Most Christians will talk about “Gods Plan”. Which makes sense to me, the Christian God is omniscient and omnipresent so he could have a super well laid out plan for every micro second of human history.

But like, doesn’t this kind of defeat the purpose of prayer? Like if a family member gets sick, what’s the point to praying to God about it. Whatever happens is part of his “plan”, so there really isn’t any chance you’re going to change his mind on whether Grannie is going to pass.

Same with things “going against Gods Plan”. Gods plan should have every contingency accounted for, so it really shouldn’t matter what anyone does. Is there a chance that if too many people are gay that will derail Gods plan and everything will be fucked? Or did Gods Plan account for me being a big gay commie? Is the idea that you can’t fuck up Gods master plan, but if you do a bunch of weird crap God doesn’t like it will throw things off slightly and God will have to compensate which he finds really annoying?

  • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
    28·
    1 year ago

    I was raised Catholic so I’ll try my best to represent that perspective, which is not my own - sorry in advance if I say anything offensive to anyone.

    The first point to clarify is the compatibility between omniscience and free will. They may seem incompatible, but really it’s no different from looking back at history - I know that Napoleon invaded Russia, but he was still free to choose whether or not to when he made the decision, and the fact that I know which decision he made doesn’t mean I’m the one that made the decision. God exists outside of time, so it’s basically the same thing. Any questions about timey-wimey stuff may be directed towards the sign that says, “The Lord works in mysterious ways” (OOC this fucking jumble of sticks is foundational to so much theology and falls apart if you look at it from anything but that specific angle)

    Does God change his mind when we pray? I actually had to look this one up:

    God does not change his mind in response to our prayers or our actions. Though Scripture sometimes speaks as if he does, this language is figurative, not literal. If he did change his mind, that would mean that God had imperfect knowledge.

    However, the fact that God does not change his mind does not mean that we should refrain from praying. God, in his perfect wisdom, has made some things we need contingent on our praying for them. He does this so that we may turn our hearts to him, rely on him, trust in him, and grow in the virtues of faith, hope, and charity.

    So God has already planned around you praying, but if you didn’t pray it would cause something else to happen, except that he already knows that you’re going to freely choose to pray, unless you don’t in which case he already knew and planned around that. God’s plan is definite and unchanging, but we only discover what it is when we freely make the choices he knew we would make.

    How about sin? Well, first of all, everyone is a sinner because of original sin (OOC: which is another complete fucking mess developed by Augustine who cited a mistranslation as his primary biblical support for it) but also because it’s virtually impossible to avoid committing it. Nobody “earns” their way into heaven by being a good person, and hell isn’t so much a punishment God inflicts on you as it is a natural result of rejecting God, with the chief punishment of hell being eternal separation from God (wait shit I just called it a punishment oops).

    Uhh ok lemme go full youth pastor and break out a pop culture analogy. Think of it like a Stephen Universe fusion. In the show, in order for two gems to fuse, they have to be in sync with each other, so they do a little dance before to represent that and if they vibe well enough they’re able to fuse. Well, when you sin, you’re not vibing with God so you can’t fuse with him, but it’s not so much that he’s mad at you, it’s that you, uhh, look this is a bad analogy but the important thing to understand is that everything is your fault.

    But, there’s Good News! The Good News is that God put in a secret exclusive VIP route to get into heaven even though you, as a bad person (I’m in character I’m sorry also IC this is true for everyone), deserve to go to hell. And that VIP route is called Jesus grace. Basically, instead of laying out a bunch of arbitrary, strict rules you have to follow like in the old days, God sends down an offer that just says, “Look, you want in or not?” and all you have to do is say “Yes!” But you have to really mean it, sincerely. And if you really mean it, sincerely, then you will of course have no trouble abiding by a bunch of arbitrary, strict rules.

    I should add that this “secret exclusive VIP route” is technically available to everyone, but some people, like say a Chinese farmer in 300 A.D, might have a little bit of difficulty hearing about it. For a long time, unbaptised infants were believed to go straight to hell because they never heard the word of God, and some Catholics still believe this, which is why Catholics are so anti-abortion. The official catechism statement is something like, “We don’t know what happens to them, but we trust in God’s mercy and wisdom.” (OOC Augustine would probably throw a fit if he saw it, as iirc he came up with damned infants. IC, Augustine’s position is and has always been completely consistent with the Church’s teachings.)

    So to bring it all back, what does it mean when people say, “God has a plan for you?” Well, first off, most people are not theologically rigourous Catholics so you can generally ignore everything I wrote. But, in this context what it means is that God has a plan which either involves you repenting and renouncing your sinful ways and going to heaven, or he has a plan for you to not do that and go to hell, and it’s up to you to decide right now which one he already laid out in advance.

    • nabana [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      2·
      1 year ago

      Also raised a Catholic in religious group homes (essentially orphanages, group foster homes for kids who are never getting fostered) in Australia, and I agree with your entire wall of text and thank you for posting it so I didn’t have to post something similar.

      I also used to piss off several of the “staff” whose official position to “the children” was babies didn’t go to hell until insert catholic goalpost but that whole concept of purgatory as a placeholder until we accept god or whatever, which always led to me arguing that I should remain unbaptized and as ignorant of the churches teachings as possible then until I go to purgatory and don’t have to make the decision based on faith. (Not how it “works” but is an incredibly frustrating topic for any Catholics trying to keep things “kid friendly”.)

      Edit: They really REALLY didn’t like you saying that spreading the churches teachings to, for instance, pacific islands people’s etc, was (knowing they’re imperfect humans) condemning souls to hell when ignorance covered them 100%.