” it, then when it’s finished change the shortcut to point to the actual game.
I just fucking install my games like normal with wine if needed.
What is wrong with people that you can’t install something and add a .desktop entry on your system?
I simply can’t take the one-prefix-fits-all approach. Some games play way nicer with older wine versions (especially 32bit games. From the top of my head, The Sims 1 works better for me with Wine 8). A prefix manager is really helpful for managing prefixes with different wine versions that don’t clog up the rest of the system.
But go off being an ass, I guess.
I use wine with winetricks for the manager and the other stuff that makes it easier. I also use q4wine. It’s a GUI for wine written in Qt. Both makes things simpler to varying degrees, and winetricks does have some scripts (though I don’t know how they would compare to lutris)
Neat, thank you, I’ll be taking a peek at that combo!
Lutris furfils several roles that a bunch of
.desktopentries will not.- Its a list of games
- you can search it by title
- you can tag them
- you can sort them in different ways
- you can use wine for some launches, proton for others or native
although i don’t use it, you can log into your steam account (i think also gog?) to get access to games from there.
Think of it, as a more of a plex/jellyfin library for games than a bunch of video files spread around your hdd. I don’t want to remember which games are wine friendly and which need proton or are linux native.
I actually dont see the fucking problem. Let them develop it way they want. People will tell if it’s good or not.
The problem is installing buggy clanker code on thousands of systems where the experience level is “I like games”
Ethics objections aside, dude said he’s not even reviewing some of the code the AI generates. At least leave the markers where it shows which code is what so proper scrutiny can be given.
Lutris dev is a straight up crybaby and needs to learn to a) read a room and b) not take risks with other people’s systems to stroke his own fucking ego.
Fucking bitchmade shit.
At this point I guess we’re just assuming it’s “buggy” due to the IA, right? You guys just have to accept that these tools will do better job than humans in the near future, at least for basic or intermediate programming. It’s going to get better that it is today and we’re going to have to live with it. I agree on marking the code. That should be necessary. Besides that, I really don’t care about the dev. As I said before no one is forcing us to use Lutris.
At this point I guess we’re just assuming it’s “buggy” due to the IA, right?
No. But it might be. We don’t know because the guy who’s supposed to double check, isn’t. And admits to it like its some kind of brag.
There also the whole debate around licensing. Generative images have been called “art laundering”, and the same can be argued for code.
It’s a potential way to break FOSS licenses. Just copy the code and have an AI re-implement what it does, and boom you get to ignore license obligations.
It’s going to get better that it is today and we’re going to have to live with it.
Just shut up with this line.
Every piece of human-made code that’s available online has already been trawled hundreds of times, and anything new doesn’t get added often. There are no more examples for AI agents to use in training that weren’t used before. Their progress in generating code is plateauing.
AI generated code is still notorious at hallucinating API calls and making code that doesn’t work. And the code that does work tends to be overcomplicated and unoptimized. And this code isn’t easily maintainable because the “developers” weren’t involved in its production.
Lord Almighty the reactionary hate is so goddamn stupid.
Do you blame people for having a knee-jerk reaction to unwelcome AI integration? Or would you mind elaboring on what you view as reactionary.
Yes. Theyre being reactionary.
Are these people even paying a single penny to the developer or are they just acting entitled?
Have they contributed at all to the project? Its foss, maybe they dhould open up their own PRs and fix it if they care so much.
Theyre welcome to fork it anytime they want and just not merge in any AI commits, if they can spot them, right?
But I bet you no one will actually do this, people will mald and act entitled and stamp their feet… and then keep using it anyways and never pay a cent to the dev.
Fuck em. The dev doesnt owe them shit.
The dev “owes us” as people to not be a shitty person, or at the very least, we should expect them not to be one. It absolutely is a slap in the face to people who trusted that project and the person heading it to not be shit, because they are now being shit, and people are right to call them out. Because they’re being shit.
Also you’re right, more people should donate to FLOSS projects that they love and use frequently, as do I. As someone with no programming knowledge, it’s all I can do aside from recommending your software to others. Wanna know one way to ensure I’ll not only withhold donations but warn others not to use or trust your software? Defending and/or using AI slop machines.
Yeah I do. This is a small, volunteer, open source developer creating something for our benefit & has found a way to ease their workload but the purity brigade demands they type everything out by hand from scratch b/c they have big feels & are reflexively reactionary about AI. Seems shitty to me.
Gotcha, I have a different definition of reactionary.
I interpreted your comment to mean: “these guys are mad the human who made the project is no longer writing the project in its entirety. So they feel the need to abandon the project and villify the author for using the big plagiarism tool.”
If I’m correct in my interpretation. I would agree with that comment, making me also reactionary by your definition.
