Authoritarianism is a meaningless term used by edgy children whose brains haven’t fully developed yet. The reality is that all governments rely on coercion to maintain their authority. The state is fundamentally an instrument that’s used by the ruling class to maintain its dominance. The whole notion that political systems can be neatly categorized into authoritarian or democratic binaries is deeply infantile.
Every government derives its authority from its monopoly on legal violence. The ability to enforce laws, suppress dissent, and maintain order is derived from control over police, military, and judicial systems. Whether a government is labelled authoritarian or democratic, the fundamental basis of its power lies here. Therefore, the only meaningful questions to ask are which class interests it represents, and to what extent can it be held accountable to them.
What ultimately matters is which class controls the institutions of state violence. In capitalist democracies, the government represent the interests of the economic elites who fund political campaigns, own media outlets, and control key industries. Western public lacks the mechanisms necessary to hold the government to account, and the ruling class is disconnected from the broader population. That’s precisely what’s driving political discontent all across western sphere today. Meanwhile, in so-called authoritarian regimes, the ruling party serves the working class as seen in countries like China, Cuba, or Vietnam. Hence why there is widespread public trust in these government and they enjoy broad support from the masses.
Authoritarianism is a meaningless term used by edgy children whose brains haven’t fully developed yet.
Authoritarian AF. lmao
The reality is that all governments rely on coercion to maintain their authority. The reality is that all governments rely on coercion to maintain their authority. The state is fundamentally an instrument that’s used by the ruling class to maintain its dominance… Every government derives its authority from its monopoly on legal violence.
This is called authoritarianism, silly.
The whole notion that political systems can be neatly categorized into authoritarian or democratic binaries is deeply infantile.
Nobody is saying this except you. Infantile strawman.
Yes, the working classes run both Cuba and China. Their economies are dominated by a working class-owned public sector, and society is oriented in a way that values the people over profit. Private enterprise exists, but only insofar as it is contributing to that overall pro-social aim, and not as a permanent fixture of society but a temporary measure.
you’re also wrong on china but i get that one at least because there’s endless anti-china slop, but with cuba you have to be watching wildly reactionary shit to believe it’s like the us
Yes, Cuba and China are very obviously serving the working class. Maybe spend a bit of time educating yourself instead of smoking whatever it is you smoke.
The reality is that all governments rely on coercion to maintain their authority.
Yeah, and isn’t that a problem? Like, why just take for granted that all governments we’ve tried so far are coercive, instead of trying to build one that isn’t?
What you might want to think real hard about is why hierarchies form in the first place, and what problem they solve. Then you might start to understand why every society converges on this model at a certain point or it dies out.
I’d genuinely like to hear your answer on this, because it’s something I think a lot about as an anarchist. Specifically, do you think the problem power hierarchies solve can only be solved by power hierarchies? Do you think that problem necessarily exists and needs solving in all contexts, perhaps because of some innate human nature? Who is it that has told you this is the case–that the fact that history is filled with hierarchies should be interpreted as “hierarchies are inevitable”–instead of, say, “power over others is an unhealthy coping mechanism humans have consistently turned to in the face of the unknown and maybe we should try to build a society that Doesn’t Do That before we give up and resign ourselves to benevolent kings again”?
This author seems to be confused about what hierarchies are. Hierarchies have nothing to do with division of labor or expertise–you can easily have/recognize both of those things in a horizontal power structure. A hierarchy is about who can coerce whom.
In the factory example the article gives, the presence of a central organizer/administrator/delegator does not necessarily mean the factory operates hierarchically. To determine if it does, you’d need to ask, “does the organizational structure allow the administrator to have their decisions enforced via actual or threatened violence against people who dissent?” In our capitalist reality, this would be things like firing the dissenter (depriving them of basic survival resources) or calling the cops. In authoritarian “communist” regimes, this might be forced labor or re-education camps.
You can organize at scale, abstract out certain parts of the organization, etc. without this coercive element. Humans are cooperative creatures; we want to build things together, and we are fully capable of respecting each other while we do so. Why limit the bounds of our liberation by assuming we need this systemic violence to do what we already want to do?
