- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- europe@lemmy.ml
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1 in 5 young Germans are pretty ignorant about how good they have it in Germany.
“hope to find” is not a great plan.
I tend to agree with you, but, having lived many years in other countries, I can tell you, you have to leave to appreciate it. Traveling gives you perspective.
I lived in France for two years and spent a good deal of time in Germany. There are areas of extreme poverty, even in the most advanced EU countries. But the linked article and study exaggerates the reality of it in comparison to the rest of the world.
Okay, hear me out. If a bunch of germans want to go to different countries and a bunch of people want to go to germany from different countries, you could just make immigration easier and allow a constant flow of people arround the eu. We already know international exchange programs are good for people, so im guessing moving to a new country also is. You get a new perspective, learn a new language, have to adjust to new conditions, etc, all really good things to learn in the long run.
No borders No nations Free migrations?
The contention is that people want to leave in part because of high immigration. Germany is not like America. Everyone is entitled to generous social benefits. After many years of high rates of refugee admissions (especially following the Syrian Refugee Crisis), the national budget is becoming very difficult to balance. Taxes continue to rise for everyone, and services are harder to get. Even visiting the doctor can be very difficult now in many cities. Many GPs aren’t taking any new patients. Many young Germans argue that the social contract is broken. The state prioritises the welfare of new arrivals and the elderly, and ignores the needs of the young.
Of course there are also many other factors. Germany’s decision to prematurely shut down its nuclear reactors will go down in history as one of the worst political and strategic decisions in history. It caused electricity prices to skyrocket and has decimated Germany’s previously impressive manufacturing sectors. They also have cultural issues embracing technological efficiency improvements. Most government departments still run by fax machine (by law). Most paperwork must be handled physically. Most Germans still prefer cash. Etc.
Ultimately I agree with you directionally - provided Germany liberalises its immigration only for high earners. This has been the major contention. A very high number of immigrants are low or no skill, and cost the state an enormous amount. This is causing massive economic and social issues. If Germany halted all low/no skilled immigration, sentiment would improve for high skilled immigration. Young people might feel like the social contract were not being torn up.
Edit: the level of discussion here is worse than anything I have ever experienced on Reddit. All replies are some variation of “nuh uh.”
The contention is that people want to leave in part because of high immigration.
No, they want to get out before lying right-wing morons, their rich media allies and all the propaganda victims (pick which group you belong to, though I have my suspicion…) demolish the country in preparation for getting fascists into power again. Because some of us were actually awake in school.
There is basically nobody who leaves because of a high level of immigration. Its either people who welcome immigrants or ones that will fight tooth and nail to have immigrants everywhere but their country. They will try to get them deported but not leave their own country cause that very flawed logic itself also prevents them from assimilating to other cultures. The national budget on the other hand is fucked because of reckless and unbalanced spending rather than immigrants, spain for example functions because of immigrants. Look at the stark contrast between portugal and spain, one just “deals” with immigration, the other thrives with immigration. The economy is shit in every single country basically so you cant really blame it on immigrants when countries with 0%, 1% and 30% immigrant populations are being hit equally. For fucks sake theres a war in ukraine, gaza and iran, all of which contribute to this and all of which are completely unnecessary. The immigration crisis from syria is also kinda the wests fault but thats a different discussion. I cant really comment on such domestic issues cause i dont have that much insight but from what i hear, the social contract is mainly “failing”(putting that in quotes because you make it sound like theres a better alternative) in the areas of public transit and public builings, havent heard of very large problems with the healthcare other than overdiagnosis(this is something a german doctor friend said, once again not my own experience). Overdoagnosis being a problem where doctors follow precedures 1 to 1 and test for a million different things that dont really affect you and the treatment often causes more harm. Of course this is not about cancer and such but rarer, “less important” diseases.
The fax and nuclear reactors are were/are horrible decisions but i dont think thats something that would effect emmigration so directly. In general germany should modernise, but this is true for every sector in germany and also in general for every european country without the exception of like estonia.
As for the low/no skill argument, brother, you are either stupid af or racist. Most syrian immigrants(and others from the middle east and tbf the rest of the world) who came to europe used to have means and education. The ones who could escape syria often were the better off ones with companies and degrees. Its enough to spend like 2 seconds with any immigrant and all of them are doctors and entrepreneurs and whatever but they had to leave their life in the middle east cause they were escaping from a fucking war. Doctors licenses from the middle east are not valid in europe. I know nurses who sell doughnuts and doctors who had to redo their whole university education(6+ years) to be able to practition in europe. The only people spreading the “low skill” argument are people who are racists or the ones who believe and follow the racists.
