By that you mean the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and not ‘The Jews must be driven to the sea’, right?
By that you mean the illegal settlements in the West Bank
This was the interpretation I upvoted for, so I hope it’s what was meant.
Oh sweet summer child.
They don’t need to be driven away, but the borders of Israel should be dissolved and all housing fairly redistributed.
Moderates could and do live side by side without issues.
The “issues” are all those extremists. You can’t reason with them and they won’t stop until they destroy you.
All those extremists that were voted into power, are cheered for by Palestinians, and represent Palestine in the media and in international relations?
At first I thought you were talking about Israel and its extremist government, not Palestine, where about 44% of the people are under 18. For additional info, the last election in Palestine was in 2006 and Hamas got 44.45% of the vote while Fatah got 41.43%.
Even Palestinians outside of Palestine celebrate when there is a successful attack of their leaders (which is currently Hamas) on civilians.
Additionally, Fatah is a hateful and extremist group as well. This is a recent quote of Fatah’s president Mahmoud Abbas:
“They say that Hitler killed the Jews for being Jews, and that Europe hated the Jews because they were Jews. No. It was clearly explained that they fought them because of their social role and not their religion,” Mr Abbas says at one point. Later, he specifies that he was referring to the role of Jews involving “usury, money and so on”.
Fatah is often seen as a type of counter to Hamas, less extremist and secular. But Fatah sprung from the Muslim Brotherhood, just like Hamas. They are the group behind the assassination of the Jordan Prime Minister and the murder on the 11 Israeli athletes in 1972 Olympics in Munich.
You mean like when Israelis egg on war crimes and reinforce it by voting in a far right-wing government and only move further and further to the right with each election? Again, I remind you that most Palestinians weren’t even old enough to vote in the last election held in 2006.
based AF. Everyone lives together and learns to get along.
How is that supposed to work when Israel, among other things, allows pride parades and Palestine puts homosexual men into prison for 10 years?
It’s called laws sir. You write them and then people follow them. There are plenty of Palestinians that have immigrated to where I’m at and surprisingly I know of no decade long vigilante detentions. That’s part of the learning process. Everyone gets to learn acceptance, which I think is preferable to the current state of things.
I don’t know in what world you live but just put out laws and people will follow them doesn’t seem to be a success story when religious extremists are involved.
Ah, but that’s when other laws come into play. It’s a system. A system of laws. Look at America, nobody talks about it but Hillary Clinton didn’t used to be a fan of gay people, she got over it, along with a bunch of other boomers. That’s when the push for laws kicked in and more protections were afforded.
Israel and Palestine combined would be neither, it would be something new. You enshrine rights in your constitution and make it clear that nobody can deny anyone else those rights. Everyone has to give up a bit of what they thought was important, and those who can’t let go of their ultra nationalist vision or violence against gays can go sit in time out. They don’t get blown up, or shot or treated like animals. They just go get to think about it. OR they could leave and go places that are more in line with their whatever way of thinking. That’s compromise. Nobody gets everything they wanted but you get enough.
Also, apologies for the sir part. I hadn’t looked at your username and either way it was careless to possibly misgender you, even if it was meant in a joking way.
What people seem to not want to accept though, is, that as long as there are extremist groups peace won’t be achieved.
I am from Germany and I know peace and friendship can be achieved between the most unlikely groups. But you need to do something against the hatred on your own side. And I don’t see Palestine doing that. At all. The opposite really.
Liberal values tend to develop better in areas that aren’t war-torn. Also, Israel is substantially behind the Western world in queer acceptance, so let’s not act like they’re a shining beacon just because they’ve had a couple decades head start.
It’s for easy access
They can have Germany.
Germany was sadly not the only country which mass killed and exiled Jews. Perhaps, you know, read up about it?
Doesnt matter
Lmao crying about Palestine having land taken from them they never had in the first place and then coming up with this is peak satire
Palestinians weren’t living there for centuries before these European Jews came in? Oh right, I forgot, supposedly God is a divine real estate agent who promised these Europeans land in Palestine thousands of years in the future.
You mean like Jewa weren’t living there for millenia before these Muslim came in?
What the fuck is that argument.
No they weren’t. The Arab people lived there first. Proto-Jews moved there and left from there, they were nomadic, pulling ideas for their religion everywhere they went.
The Arab people continued to live there for 2 thousand more years until they were drove out by canaanites.
Many wars happen. Civil War 200 years after the Arabs were drove out established the site of Jerusalem as a Jewish kingdom. They write in thier books the land is promised to them. 3500 years of history erased.
Over the course of 1000 years. Roman’s take the land by force and rebuild. Christians take the land by force and rebuild. Persians take the land and rebuild. Then the Christians take it again.
Meanwhile the expelled Arab people have been developing thier own beliefs and formed Islam.
Around 600CE they rose from the desert and peacefully took Jerusalem(by all recorded accounts from Jews and Christians). Where they rebuilt holy sites for all 3 religions.
Soon after the crusades happened and there is much more change in hands of the land.
No, no, the west is never at fault. Sure, Germany killed six millions Jews, but it’s best that Britain divided up some foreign land and pushed the “problem” (that the anti-Semites in the west caused) onto other people while scolding them for not liking having their homes taken.
Jews settled there before the formation of Israel and the location was specifically favored by the Jews.
Yeah, Jews had lived there for a long time, then the zionist movement pushed for mass emigration to Palestine and that’s where problems arose.
Jews drove out the Arab who settled the land 3500 years before.
Palestenians just want to kill all the zionist jews so they dont have a home. Is that so hard of an ask?
Hamas, not Palestinians. And they want to kill all Israelis, not just Zionist Jews.