It is you who is in fact confused about what hierarchies are because they have absolutely nothing to do with coercion, and have everything to do with division of labour and abstraction. You seem to have a personal definition of what a hierarchy is. Hierarchies do not require any violence whatsoever, and it’s a concept that applies to large range of domains outside politics such as writing computer programs. Next, you’ll be telling me that class hierarchies require threat of violence.
Hierarchy is a general organizational concept. Hierarchies are how pretty much all non-trivial software is structured because you need to create layers of abstraction. And obviously the notion of violence is nonsensical in this context.
Not all vertical organization is equivalent. Participating in any worker organization can help explain the importance of administration, and this becomes more and more critical at scale. The question isn’t “top-down” or “bottom-up,” but how to make the two united.
If a pandemic happens and you have to mandate masks or would like to ask people to maintain social distancing, how would you do it? If you mandate and enforce it, you’ll form/expose the hierarchy, right?
Even if it is a majority vs minority decision, if you enforce it, it’ll show a hierarchy by means of medical expertise or ability of enforcement, right? Or is it seen as natural or justified hierarchies?
Even if you elect a rep and even if you have options for recall, for your rep to take decisions, you would be giving them power, right?
Or is it whole organisation voting on each topic?
do you think the problem power hierarchies solve can only be solved by power hierarchies?
What are the other alternatives that are used, which do not have hierarchies to better solve the problems?
resign ourselves to benevolent kings again"
Not benevolent kings but recallable representatives would be the goal, right?
In case of socialist experiments, when they are under imperialist threat and fear of sabotage, they may not be able to fully do that, but not benevolent kings.
If you mandate and enforce it, you’ll form/expose the hierarchy, right?
Well, depends on who “you” is and how you “enforce” it. Do you, the person given the systemic authority to do so, throw people in jail/gulags/whatever if they refuse to mask? Then yeah, that’s hierarchical. Do you, a community member, organize with other community members to exclude the non-masker from social events and community spaces until they decide to mask? OR do you, a doctor designated via the community as an expert and thus given narrow, organic, retractable social authority to do so, say “you need to wear a mask”? Then no.
Do you, a community member, organize with other community members to exclude the non-masker from social events and community spaces until they decide to mask?
Is that not hierarchical too?
And what do you do if they do not allow themselves to be excluded from community spaces?
Are you not bringing in hierarchy when you give yourself and your group the power to choose whether the person or group who disagrees should be excluded from community spaces?
And what do you do when they do not agree? Do you jail them? Do you harm them or threaten violence?
Are you not creating/exposing the hierarchy by choosing to exclude those parts of your community from community spaces for disagreeing with you?
a doctor designated via the community as an expert and thus given narrow, organic, retractable social authority to do so, say “you need to wear a mask”?
So, again a power hierarchy in the matter of medicine, where you a lay person has lesser power?
And the people opposing the masking, will not be agreeing with that doctor, right? So not designated by the all of the community as a expert in that specific topic then.
If the person acknowledged the expertise, then the issue would not persist, right?
Do you threaten or propagandise someone that they would not oppose that position and obey it then? Power hierarchy again, right?
So are we assuming the non-masker is trying to be somewhere they’ve been told they’re not welcome like, as a statement of rebellion? Do they not understand that they’re not welcome or what they need to change to be welcome? Are they trying to be provocative, or are they trying to gain access to the community for some specific purpose?
“Enforcing this exclusion” is really broad. It has the underlying assumption that the situation is already violent, that there is a thing to enforce against someone who is “disobeying” the thing. Which I’d argue comes from the fact that we’ve really only lived in police states in modern history. Again, humans are social creatures–we want community and we want to feel included. And we don’t consciously do things to each other for no reason. I urge you to think deeply about where the need for “enforcement” comes from, and what we mean by it.
If someone is refusing to wear a mask and you and your neighbourhood watch or vigilantes or whatever you want to call yourselves come together and decide this person is not allowed to make use of community spaces anymore but they decide not to listen (as they already are about the masking rules) what is the course of action.
