Informed Consent
As long as three different religions all think important fiction occured in Jerusalem I don’t think there will ever be peace in Israel. Does that mean a Palestinian state should not exist? No. It absolutely should and could.
I think this is widespread myth. This has been a heavily populated region for thousands of years, and most of them haven’t looked like the last 70.
Also, I think we need to stop talking about Palestine should exist" and start working towards the one-state solution.
Tell the people building a wall to keep the other people caged off about a “one-state” solution.
You can argue “there are good/bad people on both sides” doesn’t change that one segment of the population is being treated like a caged dog…
…And then we wonder why the dog bites the hand that feeds it.
Honestly, I’m not sure what your point is, but the One State Solution is the the preferred outcome of most Palestinian youth and most antizionists. Among everyone familiar with the issue on both sides, it’s clear that the two state solution is dead, and only exists as an empty phrase to delay the only remaining option which would give Palestinians any civil rights.
https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/palestinian-youth-and-the-futility-of-the-two-state-solution/
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/middle-east/israel-palestine-one-state-solution
https://www.thecairoreview.com/essays/the-case-for-the-one-state-solution/
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Israel’s political divisions are no longer divisions over the Palestinian question. Both sides in the last election argued over which one would be tougher on Palestinians. Benny Gantz tried to claim he’d be tougher than Netanyahu because he’s killed Palestinians before. Neither wants Arab Israelis serving in the cabinet or government. The Israeli left wing has withered away over the last 20 years. Those massive street protests in Israel over Netanyahu gutting the courts was about Israelis, nobody brought up how this change would further harm Palestinians. Heck, the outrage was that Israelis would start to be treated “like Palestinians” under rightwing judges.
One state solution?
I agree, let’s abolish Israel.
I’m rewriting this for a third time to try to avoid cursing at you because I want to model the nonviolent communication I want to see more of in these discussions.
Your comment infuriates me because I’m trying to promote what I – and at this point, I think, the majority of Palestinians under 30 – see as the only future where Palestinians are able to receive their basic rights. Which is to acknowledge their land as Israeli territory and they as oppressed citizens of Israel and proceed with demands for civil rights from there. And I don’t appreciate glib statements in the midst of a tragedy.
Did the Israeli ruling government set this in motion?* Yes.* Do noncombatants on either side deserve to die because of that? No. Fucking no. I’m just not in a joking mood about this.
And to anyone upvoting this: please take that anger and sign up for the mailing list of the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights. Do something useful.
The suggestion that if Israel simply lifted the blockade and stopped all security operations in the West Ban there would be complete peace is ridiculously idealistic and naive.
You are not going to convince a nation that just saw hundreds of citizens brutally murdered and kidnapped that the only thing they have to do is fully open the borders and smile, and then the people who just murdered them will come out and be their friends.
The inverse is also true. Israel has kept these people bottled up in what amounts to open air concentration camps for the last 70 years, and constantly killing Palestinians for that entire time.
Israel has never cared about collateral damage in their war on the people who lived there before.
So imagine a people, treated like criminals for their entire lives, all because they lived on the land that Zionists wanted.
All that resentment for the unceasing oppression let the worst elements gain power.
The path to change is not to expect the oppressed to stop lashing out. Only in ending the oppression can there be change.
But the Israeli government isn’t interested in stopping the oppression. They could have done that at any time in the last 70 years. No, they seem to want a full genocide.
The reason that Israel doesn’t go full speed on genocide is the same reason why they never actually pursue peace. That is, the ruling authority there benefits from having a persistent threat. They get to maintain and build power and wealth while genociding in a slow enough fashion to not raise a critical mass of objections from their benefactors in the United States.
Not only the resentment but Israel actually helped their worst elements gain power in order to cause an inner conflict within the Palestinians. They supported Hamas’s growth to cause a fissure between them and the PLO.
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That’s not congruent with the facts. If Israel wanted only to guarantee its own security, it could have accepted the Arab Peace Initiative, but deemed withdrawing to the pre-1967 borders unacceptable. It wants to guarantee its own security, to be sure, but it also really, really wants more land.