This was only 2 months before the hamas charter revision in May 2017. This is the same charter that says they need to jihad against the jews until judgment day.
I don’t think they want to kill Arab-Israelis. Everyone else, sure.
Even though, in 7-Oct-23 some Arab and Bedouin Israelis were killed too…
Fatma Alttalaqat, 35, a mother of nine children, was murdered by Hamas terrorists near Ofakim on October 7, 2023.
If the cartels took complete control of Mexico, stopped all elections, and then stated their goal was to kill all Americans; do you think that we might start patrolling our border a little harder and deliver Mexico a bit of freedom?
The current situation is an absolute disaster and a sad case for innocent civilians who couldn’t even vote out Hamas if they wanted to. But there is a reason that Israel is in the West Bank in the first place, there will never be peace in that region until Hamas is stripped of all power in Gaza. Israel is surrounded by religious extremists on all sides that would genocide them if given the chance.
.
The USAAF killed more japanese in one firebombing raid than both of their nukes did combined, so for me its weird that you point out the use of nukes as something terrible when they were regularly doing worse.
I guess because it’s something that can’t be immediately pointed out as something others did too.
Probably because the Japanese were already in the process of negotiating surrender before any nukes were dropped.
If the cartels took complete control of Mexico
So, in this situation does Mexico still have an economy? I assume tourism has stopped, but are they still a petroleum exporter? Do they still make cars and trucks for export? Do they still grow Avocados and sell them to the US? Because the Palestinians in Gaza don’t really have an economy to speak of, so unless you first reduce Mexico’s economy to something barely self-sustaining, it really isn’t a fair comparison.
then stated their goal was to kill all Americans
Not much of a cartel if they’re killing their best customers.
we might start patrolling our border a little harder
See, that’s a key difference. Nobody’s saying that Israel shouldn’t patrol their own border. What’s a bigger issue is that they’re patrolling the other borders too. Israel is in a position to cut Gaza off completely. Israel can completely shut off water, food, fuel and power to Gaza. Even before this conflict they shut off tourism and fishing.
In your scenario, imagine the US Navy had carrier strike groups in the Gulf of Mexico and along the Pacific coast, preventing even fishing boats from leaving the Mexican shores. Now imagine the Guatemala and Belize borders were closed too, so that the entire country of Mexico was essentially a prison. That’s the situation in Gaza.
Also, in your scenario, is the US government encouraging Americans to move to Mexico and set up little American compounds there, either by building their own houses or by kicking Mexicans out of theirs and moving in? When Americans go to Mexico and take over a Mexican house, are those Americans protected by the US military? And do they get the protection of US laws, as if the families still lived in the US?
there is a reason that Israel is in the West Bank in the first place
Yes, they have extremely unfriendly relationships with almost every neighbouring country, and they seized that territory after one of the many wars with those neighbours, and have continued to occupy it counter to international law. That, of course, leads to extremely unfriendly relationships with almost every neigbouring country, which leads to conflict, which leads to a need to try to control that territory.
there will never be peace in that region until Hamas is stripped of all power in Gaza
And Hamas (or a group like Hamas) will always be popular in Gaza until people in Gaza have a reason to stop hating Israel, which will only happen when Israel changes the way it treats them. But, Israel is unlikely to treat them better because they know that the people there support Hamas (or groups like Hamas) because of how Israel treats them.
I appreciate this post as it adds needed context to the situation especially about the power imbalance between Israel and Palestine that my post doesn’t touch on (I wasn’t trying to mislead, just keep things simple)
Israel, for better or worse (mostly worse for Palestinians in Gaza) get treated like the US’ little brother because they are in an ever important geopolitical location for a US Ally so they get away with more than they should. The violence against Palestinians then creates a vicious cycle of shows of force and retaliation that helps the current Israel regime maintain power and aid as well.
Like a said it’s a horrible situation and there is room to be anti-hamas and pro-palestinian and room to criticize the IDF’s actions and not be anti-Semitic. Thank you for your comment
Yeah, I agree with this post. It’s a really fucked up situation. In addition to what you mentioned, there are the various Arab neighbours of Israel whose policies have mostly made the problem worse. There’s Iran funding / supporting Hamas. Syria and Iran funding / supporting Hezbollah. Qatar hosting Hamas leadership. Jordan and Egypt refusing to allow Palestinian refugees into their countries.
The main point I was making was that there’s support for Hamas in Gaza because of how badly the Palestinians in Gaza are treated by Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza are treated horribly by Israel, partially to punish them for supporting Hamas, and partially to try to make it harder for Hamas to attack them. A military operation can’t defeat Hamas, even if they kill every current Hamas fighter, the collateral damage will just convince more people to join Hamas. The only thing that has any hope of working is to destroy the support for Hamas. But, the Hamas terrorist attack has worked spectacularly. I don’t mean how effective they were in killing and capturing Israelis, but in terms of provoking the exact response from Israel they wanted. Israel is playing into the hands of Hamas in exactly the same way that the US played into the hands of Osama bin Laden in its response to the 9/11 attacks.
Wait. How does Israel control the Gaza-Egypt border?
Egyptians are poor and Egypt’s aid is determined by how friendly they are with Israel.
This comment right here gives me hope for lemmy. First person I’ve seen who can think for himself here.
Objectively speaking, it doesn’t sound like lemmy is for you then.
It will be. It started as a leftist haven but that’s crumbling, too.
Let me improve your analogy.
Imagine if the Mexicans say that Mexicans and Natives Americans are the same (even though Mexico has so much European blood and influence) and started claiming the United States and Canada as their holy land. Then every powerful European country agrees with Mexico. The Americans and Canadians will then complain to the UN and the UN will reply “why haven’t you just repartitioned your land better with the Mexicans?”
