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Nobody hates Palestinians more than other Arabs. This was never about them, it was always about hate for Israel.
I dunno, maybe the people genociding them hate them more.
No, arabs bad.
Made me laugh. Thanks
Usually, yeah.
Stop spreading misinformation.
Recall that it was the US who had to twist Egypt’s arm into accepting refugees. Black September was a thing, and it resulted in several Arab countries refusing to take Palestinian refugees.
It’s important that we discuss this. Hamas and other extremist groups take advantage of the kindness that is offered to Palestinians, and they cause civil wars and assassinations. If I remember right, they murdered the king of Jordan.
The Muslim extremists are a problem for everyone, and they make life much harder for Palestinians.
Handy for Israel to get to exterminate them within their own borders and everyone else is to blame because they won’t take them as refugees. Both those things are bad, but one is at least a bit worse.
Oh don’t get me wrong, the blame is backwards. It lies primarily with Israel for killing them. It’s fucked up, albeit less so, for these other countries to refuse to take in the refugees.
Handy for Israel to get to exterminate them within their own borders and everyone else is to blame because they won’t take them as refugees.
I don’t think they said or even implied that
Does that mean they hate Palestinians, or just refugees in general?
It seems like the cultures of, checks notes, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar are not built around helping those less-fortunate.
Charity is one of the main pillars of Islam. Saudi Arabia even has (had?) what was basically a Universal Basic Income for its citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_Account_Program_(Saudi_Arabia)
I’m not agreeing with any overarching point, I’m just not sure they’re as bad as you think with regards to helping their own countrymen. Though maybe that generosity begins and ends with its citizens.
What percentage of people living in Saudi Arabia are allowed to be citizens?
~55% I think.
The rest might as well be dirt.
K
Mass slavery doesn’t sound very charitable.
No idea about the other two but I’m pretty sure this doesn’t apply to Egypt.
It’s important that we discuss this. Hamas and other extremist groups take advantage of the kindness that is offered to Palestinians, and they cause civil wars and assassinations. If I remember right, they murdered the king of Jordan.
Yeah I won’t deny that these things are all pretty messed up, but the claim that Arabs hate Palestinians is just wrong, at least from what I’ve seen as an Egyptian. Also I don’t see how Hamas, which was founded in the mid-80s in a completely different political climate, has anything to do with this. The PLO, which isn’t even Islamist, is the one who did these things.
Generalities are rarely true, I should’ve specified. I agree that the statement “Arabs hate Palestinians” is more wrong than it is right. And there are certainly differences between the PLO and Hamas and other militant groups.
It would be more correct to say that violent militants are using the Palestinians’ plight to take advantage of the kindness of Arab neighbors and then try to take over their societies. And naturally, that has made neighboring countries reticent to take in refugees.
What is wrong however is seeing a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians as legitimate resistance when they themselves will not take in Palestinian refugees.
What is wrong however is seeing a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians as legitimate resistance when they themselves will not take in Palestinian refugees.
Unfortunately many Arab people do consider all Jewish Israeli civilians as active participants in Israel’s crimes, but that’s a whole different story. The serious argument that October 7th was legitimate resistance relies on the fact that it was against military targets, with no evidence the leadership ordered anything close to slaughter of civilians. Add in that even after the IDF shelled and shot their own citizens the civilian casualty rate was 66% and the idea that Hamas just passed the border and randomly murdered civilians falls apart pretty quickly. Of course not denying the atrocities that actually happened, but October 7th as a whole was legitimate resistance with an army that’s prone to committing war crimes, not a terror attack with the goal of murdering civilians. This distinction is important because “atrocities were committed on October 7th” and “October 7th was a terror attack” aren’t equivalent statements.
I might not be up to date on the latest understanding of the days events. Do you know a good source where I could go read up on it?
There’s no one source that’ll cover everything, but since most of us have a general idea of what Hamas did (and that’s mostly what you’ll get if you look up October 7th) here’s a few examples/evidence of the IDF killing their citizens on October 7th.
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/759856/Israel-s-IDF-ordered-to-prevent-Hamas-from-returning-to-Gaza
(contains the Hebrew article and a translation in the comments).
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It’s unfortunate that we can’t just lock up all the extremists into one room and let them solve the problem for us.