Israel could genocide the Palestinians in a few hours, but then the international community would bomb their asses back to the stone age.
But, if they were to say, fund a religious extremist or two (which they totally did in the beginning), and then look the other way as that extremist starts up a terrorist organization or two, then the Israeli leaders can constantly be in a state of “protecting themselves” and easily maintain their own power in government.
Plus the constant low level terrorist attacks justify more oppression and theft of land, and any time there’s international pushback about the oppression or theft of land, you see a larger terrorist attack.
If I were conspiracy minded, I’d say that there are mossad plants in Hamas who gently nudge when Israeli leaders need a distraction.
Almost every statement you just made is demonstrably false.
This isn’t that profound an observation, because the same sentiment works in reverse from the point of view of Palestine. There’s no way that they can appease Israeli revanchism. That’s why the situation is so intractable.
This is a ridiculous straw man.
Palestinians are the only ones who can end this conflict. It’s been half a century, and they have never once been willing to accept a solution that didn’t include “Right of Return”… a mechanism by which they would overwhelmingly claim voting rights in Israel, and essentially vote Israel into an anti-Jewish Muslim theocracy.
Israel won’t agree to any peace deal that would see it voted out of existence.
Israel is also able to thrive even under the threat of terrorism.
They can wait forever.
The ball is in the Palestinians’s court.
This conflict will be over the day they say to themselves, "hey gang… Uh, I don’t think we’re going to get our land back. And I’m tired of living in poverty. Let’s take the shit peace deal and get some land and autonomy, and look forward instead of backward.
There’s no other way this ends. Anything else is a fantasy.
And I’ve never seen the anti-Israel crowd come up with a single coherent rebuttal to this.
The whole fact that you see the wrongdoings of only one of the sides in this conflict speaks volumes.
Sorry but you too are a product of your state media propaganda. Just from the other side of the barricade. And sorry to disappoint you but that doesn’t make you morally superior.
I see wrongs on both sides. But I also see that Israel has a history of trying to make peace, and of making piece with their other neighbors.
All I’ve ever seen from Palestinians is terrorism and rejecting peace deals.
Your view on the peace process is disturbingly simplistic and inaccurate. There were attempts on both sides and both sides failed to reach a compromise but saying that all the fault lay with one of the sides comes to prove that you fail to see the issue with all its nuances.
Oh really. Name one time in history that the Palestinians agreed to a peace deal that wouldn’t have left Israel with indefensible borders or a “right of return” which would allow Palestinians to essentially vote in overwhelming numbers to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy?
Ah yes, why shall we grant them voting rights, it is so much better to create a humanitarian crisis, endlessly increase the buffer zones and the restrictions on the Palestinians, depriving them from food, clean water, fuel, expel them from their homes, create even more illegal settlements and then act surprised when they revolt.
Why should we care for civilian lives on the other side of the fence. /s
Right?
Correct. Giving Palestinians the ability to vote Israel out of existence, and turn it into a Jew-hating Muslim theocracy is absolutely the worse option of those two.
Peace cannot begin and end with asking Jews to opt in to suicide.
You conveniently forget that your population is a lot higher than that of the Palestinians and even if all the Palestinians come to Israel it won’t happen. So your solution to the problem is to keep Palestinians still in this open air prison, oppress them economically, and with resources, severely restrict their freedom rights, expel them from their homes, etc. Here we are not talking about a small group of people, but a couple of millions.
Current events displaced already 123.000 people, same people are currently sheltering in schools, etc. Soon the whole population of Palestine won’t have access to fresh water, electricity, fuel. You cannot even comprehend the extent of this. Have you ever tried to put in the shoes of the people who are living behind that fence. No. Because you simply don’t care. Do you truly believe that all of those people are complicit and deserve this suffering. If you are subject to such oppression what would you seriously do?
So tell me now how are you any different from the people who are celebrating on the streets the civilian casualties?