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Fucking preach
Are the Arab nations that expelled the Jews in the 40s and told them to go to Israel, going to give them their homes and citizenship back?
Didn’t think so.
Europe is not Arab nations.
Jews were expelled by the hundreds of thousands from Iraq, Jordan and other Arab Nations in the 40s.
Jews have always lived in Judea or fought to maintain their presence and they don’t seem keen to leave anytime soon now that they’ve been granted statehood.
Jews were expelled by the hundreds of thousands from Iraq, Jordan and other Arab Nations in the 40s.
That was in large part thanks to the British colonizing and partitioning the old Ottoman Empire. The Palestinian Mandate was, after all, their idea. The Brits wanted to force a mass exodus of Jews from England and the zionists were the useful idiots who would get the job done. If you really want to go deep, you can trace a lot of that slander back to “The International Jew”, composed and published by American entrepreneur Henry Ford.
By the 40s, Jews got scapegoated in the Middle East the same way they’d been scapegoated in Europe a decade earlier. Sunni and Shia factions turned to infighting across territory the Brits had parceling out with a deliberate eye on maximizing conflict. And then we can consider a series of foreign-backed coups - from the military occupation of Egypt during WW1 to the '41 forced abdication of Iranian leader Reza Shah Pahlavi - that destablized the region for decades.
There’s a certain irony in Churchill’s “Final Solution” for the Jewish people being not all that different from Hitler’s original plan. Shove them all into a tiny patch of land on the Mediterranean coastline, as far from mainland Europe as we can get them, and transform them into a client state of the world’s largest arms exporters.
So you’re blaming Churchill for the Jews losing their land in Arab controlled territories but it’s the Jews fault Arabs lost land in British controlled areas that were established as the nation of Israel? A nation that was immediately attacked by 5 countries I probably need to remind you.
Ya, that’s exactly the Anti Semitic bullshit I’d expect.
Lemmie know when the Jews will be given back their lands in the surrounding Arab Nations and I’ll start listening to the calls for the same to happen within Israel.
So you’re blaming Churchill for the Jews losing their land in Arab controlled territories
I’m blaming Churchill for exacerbating ethnic tensions as Secretary of State for the British Colonies because it was in the job description.
Ya, that’s exactly the Anti Semitic bullshit I’d expect.
If you think putting the blame for the partitioning of the Palestinian Mandate on the people who did it is Antisemitism…
I’m curious to hear your thoughts on the genocide of a Semitic people ongoing in Palestine since the Nakba of '48.
My thoughts are that the UN resolution establishing Israel clearly calls for the necessary actions to occur to allow for Eretz Israel which unfortunately required the relocation of some residents. Article 39, says that any attempt to alter the settlement called for in the resolution to be addressed. That’s political speak for 'gtfo or we’ll do it for you '. The resolution also called on the Palestinians to get on board or get out of the way. The Palestinians didn’t follow the mandate, they started a fight instead.
That’s entirely different from the removal of Jews from the surrounding Arab Nations, who had no such mandate from the United Nations.
As for your claims it’s ongoing, as soon as Israel was established they were attacked. They’ve been attacked a dozen times since, never being the one who started the fighting either. Nasser amassing troops on the border and threatening to start a war, triggering an engagement isn’t Israel starting a war. That’s the only one that’s even possibly debatable. When Hamas stops, the fighting stops.
Your reference to the people of the region also being semitic is either out of ignorance or again, Antisemitism because the origins of that phrase have a very very clear anti-semitic history. Only those with the loudest dog whistles are out there trying to make the claim that being anti-Semitic includes the other groups of the region other than Jews.
You seem like one of those people who learned about this situation 3 weeks ago. Suggest shutting up, sitting down and learning something that doesn’t come from tik tok. The history is well set out.
My thoughts are that the UN resolution establishing Israel clearly calls for the necessary actions to occur to allow for Eretz Israel which unfortunately required the relocation of some residents.
I think Andrew Jackson said something to the same effect while negotiating with Cherokee Nation.
That’s entirely different from the removal of Jews from the surrounding Arab Nations, who had no such mandate from the United Nations.
Can you remind me how many deciding votes the Arab Nations had in the UN when Eretz Israel was established?
as soon as Israel was established they were attacked
That’s a very myopic view of history, as it skips over all five Aliyahs, the Arab Revolt of '36, and half a decade of Haganah guerrilla activity throughout the Palestinian Mandate during the 1940s against the British military. These domestic insurgencies - some of which even included inter-Zionist infighting - ran straight up to the day of Independence as part of the '47-'48 Palestine Civil War (a conflict that had been on-and-off since 1920). To claim Israel was immediately attacked, you’d have to limit your historical perception to the brief ceasefire from April to May of '48, and conveniently ignore the Nakba which had begun the prior year.
Your reference to the people of the region also being semitic is either out of ignorance or again, Antisemitism because the origins of that phrase have a very very clear anti-semitic history.
So using the term “semitic” is itself anti-Semitic?
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Jews are from Israel and have a right of return
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Actually, native Palestinians aren’t really Semitic in origin
Absolutely incoherent. This feels like I’m trying to explain to a Nazi where the term “Aryan” comes from.
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Always fun when people let you know right away that they don’t know what they are talking about.
Palestinians have been repeatedly kicked out of their homes for decades and decades ever since the late 40s, with their lands, homes and lives destroyed over and over again. An Israeli person born into the conflict who hasn’t actively supported ethnic cleansing isn’t guilty. This is a cursed problem because Palestinians deserve to have all the land back, but there are plenty of innocent Israelis who do not deserve to be robbed of their homes due to the crimes of previous generations.
