this started as a comment that got way to long

At present it is often difficult for the British Communists even to approach the masses, even to make themselves heard. But if I address the masses as a Communist, and invite them to vote for Henderson against Lloyd George, I most certainly will be listened to. And, being listened to, I shall be able to popularize the idea, not only that Soviets are better than Parliaments, and that the dictatorship of the proletariat is better than the dictatorship of Churchill (disguised under the name of bourgeois “democracy”), but also that I am prepared to support Henderson by my vote in just the same way as a rope supports the man who has hanged himself. ​And, as the Hendersons draw nearer to the formation of their own government, it will be proved that I am right, it will draw the masses to my side and will facilitate the political death of the Hendersons and Snowdens, as happened in the case of their co-thinkers in Russia and in Germany.

The thing I want to point out about this quote, and why I like it so much, is that Lenin is talking to other communists here. He’s explicitly saying that, as an out and about communist, he could go to England and support Arthur Henderson, who was at the time a leader of the British Labour Party. He was telling communists in England that they should support Labour candidates so that their inevitable failure to deliver real change would expose the party’s true nature.

That is what a working class party does, and what it is capable of because it lives outside what is possible within liberal parties. This is, I think, the missing piece that Hasan seems to gloss over in his application of Lenin’s ideas to the American context. I think in order to make my point, though, I need to quote the man himself, because it’s not enough to say what I believe he thinks; we have to actually look at what he says.

So, what is Hasan’s actual position? In an AP interview, he is quoted as saying, “There is definitely, I think, a battle right now for who gets to be more representative of the national Democratic Party.” He continues, “The super wealthy are picking apart the scraps of the American carcass like a bunch of vultures, and some of the Democrats are talking about their affiliations with a Twitch streamer. I think Americans understand that this is totally ridiculous.” He describes himself as a “megaphone” for an angry electorate. He also believes that he is the sacrificial effigy for a more progressive, young wing of the Democratic Party: “I think they find me to be a more appropriate target than to just actively disparage the voters.”

He is a self-admitted reformist. I don’t think this is news to anyone here, and it shouldn’t be. It’s also clear that he is aware that his level of influence has manifested in Democratic entryism.

From Slate:

“Do I think that there are people that have basically grown up watching me and then got into politics and started getting lower-level campaign positions? Absolutely. Will they be chewed up and spit out by the machine or become the same feckless institutionalists later down the line when they actually do get some semblance of power? Possibly. That’s the reason I want to grow my community, so we can force the Democrats to do the right thing.”

Here is basically a full admission that what he is doing has nothing to do with the words of Lenin. At no point is Lenin telling British communists that they need to force Labour to do the right thing. Lenin is explicitly saying you should support Labour (the analogue of the Democrats), so that you can point to their governance failures as evidence that your position as a communist is correct.

In this Slate piece, he has lots to say about the Democratic Party and his relationship with them.

“I’m not changing. That’s the thing. I’m not above admitting when politicians do good things, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be a Democratic Party operative. That’s just not how I operate. Some people play catch-up with the Democratic Party and defend everything the Democrats do on principle, because they see that as a way to improve their social status. They’re just careerists. But I have a real political opinion, a real way I see the world. And I genuinely believe that it improves the living standards of everyday Americans. I think that’s not only good policy but also good politics.”

I think this is a true statement, and not just a line he’s feeding. Except, the problem is that once you are inside the Democratic Party, there is a whole new line and it doesn’t matter what your line was. You enter into a system built to maintain a party line (and the Democrats and Republicans all have a party line, make no mistake), and then you’ll be “chewed up and spit out by the machine or become the same feckless institutionalists later down the line when they actually do get some semblance of power.”

But again, he is a reformist: “If a day comes where I’m side by side with the Democratic Party, that means the Democratic Party has changed its ways.”