“Enforcing this exclusion” is really broad. It has the underlying assumption that the situation is already violent, that there is a thing to enforce against someone who is “disobeying” the thing.
Word salad entirely dancing around the point that you brought up exclusion as a response to someone violating health recommendations like masking during a pandemic but entirely refused to engage with the fact that exclusion (especially from spaces) requires there to be action taken should the exclusion be violated.
Authoritarianism is a meaningless term used by edgy children whose brains haven’t fully developed yet
You tend to lose a bit of credibility when you start your argument with this kind of sentences. After that you would need to prove that your reasoning is at least as qualitative, as, say, Hannah Arendt’s work, and unfortunately it is far off the mark.
Her definition and study of totalitarianism are still intellectually relevant, but hey, if she had a blue car instead of a red car, then of course I see your point.
Do you all go to the same school of completely missing the point and having the most ludicrous rhetorical responses?
Okay, so it was that Hannah. Seems like you don’t see the point.
I’ve read her drivel. I just dont blindly swallow propaganda merely because I am told the person serving it is very clever. Looking at any definition or practical application of the concept of “authoritarianism” (don’t get me started on your weird sidetrack of totalitarianism) makes it clear its actual purpose is to serve as a propaganda shorthand for “badguyplace.”
Every definition is either so broad as to describe every state or so narrow as to be pointless, where you might as well just say China (or the USSR back in the day)
The ridiculous concept of looking at how a state wields power, while ignoring who is in control of the state, what support they have and to what purpose they wield said power, is asinine to say the least. Not to mention, once again, that every state wields power in an authoritarian fashion.
It was developed by Hannah Arendt so she could say “actually the Nazis and the society are totally the same and not at all like us freedom-lovers, never mind all the authority we wield to suppress our own and foreign populaces.”
The users in these parts think Hannah Arendt, along with Western Marxists like Adorno, Horkheimer, Marcuse, etc. were CIA stooges. Expect people to spam Gabriel Rockhill at you.
It was more “you lose credibility when you make a grotesque thesis statement, both in substance and on the form”.
The form is sufficiently obvious I suppose. If I call you an edgy moron even before you disagree with me, you’re not exactly looking for a nice conversation.
On the merits of the existence of authoritarianism, dismissing the work of someone like Adorno - just like that - is genuinely hilarious.
Wait, now this needs some clarification. Is it anti-communists as someone who is against communists or anti-communists as people who share a hatred of communism? Because one might be downright libelous
But thanks for your reactivity, I feel like lib is a bit lazy
You still believe in the existence of propaganda or even the concept of memory? Smh, you need to break the chains of bourgeois discourse and ascend to ad hominem attacks
Thanks for providing us with an example! I almost had forgotten what it meant, being too busy with the Reddit losing and whatnot. Sorry I have to go there is this sponsored post about investing in crypto - I could lose a massive amount of money and dignity, can’t pass the opportunity.
I was being sarcastic and poking fun at people using it. Congrats on taking the bait. What the picture says is that the US which libs championed as a ‘free and enlightened society’ in the 90s was incarcerating more people than USSR did during Stalin years. Rate of incarceration in USSR dropped significantly after that while it remains as high as ever in the US today.
Authoritarianism is a meaningless term used by edgy children whose brains haven’t fully developed yet. The reality is that all governments rely on coercion to maintain their authority. The state is fundamentally an instrument that’s used by the ruling class to maintain its dominance. The whole notion that political systems can be neatly categorized into authoritarian or democratic binaries is deeply infantile.
Every government derives its authority from its monopoly on legal violence. The ability to enforce laws, suppress dissent, and maintain order is derived from control over police, military, and judicial systems. Whether a government is labelled authoritarian or democratic, the fundamental basis of its power lies here. Therefore, the only meaningful questions to ask are which class interests it represents, and to what extent can it be held accountable to them.