As a German I need to tell you: nope. Nothing in your comment makes sense. Please don’t try to educate people about stuff you are clueless.
At least you are a good example for the Dunning Krüger effect.
The contention is that people want to leave in part because of high immigration. Germany is not like America. Everyone is entitled to generous social benefits. After many years of high rates of refugee admissions (especially following the Syrian Refugee Crisis), the national budget is becoming very difficult to balance. Taxes continue to rise for everyone, and services are harder to get. Even visiting the doctor can be very difficult now in many cities. Many GPs aren’t taking any new patients. Many young Germans argue that the social contract is broken. The state prioritises the welfare of new arrivals and the elderly, and ignores the needs of the young.
National budget is definitely not bad because billionaires in Germany pay zero taxes on their incomes and inheritance while entire tax burden is taken by value producing working class. /S
The social contract is broken, because workers pay taxes and billionaires and multi millionaires don’t. While govt takes away 35% fruit of my labour even before I see it, multi millionaires and billionaires don’t even generate any fruits, while taking truck loads of fruits away from economy and people who generate fruits. The social contract is broken because of the generational thief of billionaire class.
Other than that, I agree most of what you have to say. The German superiority complex is also a big problem.
All replies are some variation of “nuh uh.”
Maybe that’s because you don’t cite sources and your message is bullshit.
Ugh, where do you even get these talking points? They are all complete bullshit 🤦 Like I don’t even know where to start because they all completely mix up facts and imply completely wrong causations.
Is this what Elon’s propaganda outlet tells Americans about Germany these days?
Edit: apparently you are from Denmark? That makes it even worse. How detached from reality can a person be?
Yo, a Pole here. Can you explain what the commenter misrepresented and what’s the reality in Germany? I am curious.
I am assuming that like in the rest of the Europe, everyone gets healthcare and education, and that jobless do get welfare, as well as sick people. I can also see that your senior numbers are growing compared to young, so more of the budgets goes to supplement the pension schemes?
(And I don’t think Germany needs skilled/unskilled migrants to fill in open positions, as Germany has what, 3M unemployed people that could be retrained for them)
I’m not the other commenter, but as a German, I can try to answer from my subjective view. Given you asked about the other comment specifically, I guess I’ll quote and respond to that.
The contention is that people want to leave in part because of high immigration. Germany is not like America. Everyone is entitled to generous social benefits. After many years of high rates of refugee admissions (especially following the Syrian Refugee Crisis), the national budget is becoming very difficult to balance. Taxes continue to rise for everyone, and services are harder to get. Even visiting the doctor can be very difficult now in many cities. Many GPs aren’t taking any new patients. Many young Germans argue that the social contract is broken. The state prioritises the welfare of new arrivals and the elderly, and ignores the needs of the young.
Those are far-right and right-extremist views and talking points. While we do have issues in the mentioned areas, immigration as a cause is largely a scapegoat, certainly when voiced like here, as the sole or primary reason for systemic issues or injustices.
The OP article goes into reasons of why people are dissatisfied or want to emigrate. None of what they mention involves immigrants or immigration. So it certainly doesn’t seem to be a primary concern. Unfortunately, the article doesn’t link to the study itself, and the link to the German source article is broken (links to itself).
Of course there are also many other factors. Germany’s decision to prematurely shut down its nuclear reactors will go down in history as one of the worst political and strategic decisions in history. It caused electricity prices to skyrocket and has decimated Germany’s previously impressive manufacturing sectors. They also have cultural issues embracing technological efficiency improvements. Most government departments still run by fax machine (by law). Most paperwork must be handled physically. Most Germans still prefer cash. Etc.
Nuclear is vastly more expensive than renewables. Building a reactor takes a decade, and costs explode. I don’t think they’re a solution. We have systematic issues in our energy systems, some technical, some political. Nuclear is not it. Our transfer network does not keep up, and we determine energy prices by most costly provider in the mix, and we tax a lot, with different kinds of taxes.
I doubt “most run by fax by law” is still correct. Our government services are certainly not the most innovative, and it takes time, and fax is still part of some things, but it’s not that bad - at least no everywhere.