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Bingo
What a clown!
We see through your tribal bullshit. Y’all hate each other more than my aunts, but you hate Jews more. When people like you say Israelis need to leave the middle east, we know which Israelis you mean. Certainly not the Arabs living in Israel.
What I find depressing is that most of the Arab world thinks so, but the majority of people from Gaza don’t.
Arab world: https://i.imgflip.com/41f829.jpg
It clearly shows that Arabs don’t care about fellow Palestinians suffering, and the only thing that matters is that they fucked up lives of some Jews.
Arabs aren’t one people. They’re many different tribes. They’ve been fighting as long as the historical record. So them not caring about the Palestinians is not surprising but obvious.
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the majority of people from Gaza don’t.
Last poll I saw shows the majority of Gazans approve of Oct 7:
57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514Has public opinion in Gaza shifted since then?
All arabs remember Jordan September 1970 so nobody trusts the Palestinians one bit and rather prefer they die against the Israeli than their own citizens. They got expelled to Lebanon after Jordan and sparked civil war there for decades and then finally getting expelled in 1991.
So if you wonder why the neighbouring Arab countries don’t care. There’s your answer.
Yeah I’m curious how much help all these Arab countries were sending to the Palestinians.
I thought Arab countries were the only ones sending aid to Palestinians - ignoring the US which of course is playing both sides
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The blood feud just makes me feel… tired. And sad for the whole region.
I’m really exhausted from all the crises happening across the planet on a daily basis. Its become as average as Tuesday. It’s desensitizing.
I would love to duck my head in the sand, but that won’t make things any better.
There should be like an Underground Railroad for those who want to leave.
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A new opinion poll, carried out by the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies, was published on January 10
It’s a Qatari institution with clear bias. Just because it has “Arab” in the name doesn’t mean it represents all arabs. There are many institutions in the middle east with “arab” in the title, they don’t represent us all.
Just a reminder that Aljazeera is a Qatari state owned channels, and Qatar represented Palestine in the opening for Asia’s cup just yesterday.
But yea… good journalism.
The 8000 respondents, from 16 different countries,
8000 respondents, given that they’re a fair sample size from each arab-majority country (which I doubt) do not represent what 464 million arabs think.
That’s 0.0001724138% of the population.
your comment shows us you don’t know how polls are made
why not look it up first and only then comment (if relevant)
Polls…how do they work?
Maybe include that it is a poll of “~5700 arabs by Qatari institutions” in the title, not “67% of arabs”.
Misleading title. Sorry to see individuals like you on Lemmy rather than Reddit.
You definitely haven’t taken stats.
Just like the polls done by those who “know stats” who predicted a clinton win in 2016.
Whilst it’s quite amazing just how few people you need in your sample to get a +/- 3% error with a 95% confidence for the opinion of hundreds of millions, that narrow error margin with just a few thousand samples only works if the sample is representative of the population in general, which is unclear.
Plenty of cases of polls out there that are complete total bollocks because they were taken by calling by phone people in relativelly poor countries were only those in the middle class and above have a phone, and at times when most people were out working, so they ended up sampling an atypical subset of people rather than one representative of the whole society.
The way the question is posed also influences the results, sometimes quite subtly (the mere order or words or order of questions in multiple-question poll can sway the results).
So whilst what you said makes sense in response to the previous commenter’s point, there’s a lot more to good polling than merelly the number of samples necessary for a certain error margin in the 95% confidence interval when your sampling is random in a uniform distribution (emphasys on the later, as actually making sure the sampling is indeed like that in practice is often difficult and/or costly)
How is the really of an opinion poll painting them as a monolith? It’s literally saying they have different opinions.
In that case, I’m sure you’d have an issue with a publication writing “99% of Europeans think Hitler was bad”, despite it being a bunch of different nations.
Or, is it “eh white is white” for you?
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This doesn’t seem any different from polling Western countries and writing a title about what the Western world thinks. Doesn’t make me think of a monolith.
Considering how the Arab world at large never agreed with the terms of Israel’s conquest, this makes sense.
In the 40s and 50s they all agreed on kicking those same Jews out of their counties, though.
And attacking Israel at the same time but still all losing so bad that Israel actually gained land.
It does seem like some anime shit
Pretty sure jews around the world never agree with the war that was brought to them the moment country was formed.