What ultimately matters is which class controls the institutions of state violence. In capitalist democracies, the government represent the interests of the economic elites who fund political campaigns, own media outlets, and control key industries. Western public lacks the mechanisms necessary to hold the government to account, and the ruling class is disconnected from the broader population. That’s precisely what’s driving political discontent all across western sphere today. Meanwhile, in so-called authoritarian regimes, the ruling party serves the working class as seen in countries like China, Cuba, or Vietnam. Hence why there is widespread public trust in these government and they enjoy broad support from the masses.
Authoritarian AF. lmao
This is called authoritarianism, silly.
Nobody is saying this except you. Infantile strawman.
Wow that’s such an amazing rebuttal you’ve mustered there. It’s a real testament to your intellect.
Yep that’s what I would expect. Infantile.
Very obvious what word you just learnt
Cuba or China serving the working class?
I want a little bit of what you smoke, it’s strong.
They’re just color-changed-US. Nothing different at all.
There are no homeless in China. Cuba has the most progressive queer rights legislation.
Removed by mod
Yes, the working classes run both Cuba and China. Their economies are dominated by a working class-owned public sector, and society is oriented in a way that values the people over profit. Private enterprise exists, but only insofar as it is contributing to that overall pro-social aim, and not as a permanent fixture of society but a temporary measure.
where do you get your info on cuba lmao
you’re also wrong on china but i get that one at least because there’s endless anti-china slop, but with cuba you have to be watching wildly reactionary shit to believe it’s like the us
Cuba == usa???
Zombies would starve from just being near you.
Yes, Cuba and China are very obviously serving the working class. Maybe spend a bit of time educating yourself instead of smoking whatever it is you smoke.
It must be very interesting to know so little and just say things.
Yeah, and isn’t that a problem? Like, why just take for granted that all governments we’ve tried so far are coercive, instead of trying to build one that isn’t?
What you might want to think real hard about is why hierarchies form in the first place, and what problem they solve. Then you might start to understand why every society converges on this model at a certain point or it dies out.
I’d genuinely like to hear your answer on this, because it’s something I think a lot about as an anarchist. Specifically, do you think the problem power hierarchies solve can only be solved by power hierarchies? Do you think that problem necessarily exists and needs solving in all contexts, perhaps because of some innate human nature? Who is it that has told you this is the case–that the fact that history is filled with hierarchies should be interpreted as “hierarchies are inevitable”–instead of, say, “power over others is an unhealthy coping mechanism humans have consistently turned to in the face of the unknown and maybe we should try to build a society that Doesn’t Do That before we give up and resign ourselves to benevolent kings again”?
here is a detailed explanation for you https://dialecticaldispatches.substack.com/p/what-challenges-do-hierarchies-address
This author seems to be confused about what hierarchies are. Hierarchies have nothing to do with division of labor or expertise–you can easily have/recognize both of those things in a horizontal power structure. A hierarchy is about who can coerce whom.
In the factory example the article gives, the presence of a central organizer/administrator/delegator does not necessarily mean the factory operates hierarchically. To determine if it does, you’d need to ask, “does the organizational structure allow the administrator to have their decisions enforced via actual or threatened violence against people who dissent?” In our capitalist reality, this would be things like firing the dissenter (depriving them of basic survival resources) or calling the cops. In authoritarian “communist” regimes, this might be forced labor or re-education camps.
You can organize at scale, abstract out certain parts of the organization, etc. without this coercive element. Humans are cooperative creatures; we want to build things together, and we are fully capable of respecting each other while we do so. Why limit the bounds of our liberation by assuming we need this systemic violence to do what we already want to do?
It is you who is in fact confused about what hierarchies are because they have absolutely nothing to do with coercion, and have everything to do with division of labour and abstraction. You seem to have a personal definition of what a hierarchy is. Hierarchies do not require any violence whatsoever, and it’s a concept that applies to large range of domains outside politics such as writing computer programs. Next, you’ll be telling me that class hierarchies require threat of violence.
I’m confused by your last sentence. Can you say more?
Hierarchy is a general organizational concept. Hierarchies are how pretty much all non-trivial software is structured because you need to create layers of abstraction. And obviously the notion of violence is nonsensical in this context.
Not all vertical organization is equivalent. Participating in any worker organization can help explain the importance of administration, and this becomes more and more critical at scale. The question isn’t “top-down” or “bottom-up,” but how to make the two united.