Maybe he doesn’t believe he is a reformist, but all I can do is read his words. The thing that I think is interesting, though, is that he’s not a reformist in words. It’s his actions that signal his reformist tendencies. I think this might be an extension of the same misinterpretation of Lenin. Hasan believes that because there is no “workers party” in America, “meeting people where they are” means Democratic Party infiltration. We like to talk about him reading Lenin, and I wanted to quote him again so we can see his words directly:

“In the absence of an established viable working-class alternative third party, you have to work within the confines. You have to work within the existing platform that is afforded to you. And it’s very obvious that in this moment of weakness within the Democratic party, which is a bourgeois party, it is a center-right party that is a liberal party. Clearly, there is an opportunity there, an opportunity to seize…”

When Lenin is talking about the Duma, and using that as the example for what the British Communists should do, he is not saying “You British Communists do not have a workers party, so you have to hitch your wagon to Labour.” He is not saying that at all. What he is saying is that you should support the progressive wings of the electoral system available to you, so that you can then use their failures to advance your party’s position. The thing about the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks is that they were, from the start, a Marxist party. Their eventual participation in the Duma was not born from repression; it was a response to new political openings won by the 1905 revolution. The Tsar, under pressure, was forced to grant limited liberties and a legislative assembly. The Bolsheviks initially boycotted the First Duma, seeing it as a rigged concession. They reversed course only when the political situation made it tactically advantageous to use the Duma as a tribune for agitation. But in every case, they entered that arena as an already existing party, not as a loose network of activists hoping to pull the institution left. In Russia at the time, they did not have political freedoms in the same way the British communists did when he wrote Left-Wing Communism, just as we in America do today.

This is explicitly counter to the conditions here in the states. We have a “free press” in the sense that anyone, any group of people, is free to develop a collective output of work critical of the state. There are limits to this critique, no doubt, and historically, the level of critique has had dire consequences. In Tsarist Russia, your publication had to be approved by the state, and everything you published had to pass through direct Tsarist censors. We joke that Lenin today would be a poster, but the contrast is actually much more profound. In Tsarist Russia, the absence of political freedom meant he could not hold a public meeting, form a legal union, run a candidate for office, or publish a newspaper without police infiltration. Every basic function of building a mass party was criminalized. Today, a communist in America can do all of these things openly. The conditions are not just different from Tsarist Russia; they are its mirror opposite. Today, it’s more of a socialized enforcement of censorship, and frankly, I think that is only really true online.

Hasan seems to be aware of this when talking about Left-Wing Communism:

“I’m not running around being like Lenin would want you to vote for the Democratic party. I’m not saying that at all. That is a bastardization of my fucking approach. I’m saying that if you want to unlock class consciousness amongst the American working class, okay? You have to at least put socialism on the fucking board.”

I find this to be interesting, because, even in Lenin’s time, to be a “Social Democrat” in Tsarist Russia meant, by definition, to be a criminal. It was a state where there was no right of assembly, press, or association. Any worker circle, any party meeting, any leaflet was a criminal offense. The Okhrana (secret police) and gendarmes were omnipresent. This was not a neutral enforcement of law but a state apparatus actively designed to crush, not regulate, socialist activity. The very existence of the “underground” and its culture of konspiratsiia (the fine art of not getting arrested) was a response to a state that had already pre-labeled all party members as dangerous subversives. Socialism was never on the board in Tsarist Russia either. Hasan’s ideas seem to stem more from what has taken shape in the Republican Party than from that of Lenin, in my opinion:

“What Trump has done in the fascist direction for the Republican party must be done in the socialist direction within the Democratic party. It’s a lot harder of a bargain, but we’re not even moving in that direction at all.”

This, I think, exposes something within Hasan’s understanding of the political landscape. It imagines that there was a time when there were “respectable” Republicans, that somehow they’ve become more unhinged than they used to be, and that this was a result of internal transformation of the party. Except, we know that this isn’t true; this is just the falling of the mask of humanity and the revealing of capital’s true face. These currents have been inside the Republican party for a very long time, and there hasn’t been a moment in its history where it wasn’t a racist, genocidal, killing machine. We know that the Democrats are the carrot to the Republican’s stick, and that they are tied at the waist: where one moves to the right, so does the other.

Why should we infiltrate a party that has such a long history of bloodthirst, when you can instead exist outside of it and not need to expose yourself to their influence? Again, I think there is a clear misunderstanding of the lessons of Lenin, but also of the conditions under which he struggled. What Hasan believes is that the social consciousness of the masses of Americans is not capable of hearing from a communist about what is possible.