On Palestine. Their country was formed through massacres and ethnic cleansing.
So was the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
They’re not going anywhere, and the people who call for the abolition of those countries are nutcases and will always be accurately understood as nutcases.
Pakistan and India were formed just like Israel was: according to international law and by partition.
If the Palestinians want a state, they can have one: alongside Israel. Those are the terms. And until they accept that, they will suffer. Sucks for them.
Pakistan and India wasn’t the same. it was single nation split in two. the people in it is native. Israel is nonexistent before 1948 and the people were brought from outside. as south African kick out theirs oppressors, Palestinian will do the same. israel is no different than nazi, instead israel are worst.
the people in it is native.
Some were, some weren’t. Depends how far back you want to go, which wave of mass migration you’re talking about.
Israel is nonexistent before 1948 and the people were brought from outside
Except, of course, that none of this is correct.
First, there’s the ancient Kingdom of Judah. The Jews are the same people.
Second, Jews maintained a continuous presence in the land of Israel-Palestine ever since then. They are, therefore, indigenous to the land.
Third, the majority of Jewish Israelis are Mizrahis – Jews from Arab lands who’ve lived there since the Second Temple Period (516 BC - 70 AD), who were forced to flee from these neighbouring Muslim states due to violence, pogroms, repression and the theft of their property.
We know from numerous scientific studies of Jewish and Palestinian DNA that they’re almost identical, and share a common root, most likely both being descendents of the ancient Canaanites. Here’s a very recent one. There’s almost no genetic difference with ‘European’ Ashkenazi Jews either, because they very rarely intermarried with other faith/ethnic groups. Here’s another from 2015 in Haaretz.
Palestinians and Jews are basically cousins, genetically speaking, and both are indigenous to the land. Palestinians perceive it as an invasion, and that’s understandable despite not being true. To the Jews, they were returning from exile to their homeland only to find that there were squatters who’d let the place fall to ruin while they were gone, which is also understandable though not true.
They’ll find a way to live together one day, but it’ll require both sides to accept the rights of the other.
Judaism is a religion and FYI all Middle Eastern people cluster close genetically. In fact South Arabians cluster closer to ancient Levantines than Zionist settlers. Should you instead give the land to them?
We already know Ashkenazi are European https://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html
And are highly susceptible to skin cancer unlike the Palestinians.
Remarkably, although Israeli Arabs, especially men, tend to work more outdoors, melanoma in this sector is rare compared to that of Jewish Israelis.
https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/article-706842
As for Mizrahis they are from wherever they came from. Yemeni Jews aren’t Palestinians anymore than Yemeni Muslims are Palestinian. Not at all.
If Jews had a continuous presence then why did Zionist leaders refer to themselves and their project as colonialism? https://en.jabotinsky.org/media/9747/the-iron-wall.pdf
You should read the Iron Wall Essay. In it Jabotinsky clearly states that Zionism is colonialism and accurately predicts that the Palestinians will resist since “all natives resist colonialists”.
If Jews had a continuous presence how did they come by the hundreds of thousands on ships? There were Palestinian Jews who are indigenous but Judaism is a religion, Jews from France or Morocco are not indigenous.
If you want to argue that people that haven’t been in Palestine before Zionism are indigenous then you still need to explain how that gives them the right to expel people already there from their lands.
I have been arguing with Zionists for years, and other than myths and lies to justify their colonialism of Palestine, the only solid argument they ever gave is “might makes right”. I can see Zionists believe in it, Jabotinsky and the Likud clearly do. At which I say it took 132 years to liberate Algeria, it took 7 centuries to liberate Ireland. No one is mighty forever.
it took 7 centuries to liberate Ireland. No one is mighty forever.
When do you think Canada will be liberated and the indigenous return to power?
What? So we’re supposed to live by the same standards we had before globalization?
So, as a human society we have not evolved to recognize that what happened in the US was wrong and that it happening again is not acceptable?
Hm.
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Most of them.
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We are specifically talking about settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing. Something most countries in the world haven’t been founded on. Take Egypt or Libya for example.
The Israelis themselves know it but deny it. I am confident that one day sooner or later, Palestine will be liberated like Ireland, Algeria and South Africa before it.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
Why on earth do we accept J Post articles here? It’s literally Israeli propaganda.
