I assume this has been covered already (I’m new), and I welcome recommendations of existing material! (E.g. Imperialism by Lenin seems like it’d be relevant)

I’m reading State and Revolution, and am trying to map it to the conditions in the US.

From chapter 2 (emphasis mine):

The overthrow of bourgeois rule can be accomplished only by the proletariat, the particular class whose economic conditions of existence prepare it for this task and provide it with the possibility and the power to perform it. While the bourgeoisie break up and disintegrate the peasantry and all the petty-bourgeois groups, they weld together, unite and organize the proletariat. Only the proletariat — by virtue of the economic role it plays in large-scale production — is capable of being the leader of all the working and exploited people, whom the bourgeoisie exploit, oppress and crush, often not less but more than they do the proletarians, but who are incapable of waging an independent struggle for their emancipation.

My understanding is that large-scale production has largely been moved outside of the US. I imagine this is also true of most imperial core countries.

If that’s true, doesn’t it follow that the US has a small, relatively weak proletariat?

And if THAT’S true, what’s the path to revolution in the US? Without a powerful proletariat, there can’t be a proletarian revolution, right?

I could see one answer being:

  1. Weaken US imperialism (e.g. through revolutions in imperial periphery)
  2. US is forced to re-develop it’s own productive capacity
  3. Developed productive capacity results in strong proletariat
  4. (Wait for contradictions to sharpen?)
  5. Revolution

Another (more likely?) could be:

  1. Get conquered

In both of those cases, the immediate work is to weaken the power of the US as a whole, right?

What are the main tools the US uses to project power, and how could orgs weaken them from within? Organize, obviously, but organize to do what? Mutual aid and unions seem clear, anything else?


I’d also be curious about any work on other paths to revolution in the imperial core. This might be straying outside of Marxist-Leninism, but has there been any theory around a revolution lead by a different class?

E.g. perhaps a deeply racist country could have a revolution based on race? …though the majority of people in the US are white. E.g. the black panthers were threatening enough that the state infiltrated and killed them.


Anyway. Interested in y’all’s thoughts - sorry if these are basic questions.

  • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.netM
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    Office workers are still proletarian for the most part, same with service workers. They all play a part in the production and distribution of commodities for the accumulation of business owners. A helpful way to think about class is to understand the relations to production and distribution, not the specific job.

    An artist can be petite bourgeoisie if they own their own tools and self-publish, or they may be proletarian and produce for a company based on wage-labor. This struggle between proletarianization and independence actually colors the class character of artists, and also impacts other fields like engineering. A great example of this can be found in Stalin’s Shoemaker.

    The primary problems with the US Empire are that it is a settler-colony, and that the spoils of imperialism are used to provide cheap treats to reduce revolutionary potential. This two-fold problem is why the US Empire has a deeply reactionary labor aristocracy, however at the moment imperialism is in clear decay, causing a cost of living crisis.

    You are correct that industrial labor has been exported to the global south, but this is largely a shift towards financial capital over industrial capital, which results in deindustrialization and imperialism. Proletarians in the global south are super-exploited for super-profits, cemented by millitary and financial domination, sanctions, and embargoes.

    There’s also unequal exchange, where higher tech and skilled labor is kept monopolized in the global north, allowing for monopoly prices to be charged in north-south trade. They call this part “value add,” but this obscures the predatory monopolistic relationship going on. This is also where China is breaking up imperialism quite well, by facilitating south-south trade and helping end this tech monopoly.

    Settler-colonialism, however, remains a huge part of how the US Empire functions, and needs to also be addressed. Decolonizing Turtle Island is an important line of struggle for any Statesian org to focus on. Some orgs do put some focus on it, but it seems more neglected than combatting imperialism. Both are crucial.

    If you haven’t already, I do recommend engaging with theories of imperialism, neocolonialism, and neoimperialism. Same with national liberation. All of it is crucial for understanding how to organize in the belly of the beast.

    • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      I will mildly disagree, just in terms of how I personally tend to frame these things. Agreed for all the settler colonial aspects however.

      This isn’t a strict reading of Marx, Engels or Lenin, but I have found it useful in terms of understanding things and organizing them appropriately only in so far as office and service workers are the tertiary proletariat, with the industrial proletariat being secondary proletarians, and agricultural/construction being primary proletarians.

