A picture of the same place, Gaza, before and after the war.
Please, life and its hardships are very difficult. Please don’t abandon us.
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Well, that’s the thing, they are NOT a “genocided people”.
Most of the people who got “genocided” (which, never forget, were not only Jewish people) were from Eastern and Western Europe, whilst most of the people who moved to Israel by a very large margin were from Russia and the Middle East.
Further, there is no such thing as a “Jewish Hive Mind” or a pathway for pain and trauma to spread along ethnic lines: practicing the Jewish Religion does not magically make one a victim of the Holocaust unless one was actually a victim (at any level, even if just being forced to flee) or directly related to a victim.
The number of Jewish people in Israel who are actually victims or related to victims of the Holocaust is a bit over 10% of the Jewish population there.
Generalizing from individual victims to “race” is a Racist way of thinking. No, they’re not “all the same” and the life experiences and morals of an individual aren’t ditctated by the life experiences and morals of other unrelated individuals who only share an ethnicity and this applies in all ways, both for “good” things and “bad” things.
The Holocaust for the powers that rule Israel is little more than a Big Propaganda Tool because very few people in Israel were affected by it hence their own personal trauma from it is ZERO, so instead it’s used to spread “racial fear” and other such common elements of supremacist indoctrination.
So yeah, for the overwhelmingly majority of Israelis there’s really no Moral Break to stop Genociding others due to they themselves or their family having been victims of that themselves, because those Israelis were never directly or indirectly victims - they have only heard about it and when they did it was generally wrapped in “see, we have to protect our Race” kind of discourse that just deepened their own Racism and made them MORE likely to support Genocide along racial lines to “protect our race”.
What we have there is a supremacist nation where a past of extreme violence against other members of the same ethnicity was weaponized for Racist indictrination, making the people living there more extreme in their Racism and with a much stronger “we must defend our race” mindset, hence more likely to commit Genocide rather than less likely.
The Holocaust is no fable. Israelis in general being victims of the Holocaust is a total fable - some Israelis were, but most were not, neither directly nor indirectly.
do you have any source on that? I always was udner the impression that most of the people that moved to pissrael post-WW2 were from the USA. West europe before that. They certainly are the more dominant group with west asian or north african jews that moved there facing racist discrimination from their “fellow” jews.
Aliyah in Wikipedia
That impression you have is what the Zionists want you to have.
It’s all part of the Zionist Propaganda meant to make Westerners feel that “Israelis are like us” and hence side with Israel due to the inherent Racism that most people have (the more Racist the person the more a “they’re like us” perception gets Israel their support, which is the whole point of that propaganda). Same reason why Zionists talk about Israel having “Western Values”.
The reality is very different and culturally Israel isn’t actually a Western nation with Modern Western Values, which probably explains why raging murderous Racism and supremacist beliefs are extremelly common there whilst much rarer in Europe and even in the US.
Oh wow another reason to hate the fall of the ussr and subsequent capitalist shock therapy
i don’t believe that the murderous racism or supremacist belief has any root other than “western values” though. I’d certainly need quite a bit of convincing that this is a product of eastern european culture. To me it’s more likely that the settlers from eastern europe found themselves in a racist society and ten adapted.
The “moders western values” very much include racism, not towards jews anymore, but certainly muslims/asians, russians, dfricans etc.
Absolutelly.
My point (which, truthfully, is my hope mixed with my general experience of living in a couple of countries in Europe) is that the casual mass murdering of people of other ethnicities merelly because of their ethnicity is not a Modern Western Value at least amongst the masses (the elites are something else altogether, though I expect there we’re talking more about high levels of Sociopathy and Psychopathy making them uncaring about human life rather than racial hate), or at least in Europe (the US is still VERY murderous towards non-whites and it’s unclear how much that reflects the preferences of the general population).
So literally I’m saying that the “Modern” part in Modern Western Values is merelly not letting the Racism turn into casual Murder, which is a step forward from 19th century Western Values.
As with everything this is an average - I’m sure there are plenty of Europeans who are rabid supremacist racists who would kill those they see as being from lesser races if they could get away with it, they’re just very rare (the rabid level racists rather than “milder” racists) in Europe even whilst in Israel they seem to be over 80% of the population.
Edit:
Those things are simpy the product of older ways of thinking back when human life was universally seen as worth very little. They’re not specifically Western but Western culture also had them.
Things like the Universal Declaration Of Human Rights came to be because we slowly moved away from a calous view of other people. My impression is that Russia is decades behind the rest of Europe in the cultural shift where people are seen as having inherent rights, just as countries within Europe are at different points in that shift though seemingly most are not quite behind as Russia.
As for Eastern Europe specifically, from my own personal experience with friends and acquaintances from a couple of countries from EE (and the Balkans), it varies a lot from country to country and even within countries. For example, the perspective on Human Rights of an Hungarian from the countryside is very different from that of an Estonian from Tallinn.
This… isn’t really a good comparison to make here - 70% of the european jewish population had been killed in the holocaust; there weren’t very many left who could move to Israel.
And how exactly does that alter the reality that the vast majority people living in Israel are not Western Europeans or the descendants of those, hence the values of most Israelis are not those of Western Europe?
You’re just providing a reason for the present reality which is that the vast majority of Israelis do NOT have the kind of trauma from being victims of a Genocide which the previous poster expected would stop them from inflicting the same trauma on others.
Your “Israel ended up with the bad guys because all the good guys were killed” point doesn’t alter the reality that Israelis are mostly bad guys doing evil shit, and it sure as hell doesn’t excuse them for the evil shit they’re doing.