I don’t think that other people using cash is a primary issue for people wanting to emigrate. The points raised in the article are much more convincing.
Ultimately I agree with you directionally - provided Germany liberalises its immigration only for high earners. This has been the major contention. A very high number of immigrants are low or no skill, and cost the state an enormous amount. This is causing massive economic and social issues. If Germany halted all low/no skilled immigration, sentiment would improve for high skilled immigration. Young people might feel like the social contract were not being torn up.
Germany doesn’t need only “high earners”. The right wing will always scapegoat. They’re already making stuff up and misrepresenting. A different immigration system won’t stop that. If other systematic issues are not resolved, people will remain gullible to this, our of frustration. “High earners coming and taking our jobs” seems much more scary than “low income workers coming and taking those jobs”.
Basically: The whole public sector is underfunded af and the system as a whole has been crumbling for years/decades. Young people don’t want to have children anymore, as the world is going to shit and you can barely make ends meet even if both parents are working full time. The median age is going up, more people are retiring, younger people are expected to pay ever increasing taxes and healthcare costs, while our politicians are, quite literally, telling us “All of this is your fault. You’ll need to work harder. 40h a week is not enough. We might also have to take away your healthcare. A wealth tax or any actual reform isn’t happening, btw. Get bent.”.
As far as that other persons comment goes: those are simply standard right-wing talking points. They are blaming immigrants/refugees for systemic issues, often while opposing any actual reform. If immigration is putting additional strain on the healthcare system, then you could a) kick out the migrants, b) help them find a foothold in Germany, give them work permits and turn them into tax payers, or c) change some of the systemic issues of our healthcare system (e.g. people with higher wages can opt-out of public healthcare and instead get, often cheaper, private healthcare plans while rich people without any income don’t have to pay into the system at all).
In the end, it just boils down to late stage capitalism, like anywhere else in the western world.
Did you actually read the original post? That is not at all what they said.
For example implying immigrants are the reason why social security budgets are tight or you can’t get an appointment with your GP is rediculous. The exact opposite is the case. Immigrants are mostly healthy adults that (after a while at least) pay more into social security then they will likely ever get out of it and definitly don’t clog up GP’s offices (on the contrary, they form a big part of the staff, nurses etc.). Old Germans on the other hand…
And the rest is similar BS that couldn’t be further from the truth.
Germany is not like America. Everyone is entitled to generous social benefits.
This is patently false.
Are you making a technical point of contention on a specific case, or broadly disagreeing? Germany’s social services are as expansive as they are expensive.
You are incorrect on all points and I refuse to believe you actually live in Europe. You write like an alien who’s only had access to 4chan and /r/redscarepod
Do you actually know what you are talking about? Because apparently not 🤦
Well I read the article and know that it does not give any reasons for why these people want to emigrate, which indicates to me that this question probably was not asked in the survey. You got any basis for what you claim or is this just 100% anecdotes, feelings, and a stringing-together of right-wing talking points?
I read the article and know that it does not give any reasons for why these people want to emigrate, which indicates to me that this question probably was not asked in the survey.
I read the article - which gives various reasons for dissatisfaction and issues for the youth - as those are the reasons people are dissatisfied and want to emigrate.
Reasons for dissatisfaction can be different from reasons for emigration. They might be a subset, a superset, or have no overlap whatsoever. I am also dissatisfied about certain things, but these things are no reason for me to leave the country. So what makes them leave? Is it immigration like the commenter suggested? Is it the rise of anti-immigrant political parties that threaten democracy? Is it both? Neither? Something else? The article does not say. Hell, one reason why people say “I want to emigrate” could be that they don’t know what the word means, or how the question was phrased together with the tendency of survey respondents to respond in the affirmative.
At the very least, it’s not the article that makes the causal connection but the study, at least its press release.
Der Druck auf die junge Generation steigt und die Chancen, diesen gerecht zu werden, schwinden. Dauerkrisen, unsichere berufliche Perspektiven, Schulden und mentaler Stress prägen die Lebenslage vieler junger Menschen. Als Reaktion wenden sie sich den politischen Rändern zu oder denken sogar daran, Deutschland zu verlassen. Das ist die zentrale Botschaft der neunten Trendstudie „Jugend in Deutschland“
We’ll either have to trust that or not. But there’s no real indication that the causality is not there. To verify the claim we’d need access to the study.