What is meant by power hierarchy?
Anyway, asking about a scenario:
If a pandemic happens and you have to mandate masks or would like to ask people to maintain social distancing, how would you do it? If you mandate and enforce it, you’ll form/expose the hierarchy, right?
Even if it is a majority vs minority decision, if you enforce it, it’ll show a hierarchy by means of medical expertise or ability of enforcement, right? Or is it seen as natural or justified hierarchies?
Even if you elect a rep and even if you have options for recall, for your rep to take decisions, you would be giving them power, right?
Or is it whole organisation voting on each topic?
What are the other alternatives that are used, which do not have hierarchies to better solve the problems?
Not benevolent kings but recallable representatives would be the goal, right?
In case of socialist experiments, when they are under imperialist threat and fear of sabotage, they may not be able to fully do that, but not benevolent kings.
Well, depends on who “you” is and how you “enforce” it. Do you, the person given the systemic authority to do so, throw people in jail/gulags/whatever if they refuse to mask? Then yeah, that’s hierarchical. Do you, a community member, organize with other community members to exclude the non-masker from social events and community spaces until they decide to mask? OR do you, a doctor designated via the community as an expert and thus given narrow, organic, retractable social authority to do so, say “you need to wear a mask”? Then no.
Is that not hierarchical too?
And what do you do if they do not allow themselves to be excluded from community spaces?
Are you not bringing in hierarchy when you give yourself and your group the power to choose whether the person or group who disagrees should be excluded from community spaces?
And what do you do when they do not agree? Do you jail them? Do you harm them or threaten violence?
Are you not creating/exposing the hierarchy by choosing to exclude those parts of your community from community spaces for disagreeing with you?
So, again a power hierarchy in the matter of medicine, where you a lay person has lesser power?
And the people opposing the masking, will not be agreeing with that doctor, right? So not designated by the all of the community as a expert in that specific topic then.
If the person acknowledged the expertise, then the issue would not persist, right?
Do you threaten or propagandise someone that they would not oppose that position and obey it then? Power hierarchy again, right?
How do you plan to enforce this exclusion? Putting up a sign, physical removal (violence), non physical punitive measures?
So are we assuming the non-masker is trying to be somewhere they’ve been told they’re not welcome like, as a statement of rebellion? Do they not understand that they’re not welcome or what they need to change to be welcome? Are they trying to be provocative, or are they trying to gain access to the community for some specific purpose?
“Enforcing this exclusion” is really broad. It has the underlying assumption that the situation is already violent, that there is a thing to enforce against someone who is “disobeying” the thing. Which I’d argue comes from the fact that we’ve really only lived in police states in modern history. Again, humans are social creatures–we want community and we want to feel included. And we don’t consciously do things to each other for no reason. I urge you to think deeply about where the need for “enforcement” comes from, and what we mean by it.
Really not engaging with what I said at all.
If someone is refusing to wear a mask and you and your neighbourhood watch or vigilantes or whatever you want to call yourselves come together and decide this person is not allowed to make use of community spaces anymore but they decide not to listen (as they already are about the masking rules) what is the course of action.
Word salad entirely dancing around the point that you brought up exclusion as a response to someone violating health recommendations like masking during a pandemic but entirely refused to engage with the fact that exclusion (especially from spaces) requires there to be action taken should the exclusion be violated.
You tend to lose a bit of credibility when you start your argument with this kind of sentences. After that you would need to prove that your reasoning is at least as qualitative, as, say, Hannah Arendt’s work, and unfortunately it is far off the mark.
Hannah Arendt, the woman who said Jews were to blame for the holocaust because they didnt rise up?
It’s like you don’t read these things at all?
Her definition and study of totalitarianism are still intellectually relevant, but hey, if she had a blue car instead of a red car, then of course I see your point.
Do you all go to the same school of completely missing the point and having the most ludicrous rhetorical responses?
I recommend reading Towards a Critique of the Category of Totalitarianism by Domenico Losurdo.
