• toad@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        2·
        6 days ago

        easy. Race have as much to do with skin colour as gender is with having a pp. People are black because racists decided what “black” meant.

        • Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.socialOPEnglish
          3·
          9 days ago

          Sure, but does that mean you can also change your body to match your race? Like isn’t race also a social construct?

          Irish people weren’t considered white not too long ago, so surely it must be.

          • deadbeef79000@lemmy.nzEnglish
            9·
            8 days ago

            Race is also a social construct, as you point out.

            Skin color is a genetic phenotype., biological sex is too. Those phenotypes are inherited.

            So yeah, you could change your appearance: skin color, bone structure, musculature, etc with surgery.

            Michael Jackson is a good example of this (though he had vitiligo). Compare pictures of his face in his early career to later. He was still ‘African American’ though.

              • JigglySackles@lemmy.worldEnglish
                1·
                6 days ago

                They are making a point that gender is something in one’s own mind. It’s not necessarily genetic.

                Sex is not changed with surgery. Surgery allows the person receiving it to have a body that matches more closely with what they want to feel like (their gender). No different than people getting breast implants or reductions or labioplasty or plastic surgery or dick enhancement.

                Most people have a body/sex that fits their preferred gender which is why this feels weird to some people, especially the ones that can’t or won’t reason through this. They make snap judgments with previous biases or prejudices which is an unfair and somewhat bigoted position to take.

                • Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.socialOPEnglish
                  1·
                  6 days ago

                  Sure but race is also a social construct. It’s not inherited.

                  Eg. some people didn’t consider the Irish as white.

                  So neither is inherited, aka why I asked how it’s relevant.

      • eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
        23·
        9 days ago

        1. Because gender is a social convention

        2. because I did and it worked. I’m a woman and everybody around me sees and and we all just get on with life. (See part 1)

      • starman2112@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        22·
        9 days ago

        Gender isn’t a heritable trait. I’m not a boy because my dad was a boy any more than I am a girl because my mom was a girl. I am white because my parents were white

        • zarkanian@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          1·
          8 days ago

          Sort of. You’re white because that’s the box that society put you into. There are children of African-American parents who are so light-skinned that they pass as white and vice versa. Regardless of what race your parents are, you are the race that people perceive you as, because it’s only based on perception.

          • starman2112@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            1·
            8 days ago

            I should gave clarified that it’s a bit more complex. Even I’m not sure how I really feel about this topic. Of course I’m white because I have light skin and my parents were white, but it becomes a lot more complicated when you’re melanistic with white parents or albino with black parents. And then there’s mixed races. Is a lighter skinned black guy “whiter” than a darker skinned mixed guy?

            I’m waaay too white to be commenting on who can and can’t be considered what races lmao

      • xkbx@startrek.websiteEnglish
        5·
        9 days ago

        It’s definitely a complex issue with nuances that go beyond the surface level of the argument. The short answer is that gender is a fluid expression, race is static because it’s your heritage.

        There’s way more to it obviously, but I’m not really qualified or eloquent enough to really get into it.

      • Kyden Fumofly@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        8 days ago

        Because race is a stupid term made to group people based on their appearance. 500 years ago it didn’t even exist.

        Gender is a deeper aspect which exist from the begining of our species.

            • Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.socialOPEnglish
              1·
              6 days ago

              Race isn’t tied to DNA, it’s a social construct.

              The Irish weren’t considered white at some point, and I’m pretty sure there are people who feel that Italians/Spanish are a different race etc.

      • ricecake@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        2·
        8 days ago

        The reason, fyi, is because they’re two different categories of thing. Gender is, and always has been, centered around the social aspects. Presentation, identity, roles, behaviours.

        Race is a complex category, with a mix of physiological and culture dependent aspects.
        You can’t change your race because you can’t change your heritage, which is a component.

        You can, however, change your cultural identity. It’s not a perfect analog to gender, obviously, but it’s closer to race.
        Much like how we conflated the names for the sexes with the names for the genders, many cultures share a name with a race that is a prominent member. This is often acutely clear to mixed race people or people adopted into a different racial household.

  • OwOarchist@pawb.socialEnglish
    90·
    9 days ago

    She’s right – surgery doesn’t change gender.