Entirelly different people getting mass murdered doesn’t excuse the actions of these people who are unrelated to them in any way form or shape except practicing the same religion.
… What? I said nothing even close to that, where on earth did that come from?
To my point that only a small fraction of the Israeli Jewish population (which overwhelmingly supports the Gaza Genocide) has Western European origins and thus were directly or indirectly victoms of the Holocaust, and hence that’s why Israel is more likely to commit Genocide than otherwise, you added that most Western European Jews were murdered by the NAZIs.
That logically adds to the same as saying that “Israel ended up with people more likely to commit Genocide because those less likely to do so were killed”.
Granted, I assumed that for you “people who commit Genocide” are “evil people” and people “who are against commiting Genocide” are “good people”, so just replaced the former with the later.
Guess I was wrong in my assumption that you see Genocide as a universal bad thing no matter who commits it. My bad.
Buddy, what in the waffle-posting goddamn are you talking about? I made a comment about demographic representation and you’ve managed to twist that into me making a moral statement about genocide. I am perplexed.
What was your objective in adding that very specific piece of VERY well known information to the comment I made?
Because adding a reminder of the victimization of some Jews at the hands of the NAZIs into a discussion about the evil actions of totally different Jews in the present day when that past event is totally irrelevant for said present day evil actions (which was EXACTLY the point I was making in the comment you replied to), is a incredibly common Hasbara technique.
To point out that your argument included a bit of a tautology, really - of course most of the people who moved to Israel were the people who weren’t killed. But looking into it, its also kinda wrong? Or at least, it’s heavily dependent on time period: only 1/2 of the jews that moved to israel from '48 thru '53 (promptly post-nakba) were from the middle east/asia, and that’s depending on how you define the Soviet Union - which is where the demographics of Israel become largely Asian-originated following the collapse of the USSR (side note: this is an aggravatingly unhelpful generalization of origin when discussing the 3rd largest empire in history. It’s like calling the population of Naī Dillī british in origin…)
The population of modern israel is very different from the demographics right after statehood yes, but to present the country as being primarily non-european jews is fairly disingenuous for all the above reasons. It was shaped by european jews, the “good ones” to borrow your phrasing, and those “good ones” similarly started the genocide that Israel has continued till today. By your own metric, 80 years later 10% of the population are either direct victims or related to direct victims of the holocaust - meaning that 1 in every 10 people you meet is going to have a direct connection to this shared trauma, and that’s using the highly restrictive definition of holocaust that excludes the impact on russian non-jewish civilians (another ~5.5 million people). That’s a really large portion of your citizens to have influencing a population, and that value has only been decreasing so it’s historical impact was already higher.
Bottom line, no it’s pretty reasonable to conclude that Israelis should fucking understand both the immediate & lasting impact a genocide has on a group of people.
side note 2
I’m setting aside the dismissal of the idea of generational/societal trauma right now because that’s a much more interesting discussion and I am a boring person. Also glossing over the implication that non-european jews are inherently more prone to genocide; I’m pretty sure that’s just poorly phrased.
According to this what you state about the origin of the Jews who moved to Israel is incorrect.
You can see that over the years only a small fraction of people who moved to Israel came from Western Europe who are the most likely to have been or having family who were victims of the Holocaust. The other group most likely to have Holocaust survivors or their descendants is people form Eastern Europe ex-Russia, which whilst a much bigger group is still only about 10-15% of immigrants to Israel.
The rest are much less likely to have been directly or indirectly victimized by the Holocaust, including Jews from America since most living there were already there before the Holocaust (to were many Jews moved long before the Holocaust because Europe in general was very anti-semitic and treated Jews as second class citizens) and thus weren’t European Jews who fled it to America and then moved to Israel.
Specifically with Russia, there was a massive influx of people from there in the period from 1990-2001. If I remember correctly this is when the growth of the more Far-Right parties in Israel started. I vaguelly remember something about Jews from Russia being mainly from the countryside and more orthodox than those living in Israel at the time, but I could be wrong on either of this since these are just old recollections.
Mind you, that as you say “10% of the population [of Israel] are either direct victims or related to direct victims of the holocaust” tracks very close with the polls showing that a little over 80% of Israelis support what was being done in Gaza.
In fact it all dovetails with the point I’m making as well as the point the poster I originally responde to was making: they expected that people who have suffered because of a Genocide would be much more against commiting a Genocide that other people and I actually agree with it, with my point being that only a small part of the people in Israel are such people, which you yourself just confirmed with you own number that only 10% of the population there “are either direct victims or related to direct victims of the Holocaust”.
Seems to me it’s all entirelly consistent.
The only weakness in my argument is the notion that to be more against commiting Genocide than the average person one needs to having suffered from one or that somebody one cares about deeply having suffered from one and told you about their feelings (so, in my expectation, family and very close friends). I’m going from the assumption that one needs to have suffered directly or empathised with the suffering of others in such a situation, to turn against inflicting such suffering on any people and that mere being told and showed that “this has happenned to people like you” isn’t enough to turn somebody against all forms on Genocide only against Genocide against “people like me”.
Coming at it from multiple sides, the “10% of the population [of Israel] are either direct victims or related to direct victims of the holocaust”, the massive preponderance of Holocaust Rememberances in Israel and last but not least Israel actually commiting their own Genocide of hundreds of thousands which is still ongoing, reinforce my theory that only the emotional trauma from Genocide (as a direct victim of via empathy with a victim) turns one against inflicting such thing on anybody (i.e. against ANY AND ALL Genocides) whilst merelly receiving knowledge about the Holocaust as information is not enough to turn people against all forms of Genocide. Granted, this just supports my theory and IMHO is not enough to prove it.