Okay, so it was that Hannah. Seems like you don’t see the point.
I’ve read her drivel. I just dont blindly swallow propaganda merely because I am told the person serving it is very clever. Looking at any definition or practical application of the concept of “authoritarianism” (don’t get me started on your weird sidetrack of totalitarianism) makes it clear its actual purpose is to serve as a propaganda shorthand for “badguyplace.”
Every definition is either so broad as to describe every state or so narrow as to be pointless, where you might as well just say China (or the USSR back in the day)
The ridiculous concept of looking at how a state wields power, while ignoring who is in control of the state, what support they have and to what purpose they wield said power, is asinine to say the least. Not to mention, once again, that every state wields power in an authoritarian fashion.
It was developed by Hannah Arendt so she could say “actually the Nazis and the society are totally the same and not at all like us freedom-lovers, never mind all the authority we wield to suppress our own and foreign populaces.”
The users in these parts think Hannah Arendt, along with Western Marxists like Adorno, Horkheimer, Marcuse, etc. were CIA stooges. Expect people to spam Gabriel Rockhill at you.
Were they ?
Yes.
This has to be the shittiest conspiracy theory I have heard of. Amazing, thanks for bringing this to my attention.
“You lose credibility when you make a thesis statement I don’t already agree with!”
It was more “you lose credibility when you make a grotesque thesis statement, both in substance and on the form”.
The form is sufficiently obvious I suppose. If I call you an edgy moron even before you disagree with me, you’re not exactly looking for a nice conversation.
On the merits of the existence of authoritarianism, dismissing the work of someone like Adorno - just like that - is genuinely hilarious.
Aka something you disagree with.
What the fuck does that even mean? You’re just trying to sound smart now.
In that they disagree with you, yes.
So they disagree with you
Ha! They told me the odds of winning the lottery were infinitesimal and yet I have been called a lib on lemmy.ml. Nobody will believe me.
my bad, i’ll fix it
I even fixed the spelling!
Wait, now this needs some clarification. Is it anti-communists as someone who is against communists or anti-communists as people who share a hatred of communism? Because one might be downright libelous
But thanks for your reactivity, I feel like lib is a bit lazy
Just someone who is against communism. I did not intend to make it seam you hated us.
Great, because you’ve become very dear to me. xoxox
*weakest
“I, the arbiter of credibility, have decided this claim is self-evidently ridiculous for reasons I don’t need to explain”
Lol, of course
I think this comes from Giles in the novelization of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, not from Arendt. But easy to confuse when you have read neither
That’s an amazing counterpoint, thank you.
No worries. Dismissing the very concept of authoritarianism right off the bat was a nice move, too.
Libs being confronted with the fact that propaganda terms they’ve memorized are meaningless never gets old.
You still believe in the existence of propaganda or even the concept of memory? Smh, you need to break the chains of bourgeois discourse and ascend to ad hominem attacks
That’s not an ad hominem dumbass. Neither is this.
Rule 2
Mods i spill my juice
😢
I was there to make new friends but everyone is very mean.
What goes around comes around
I wish you Reddit losers would actually learn what an ad hominem is before you spew it everywhere.
Thanks for providing us with an example! I almost had forgotten what it meant, being too busy with the Reddit losing and whatnot. Sorry I have to go there is this sponsored post about investing in crypto - I could lose a massive amount of money and dignity, can’t pass the opportunity.
Go back to Reddit you insufferable fucking dork
Thank you for providing much needed levity in this thread.
Do you dismiss the very concept of Badguyism?
If you don’t like the word authoritarian why did you use it? And why did you get defensive when someone agreed with your image.
Even sarcastically I don’t see what you goal here was. To say the us and the soviet union are similarly inhumane? Or the us is slightly worse?
Ok, and?
I was being sarcastic and poking fun at people using it. Congrats on taking the bait. What the picture says is that the US which libs championed as a ‘free and enlightened society’ in the 90s was incarcerating more people than USSR did during Stalin years. Rate of incarceration in USSR dropped significantly after that while it remains as high as ever in the US today.
Removed by mod
Aww, is google banned at the troll farm?