      We are at a point in time where the majority of our proletarians are tertiary, however, that doesn’t mean there aren’t a bunch of people in the primary and secondary tiers. However, there are more people in the primary and secondary tiers, both absolutely and by percentage of their populations in the neo-colonies.

      These are ordered abit more liberally, based more into Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the needs of historical and modern industrial capacity. Indeed, much of China’s organizational and administrative work appears to be around these models of priority. However, they have to work in concert to be effective, so it is like saying the heart is secondary to the lungs. A useful model only if you are in triage, which is how I view the left in the U.S.

      You can sometimes convince an office worker of their worth, but getting them to organize in a way that is truly effective is far more difficult.

      Edit: And organizing the construction/agricultural sector comes with its own sets of difficulties, in particular, the overwhelming precarious and seasonal nature of the employment.

      • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.netM
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        There’s definitely unique circumstances for each subsection of the proletariat, but I would not categorize them as distinct classes. That’s the important bit that I am trying to get across, the US Empire does indeed have a huge proletariat, but this proletariat has its own unique characteristics that color how we have to organize.

    • dil [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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      24 days ago

      Thank you! I knew I needed a deeper understanding of imperialism, will add the rest to the list. I already have Settlers on my shelf - are there others you’d recommend?

      New question: who isn’t proletarian? Or maybe more broadly: what are the definitions/characteristics of the different classes? I’ve heard of lumpenproletariat, peasantry, proletariat, working-class, labor aristocracy, middle-class, petit-bourgeoisie, bourgeoisie, capitalist, and maybe more. I’m sure some of them are synonyms. I know this isn’t new ground and I’ll google around myself, but if you know good resources off the top of your head I’d appreciate it!

      Does the sector one works in affect one’s class? It seems like no, and e.g. tech/finance bros are proletariat bc their wage-labor produces capital for business owners.

      • Juice@midwest.social
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        Others to recommend : Imperialism: the highest stage of Capitalism by Lenin also Wretched of the Earth by Franz Fanon for analysis of the national struggle under neo colonialism, racism, etc.,

        Who isnt proletarian? The bourgeoisie. Middle classes are synthetic classes that are unstable under capitalism, their character differs from time to time, place to place. Practically, the concrete interests of petite bourg and middle classes must be split, dragging along a significant portion. This is where politics and organizing is very important.

        Lumpen is more of a class character than an actual class, it only exists as an indirect relation to the reserve army of capital, but Marx’s analysis of the Lumpen population in the 18th Brumaire is extremely relevant to us in many ways.

        The sector reflects industrial class interests, there are parts of a sector that have different class character than others. The idea is to organize a whole industry rather than smaller craft unions, like where teachers, admin, and service workers all have different unions and contracts in the same building. That is related to labor and union organizing which also often involves resistance to entrenched bureaucracies, creating democratic reform caucuses etc.,

        Edit: figuring out exactly what your local conditions are, what their class characteristics are, and organizing on that basis is what we need to be focused on in our day to day. This looks more like talking with people, power mapping and list work than trying to fit people into the categories.

        Getting out of the habit of making categories out of everything is an essential step in the process of radicalizing. Marxism isnt a new way of making categories it is a way of determining our actual conditions. Name the actual problem you and others in your network face, and help others name the problem, do not start with the names of problems and build abstractions from them.

      • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.netM
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        Settlers is good! I’d personally start with Lenin’s Imperialism, the Current Highest Stage of Capitalism, then explore Nkrumah’s Neocolonialism, the Last Stage of Imperialism and then Cheng Enfu’s Five Characteristics of Neoimperialism. All of these help trace how late stage capitalism has dealt with its own existence in decay, as international plunder morphing over time.

        As for what defines a proletarian, it’s someone who sells their labor power to a capitalist to produce commodities. An example of a proletarian engineer is one who works for a firm, and is paid in wages, while a petite bourgeois engineer would be a small business owner that takes their pay in profits. The peasantry typically pay rent in kind, ie they give up a portion of what they produce and keep the rest, bartering it or selling it on the market for what they don’t produce. Sectors do have impact, but not as a different class, but different strata of the same class.

  • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    Yes. There is a sizable proletariat in the U.S. The issue is that they are no longer concentrated in the largest cities, with the service, real estate, tech and finance industries taking their place as the primary economic driver in those areas, instead dominating the economics of medium, small, and rural cities and towns.

    However, that is also their weakness, as they cannot move towards the cities to take advantage of cheap labor because the upfront real estate costs are too expensive. That is the real predicament of American manufacturing. The solution that they have decided on is, of course, automation, but the issue still remains that you have to be able to attract the engineering talent to these rural areas. It still remains an issue of labor.

    However, what that means is that the proletariat in the U.S. is uniquely separated and weak. Which of course was a purposeful, if short-sighted, decision by the neo-liberals. They sacrificed the empire they built to prevent labor from having a say in matters.

    Edit: You cannot have a revolution based on race, as race is a flexible social category. There are plenty of Latino men who identify as ‘white’, even if they would never be recognized as such in WASP circles. The reason the Black Panthers specifically were targeted was because they were the only large black radical group that was actively seeking larger, multi-racial, coalition building, of the proletariat.

    However, lots of ink has been spilled around revolutions based on nationality and anti-imperialism, and that revolutions for national sovereignity of former colonial holdings are usually progressive forces in history, though nationalism itself is ultimately regressive in the long term.

    • dil [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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      Thanks!

      Looking at the other comments, I think I was mistaken in assuming that ‘large-scale manufacturing’ was only factory-style production. I like the ideas about different strata or primary/secondary categories of the proletariat.

      Race is definitely a flexible category, but is often treated as if it were black and white (pun intended). Agree that a big part of the panthers’ power was that they were building a multiracial coalition, and I considered noting that in the original post. I guess I was picturing a similar ‘leading class’ that was race- or identity-based. Which tbh feels kinda icky to consider, and would surely lead to similar (if not worse) long-term problems that nationalism, but I think the reality is that the US is super duper racist. Shouldn’t our strategy take that into account? I’ve heard that Lenin wasn’t afraid to get his hands dirty - is there a case to be made for leveraging race/identity in service of revolution? E.g. in the mold of the panthers’ rainbow coalition, with smaller, identity-based groups working together. The overall final product should still be an organized proletariat, but the way there is, again, icky.

      • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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        I don’t think it works like that, at least in the imperial core. I get where you are coming from, but let me elaborate.

        The issue of ‘race’ v.s. ‘class’ is the difference between ‘identification’ v.s. ‘action’. Anybody can identify as anything they want, as long as their identification is backed with legal force. Hell, you can even identify as things in spite of it being legal. It is the functional definition of subjectivity. And there is nothing WRONG with that method of analysis, if you want to tell stories. And stories are great.

        However, as any good engineer will tell you, if you want to build something, you need at least have some real numbers. Not everything, even engineering requires alot of praxis, but enough to start somewhere.

        For Marxists, this is ‘class’ because class isn’t based on how you identify, it is based on what you do, how you literally sustain your life. It is an easier category to create something closer to resembling objectivity. It at least resembles the kind of objectivity seen in other physical sciences, which for the purposes of analysis, is close enough. Certainly a better predictive mechanism for people way way on the outside of polite society, most of the time superior to mainstream news.

        Like you’d be surprised at how much information you can get from just, looking at the history of tariffs and then placing them in the context of ours and realizing what a hilarious idea it is in modern times. Tariffs only worked when we could force open markets, and we just got our asses handed to us. This is some real 1910’s logic for the 2020’s.

        Anyways, tangent aside, in a subjective, identity based world, marketing is king, because the market determines truth. We can never hope to overcome the capitalists in the market (at least as far as we, the American proletariat, are concerned, China is ofc another story). It is no surprise that communism took hold strongest in the areas that had the least access to English media.

        However, life, like a town, is not just one big market. Lots of people desperately seek things outside the market, and it crops up in extremely odd ways (e.g. swinger culture in the Midwest). And it is outside the market, in the material, closer to objectivity world (not actually objective though as our ability to describe and interact with true objectivity is approaching infinity, but never crossing). It is that world, where we thrive. Where I can get a 22 y/o Latina woman and 45 y/o white redneck to agreed that it is clear that the management doesn’t have our best interests at heart, and look into organizing meetings outside of work. Issue for me is that I jump jobs a bunch (as an in-demand engineer), as well as I am not really a leader.