“Yes, because we don’t have a parliamentary structure. We don’t have a viable working third party. So, I’m using the tools that are readily available. That’s why I stress the importance of analyzing the existing material conditions as opposed to fantasizing about an alternative one.”

Because of this, he believes that not just electoralism, but actually the Democratic Party, is the gateway to their minds.

So when it comes to electoralism, we have to remember that Lenin’s support for it comes off the back of the 1905 revolution. Under pressure from that action, however, the Tsar allowed for the Duma, bringing new political freedoms to Russia that didn’t exist before then. Even at the time, internally, there was lots of debate about participating. Lenin’s support for engagement with electoralism came after the first Duma was dissolved; initially he supported a boycott. The Duma brought new conditions to the fold, ones that allowed the party more direct contact with workers, so they could agitate openly for an end to the war, land to the peasants, and bread for the starving cities, something they were not able to do as effectively under the boycott.

In America, we already have a robust electoral system; the conditions are practically the opposite of those faced by Lenin. This is why his advice in Left-Wing Communism is what it is. He is working from a framework where the conditions are flipped. By 1920, when Lenin was writing, the British Communists were operating in an environment that was everything Tsarist Russia was not. They had full political freedom: a free press, the right to assemble, the right to form trade unions, and, crucially, a genuine parliamentary system where a mass workers’ party, the Labour Party, already contested elections and could form a government.

In this new context, the task was no longer to win the basic liberties to build a party, as it had been in Russia. The task was to use those existing liberties to tear the mass of workers away from reformist leaders and win them to the Communist pole. Hasan is right, however, in the sense that there isn’t a current socialist or communist pole in America, but that is also exactly where his strategy and his misunderstanding of Lenin shines in the light of day.

Because when Lenin was advocating for participation in the Duma, he was a member and leader of a Marxist revolutionary political party and movement that nearly succeeded in its goals. It needed to maintain its momentum and build mass support through the Duma and its failures, the same kind of tactical engagement with a bourgeois institution that Lenin would later recommend to the British Communists. When the February 1917 revolution overthrew the Tsar and created the Provisional Government, the Bolsheviks were an independent pole with a program. ‘Peace, Land, and Bread’ was the cry that the masses could rally around. The October Revolution was carried out by the organized power of the Soviets, with the Bolshevik majority acting on a revolutionary mandate that had been built over years through every available platform, including the Duma.

And when Lenin was advocating for the Communist Party of Great Britain to utilize the Labour ballot, he was doing so because Communists had ready access to political freedoms that put them in front of the masses. This is, I think, where Hasan gets his idea from specifically. Because it is true, from what I can understand, that Lenin was advocating for supporting Labour candidates while denouncing their leaders as traitors. It gave you an audience with workers who still trusted those leaders.

The difference, however, is that the goal isn’t to build the Labour Party, but to peel off workers into the CPGB by allowing the workers to “be able to convince themselves on the basis of their own experience of the correctness of the communist views.” When Henderson, in Lenin’s view, inevitably fails the workers, when his government defends capitalism, attacks strikes, and remains loyal to the British Empire, then it leaves the Communists having not compromised themselves. They have been there, in the fight, pointing out the betrayal in real time. The Labour Party then becomes the architect of its own political death.

When I hear of Marxist-Leninists working on campaigns for people like Mamdani, I see the core problem: there is no unified Communist pole to act as a lightning rod. Right now, the progressive wing of the Democratic Party positions itself as that rod, but its function is to draw the energy of working-class anger and safely channel it into the earth, dissipating it before it can strike anything. A genuine Communist pole would be a lightning rod built to direct that same energy toward a target: the overthrow of the system itself.

If we want to stop that from happening, it’s not enough to build up the “left flank” of the Democratic Party. We need to be building a true workers party, one that, at first, might not win elections but can use the electoral process as a vehicle for bringing their message to the masses. We do not even have that yet, which puts me into agreement with Hasan on what the conditions are. The reality, however, is that a workers party must exist prior to this kind of engagement in electoralism. The PSL currently is the only party I can see that has the potential to be that vehicle, one that can be the “rope” that ultimately supports the “hanged man” that is capitalism.