And can you please remind me what exactly you have learned from history, your own history, not too long ago. Do you truly believe long term oppression is the solution and a recipe for peace?
My solution to the problem is a two-state solution where Palestinians take whatever Israel is willing to offer at this point.
Palestinians have ZERO leverage in this situation. They lost. The lost decades upon decades ago.
If they loved their children more than they hate the Jews, they would cut their losses and rebuild.
It really is exactly that simple. Because Israel will never budge, and they are getting better and better at defense themselves over time.
Economically, Israel is thriving. They can wait forever. That’s the political reality.
And if you think the answer is pulling international support from Israel, consider that China or some other world power would love to have a foothold in that region, and Israel will have have no problem finding other allies if we want to give up access to intelligence in that region.
You’re not considering the population growth rate in Gaza is considerably higher than in Israel.
The demographic shift would have a massive impact on Israeli democracy, even if a complete theocracy was not immediately on the table.
For comparison, imagine what would happen to any swing state if you introduced 20 percent of voters from deep red Alabama.
How long until books are banned?
Look up how many civilians were killed on both sides since the beginning of this clusterfuck.
You know as well as I do that if Hamas was successful every time it tried to murder an Israeli, those death tolls would be much much closer.
Are you saying that if Israel let more of its civilians die, it would be less morally culpable?
I cannot imagine success as killing someone. Also, you are speculating on what might happen with people’s lives.
IMHO civilians dying in any circumstances is dumb af. This includes them directly dying as a result of war and indirectly dying as a result of economic and political maneuvers, blocades, shitty things.
My point is that there is a difference between attacking a building that is shooting rockets at your civilians and slaughtering 200 civilians at a festival, taking 130 hostages, raping women and parading their naked bodies through the streets, and decapitating people.
Israel is not in any sense perfect, but it least attempts to minimize civilian casualties. The IDF is not roaming through the West Bank murdering every Palestinian it sees, whereas that’s exactly what Hamas was doing two days ago.
We are mostly saying the same thing. There is a reason why what happened happened and as far as I am concerned both sides are terrorists. Is raping women any worse than imposing a blocade that literally equals people fucking starving to death? Yes, it’s shocking. Genocide is genocide no mater how you slice it.
Nobody is saying that 100% of the Palestinians would then make peace by doing that. But doing so would rob Hamas of all its popularity. Palestinians turned to it because they had no other choice; Abbas was doing nothing to stop the slaughter of Palestinians and asking the world for help got nowhere. Conversely, if all attacks by Palestinians stopped for good then most of the Israeli rightwing would be abandoned by the Israeli public. These two groups are not as different as you think.
The two state solution isn’t workable, because Israel will never allow a viable Palestinian state. The only three options are
- genocide
- a permanent state of apartheid
- giving the Palestinians the vote and letting the political chips fall however they may
All three options have downsides, but in my view the third choice is the only one that’s sustainable in the long run and not morally monstrous. But I have no confidence at all that that’s the pathway that will be chosen.
What, pray you, is the nuanced downside to genocide?
Edit: lol I forgot the /s didn’t think it was necessary. Your wording was funny to say there’s a downside to all 3 like genocide is even an option
Nobody left to feed the cats
Bad press. Gotta worry about stray kids getting all angry and coming at you years later. It’s a lot of work. But, they learned from ze Germans
Guaranteed the Israeli govt talks about it as a viable option, the blasé attitude of their soldiers when it comes to shooting children or anyone not Israeli is an example. They’re just as bad as the saudis, our money lets them have carte blanche for whatever the fuck they want to do
No more Palestinian food. /s
I’m not promoting genocide. That’s definitely a downside lol
People die.
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This is not a religious struggle. It’s a political struggle, just with religious overtones.
Indeed. Even if they all became atheists overnight, Palestinians will still need a place to live with jobs, water, electricity, security and economic opportunity.
Imprisoning them in desert ghettos and blockading them will only further breed resentment and violence.