Since Israel’s actions have made a 2-state solution impossible, the only potential just solution would be a single state where both Palestinians and Israelis are free and equal citizens, and Palestinians are paid reparations. This is currently impossible because both populations are immersed in a cycle of violence and desire for revenge. So we should, at the very moment, focus on solutions that seek to immediately stop the continued murders, and hope that this calms down the bloodlust as the months and years come by. I don’t see any way in which this is possible without the joint efforts of the historical allies of Israel and Hamas twisting their arms in order to prevent further abuse, and possibly establish a justice system that oversees and judges the crimes from actors of one side against the other.
I appreciate this comment. I have had a circular problem trying to determine a way out of the “both sides suck, but right now you suck more”. Now actually convincing the 2 populations this and getting the political will power to enact it is a whole other beast. But for the moment, this internet stranger is on board.
I don’t know, the more this goes on the more I can see The Onion Future Report being a possibility…
“Violence reamed the Gaza scrap today as fighting broke out between the one remaining Palestinian and the one remaining Israeli…”
And when you say Israelis should leave, you don’t mean Arab or Palestinian Israelis right? We know exactly which kind of Israeli you want specifically removed, the Jewish kind.
But even if we follow your argument, I’m native Mayan/pipil. I’ll support your idea that Israel return the land, once you fucking return mine and leave my continent.
Why am I guessing you’re white and blonde with 1/16th Mayan ancestry?
I’m brown, black hair, with 67% Aztec/Mayan ancestry and my mother was born in a village without electricity or running water, but sure, keep being racist
and my mother was born in a village without electricity or running water
What does that have to do with anything?
It paint the opposite picture of what the person they were replying to was alluding
What do Mayan ancestry and being raised in village without running have to do with each other?
Is everyone of Mayan descent raised in poverty? No? Then is why he pointing out that his mother was?
He’s just looking for pity points.
No, it shows that they’re not a privileged person cosplaying oppression.
What do privilege and oppression have to do with Mayan ancestry?
Are all people of Mayan ancestry unprivileged and oppressed? No? Then why bring it up?
Pity points 🙄
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On the plus side, with your parents directly related, the holiday planning is pretty easy to figure out
Cuz you’re an asshole?
Or because I know it’s usually Americans who want to have a moral high ground claiming to be natives
Right. Cuz that’s a thing…
Yes, white Americans LARPing as natives is an actual thing
🤡
Your overwhelming argument has defeated me. Now, take this medal as a reward 🏅
Lmaooo blud’s never met the averaged mixed-race mexican apparently
Are you stupid? The average mexican isn’t Mayan, they have native ancestry but are of Hispanic culture
Why do you think that is?
Because the Spanish mixed with the natives
Yes, diluting their race to extinction. This is not a “genocide” per se (though the slaughters were), and is to be expected from immigration - but it has led to Mayans’ distinctiveness disappearing.
So you’re against racemixing? You literally just called it genocide, which is what a lot of great replacement white supremacists believe
The average mexican
The average American is white and fat and 39 years old.
Does that mean all Amercans are white, fat, and 39 years old?
- There are an estimated 9 million Mayan people
- An estimated 8 million live in Guatemala.
- they speak these languages
- Through the self-rule of states in Mexico and Guatamala and the legal framework known as Indigenismo maya people have a surprising amount of autonomy and self-rule.
I know, it’s just improbable that they’d be on a place full of Americans, since they aren’t even common on Spanish language forums
An American “Latinx” LARPing as a Mayan is a more likely option
And why exactly do you think present day ‘Mayans’ are so mixed?
It’s not being mixed what I’m talking about, I’m talking about being barely native and claiming to be one
Mixed is what you call “latinos”
Let me spell it out for you:
The Mayans are fucking dead
Straight from the first sentence of Wikipedia:
The Maya civilization (/ˈmaɪə/) was a Mesoamerican civilization that existed from antiquity to the early modern period.
Was
Absolutely zero people are alive today with 100% Mayan ancestry.
Civilization is not the same thing as a people.
To also quote Wikipedia,
A civilization (British English: civilisation) is any complex society characterized by the development of the state, social stratification, urbanization, a currency, and symbolic systems of communication beyond natural spoken language (namely, a writing system).
To quote a different Wikipedia article
The Maya (/ˈmaɪə/) are an ethnolinguistic group of indigenous peoples of Mesoamerica. The ancient Maya civilization was formed by members of this group, and today’s Maya are generally descended from people who lived within that historical region. Today they inhabit southern Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Honduras. “Maya” is a modern collective term for the peoples of the region; however, the term was not historically used by the indigenous populations themselves.
In short, that sentence doesn’t say what you think it says.
You’re insane.
Nice rebuttal
Gengis Khan is dead too. The Mongol Empire is long gone. He’s known for being ancestor to millions today. Do you understand that part?
They’re not? Based on a study of Guatemalan genetics,
Wish we could but like the Palestine/Israel conflict we all know we can’t. Just need to score internet points.
Wish also that all this insanity had people being specific about what kind of reparations would help heal the wounds rather than arguing that this is the point where a thousand year’s blood feud should end with the complete destruction of an ethnicity.
Both these violent theocracies need to go. Fuck them all.
Sorry, we like it here
So because someone is an idiot, everyone gets to be idiots? I fully support leaving native land to native people, but we gotta start somewhere and that might aswell be Israel/Palestine.
Or maybe the answer to past ethnonationalism is not modern ethnonationalism?
oh man that is the edgiest of edgy. such a burn bro. such a burn.
Didn’t realize that ‘ethnonationalism bad’ was such a hot take.
you don’t get the nuance man. hes saying the guy is white. regardless of what reality is. so it hits on so many levels. maybe white. maybe just some native blood. oh man. next level shit.