The contention is that people want to leave in part because of high immigration.
I’m pretty sure the demographic that thinks about going to other places is also the demographic that overwhelmingly does not have any issue with immigration.
While all the things you list are issues, the main reasons why people want to leave are others.
- high taxes and related expenses like healthcare, retirement
- high regulation
- better wages for qualified labor in other countries
- failure to modernize and use computers
- worsening education
- crumbling infrastructure
- stagnant wages
Soon you might need to have pay for health care, retirement, school, etc. yourself in Germany to get quality. You might as well move to a country where the state doesn’t run these things and pay for private everything.
The article is very negative, so I assume the study results are too.
It would be nice if we could see it as the European idea of free movement and exchange between countries. With most Germans emigrating to Switzerland, Austria, and Spain - that is the European idea of a union, free movement, and free personal exploration. People leaving Germany is a national view. They are European citizens.
The article is very negative, so I assume the study results are too.
Which will always -and completely independent of the topic- be wrong.
Articles are negative because it gets more clicks and that’s all that matters. If the underlying topic fits or needs to be totally misrepresented is irrelevant.
Click-, engagement- and rage-bait > facts
And as adequate auto-translation is widely available: here is the neutral 3-page summary of the study in German.
Thank you for linking the study document.
I don’t think the article is any more negative than the study summary you label neutral in terms of causes. Both list various issues, in a similar way.
With that Germany is about EU average. However there are also a lot of reasons to stay in Germany, like a still relatively strong job market and still relatively innovative regions(both compared on an EU level).
Still something German politicians would be wise to keep in mind. Those things can change and will, given that the German economy is stagnant right now and there are some massive head winds.
However there are also a lot of reasons to stay in Germany
With an easily overlooked one being that the actual problems in Germany are not Germany-specific at all.
Political shift to the right, stagnating wages, bad housing market, an aging population calling the shots and giving a fuck about the future? Pick one (or a few) and tell me where to go instead… Moving in the exact same direction but a few years behind is basically the best you can get. And that’s a bad reason to leave your life behind and lose a few years to start fresh.
This is most likely a nothingburger, because other age groups have the same rate of emigration willing people. In German: https://tube.funfacts.de/w/uV2VJ1XmsG2MMgqQTekmFD Edit: machine translation of the video transcript: There are many quality criteria for scientific studies.
Can the results be representatively applied to the average society? How were the methods evaluated? That’s what we wanted to directly verify with this youth trend study. But you have to buy it on the authors website for €73.90. That’s €73 more than I earn today. And they’d probably also deduct the 9 cents for the glass of tap water. Join the gang! What we did find out for free on the study aurhors website. The study—the author seems quite proud of it—is known, among other things, from Lanz und Brecht and Gemischtes Hack. Those are actually nice podcasts, at least one of them. But still nothing I’d use to promote my scientific credibility. I might as well have the Amigos sing my study. We tried to find a license-free photo of Markus Lanz, but mostly found photos he uploaded to Wiki Comments. So, here’s our photo with Markus Lanz. He photographs a lot of birds—I don’t know why. We have different audiences and different platforms. So, to all the young women on Instagram and TikTok, we see you, we hear you. And to all the old men on YouTube, Lanz und Brecht is not a science podcast. The €73.90 also includes appealing infographics. We didn’t have the money for that, so we just made up an infographic. This study is basically the Galileo of scientific works. So, let’s get back to emigration. 21 percent of young people want to emigrate according to this trend study. That’s the same as the national average. Pretty wild, if you ask me. Average is already wild. Or, to put it in terms for Galileo viewers, that’s ten football fields in Saarland.
Emigrate to where exactly? These modern problems seem to be pretty universal so far….
As someone who was born outside of Germany but now lives here (with no immediate plans for going anywhere else) I regularly ask myself this question. Obviously many Germans seek economic opportunity in Switzerland, but the Swiss seem to really have about enough of all these immigrants. Then there might be other destinations that some people also bring up like Denmark, Sweden or Norway, but these fail to even break the top 20 destinations statistically.
In 2024 most emigrations seem to be in the context of people returning to their other European home countries. Out of the statistical top 20 only Spain/Italy (climate, retirement) Switzerland (economic opportunity) and the United States (again, economic opportunity, but recently with more people moving from the United States to Germany than the other way around) sound like plausible targets for German emigration at scale.