I agree with you. Which is why every time either side injects religion into it, they muddy the waters. Imagine if all religion were forcibly subtracted from the entire dialogue and they just had to negotiate over armistice, land, and rights. Seems like it might actually have a chance. But with zealots on both sides, it’ll never get down to pragmatics.
I think it’s much better known how Islam is full of shit. If you ever want to know how full of shit Judaism is, go learn about the ultra orthodox. The labyrinthine contortions of keeping kosher are enough for me to call crazy.
But I think at the bottom, it’s not about religion for the Jews of Israel. It’s about racial identity and self determination. Unfortunately, they chose to create a home in perhaps the most contentious place possible. They did this to tap into religious belief as a source of zeal and solidarity.
So even if Israel is not primarily a religious phenomenon, it decided it was going to play with religion and double down on religion. This helps mask the fact that it’s basically an ethnostate. They’ve been hiding their racial ethnostate behind accusations of anti-semitism for a long, long time.
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Outlawing religion wouldn’t solve the problem, religion is used as an excuse to further political goals and rally people under ideologies, it’s not the cause of it. If there were no religion, they’d just find something else to rally people under be it ethnicity, political ideology or something else.
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Outlawing religion has caused some pretty evil stuff to happen.
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Yeah, education is the answer.
However
Erik Prince, founder of Blackrock, just happened to have a sister, Betsy Devos, who may have colluded with him to dismantle the efficacy of public education in an effort to keep a uneducated populace that votes for continued blind military spending, enriching their family beyond their wildest dreams.
And she’s still pulling strings, still fucking up America’s public education for personal gain.
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All I hear here is that we need to cook some people and eat them …
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Have ever straight up outlawed religion? All the evils seem to be one religion imposing it’s might on another.
The worst thing we got from ignoring religion outright was modern science.
Yes many countries have tried in the past. Communist countries, USSR and the Khmer Rouge.
If religion disappeared overnight, extremism and violence would still exist. Humans are tribal superstitious people. If mankind has massive physical brawls over sports teams then they’ll find something new to fight over even if it wasn’t religion.
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Bro, i don’t know what you’re smoking but I want some.
So, everyone has to have judeo-christian ethics? Are you fucking kidding me? You do understand that most religions are basically a rehash of the same shit? You also understand that it’s hard to be ethical when you are subject to genocide?
They would come for us? JFC, you’re either ignorant or just brainwashed. Those people are just like you and me. They want to live a normal life, have kids, enjoy life. Just because they have a different religion does not make them subhuman.
The only acceptable way to treat someone subhuman is in a consenting sexual scenario. Everything else is abhorrent.
Man I don’t know where to begin.
First, the Quran does NOT say to “exterminate everyone who isn’t Muslim.” The Quran says that Jews and Christians worship the same God and that they are to be protected as equal citizens. It also says that Churches and Synagogues are places where the same God is worshipped and so Muslims are commanded to protect those houses of worship. Theres a reason the Golden Age of Judaism occurred under Islamic rule, as Jews were protected while the rest of Europe led pogroms against them.
Second, Jews and Muslims lived together peacefully in the Middle East for over 1400 years and still do in places like Morocco and Tunisia. There’s a lot of current outrage over Israel massacring Arabs and stealing their land but that conflict is barely 70 years old. Heck, there was a new non-Israeli synagogue built in Lebanon and even Hizbullah said they supported it.
I’m a practicing Muslim, my college Jewish roommates would be surprised to hear you think I wanted them dead. My religion actually tells me to protect them as I would the rest of my neighbors. It’s really clear you know absolutely nothing about Islam; you should pick up the Quran and read it from page 1. It’s short and you’d be surprised at how it doesn’t match the false stereotype you hold.
Wow, you really showed them huh, and didn’t come off like a frothing retard at all.
The Quran says a lot of things, sometimes contradictory. It’s best to see how the followers interpret them and which they hold to.
Looks like the author is suffering from amnesia.
Always so interesting when these things happen, every internet commenter is an expert on any complex situation.
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