I’ll remember that next time I see an al Jazeera post
Im not sure I mentioned al Jazeera at all. Random that you brought it up
Their point is that those claims are made in both directions.
I suspect their point was baseless whataboutism pointed at something I never said or implied to try and (in their minds) undermine my point.
If you want to ban one news outlet that you are imagining is state propaganda, why not ban the other state propaganda with a clear biased agenda?
Where did I say I did or did not want to ban Al Jazerra?
I didnt mention it at all.
Thats why its so bad faith.
You’re right, you’re certainly arguing in bad faith. It’s okay, the rest of us understand where you stand, and why your propaganda isn’t any better than the Qatari ran lies.
Not really. Israeli outlets literally just make up lies and repeat known false propaganda. Aljazeera is just one sided reporting
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arab-center-research-policy-studies-174700630.html
Happy? Or do you have a narrative to spin about this one, too?
How the fuck did you even interview them? The governments of many Arab countries in this survey would kidnap and jail you indefinitely without trail if you support Palestine in public or on social media, and many other cave in to what they are expected to say. It’s garbage in garbage out
According to Israel bombing hospitals and refugee camps is legitimate defense. They clearly deserve each other.
Imagine thinking millions of people “deserve” to be used as pawns and cannon fodder by their own governments as well as the international “community”… 🤢
It’s pretty well established that Hamas used those places, making them valid military targets. If you want to be pissed at anyone over them being hit, be pissed at Hamas.
No. No it’s not. At all. Israel went back on the hospital tunnel claims because they couldn’t fabricate enough “evidence”. Many, many other strikes are exactly the same. They bomb and kill dozens on the hunch there is one militant. That’s a war crime no matter what side you are on, unless you are on the side of genocide and death.
Citation? My understanding is that when there was skepticism regarding whether the tunnels connected to the hospital, the IDF released 360° video footage of them walking around in it to address it. I’ve seen stashes of weapons thrown behind MRI machines, there’s been accounts from patients that Hamas members were in the hospital, there’s footage of Hamas taking hostages into the hospitals, RPGs being fired from in front of them and then the soldiers run into the hospitals, and I’m pretty sure they have a confession from hospital management. I believe there’s even more evidence, but that’s all that I’m remembering at the moment.
That’s really not true based on the publicly available information I’ve seen.
You haven’t seen enough, then.They fully and openly admit there wasn’t weapons or a tunnel used by hamas there now.
Yeah sorry we killed you in hospital bro but we think some like, really bad guys were there. So really if you think about it, it’s all their fault.
Yeah sorry we blew up the school bro but we we think some like, really bad guys were there. So really if you think about it, it’s all their fault.
Yeah sorry we blew up the refugee camp bro but…
On and on and on for like 100 days now as the majority of Gaza has been flattened and 22k+ people have died, mostly innocents. Nobody believes you. This. Shit. Doesn’t. Work. Try arguing something else for God’s sake.
The border towns had armed security and IDF soldiers lived within them. Does that make them legitimate targets as well?
You’re conflating security guards with IDF forces inappropriately. You might have a point given that the IDF is a citizen army, however, many of the people slaughtered that day were not even Israeli. Hamas never bothered to check who was and was not a soldier. They just fired blindly at civilian vehicles driving by, raped and massacred an EDM festival.
The IDF uses military bases instead for that sort of thing. These were civilians, many of whom championed pro-Palestinian causes.
If you haven’t seen it, I encourage you to watch October 7th footage, the IDF has it uncensored on their YouTube channel, after watching it my sympathy for Palestine evaporated.
Same. And Hamas put those tunnels under public infrastructure on purpose and with the public’s knowledge.
I get it: how else were they supposed to fight back against illegal occupation?
Well, they definitely should not have done a bunch of mass shootings of civilians at concerts and stuff. This thread baffles me. What did they think the response would be?
Now the whole place is condemned because of the tunnels, which Israel has every right to destroy now, since they represent the means of Hamas’ offensive capabilities.
What did they think the response would be?
A permanent state of war. Bafflingly, this is what they wanted, this is what they predicted, and this is what the Palestinian public overwhelmingly supports. Except the neighboring Arab states aren’t going to war for them like they wanted, it seems they learned their historical lessons that Palestine hasn’t.