    It only helps one’s body conform to the gender they already are. Getting surgery doesn’t turn a man into a woman (or vice versa). They were already a woman, and the surgery just helps them look and feel like it. A trans woman doesn’t become a woman when she gets a surgery – she becomes a woman when she realizes she’s trans (or, rather, realizing she’s trans reveals to her that she was always a woman).

    • Paragone@lemmy.worldEnglish
      11·
      9 days ago

      Exactly.

      Brainwiring/gender is above-the-neck, & sex is below-the-waist gonads.

      They are distinct.

      The gaslighters who insist that one’s “identity” overrides one’s body, are gaslighting.

      Having people get the wrong medical-treatment because their gender-identity is all that is shown on their medical-chart, so they’re being treated for male problems, while pregnant…

      that whole category of problem is created by the falseness/artifice of “identity is the only reality” ideology/religion.

      BOTH need to be identified, & BOTH have validity.

      _ /\ _

  • starman2112@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    53·
    9 days ago

    Not that anyone who takes this seriously would care, but sex change surgery doesn’t change gender, it changes anatomy. A person is already the gender they are before or after any medical interventions

  • bootleg@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    43·
    8 days ago

    You could have just Googled this if you just wanted an answer…

    If anyone doesn’t want to give Reddit any kind of traffic, the answer is this:

    There have been studies done on dead transgender people that demonstrate that trans people have differing brain structures; a trans woman’s brain will have many (but not all) of the features that a cisgender woman’s brain has. The same goes for trans men.

    source: https://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132.full

    There is no such evidence for transracial people as that’s not really a thing. Race is much more of an artificial concept than gender, and has little biological basis. Black people are not of a different race than white people, they simply have different genetic traits that are well within the boundary for counting as the same species.

    race as a social construct: http://www.jstor.org/stable/188702?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Brain regions can be considered masculinized or feminized depending on their response to sex hormones (look up the preoptic area for a well-studied example of this); there’s no such thing as a ‘race hormone’ that can ‘blacken’ or ‘whiten’ brain regions.

    estrogen modulates neuronal movements within the developing preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2295210/

  • kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    42·
    8 days ago

    Surgery doesn’t change gender, gender is a social construct changed by social transition.

    For the record, race is also a social construct, racist de facto caste systems are determined by skin color but they have no scientific basis.

    Gender affirming surgery is in no way required for transition but is done for the mental well-being, quality of life, and in some cases ease of social acceptance of the individual.

    • Senal@programming.devEnglish
      4·
      8 days ago

      Genuine question, isn’t there enough genetic differentiation between certain populations that they would be considered a distinct grouping, is there a name for this ?

      Like how medically there is enough (genetic) differentiation in certain circumstances to affect diagnosis and/or treatment.

      I agree race is a social construct, especially given how it’s used, I’m just wondering if there is a name for the groupings (or if they exist at all , i suppose)

      edit: Added clarification to the differentiation to make it specifically genetic, because that could also be affected by environmental things.

      further edit: now i think about it , genetics can just be a long term accumulation of environmental pressures so it’s kinda murky anyway

      • kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
        7·
        8 days ago

        Yes, lots, but it doesn’t correspond with the social construct of race, ie. A given “black” person could be substantially more genetically similar to a given “white” person than they are to another person who would be considered a “black person.” The genotypal groupings of human populations does not comfortably correspond to phenotypal/cultural groupings of human populations.

        • Senal@programming.devEnglish
          1·
          8 days ago

          ooh, i think genotypal might be what i was thinking of.

          Where phenotypal is a mixture of environmental and genetic expression , genotypal would be exclusively the part derived from genetics.

          Would genotypal typically include epigenetics as well or only the fixed DNA based parts?

          • kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
            2·
            8 days ago

            Close but not quite, genotype is the actual dna, phenotype is the observational characteristics.

            But yes, epigenetics would fall under phenotype essentially.

      • Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.socialOPEnglish
        4·
        8 days ago

        I think there would be, but it would be very messy and you’d have to focus on specific things.

        Eg. Certain populations can’t really drink milk or there’s a tribe that has enlarged kidneys and a strong dive reflex because they swim under water a lot to hunt fish

        • Senal@programming.devEnglish
          2·
          8 days ago

          yeah, I think there’s also a people who have an adapted eye lens shape to help with underwater acuity, Sherpa’s with oxygen efficiency at high altitude etc.