So people who were born in Israel must be displaced and have their homes and lives taken too? That’s your solution?
Seems like ur fine when its happening to Arabs.
How did this get downvoted. You’re completely right about their hypocrisy.
Because it’s not actively happening in Gaza. Gaza has the 1967 borders and no settlements. Israel evicted every Jewish settler in the mid 2000s at an honest effort of peace. And Gaza was suppose to be the model for peace and a 2 state solution in the region.
Instead of peace there’s been constant, increasing conflict coming from Gaza. And not just against Israel, but against Egypt and the West Bank too.
This is simply not true.
What part isn’t true?
- There have been no new settlement in Gaza Since the Disengagement?
- Gaza has the 1967 borders.
- All settlers in the Gaza strip were evicted
- The Gaza Disengagement Plan was an honest attempt at Peace by Israel’s left wing coalition?
- Violence from Hamas and originating in Gaza has increased since it took over the territory.
- Violence from Hamas has increased since it took over the territory, not just against Israel but against Egypt too.
- Violence from Hamas has increased since it took over the territory, not just against Israel but against West Bank too.
Because it hasn’t happened to most of the residents of Gaza, the land Hamas administers. Gaza has had the 1967 borders since like 2004 and 1/2 the population of Gaza is below 18. So most Gazan have never had land taken from them.
Lmfao. Idk how u can be this wrong
Gaza has the 1967 borders. And in 2004-2005 had all of its Jewish settlements forcibly evicted by Israel.
So most of the population of Gaza (under 18) cannot have had their land stolen from them, as Israel hasn’t stolen any land since then.
This is simply a lie that is easily disproven by a quick Google search.
Why?
Why not start by giving all of western Massachusetts back to the Wampanoag, Upstate NY to the Iroquois tribes, and the rest of the US to whichever other native tribe was originally lived there?
Or start by giving Australia back to the aboriginals?
Should apartheid have ended by deporting all the white South Africans back to Europe? Or was it a good thing that it ended by, you know, giving black South Africans rights?
Personally, I’m all for a one state solution, so long as it’s one secular, democratic state that protects everyone’s rights.
“returning the lands” is literally denying Israel’s right to existance
No, they (both sides) need to respect the other sides historical right to the land and need accept that they might need to live beside each other if they want to live on that piece of land.
OMG YOU CANT JUST SUGGEST PEOPLE BE TOLERANT
I BET YOU JUST WANT EVERYONE TO STOP KILLING EACH OTHER.
YOU MUST WANT ISRAEL/PALESTINE/NO-ONE TO WIN YOU OUT OF TOUCH WESTERNER.
y-yes?
HEY EVERYONE, WE GOT A PRO-ISRAEL, OR PRO-PALESTINE, OR PRO-BOTH-SIDES HERE. MAKE THEM FEEL ASHAMED FOR HAVING, OR NOT HAVING, A RADICAL OPINION ON A DISTANT, NEVER ENDING RELIGIOUS CONFLICT.
Only one side categorically rejects that, and it’s not Israel.
Yea im not so sure about that when it has been Israel who has been taking more and more land.
Since the end of the cold war Israelis have pushed her to peace. Since the assassination of Rabin Israel, while divided on the issue, has largely been willing to go down a path to peace, independent coexistence. As evidenced by the various peace deals they’ve signed to that extend.
The violence from Gaza after the 2004 deal, which established the 67 borders and evicted all settlers from Gaza; has unfortunately caused Israel to stop believing peace is possible.
Gaza was a prove it deal, if there’s no peace im Gaza there’s no reason to believe a similar action in the West Bank would lead to peace.
After being attacked with the intention of removing the state from existence.
Man, imagine being this stupid and thinking “I’m not stupid”.
Imagine not being able to read Hamas’s charter.
From wikipedia article on a city of Acre:
Today there are roughly 48,000 people who live in Acre. Among Israeli cities, Acre has a relatively high proportion of non-Jewish residents, with 32% of the population being Arab.
Now, how many Jewish residents there are in Gaza strip (after 2005 unilateral disengagement)? Which side seems to respect the other side historical right to live in peace?
No country (ethnostate especially) has a right to exist. The people have rights to live unmolested lives to the fullest (just like the Palestinians), but states have no rights.
Do you know why Israel was created? What happened that caused Jewish people to want to have a place to live?
States have no rights other than those they can enforce at the end of a gun.
Are we referring to the right to exist in ancestral lands where largely, the only claim to such lands are a millennias old religious text? The current occupants of said land have actual, clear historical precedence rooted in fact to occupy said land.
Also, as others have pointed out, I think it’s pretty clear that Israel could exist anywhere. The concept of a nation is largely driven by the shared collective of human experiences, culture, norms, and beliefs of the people that inhabit said Nation, not geographical boundaries.
But they need the land their fairytale book specifies, otherwise their magical sky wizard will be angered.
Jews have always lived in that area (called Transjordan) and one of the reasons the British empire created the ethnostate of Israel was to stop another mass exodus of Jews happening. This time in a land where they have lived for thousands of years. Their claim is not different from the one of Palestinians.
There is plenty of archeologial and genetic proof that Jews are native to the area. It’s not simply a claim because of religion.
Palestine on the other hand was not happy with the decision from the beginning and didn’t want to accept sharing the land with a group that was a (not well liked) minority.
Now we know that probably Israel also wasn’t happy with the sharing, though they pretended to be (or perhaps they were, who knows). Because they proceeded to take land from Palestine.
“Israel” can exist anywhere. Doesn’t have to be on top of Palestine.
Where would you recommend they go?