In all likelihood this could just be part of the general “mopiness” that seems to be prevalent in German culture.
Nordic countries, Denmark, Sweden, Norway
The Netherlands, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Canada, Australia
Things are pretty good here in Denmark. We rank higher than the U.S. in ease of doing business, and our economy is strong. This means good wages and low rates of poverty. Americans are surprised to learn that we don’t even have a minimum wage. It’s also very easy to fire people, unlike most of our European neighbours. On the other hand, we have strong social safety nets to catch people if they are fired, and give them enough time to find a new job. We also have universal healthcare, meaning no one is desperate to remain in a bad workplace to keep their health insurance. This levels the bargaining power between employers and employees, and results in much fairer workplaces and wages.
I think the best combination for prosperity is pretty clear: a strong, dynamic economy with low regulations and a strong work ethic; and an expansive social safety net paid for by high taxes. For the record, other nations I think are doing pretty well right now include Norway, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia, and Singapore. This is not to say those nations have no problems. Of course they do. I mean that in aggregate, when we look at the many factors which produce prosperous societies, these countries are doing well right now, and have positioned themselves to continue doing well into the future. I will also add that I think many places in the U.S. continue to be great places to live with excellent economic prospects. Say what you will about the president, but the U.S. is a huge and diverse place. It’s full of bright entrepreneurs.
I found his trend study here,( German pdf) His sample was around 2K youngster , and his findings have ca. 2% error margin iiuc. He’s been publishing regularly since corona epidemic according to his website. What called my attention was especially this worrisome quote, which might explain what’s going on:
" The proportion of young people who say they need psychological support has also reached a new peak of 29 percent. Women, at 34 percent, and students, at 32 percent, are particularly affected by this psychological strain. Among young Germans without a job, 42 percent likewise rely on psychological support services."
I’m not sure how this trend compares to other ( European) countries, but I remember reading similar trends in several countries for years since the Corona epidemic. These issues require much more serious attention, studies and rapid & adequate solutions imo.
Add; just posted a comparative study here
Auf der anderen Seite ist das Gras immer grüner
I wonder how this compares to similar euro countries? It’s only polling youth 29 down to 14 year olds, of course they dream of adventure elsewhere. What kid thinks their perfect life is in their hometown?
By emigrating you exchange problems from your own country you know, for problems of another country you don’t know.
Exchange problems that you’re sick of, for problems you’re not yet sick of. Move every few years until you’ve become sick of all possible problems. Then you’ll be ready to solve them all.
Moving to a country with a language you can’t read is peaceful because you can’t read ad slogans or yellow paper headlines.
If you have tried solving the problems and failed then an exchange is the smart decision.
But most of the time you are not changing the problems. They are just framed slightly different elsewhere but still the same.
They’re not going to find things to be any different anywhere else. They probably don’t realise how many young people want to imigrate to places like Germany; the country with the highest immigration figures of EU born people.
It should be no shock that times are the way they are now for young people. There’s been generational neglect for decades.
They probably don’t realise how many young people want to imigrate to places like Germany;
Of the 14 to 29 year olds, more than 20% should have a migration background. It could be that most of the 20% are immigrants who want to move on because Germany is not as good as they or their parents thought.
In 2024, most Germans, regardless of age, settled in Switzerland, which was home to around 324,000 German citizens.
That doesn’t seem like the most obvious place, as it’s one of the few places in Europe that isn’t in the EU and to which German citizens don’t have an automatic right to move to.
Borders are open. Switzerland did not join the EU (by a 0.1% vote margin in 1997 IIRC), but through three consecutive agreements is very closely aligned with and integrated to the EU, including free movement and work (IIRC).
EU/EFTA citizens get automatic residents permits in Switzerland, if they have a job in Switzerland. They can even work in Switzerland without a permit for up to three months. So this is mostly not an issue. Switzerland is also one of the few countries in Europe, which is significantly richer then Germany and partly German speaking.
It’s very wealthy and AFAIK has low taxes, though. But I’m not sure that Switzerland has a better housing situation.
But also, it’s not particularly surprising that Germans are settling in a German-speaking country (even if the local accent/dialect is quite different).
What the actual fuck.
To where, Ukraine or Iran
No north korea obviously.
No, seriously, you think you are funny?