        Anyways, my point is that, I have seen these arguments work countless times on countless people, and I’m fairly certain it is not because I am conventionally attractive. Idk if it is viable larger, but I have seen a lot of white and black people identify with their respective race of billionaires than their neighbors. Shit runs deep in this country.

        Like I have a good friend (we trade food), who is like one of maybe three black men in the whole town. Guy is super outspoken, incredibly popular in town, is extremely socially liberal, but also identifies more with bar owners in town than the bar tenders, despite being a bar tender. Identifies as a conservative Christian though. Can’t stand Trump. Real true incoherent American. But like, I softened him on China within like one hour, just discussing poverty alleviation programs and the way they run elections, and I am slowly getting him around to class. These things are possible.

  • Chana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    25 days ago

    The vast majority of the US is proletarian. But it is shielded from the (in isolation, correct) predictions about the nature of the proletariat through imperialism, both because imperialism itself brings undue spoils (like a federal government that can fund anything it wants when it chooses to) and because the imperial apparatus itself turns inwards with great intensity, creating, for example, globally powerful propaganda that is applied nowhere more strongly than in the US itself.

    Regarding production and the proletariat, one most remember that commodities are very broadly defined. The US has a very large gdp even if you cut out the financial nonsense. It “produces” a lot in capitalist terms even though industrially it is hollowing itself out. Though it’s actually finance and related sectors that actually weaken the US proletariat in the sense of their ability to make material demands based on disrupting production. It’s not because the US doesn’t make anything, it’s because large sectors actually make money through the destruction of industry, from offshoring, from big tech bubbles searching for financialized monopoly.

    With that said, if the US proletariat united and acted in concert they could accomplish incredible things. Their limitation is their consciousness, shaped by all these aforementioned relations.

    • dil [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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      Regarding production and the proletariat, one most remember that commodities are very broadly defined. The US has a very large gdp even if you cut out the financial nonsense

      Is the financial nonsense still ‘production’? In one sense, it certainly produces finance capital. But also… is providing a loan really ‘production’?

      • Chana [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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        24 days ago

        Re: Marxism, finance itself is not productive in the capitalist political economical sense. It is, at best, more of a necessary element to “grease the wheels” and should be a subordinate feature as it is actually more of a cost than anything. It weighs on production even as it is necessary under capitalist anarchic production to get certain things going. One of the greatest detriments to those in the imperial core is the extent to which finance weighs upon the average person (even as they also benefit from imperialism!). It is the bulk of the reason why housing is so expensive, for example. That’s 50-80% of a common person’s paycheck right there and it didn’t produce anything, it just creates a speculation and investment “market” with deep layering of financial nonsense. College tuition is similar. There are similar rent seeking and leech industries like medical insurance that similarly drive up the burden. A burgerlander might get paid $80k/year for some job but then need to go into $200k medical debt. When countries keep these costs down they achieve more with less. Euros keep medical insurance at bay with various strategies. China handles all of these things fairly proactively except for the misstep with real estate that is now being fixed (at great cost!).

        So short answer is “no but sometimes it’s necessary under capitalism”.

  • Juice@midwest.social
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    24 days ago

    You maybe shouldn’t jump straight to mapping Lenin’s conditions directly onto ours. That isnt historical materialism. What Lenin did, was use HM to determine his own conditions. In Russia there was a weak bourgeoisie, mostly lawyers and doctors, some smaller factories; along side an 80 year old revolutionary movement that, at the time of its writing, had just overthrown the tzar through Soviet power. Lenin had just returned from exile and Bolsheviks were still debating Lenin’s April thesis.

    His definitions of things are not static, they are based in his own conditions. He isnt saying “this is how the proletariat is defined for all time” he’s saying what it looks like in Russia, and to some extent other countries such as Germany. Were the Soviets significantly stronger than worker power in our time, in the west? Yes. Was Russian bourgeoisie weaker than the empire of Capital? Undoubtedly. In fact Lenin had only months earlier successfully theorized and identified capitalist empire, as it was in a stage of development that was objectively and materially realized, but not yet hegemonically, totally dominating. That wouldnt happen until after WW2.