The reason it is where it is now is because they were trying to find somewhere to go when fleeing the Holocaust, and literally everywhere said, “no, eff off” until GB was like, “here, go live in this colony that we have that’s kinda your ancestral homeland or whatever.”
So you’re pointing out Israel was no longer a colony at the time? Not sure what your point is here.
Are you stupid
Edit:
Sorry I’m stupid, I meant to post this
What is it with people calling others morons and idiots when asked to clarify. Come on now.
Sorry, I’m very jaded by people being intentionally stupid, I on the other hand am just stupid…
Yeah, I’m with the other guy. Your link just talks about how British Colonies had some level of autonomy after 1929. I’m not sure how that is relevant…
Cheers, I posted the wrong link
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Germany.
Before or after they throw out those of the Muslim refugees who are already now indulging in anti-semitism in Germany?
Not relevant
Palestine can be anywhere. It doesn’t have to be on top of the Byzantine Empire territory. The land clearly belongs to Italy.
And if someone else was still claiming that land legitimately I’d favor them too. See how objectivity works when ur not a complete hack?
There has never been a “Palestine”
The only country that ever tried to create Palestine was Israel.
Not true. There has never been a Palestinian state. Hude difference u don’t seem to get. Go Google 1948 Palestine map.
I’d rather not take sides on this clusterfuck of an issue but I do want to point out that if your ancestors leave your homeland for hundreds of years and then you return, your claim to the land in a self-righteous ethnostate is a little questionable.
And then if you can hold that land against multiple invading countries at the same time and defeat them in six days, your claim is really fucking strong.
So that land is just Israel until they can’t hold it.
Well, morally questionable, that is. But yeah, anyone can be really strong when funded by a major world superpower.
North Korea is funded by a major world power and isn’t strong at all.
I didn’t say it was a guarantee. I said that they can be strong. If billionaire gives you one dollar you can say “funded by” yet you still have one dollar.
rent to own?
Yes, that is correct.
Gaza West Bank and Israel all have to be dissolved. “Give the land back” implies land can be owned at all, which fundamentally violates the right of others to freedom of movement.
Guthrie said it best,
There was a big, high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said “Private Property”
But on the backside, it didn’t say nothing
That side, was made for you and me
What needs to happen is the abolition of Israel and Palestine and the replacement of both with a south levant confederation that absolutely guarantees the equal rights of all citizens, and absolutely cracks down to the draconian nth degree against supremacism or separatism.
The Israelis have ruined the two state solution with their settlements in WB and in the Golan heights, so now they get to live with the consequences of democratic accountability instead of doing the rez shit America pulled where nobody felt like answering if indigenous folks were citizens too until they were demographically outnumbered enough to not retaliate against the politicians that screwed them.
Hamas are not freedom fighters, their the corrupt rez boss family that wittingly or not are the extension of the state’s oppression over the people.
Also before anyone tries to cry
wolfAnti-Semite, Israel’s a major funder of stateside politicians that ferment antisemitic sentiments by tolerating it among their supporters. Why you may ask? Because American Jews rejected Zionism heavily since their state of being in the US served as a direct refutation of the idea that Jews needed their own ethnostate to ever be safe. Israeli Jews often openly contempt American Jews for being “woke” since even orthodox american Jews can be considered more liberal than their European and Israeli counterparts.Israel wants to make America as hostile to Jews within their borders as possible because every family that flees to Tel Aviv over a swastika painted on the synagogue is another house they get to take from the Palestinians, and another “point” in the score in their vendetta against American Jews having rejected the initial call at Israel’s establishment.
“Give the land back” implies land can be owned at all, which fundamentally violates the right of others to freedom of movement.
That’s a compelling idealistic position. But what we’re really looking at right now is a simple “Might Makes Right” arrangement. Israel controls its territory firstly because it successfully perpetrated the Nakba back in '48 and purged its current territory of Palestinians. And secondly because it defeated its neighbors back in the '67 Seven-Day War.
In that sense, the land IS owned. It is owned by the victors in these incredibly violent conflicts.
Hamas are not freedom fighters, their the corrupt rez boss family that wittingly or not are the extension of the state’s oppression over the people.
They’re whats left of the government that has been smashed up time and time again by a rival military. If they look and act like a crime family, it might be interesting to interrogate what kind of conflicts other crime families emerged from. Check out Operation Gladio and its influence over Italian-American mafias. Or look into how the collapse of the USSR gave birth to enormous European criminal cartels. Ask what happened in the wake of the American Civil War and how organized crime along the Gulf Coast emerged as a result. Or the Spanish and Chinese Civil Wars, for that matter.
At some point, trying to point at an organization and say “These people are uncompromisingly evil” misses the historical events that gave birth to them. The Israel Government is a consequence of European anti-Semitism and of the Cold War politics of the Middle East. Hamas is a consequence of Israeli police and paramilitary transforming Gaza into an enormous black market by necessity.
What comes next will be a consequence of what came before it. And moralizing the actors does nothing to illuminate what to anticipate next.
A no state solution? I’m in favor.
Boy what a hoot these comments are
I knew coming in here they’d be an absolute shitshow and they have not disappointed a bit
Well, the first thing has yet to happen.
Has Israel made any promises about respecting Palestine’s right to exist?
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers
the Palestiniansthe governing body of palestinians offered to Israel -None
- Isreal outstretched arms in peace… Just after laying waste to people’s homes and killing innocent lives.
The fact of the matter is no one will agree to live in a portion of thier homeland, especially one were priced farmland and religious sites lay.
They have historically lived in the area longer than the Jewish population.
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And what happened before 1940? And what happened before 1920? And what happened…
This conflict is based on religion. There will never be one true “owner of the land” because land doesnt work like that.