  • spectre [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    Excellent post that has generated some excellent follow up discussion! Hope to see more threads like this in the future (maybe a liiiitle less effort cause I can’t bang out more than like 4 short paragraphs before losing motivation haha

  • deforestgump [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    If the left wants to take seriously building a party to win, it must learn message discipline. Not a Joe Rogan but an organization with the power of a Roger Ailes. Every leftist streamer and content creator needs to be blasting out the same shit strategically placed media. Not some dude at the top deciding the narrative for the whole ecosystem.

    • sodium_nitride [she/her, any]@hexbear.net
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      it must learn message discipline

      This is the uphill battle in a country’s left wing where the idea of message discipline itself is demonized by a huge subsection as “authoritarian”, but the effectiveness of message discipline can be seen clearly in how the bourgeois media is able to firmly maintain its propaganda line in the face of crisis after crisis.

  • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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    but also that I am prepared to support Henderson by my vote in just the same way as a rope supports the man who has hanged himself. ​And, as the Hendersons draw nearer to the formation of their own government, it will be proved that I am right, it will draw the masses to my side and will facilitate the political death of the Hendersons and Snowdens, as happened in the case of their co-thinkers in Russia and in Germany.

    You enter into a system built to maintain a party line (and the Democrats and Republicans all have a party line, make no mistake), and then you’ll be "chewed up and spit out by the machine or become the same feckless institutionalists later down the line when they actually do get some semblance of power."

    How can you not detect the direct parallel between Lenin’s prediction above and the realistic result of attempting to hijack the modern Democratic Party in the second comment?

    The point is the internal struggle within the party; whether people like Hasan actually believe reformism is possible is utterly irrelevant; they have no control or power over the neoliberals of the DNC, all that matters is that the more the entryists push and more the neoliberals push back, creating dualing narratives that help distinguish us from the liberals in the eyes of the blinkered American populace

    It’s that dynamic that generates the radicalizing momentum that can transform mere reformism into actual working class organization; just the shallowest introduction of a reactionary socdem into the party mainstream generated the political consciousness of most of the people in this thread…even tho many of you would like to forget that embarrassing reality

    It’s a fact third-party communist attempts have been an abject failure for over 70 years

    It’s a fact the two-party system is a robust fixture of American political economy and even cultural identification

    It’s a fact the massive American military and its 18 intelligence agency overseers force socialists in the United States into a hard legalist position by default

    It’s a fact this is a settler-colonialist country where a substantial portion of the population holds to notions of significant material buy-in regarding defense of the system, there are no disaffected Russian peasants here, there are a million Tsars in a million McMansions

    If we accept this is the reality concerning the material conditions of this hegemonic empire, then a sober strategy would look something like (details varied) an attempt to run a “third party” within the two-party system and trigger an overreaction by the American Tsars that radicalizes the millions of Americans who don’t own McMansions yet still vote Democrat or don’t vote at all

    Now if there are reformists who believe that simply attempting this strategy will lead to a successful capture of the two-party system and bring about a socdem utopia, then they’re welcome to their delusions; the viability of the strategy doesn’t change a wit

    As you already agreed, Hasan isn’t Lenin and he never will be, but he could (inadvertently or not) help blow up the Democratic Party, which serves our purposes regardless

    • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      How can you not detect the direct parallel between Lenin’s prediction above and the realistic result of attempting to hijack the modern Democratic Party in the second comment?

      Having an independent working class political party is very different from being kicked out of a bourgeois party. After you’re kicked out, where are you going to go?

      • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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        Getting kicked out IS the catalyst that creates the independent working class party; the overreaction by the state and its neoliberal sponsors creates the legitimizing foundation which your party needs to attract the attention of the American populace in the first place

        And when you’re kicked out, you’re not kicked out alone; you bring with you voters, political infrastructure, organizers, the entire social media space, and the spies and infiltrators stay with the DNC celebrating their victory, giving the movement a crucial period of wrecker-free space that acts as an accelerator for radical transformation

        Lines are drawn, people are forced to pick sides, the perceptual and real differences between liberals and leftists are solidified in the minds of average people

        The enemy hands you a powerful grievance narrative that resonates with the majority of Americans; all the old electoral arguments are exploded and the new party acquires the moral, political, numerical, and social right to absorb all orgs that maintain any relationship to the socialist tradition

        You proved to the whole country you were a real threat to the status quo; you have a casus belli

        • RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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          You’re making a more interesting argument than standard reformism, so I want to take it seriously. The claim, as I understand it, is this: entryists push from within the Democratic Party until the neoliberal machine overreacts and purges them. That purge creates a public spectacle that clarifies the line between liberals and leftists. The expelled faction then becomes the nucleus of a genuine workers’ party, carrying with it voters, infrastructure, organizers, and a built-in grievance narrative that resonates with millions of Americans. In this telling, it doesn’t matter whether Hasan believes he’s a reformist. What matters is that his strategy, intentionally or not, sets the stage for the Democratic Party to blow itself up.

          I understand why this seems plausible. The problem is that the historical parallels you’re reaching for don’t work the way you need them to, and the structural facts about how American political organizations actually function make this scenario a fantasy.

          Let’s start with structure. If your strategy depends on a “purge” creating a catalyzing split, you need to explain who is doing the purging and who is being purged. Neither question has a clear answer, because the Democratic Party is not a membership organization.

          There is no formal process for joining the Democratic Party. You can register as a Democrat to vote in primaries, but that registration confers no rights within the party itself. The party has no membership cards, no dues, no internal congresses where policy is debated and voted on, and no mechanism for members to discipline or recall leaders. Political scientists classify the Democrats and Republicans as “cadre parties,” a category that is the structural opposite of the mass parties that emerged from the European socialist tradition. In cadre parties, organization is dominated by professional political operatives, donors, and officeholders. The “party” is fundamentally a legal brand and a fundraising apparatus, not a participatory body.

          The DNC, which is the closest thing to a governing body the party has, is best understood as a service provider for candidates, not a command center. It coordinates presidential campaigns, organizes the national convention, helps devise the platform, and supports candidates at various levels. But it holds no legal authority over state party organizations, and scholars have long observed that neither the DNC nor the RNC exercises dictatorial power over the state parties that actually run elections.

          This is not a structure with a membership list to purge people from. It is not a structure with formal ideological factions that can be expelled in a way that creates a public spectacle. When the party establishment turns against someone, it does so through donor money being redirected, primary challengers being recruited, committee assignments being denied, and media access drying up. This is not a dramatic public trial that radicalizes the masses. It is a quiet bureaucratic process that the vast majority of voters never notice.

          When Lenin talks about the “political death of the Hendersons and Snowdens, as happened in the case of their co-thinkers in Russia and in Germany,” he is not describing a scenario where communists got expelled from a bourgeois party and then formed their own.

          In Russia, the “co-thinkers” he’s referring to were the Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries. They were not expelled from a bourgeois party. They were Marxist factions that split from the RSDWP or existed as independent parties, then joined the Provisional Government as socialists, then were politically destroyed by the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks did not need to get expelled from the Kadets or any liberal party to build their organization. They had their own party, their own program, and their own base before they ever entered the Duma. The split they engineered was between themselves and the reformists within their own movement, not between themselves and a liberal donor network.

          In Germany, the reference is to the Independents and the Spartacists who broke from the SPD. Here, at least, the structural analogy is closer, because the SPD was a mass membership workers’ party with formal congresses, ideological factions, and mechanisms for expulsion. But the causal sequence still doesn’t work for your argument. When the war split the party, the anti-war faction already had an independent political line, an organizational network, and a base among radicalized workers. They didn’t discover their politics by being expelled. Their politics caused the split. The USPD and later the KPD were not the product of an expulsion. They were the product of years of organized opposition within a mass party that had real ideological life.

          In both cases, the independent communist pole existed prior to the split. The split clarified lines that were already drawn. It did not create them out of nothing.

          The closest thing America has to the kind of mass membership organization where your scenario could theoretically play out is not the Democratic Party. It’s the Democratic Socialists of America.