    You’re asking a lot of good questions. Actually Marx spent the last ten years of his life studying how societies transitioned from one form to another. In his time he saw the word transitioning from feudalism to capital. In his time, all production was being directed by capital, that is the economic base; but in most of the world, the formal power was still in the hands of kings, queens, and noble classes. Revolutionary theory is the theory of changes in the real world.

    Anyway, Marx produced two cubic meters of handwritten notes about, among other things, how Russian peasant communes, called the Mir, might have evolved into socialism. basically working to disprove the social democratic ideal associated with Marx, that socialism could only evolve from capitalism. Considering the Russian “Soviet” was a worker council-led union, organized like a German or English union by people basically raised in the Mir, Marx was eerily accurate in his area of focus.

    This was exactly the point that Lenin was making in State and Rev. The Bolsheviks wanted a bourgeois revolution, let capitalists develop the MoP and then overthrow them, and Lenin is trying to convince (and by August/September he has largely accomplished this, in no small part due to the publishing of S&R) the Bolsheviks that the Proletariat is revolutionary now and must overthrow both the Bourg and the monarchy, and create a worker state. By this point it is clear that the bourg are going to give power back to king Nick in the form of a parliamentary constitutional monarchy. That is why the Bolsheviks were the only faction in Russia that could have seized power. The bourg was too weak and stupid, and they needed the old state bureaucracy, itself deeply monarchist in character, in order to seize state power; which meant concessions to Nick, which meant continued war, slaughter and martial law via Kornilov, and death sentences for fleeing soldiers.

    At this point, the challenge the Bolsheviks were having was keeping the revolution from happening too early, or not in a coordinated way. In fact many prominent Bolsheviks wanted it delayed even further, and were even moderate on the question of a proletarian vs a bourgeois revolution. But the Bolsheviks were a very well disciplined party, capable of communicating clear and accurate information across all different strata of the toiling classes. For example, if the rural semi-peasantry wants to pop off a revolt and the urban conditions aren’t yet present, revolution fails.

    The Bolsheviks worked for decades organizing in factories, in the cities and countryside, through conditions of brutal repression, exile, and illegalism; educating and developing the workers, individually, materially and organizationally as a class. This was how they managed to build trust and deep roots in every layer of the working classes, as well as much of the peasantry, against intense slander and resistance, not to mention repression, from the crown and bourgeoisie.

    Compare this to Germany, the most industrially developed country with the most developed social democratic bourgeoisie in the world. The Spartacist faction of Luxemburg and Liebknecht did not develop a strongly disciplined, broad, and deeply connected party like the Bolsheviks. The revolutionary Marxists in Germany was not prepared in 1914 when the SPD voted to support WW1, even though Luxemburg had already written extensively about the Social Democratic elite; and they were not ready in 1917 when the communists and militants began to break away and condemn the SPD. Because they lacked deep roots and strong discipline in the working class, the German revolutionary movement was plagued by putsches and infiltrators, like the Vorwarts siege that led to the capture and murder of Rosa and Karl by fascist cops. These uncoordinated revolutionary upsurges persisted for years, and by 1924 the proletariat and the bourgeoisie had effectively defeated each other, creating another condition for the rise of fascism in Germany.

    The revolutionary conditions are always present, as the central contradiction is between the bourgeois and the working class. This means that when the bourgeoisie divides the class in some ways, it unites it in others. Capitalism is not capable of producing a stable middle class, which it needs in order to mitigate this very class antagonism. Which means the conditions of the workers, the ways we are divided and united, are dynamic and dependent on historic conditions. We use Marxism to develop the existing revolutionary potential of the workers over capitalism, not to apply old models of history to our current conditions. What we need is the party capable of building deep roots, communicating effectively across various strata correct information about real conditions affecting peoples lives, empowering people to see our power and seize it for not just our class benefit, but for the liberation of humanity.

    In terms of what to organize? For now, the answer is yourself. From there, the answer will be different for everyone. But on a larger scale we need the party. For now you are at the very beginning of a journey, and our task is to take it as revolutionaries and scientists. Be very careful with abstraction itself, like “what routes can be taken to revolution outside of the fundamental contradiction of capitalism” might be a moot point, because for us, nothing but the total domination of capital exists.