          I wonder if there is a name for the taxonomic distinction here.

          Purely scientifically the Wikipedia page suggests a whole bunch of different types of biological taxonomic distinctions that could be applied, but acknowledges that definitions are all over the place and not necessarily agreed upon.

          In that sense you’d need to adjust yourself biologically, at the genetic level, to satisfy some of the definitions.

          All of that disregards the non-biological connotations of the discussion though, so not super helpful here, just interesting.

  • blarth@thelemmy.clubEnglish
    34·
    9 days ago

    Race and gender continually being used as a straw man while the elites advance their anti democratic agenda against all of us is the most ridiculous thing I’ve had to witness in this timeline.

  • Scipitie@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    21·
    9 days ago

    Don’t know her but … She got it?

    The surgery is just like the make-up, only adjusting what’s there already underneath all along! Why should a woman be less of a woman just because she has an unwanted appendix between the legs?

    And because this might be too subtle: trans X are X, before any surgery as well as after. The identification is the true self, not what some role of dice or genes made one look like at birth.

    I’m a bit afraid that this isn’t the intended message though and I’m too optimistic.

  • RizzRustbolt@lemmy.worldEnglish
    16·
    9 days ago

    Get home late from an argument you couldn’t win?

    Try blackface!

    You certainly won’t regret trying blackface to win an argument.

  • Estiar@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    15·
    9 days ago

    So

    Race is what we call a social construct. There isn’t anything substantial physically separating white people from black people or anything else. Really it’s a matter of culture and shared history. There are a couple of things that make somebody actually part of that group.

    1. How they see themselves. Do they recognize themselves as a part of this group?

    2. How society sees them. Would society recognize them as part of that group? This includes their history and ancestry as well as how society treats them based off of their looks and culture

    I can’t say for 100% certainty that she doesn’t see herself as black, but I still am 99% sure. Her own actions are incredibly unserious and I don’t think she has any real connections with the history or ancestry of Brazilian black people. She’s never had to live as that class of people either.

    Of course this is a very broad oversimplification. I’m not black but I am part of a different minority

    • Estiar@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      4·
      9 days ago

      Well I missed the gender part.

      Gender is likewise a social construct. Every human, male or female could theoretically develop into either phenotype regardless of physical characteristics that they eventually do develop. All of that is thrown out the window though when you examine our roles in society. We could have the choice of not distinguishing between us at all. Our thoughts and actions on gender have changed substantially over the past few hundred years. Between clothes and fashion and family structures, how we look at gender changes.

      1. I self-identify as a woman. I am transgender too, but some transgender women don’t actually identify as transgender if they transitioned really young. Society at large would not treat these people as “transgender women” and merely women

      2. How society treats me is a bit more up in the air though. Many people do recognize me as a woman. I have the same social role as a single woman generally has. I wear women’s clothes, I have women’s hobbies, I talk, I act, and other people treat me like a woman. I’ve even experienced misogyny, as people will talk to my male colleagues and ignore me completely. However, some people tend to just stay away from me and pretend I don’t exist. They’d say that they were gay for liking me. But this is because I’m part of a different minority, being transgender rather than because I am a woman

      Transgender women are indeed women. They will experience the same joys and the same struggles as women do. But of course they’re still transgender and they will experience the same struggles as every transgender person does.

      • EfreetSK@lemmy.worldEnglish
        6·
        9 days ago

        wear women’s clothes, I have women’s hobbies

        What are women’s hobbies actually? My wife really likes ice hockey, is that a women hobby? Men hobby? What I mean by this is, that for the past several decades we fought for that there are no “men things” and no “women things”. No gender norms, do whatever makes you happy. And now I’m like wondering where we took the wrong turn that we’re back to puting things into the little sex/gender boxes.

        I’m sorry, this isn’t targeted at you personally, I’m just thinking out loud about the society in general

        • Estiar@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          2·
          8 days ago

          Gendered hobbies is also a social construct I guess. Hobbies are still associated with men or women though. I think people with atypical hobbies are very hot. I’d be happy to let anybody do anything, even though I was denied the same opportunities when I was younger. I say denied but I think it’s more that my sister didn’t want to share.