          DSA is a membership organization with dues, a constitution, internal caucuses, and formally democratic procedures for selecting leadership. It has the structural features your theory requires. And within DSA, the very debate we’re having right now is alive and institutionally organized. There are organized caucuses representing the reformist, Democratic-entryist wing. There are organized caucuses representing the left, independent-party wing. Both have existed inside the same organization for years. They have fought at conventions, run competing slates for leadership, and articulated fundamentally incompatible strategies for achieving socialism in the United States.

          And what has not happened is exactly the thing your theory predicts. There has been no purge. The reformist wing has not expelled the left wing. The left wing has not expelled the reformist wing. Neither faction has broken away to form a new party. The organization has simply continued, managing its contradictions through internal democratic processes, without producing the kind of catalytic split that is supposed to radicalize millions of Americans. If your mechanism can’t even produce a split inside the one organization that has the structural features it requires, why would it produce one inside a party that lacks those features entirely?

          Meanwhile, an actual independent communist pole already exists in the United States. The Party for Socialism and Liberation is a Marxist-Leninist party with a Central Committee, a formal constitution, national conventions, branches in major cities, and its own newspaper. It runs its own candidates rather than seeking the Democratic ballot line. It is small, it is not currently capable of winning national elections, but it exists on its own terms with its own program and its own organizational sovereignty.

          And here is the important point for your argument: the PSL was not born from a Democratic Party purge. It was created when revolutionaries split from another explicitly socialist organization, the Workers World Party, because they believed its leadership was no longer capable of fulfilling its mission. That split occurred within the Marxist left, not within a bourgeois party. The conditions for its formation were not a public grievance narrative against the DNC. They were a cadre organization with a clear program and a willingness to build.

          If an independent working-class party can be founded without first spending a generation inside the Democratic Party hoping to get expelled, then we don’t need to wait for the expulsion that your theory requires but that no structural mechanism can actually deliver.

          The Bolsheviks did not get expelled from the Menshevik faction and then build their party. They had already built it. The split was the result of having an independent political line, an independent organizational structure, and a base among the most advanced workers. The split was the consequence of those conditions, not the cause of them.

          If you want to replicate that process, you need to start by building those conditions. The Democratic Party cannot expel you because there is nothing to expel you from. There is no membership roll. There is no formal mechanism of expulsion that creates a public spectacle. There is only the quiet operation of power, which has successfully absorbed and neutralized every progressive insurgency for the past fifty years without once producing the kind of catalytic rupture your theory depends on.

          In Lenin’s cases, the communists had a pole to stand on. They were not hoping a bourgeois party would overreact and do their organizing for them. They had already organized. If we want to follow that example, the work is not to wait for the machine to chew people up and spit them out. It is to build something outside the machine. Something the PSL is already doing. Something that does not require a spectacular expulsion to justify its existence. Something that is simply there, independent, with a program and a line, waiting for the rest of the class to find it.

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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            Let’s start with structure. If your strategy depends on a “purge” creating a catalyzing split, you need to explain who is doing the purging and who is being purged. Neither question has a clear answer, because the Democratic Party is not a membership organization.

            I’ll treat this as the crux of your questions; the purgers are the DNC, the donors, the media, the Zionists, Obama, Clinton, the same cavalcade of neoliberals who gave all of you a bad case of doomerism in 2020. And all the ink spilled outlining the structure of “cadre parties” is rendered moot the minute the phone calls are made and the money starts to move. What it’s likely to look like is a suped up version of what Perez pulled in 2017 but the next time the neolibs will have an actual left movement to purge and not some hanger-ons to Sanders and they’ll invent as many procedures and processes as necessary to make it clear to their donors and the rest of the country that the left IS PURGED, no waffling about it, I leave it to the neoliberals to find new inventive ways to purge people from a party that has no membership cards

            The purged will be those who follow the Mamdani template with DSA/PSL/Hasan Piker/etc. links, along with the Trump 1 progressives who survive (though they’re likely to be irrelevant by that late date) and what I mean by the Mamdani template is dozens of new Mamdani-like figures, mayors, senators, and representatives; that is the critical mass that has to be reached for the strategy to be viable. A mass necessary to scare the neoliberals into pressing the big red button and here we are in year one with billionaires and neoliberal media throwing psychotic fits on camera about one measly socdem mayor

            This is obviously going to be a decade long process and this is literally year one where many fail-states could still emerge and fizzle it all out. But that is the first step to constructing the foundation for the fully realized and viable socialist party you’re looking for

            When Lenin talks about the “political death of the Hendersons and Snowdens, as happened in the case of their co-thinkers in Russia and in Germany,” he is not describing a scenario where communists got expelled from a bourgeois party and then formed their own.