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if only one side is going to get the land due to lack of action from the international community, then it deserves to be Israel.
It’s a vibes-based thing, then? Cool
At the end of the day this whole thing is too big and old for me and all i will contribute is dunking on antisemites and contrarians
But the Holocaust happened so the state of Israel is allowed to genocide others apparently
I mean the jews that fled to israel were being genocided everywhere. This all started way before the holocaust my dude. This conflict is not one to be very wisecrack about. How far back do you look for who is the baddie and whos the goodie?
So, what happened in 1948 that lead to 1949
The Nakba
The Jews were not the original inhabitants of the land. That claim is solely on early Arabs. They lived, settled and thrived for 3000 years before they were driven out by Canaanites.
Not only were the Arabs the original inhabitants of the area but they also lived there the longest amount of time.
Pretty much, yes.
Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich delivered a speech in Paris saying the notion of a Palestinian people was artificial.
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian nation. There is no Palestinian history. There is no Palestinian language,” he said in France late Sunday. He spoke at a lectern draped with what appeared to be an image showing the map of Israel that included the occupied West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
You want Israel to give land back to Egypt and Jordan?
Why?
No, the current idea is to create a Palestinian state using the land that Israel currently occupies.
In 1988, with the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) intention to declare a Palestinian State, Jordan renounced all territorial claims to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories
But I suspect you are trying (and failing) to create some “gotcha” moment. Israel doesn’t have the legal right to annex Gaza, the West Bank, or East Jerusalem. They simply control it because they have more guns.
Israel doesn’t have the legal right to annex Gaza, the West Bank, or East Jerusalem. They simply control it because they have more guns.
That’s generally how “legal rights” have historically worked among nations.
It’s always funny when people act like they know about a subject, and then argue against things that have long been settled. Acquiring territory through war has been illegal since before Israel existed as a modern country.
It was recognized as a principle of international law that gradually deteriorated in significance until its proscription in the aftermath of World War II following the concept of crimes against peace introduced in the Nuremberg Principles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_conquest
It doesn’t matter what “historically worked”. Weapons in the past 100 years are too powerful to allow for conquest. Israel’s occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem violate international norms and the international community doesn’t recognize occupation as justified.
And they can’t just keep the land because they were attacked first. Only defensive wars are permitted under international law.
That’s not a “current” idea, and is only diplomatically material. Hell it’s only historically diplomatically material because Jordan and Egypt don’t give a rat’s ass about Palestinians after Palestinian refugees attempted coups in their countries.
My point is that the Gaza strip and West Bank were won in the Six Day War from Jordan and Egypt, so I’m not sure who OP means when they say “return land”
Palestine isn’t a country, wasn’t ever a country, and was only offered the possibility of becoming a country by Israel.
Palestine is recognised as a state by huge portions of the world. While, yes, it wasn’t a state in the history of the region, the Palestinian people lived in the region under British and formerly Ottoman rule. Israeli settlers haven’t taken land from the state of Palestine, but they have taken it from the people who have lived in Palestine since the 7th century.
This is just the same argument with different words. They took land from Egyptians and Jordanians when they won the war. There were no “Palestinian people” as any sort of political bloc, prior to 1967.
If the Palestinian people want their own county, they should take one of the many deals they’ve been offered to have their own country.
I’m not talking about the Gaza strip, I’m talking about the area that was once Mandatory Palestine. That land was conquered by the British during the fall of the Ottoman empire, and subsequently taken over to become (most of) what is now Israel and Palestine. Before the Mandate, you’re right that Palestine as an idea didn’t exist, but ther were still people there - most of them Arabs, as had been the case for a very long time before Britain invaded and allowed settlers in. Perhaps the Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine should have taken the “deal” offered them by the UN in 1947, but can you blame them? As far as they were concerned their home had been conquered by a colonial power, settlers had arrived from overseas, and now the UN wanted to slice Palestine in two and give half to the settlers! Since then, to the people who have been displaced, I imagine every new deal just seems like they’re being hemmed further into a corner. I understand why they wouldn’t accept, even though personally I agree that, at some point, they should have - much bloodshed would have been avoided.
Their home has already been conquered, several thousand years prior, and the British did not colonize the area.
Sorry who’s home was conquered when? The British Empire might not have colonised Palestine but they did conquer it and allow settlers in with the intention of forming a state for the Jews.
Don’t know why you are getting down voted when that’s literally what happened.
People don’t care about what’s factual. They care about what confirms their priors.
Again still being down voted. Alot! These pro Palestine need to actually read what has actually happened over there and what Israel and the Jewish have been through over there I got humbled real quick watching this.its funny how they can scream kill the Jews but when the Jews say kill the Palestinians it’s instantly pulled back. It’s only Hamas. Well didn’t jiltwr say kill and gas all Jews. We are walking right back to ww2 again it’s ridiculous.
https://youtu.be/dEoVzKyD_IM?si=bi0zByaQkvReT_1Q
And I know most will go eww Ben Shapiro. Dudes spewing facts look it up.
Actually, “Palestine” is the historic name for the region. Denying it’s existence is denying the existence of the Kingdom of Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
Your weird erasure of the concept of “Palestine” would be called anti-Semitic if you were talking about Israel. I’m just going to assume it’s bigotry at this point. Some Palestinians have roots going back thousands of years in the region. Israel is Palestine dummy.
So not a country, then, as your link confirms.
Facts again.
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“Shithead edgelord dunking on the West in the comments section”… check.
That’s a Lemmy Bingo! LET’S GOOO
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I literally typed it out in quotations
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It’s not a quotation, It’s me imagining that I’m reading out the label on a Bingo square of something that happens a little too often around here unprompted.