They provoked a predictable response and then scream in the media that Israel isn’t playing fair, yet again. Evidently they want a situation where they can launch bloody hordes of civilian murdering and raping soldiers and Israel’s hands are bound preventing them from responding meaningfully. They want permanent war, but only one they can fight, only war that favors them, and they’re going to keep trying no matter how many times they lose.
I have no idea about the hospitals and refugee camps. I just know 20,000 Palestinians have died, mostly women and children, and including dozens of journalists and aid workers.
If Israel wants to avoid civilian casualties, they should pass the message along to the Israeli army.
Here’s a guy that doesn’t want murderers to face consequences for their actions.
To me, the crazy thing is that 33% of the Arab world doesn’t think it was legitimate resistance.
The October 7th attack was clearly terrorism. But to have such a big percentage of the Arab world seem to agree with that, even in such an insanely one-sided situation as the ongoing occupation of Gaza, means:
A lot of people want peace.
Everyone wants peace for themselves and their allies. What’s important is how many people want peace for the other guy too.
Palestinians want to live peace with each other. Israelis are the ones that want to go full Nazi and exterminate all Palestinians because they believe they are the Ubermensch.
The west bank being terrorized by ZioNazis is all the proof one needs.
You shouldn’t take the actions of genocidal, colonizing settlers and generalize them to all Israelis. It’s completely incorrect to suggest that all Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians. As small as they are, there are left wing groups that want to find reconciliation and cooperation. And plenty of youth have refused their compulsory service with the IDF.
It also makes no sense for the Israelis to think they’re superior to the Palestinians – only half of Israelis trace their ancestry from European Jews. The other half have the same ancestry as the Palestinians. They’re all semites.
You’re far too eager to condemn people by association, who may very well have the same beliefs as you. These are the same logical fallacies that lead to ubermensch beliefs in the first place.
As small as they are, there are left wing groups that want to find reconciliation and cooperation. And plenty of youth have refused their compulsory service with the IDF.
I highly respect people such as Gideon Levy and other speaking out against the atrocities and refusing military service. If all israelis were like that then this conflict would already be over. But most israelis are currently voting right wing governments in power. Most israelis even support the current genocide.
There were even people killed by Hamas that were peace activists. Which is incredibly sad. But the fact remains that all those good people are completely outnumbered and despite their peaceful activism israel has moved more and more towards full on Nazism the last few year.
It also makes no sense for the Israelis to think they’re superior to the Palestinians – only half of Israelis trace their ancestry from European Jews. The other half have the same ancestry as the Palestinians. They’re all semites.
They believe Palestinians are Arabs not Semites.
I’m not disputing any of that. I’m just saying we shouldn’t tar Levy and the others with the same brush. And like you said, the people being killed by Hamas are not just the genocide supporters.
Think about how this conflict is going to end. When we look at the most likely outcomes:
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Status quo continues, and just kicks the can back down the road until one of the other outcomes
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Israeli completely genocides Palestinians and colonizes Gaza and West Bank on their bodies. Some survive as refugees, but most of them die. Hamas is mostly destroyed, but its rich leaders in the UAE and similar countries drink champagne and live it up just fine.
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Enough Israelis vote for a left wing regime that seeks reconciliation, and recognizes they have to move past the history of violence for it to end.
Odds are, Israel is not going to be destroyed or ended. The best chance of peace relies on the Israelis who understand the power dynamic places the impetus on them to stop the violence. To that end, it’s unhelpful to blanket label all Israelis as genocide supporters. Because if that’s true, Palestine has no hope.
How were the Nazi’s stopped? Did we kill every single German in existence?
Are the Ukranians trying to slaughter every single Russian to stop the invasion?
israel will never end its genocide voluntarily. If an israeli isn’t supporting Zionism and speak out they are getting arrested. There’s no way to get any political change going in a regime this dictatorial.
Palestinians are very open to negotiation, but israel is the party holding all the power, and refuses to give the Palestinians a land. The 700.000 in the west bank prove how willing israel is to seek peace.
There is only one side preventing peace, and it’s israel. Their illegal government must be disbanded, but it doesn’t look like they are going to do it voluntarily.