            I know, and he also wasn’t talking about the United States in the year 2026, I am, and I’m adapting his strategy with the extant material conditions of the US in mind, I’m not making a historical parallel; I’m making a political and theoretical parallel

            There is no one-to-one with Tsarist Russia and the United States of 2026, theory has to be an analytical tool, not an IKEA instruction manual for revolution. Like Marx said, the “superhistorical universal passport doesn’t exist”

            And what has not happened is exactly the thing your theory predicts. There has been no purge. The reformist wing has not expelled the left wing. The left wing has not expelled the reformist wing. Neither faction has broken away to form a new party

            Because none of them hold actual power, only the neoliberals do, they are only ones who can organize a purge

            Something that is simply there, independent, with a program and a line, waiting for the rest of the class to find it.

            And there is the crux of the problem: how many more decades are we gonna wait for an unconscious class to find the golden ticket?

        • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          And when you’re kicked out, you’re not kicked out alone; you bring with you voters, political infrastructure, organizers, the entire social media space, and the spies and infiltrators stay with the DNC celebrating their victory, giving the movement a crucial period of wrecker-free space that acts as an accelerator for radical transformation

          i feel like you have a very romantic view of this story you tell yourself. building a party is a multidecade struggle. it doesnt just magically appear.

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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            I’m laying out some pretty basic-ass predictions about a hypothetical rupture within the Democratic Party that relies on neoliberals acting as neoliberals; if you want to call that “romantic” then all that tells me is you don’t have a competing analysis of the situation

            Show your work. Where is this multidecade struggle party of yours that isn’t magical?

            • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              2 days ago

              I’m laying out some pretty basic-ass predictions about a hypothetical rupture within the Democratic Party that relies on neoliberals acting as neoliberals; if you want to call that “romantic” then all that tells me is you don’t have a competing analysis of the situation

              have you seen what happened to labour in the UK? when a party ruptures, a new one doesnt just appear. its chaos. only an established party can pick up the pieces, which is what the greens are doing rn

              Show your work. Where is this multidecade struggle party of yours that isn’t magical?

              i have mentioned psl many times before. its not some secret

              • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                2 days ago

                have you seen what happened to labour in the UK? when a party ruptures, a new one doesnt just appear. its chaos

                It’s the difference between controlled demolition and a rickety building collapsing out of neglect. I never claim the new party would just emerge out of thin air, you actually have to build the infrastructure and organization BEFORE the rupture, otherwise you end up like Bernie and Corbyn, isolated personalities with no organizational backing to leverage; it has to be a party effort, not a personality contest

                This is a volatile process, and it requires leadership that has actual spine, the crisis in the UK is born out a failure of Corbyn to build the movement that could back up his leadership; the strategy doesn’t work with weaklings at the top

                Also what’s happening in the UK is manifestly an opportunity and one the left should’ve and should still seize

                i have mentioned psl many times before. its not some secret

                Cool, but I hope you realize the chances of PSL breaching into the mainstream is orders of magnitude less likely than the strategy I outlined. It doesn’t mean both shouldn’t be attempted simultaneously; just be real about it

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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            2 days ago

            It doesn’t work if the movement is embodied in one person, particularly if that person is a pushover (Bernie) or a Care Bear (Corbyn)

            The rupture has to be diffused and wide-ranging; leadership has to have spine and more than one face, there actually has to be a movement and/or organization that can get kicked out, not simply a handful of personalities with no real political power

  • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    Correct. Completely and totally correct.