The better question is, why do you do that?
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Jews are from Judea, Arabs are from Arabia, the Arabs should give the Jews ALL their land back including Jordan, and the Africans all their land back, and fuck off back to Arabia :>/
Genetics and ancestry is a lot more messy than that.
Both Jews and Palestinians seem to have substantial native Levantine DNA with moderate admixtures from different groups.
If Ashkenazi Jews are indigenous to Israel despite having a significant amount of European maternal DNA, so are Palestinians. Genetically, Ashkenazim and Palestinians are cousins.
Shhh, your insulting the purity of their blood.
This is what always baffled me.
I’m a 2nd gen Palestinian American, I have more native Levant in me than most of these settler folks and I’ve never even been there.
This certainly doesn’t sound like a racist, expansionist, authoritarian take. Why don’t you speak a little more on what you’d like to do to the peoples of Arabia? I can’t tell, do you consider them people?
Especially precious is that Jordan was never part of Judea in significant part.
PugJesus, stop making sense all the time.
It’s a curse 😞
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This idiot thinks North Africans are Arab invaders
And we should split all mixed people down the middle and scatter their limbs across their respective land? Great idea! *sharpens machete*
I guess you also want all the non-indigenous people in the Americas to move back to where their ancestors came from, too? England and Spain are gonna get really crowded.
GTFO with this racist bullshit. What you’re calling for is called ethnic cleansing.
He actually straight up calls it a cleansing in a comment from one day ago:
Hamas and Hezbollah financier, Iran, who calls America the Great Satan, and Israel the Zionist Entity which it will wipe form the history books, two weeks after “Palestinian” Islamofacist Terrorists stormed into Israel and slaughtered, raped, and burnt close to 2 thousand Israelis, concerns are noted.
The war will end, once Hamas and PIJ are cleansed from Gaza, and then Gaza will look far different than it does today, with far greater buffers between where the Arabs will live and the Israeli border. It’s not going to end a millisecond before that is achieved, come what may.
We’ve got the US battle group in the Eastern Med, and we’re ready to take on all fucking comers.So yeah, do your part and report this guy. I have multiple times and nothing has been done.
There’s nothing to report in there. That comment is not against any rules.
who said I reported that? I just said he’s called for cleansing and to report him. To be clear though, I do believe his words are in the wheelhouse of hate speech. It’s a broad term though and open to interpretation.
Do you have no issue with the language that guy is using?
No, I think he’s just accurately describing the situation. Hamas is a political entity, not a people
To each their own. To him Palestine is not a people, to you hamas is not a people, but it will definitely be people that are killed in the service of that view. You can try to sit on technicality but read some of the endless posts this dude writes and he sees no separation. Words carry weight and used in the context that it was I find it extremely hard to think a rational person would phrase things that way without the intended connotation.
It’s not a matter of opinion that Hamas is not a people. They are a political organization.
Your interpretation is not rational so your expectations of a rational person are meaningless.
To be fair the Arab nations surrounding Israel has been calling for Jewish ethnic cleansing of the holy lands for the past 60 years.
Crimes against humanity do not stop being crimes against humanity just because someone else is also bad.
Give the Southern Levant back to the Canaanites!
You find me one, and we’ll talk. The Jewish people’s indiginousy is recorded right there in our DNA for anyone to see. But the Edge lords, Jew baiters, Nazis, Islamofascists, and Anarchists, don’t want to have the real conversation about Arab colonialism, and land rights. Doesn’t matter to us, at all, we’re home now, and we aren’t going anywhere without a fight to the last.
Wait, so the record is right there in their blood right? And it proves the land/ground/soil is theirs right? The blood is their right to the soil… Blood and soil? Where have I heard that one before?
The land isn’t yours, it belongs to the Canaanites. What’s with this Israeli colonialism on Canaanite land?
Biblical history isn’t that great; the Torah was first written during the Babylonian captivity, and is generally agreed to have been composed from 600-300 BCE based off earlier oral traditions. Moses is generally placed ~1300 BCE - hundreds and hundreds of years before the first written Torah.
Archeologically, there’s basically no evidence that supports the Exodus. Like any oral tradition passed down for the better part of a millennium, things got mythologized and expanded on.
Based off both archeology and genetics, Israelites, Phoenicians, Moabites, etc. are considered Canaanites. It’s more of a broad linguistic and ethnic category than a specific kingdom.
Without a fight to the last American, that is! You’re welcome for all our tax dollars, investments, and military power you’ve been using, by the way.
The Bible and all of history disagrees, but u do u.
please stop.
No one ever returns land that’s been taken, winners rewards
It was stolen from them first, that shouldn’t be in the argument
Just be anti-violence
Wut.
Are you confused about Jews being forced to flee/convert to Islam hundreds of years ago or by someone wanting non-violent conflict resolution?
I’m confused why you’ve injected your “persecuted first” logic into a dispute over basic human rights.
Now I’m confused, I’m advocating for a humane response and saying that the 2nd panel doesn’t help
Without addressing those issues no humane response will be had either way. Although trying to address them doesn’t seem to help either. But the “both sides need to stop fighting” line doesn’t work for me. One has to take into consideration the power imbalances and systemic segregation involved. Under some circumstances I don’t think it is at all immoral to act in violence- I do think it becomes a self perpetuating firestorm that takes on a life all of its own, but that doesn’t mean that the adversaries are by necessity equally culpable for causing it, or that they struggle on equal moral footing.
Weird how ‘humane response’ is exclusive of acknowledging the inhumane actions of one of the parties involved.
Which party is that?
Well it’s right there in that second panel… Did you forget what you were complaining about already?