    Your example about racism as a revolutionary impetus is a good question which needs much discussion. Class antagonisms are experienced along lines of race, as well as gender, ethnicity, etc., but are not the central contradiction itself. Racism is a condition in which we organize but is not the fundamental contradiction. Where that leaves us is understanding and educating, as a basis for campaigning and fighting for change, and the best mechanism to accomplish this is still the revolutionary worker party.

    Our challenges and conditions are different than Lenin’s in many ways, but not all. The tasks are largely the same, but the conditions are of a much different character, not just from time to time but from place to place as well. So it can be very confusing comparing different times and conditions for similarities. In order to understand concrete similarity we need to also understand concrete difference. Not just what is the same but also what is different. You will likely read State and Rev again and again, you will take and teach classes about it, you will quote it in your political statements. Each time you do, you will be changed, a little further along on your journey and yet somehow back where you started. As you change, you will continually create change in your environment until you can no longer return to that place at the start, one way or the other. This is true for the individual and for the class.

    The only thing capable of administering this individual and class development is a mass revolutionary party made up of individuals of all working classes, which make up the international revolutionary working class, fighting for the interests of the whole class on the basis of a revolutionary shift away from capitalism towards socialism. We are in a phase of sectarianism where this may not be immediately obvious, but diversions from any part of this formula this are bound to be ultraleft, opportunist, reformist, or worse. It becomes more clear the more you understand the structures that actually create these conditions we struggle with.

    • dil [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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      23 days ago

      Awesome response, thank you. I really appreciate the historical context for S&R - totally makes sense now that it can’t just be blindly applied to current conditions.

      Be very careful with abstraction itself, like “what routes can be taken to revolution outside of the fundamental contradiction of capitalism” might be a moot point, because for us, nothing but the total domination of capital exists.

      Great point.

      on the basis of a revolutionary shift away from capitalism towards socialism

      I think this is where I start to think about “routes to get there”, since the working class seems so far away from wielding its power to bring about socialism. Even though the final goal is socialism, there will be fights along the way as we organize power. Immediate actions, as you said in another comment, are based on local conditions - I’m curious about the larger-scale conditions and the strategic fights that we’ll need to win along the way.

      I assume the precise answer is “the party will decide based on its analysis”, and I get it… but it’s helpful for me to have a more concrete high-level outline, even if it don’t affect my day-to-day organizing and needs to change in the future. Is there something like a 5 year plan for socialism in the US?

      • Juice@midwest.social
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        22 days ago

        The strategy is build the party. You mentioned Marxism-Leninism, so that is your big picture strategy. We can’t assess or influence conditions without a worker’s party, that is, organized expressions of working class power. If you arent convinced of the partyist line, then it is “build the mass movement.” Those are the two coherent trends in USAmerican socialism.

        I’m not saying that you can’t know next steps, I’m saying you can’t learn them from me. If you can’t connect your local work with a national movement then what is the point of either? You can’t learn this from YouTube, or even from a book. you have to join in somewhere and do work. That is the actual point of Marx and Lenin.

        Big picture options to get started.

        1. salt a union if you aren’t in one already. Will need support from local orgs/party

        2. Join DSA and get involved in a campaign. Don’t believe DSA haters, the org is what we make of it. Great if you want to engage in electoral strategies, education, and politics.

        3. PSL is another national org, smaller and expressly and ideologically ML, but very practical and organized. Mobilizes good presences at public protests nationwide, and runs some compelling larger national propaganda campaigns. PSL can be very inside baseball so as I’m not a member I never really know what is up with them, but ive had mostly good interactions.

        4. Communist Party USA - CPUSA is not bad. Lots of educational resources that go back for a long history, good people.

        5. Local campaigns and movements - some of the smartest most radical people you will meet are like running some local campaign in your city, they know everybody and they need help, just go help them, you’ll learn a ton.

        6. Another major trend in organizing labor is the Jane McKelvey-ist strategy, outlined in “No Shortcuts”, and sometimes referred to as “deep organizing”.

        7. UAW reformer president Shawn Fain is encouraging unions to negotiate their contracts to expire on May 1, 2028. Since a general strike would be technically illegal, this allows large labor organizing efforts in the open capable of shutting down huge sectors of the economy, the anti war movement will only radicalize labor further.

        You might want to research the national strike wave of the early 1930s. 1934 is the closest the USA has ever come to socialism, and in 1935 organized labor was made legal and the white working class got a new deal.