    However, I think you are missing about on why Hasan can’t see it. The reason is that it is hard. Unbelievably, tediously, wretchedly, hard. Much easier to be a ‘flank-left’ media influencer. Hasan isn’t stupid, but his reasoning will always be motivated by his material conditions, and there is nothing in his material conditions that make revolution necessary, the development and management of a real worker’s party needed.

    He will never be a leader. He will never be a Lenin. He will always be pretty fucking bad at this.

  • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    Honestly, I don’t consider entryists to be reformers at this point. If you truly believe that elections are a viable path, then form your own party and run candidates. The fact that entryists think commandeering an existing party (and a former pro-slavery party who thought Black people who hated slavery had a mental disorder at that) is the path forward is conceding the point that bourgeois elections are rigged against them, but instead of summoning the courage to do non-electoral forms of politics, they choose to “change from within,” hoping that they can “unrig” electoral politics. You do not need to read a single leftist text or be able to read period to know that individuals who join any social gathering are more likely to be molded by that social gathering than the other way around and by the time an individual climbs up the ranks to be a leader, they would have been sufficiently molded that they aren’t a whole lot different from the rank and file. That’s more or less how every social gathering reproduces itself.

    MLK was a reformer. MLK also wasn’t stupid enough to think joining the party who ceded from the US so they can continue owning his ancestors would somehow help his cause. He had a social movement behind him, which he then leveraged to force the Democrats. And this is ignoring the Black nationalists who not only didn’t join the Democrats but also viewed them with contempt. The Black nationalists exerted pressure on MLK and the reformist civil rights movement, who in turn exerted pressure on the Democrats.

    Hasan isn’t Lenin. Hasan isn’t MLK. Hasan isn’t even someone like George Carlin or Bill Burr. Hasan is more like folk era Bob Dylan or something. Hasan, like folk era Dylan, has been swept up by the movement and has been anointed as a figurehead by the movement, but he isn’t a leader of the movement. Hasan doesn’t even have an org behind him, and this isn’t me shitting on podcasters. Yugopnik has an org behind him. It’s called The Deprogram. Should anything happen to Yugopnik, whether a stroke like Matt or his neck just suddenly becoming a water fountain like Kirk, his org would do what any org does when they need new members: they start looking for new prospective members through an onboarding process. And should Yugopnik’s actions be completely out of line with what his org wants, he will be disciplined and eventually expelled just like any other org.

    I think people, both pro and con, are overstating Hasan’s influence. He has the spotlight shined upon him by MSM, but since he doesn’t have an org behind him, he can only do so much. He isn’t part of some streaming collective or group like the Deprogram. He certainly doesn’t have a real org behind like Kirk has with TPUSA. Kirk might have gotten owned, but his org is still around, and as long as his org continues to propagate reactionary bullshit in college campuses, then his death doesn’t mean much. This is what Hasan needs. He needs an org behind him, ideally one that he has founded. And no, the DSA doesn’t count because it’s too big tent with many people within that big tent thinking Hasan is some cringe lib streamer who the DSA should immediately drop.

          • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            2 days ago

            I see the biggest difference being that Greens spend their time doing electoral work, otherwise I don’t see anything here that isn’t what we’re saying.

            They are saying the same things on Gaza. They are doing worker organizing or at least rallying for workers. They push for issues outside of elections… they just are really small and have no resources so they can’t campaign much and get few votes.

            Their platform for comparison: https://www.gp.org/platform

            When it comes to the “Reform or Revolution?” question this always boils down to,

        • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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          2 days ago

          greens are fairly new and i feel like they dont put a lot of emphasis on the worker / socialist part. im not sure that they are sufficiently organising workers

          • MayoPete [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            2 days ago

            They aren’t in the US because there are not a lot of them. Just something to think about is this party exists, I can’t think of any ideological disagreements I have with the candidates they run, their platform is solid, but they cannot net more than a few votes per county.

            I’m not saying don’t start a new party, just take a long hard look at how the Greens operate and figure out what to do better…

  • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    Honestly make the post about a general phenomenon and it’s just a very good post about comparing conditions and what that means about strategy. I know nothing about Hasan so I just don’t care too much qbout those aspects.