This is a project released for free by volunteers we’re talking about, not a commercial service pushing hostile crap on users.
I think the dev in question is shitty for treating Lutris as their own fiefdom, but the mob are looking a gift horse in the mouth by attacking volunteers when they’re not willing to step up and contribute non-AI code themselves.
I think you mean a different idiom than “a gift horse in the mouth”
What’s wrong with it? Seems like the right metaphor.
People are complaining about the minutiae of something they’ve been given freely and don’t have to use.
“Looking a gift horse in the mouth” means that you’ve received a gift of some kind, but you’re giving it too much scrutiny. It kind of shows the giver of the gift that you’re not really appreciative of it - sometimes it’s better to smile and nod and thank them for the gift, and scrutinize it later.
I guess what you mean is that Lutris is the gift, but my first reading was that the opportunity to chastise a developer for using AI was the gift.
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Why are you making up quotes I didn’t say and don’t reflect my opinion in the slightest?
From the outside, it sure looks like you’re trying to flame and stir drama to address your own emotional state, rather than make any sort of coherent argument to persuade people to your line of thinking.
unwelcome AI integration
This isn’t an integration. They’re just using AI to write some of the code.
I don’t AI so I don’t know the lingo. I think it’s shit so I don’t want shit near my nice things.
Fair. But keep in mind if you ever use auto translate, Netflix recommendations, Google search (or ddg), Windows, Mac, android. iPhone. Any service hosted on AWS (like 70% of all sites) you’re indirectly using ai.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m with out. But it’s unavoidable.
I see it as one if those “no ethical consumption under capitalism” kinda things. You can’t avoid it because the people that control the thing are adding shit to the recipe.
Sure, and I agree there’s no ethical consumption, but I don’t see it as a flat line.
There’s more and less when it comes to ethical.
Lutris has always been a pain in the ass to use. Nothing I set up worked properly. Manually setting things up via Proton has worked just fine for me, so nothing of value was lost with this fiasco.
I’ve been using Faugus and it just works. Every time I try Lutris I get upset.
If you really care, I feel like most folks would benefit from checking out
Installing games on linux, even with wine, isnt that hard.
And adding a .desktop entry isnt hard either.
Plasma Bigscreen then nicely gives you a controller friendly UI to pick games from.
Whether or not I use Claude is not going to change society, this requires changes at a deeper level, and we all know that nothing is going to improve with the current US administration.
I mean yeah, that’s true. Why waste energy harassing developers of libre software for using AI? That’s not going to have any impact on big tech.
This is not about big tech, its about lutris apparently being maintained by an idiot with no regard for code quality, safety or community interests.
The point of drawing a line is to make a clear distinction between acceptable and unacceptable. If you just move the line when it’s convenient then it means nothing.
Sure, but if you end up policing only those in arm’s length you will have the opposite effect on the world of what you want.
Nobody’s only policing those in arm’s length. I’m sure nobody mad at the Lutris dev over this are defending Google or Microsoft lol
policing only those in arm’s length
Dude, you’re on Lemmy. Do you not realize how many people on here are saying “fuck it, let’s drop Google and Microslop and stick with FLOSS”? How many people on here are trying to convince others to switch too?
These people are already doing what they can to steer the entire tech space in the right direction. But it’s hard to influence the giants directly. To do that, you need good FLOSS alternatives, which doesn’t work if those alternatives start riddling themselves with slop
People simply do not want AI. They don’t want to look at AI “art”, don’t want to listen to AI “music”, don’t want to read AI “books” and don’t want to use AI slopware.
This is both a matter of quality and, more importantly, principles.
And I think it’s safe to say that people in the open source community are more ideological than most. Finding out that a project is relying on exploitative corporate slop of an unknown origin is like the hippy going to the farmer’s market only to find that the guy selling “his local organic free-range cage-free” eggs is just buying factory shit from the supermarket.
I didn’t think anyone blames the Lutris guy for AI at large.
But people are passionate about things and they don’t want to support a project that they perceive is being thoughtlessly programmed, exploiting the labor of others, violating the letter or the spirit of the GPL, supporting a corrupt industry, etc.
Thank you. It’s so infuriating to come into threads like this to find “If you don’t like it, do it yourself” and shit like that. All it does is remove blame from the person making an ignorant decision, and place it on those rightfully upset because “Maybe the dev wouldn’t have been forced to use the environment destroying plagiarism machine if you have been more generous with your time.”
Yeah. But ultimately people will have to fork Lutris, or just use something else (like Faugus, Bottles, Steam, etc.), if they don’t like how things are being run.
Oh for sure, that’s one the benefits of open source stuff, you can do that in the first place. I just mean that seeing blame be misplaced gets under my skin, especially when it comes from such a disingenuous place.
Oh man I love having CVE 9 vulnerabilities in my system