Do you believe it is realistic to achieve a situation like Nazi Germany, where several countries take control of the government and administer the area for a few decades? Without any subjugation, and with economic aid from the administering countries?
If you have a way to do that, I am genuinely interested in hearing it. As long as it seems unviable however, regime change is the best option. Netanyahu’s government failed to protect people from Hamas attack, kidnappings, and their own army killed Israelis. If there was ever a time to foment a change, it’s now.
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Most Israelis agree with their governments crimes. Most Israelis are racist and supremacists. I recommend you listen to Gideon Levy here https://youtu.be/3EtNFXL_ykg
Even if so though, this just perpetuates the problem. This is why the conflict won’t stop.
Most of Group A thinks that most of Group B are supremacists, and condones the killing of B. The members of B who aren’t supremacists and are killed anyway by association see all of Group A as supremacists who want them dead, so they condone the killing of A, even those that disagree and don’t think that all of B are supremacists.
This isn’t going to stop until people see each other as individuals. They’ll create justifications to kill each other until one of them ceases to exist. It falls on Israel to seek reconciliation, or this violence is just going to keep going.
There were multiple peace offers by the Arabs, such as the Arab Peace Initiative 22 years ago. Israel has always rejected a two-state solution.
Do you think the Irish should have given up on fighting for freedom?
Just to be clear, we both agree that Israel is the one causing the problem here, and the one that holds all the cards.
And unless I’m mistaken, that peace initiative did have a prominent Israeli figure there supporting a two state solution, right? I thought this was when Netanyahu boosted Hamas initially to kill the two state talks and literally kill that Israeli negotiator.
My point is that we need Israelis like them. There can be no peaceful resolution unless Israelis want peace – or, at least, want the fighting to stop. That’s what happened with the Irish, isn’t it? They didn’t physically defeat the UK army.
Do you see what I’m saying? Even if most Israelis are supremacists, our enemy is not all Israelis. If we blindly kill people based on their countrymen the only solution left is total annihilation.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/3EtNFXL_ykg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Well, but what I’m saying is that (edit:
calling it terrorism) saying it wasn’t legitimate is kind of wanting peace for the other guy too.I’d be surprised if 33% of Americans or Israelis thought that the invasion of Gaza was illegitimate. Maybe they would though, I honestly don’t know.
It’s all terrorism, all the way down. Israel throws a volley, then Hamas throws a volley, and so on. It’s depressing.
I think it is interesting how many people think there will ever be peace while Hamas is in charge, or that Hamas will ever let someone else be in charge.
Nobody in power ever “lets” someone else have it instead.
On the first part, I agree; both Likud and Hamas are hell-bent on this outcome. If only the one of them would stop giving the other money to keep them both going.
Nobody in power ever “lets” someone else have it instead.
Peaceful transition of power is a cornerstone of democracies
I actually hesitated to write what I wrote for that exact reason… but I decided that there’s enough implied threat of everyone else just removing you anyway and you looking stupid and maybe going to prison that you can’t actually call it “voluntary.” Trump tried his absolute very best to simply refuse to go along with the peaceful transition of power and he still got power-transitioned out.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you; I do think a lot of the theater of concession speeches and other trappings that go with peaceful transitions in countries far from Palestine is super important. But I think Trump actually did a pretty good job (so far, fingers crossed) at illustrating that it’s not really voluntary for the departing president to agree to leave.
Yes tell us what we want. تهريج 🤡
I’m surprised it is this low.
Edit: the comments are hell. But what else to except from propagandized westerners that never cared to know from Arabs.
I wish our leaders had a sense of shame or honour, instead many of them are collaborators.
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
Not to be pedantic but I’d to clarify one aspect that not many people know.
He was right, except for one. At least from the perspective of those Muslim Arab leaders:
Our God is not theirs.
Islam is an Abrahamic religion, regarded by the Muslim as a continuation of the Abrahamic religions before it. So the muslim regard themselves as having the same god as the Jews and the Christians. Thus, the prophets of the Jewish religion (and even the prophets of the Christianity, Jesus) are also regarded as prophets in Islam. Many of them are mentioned in Quran in good faith. The main difference is the jewish doesn’t recognize Muhammad as their prophet while the Muslim regards Muhammad as the last prophet in addition to those before him.
You know polls are utterly unscientific tea-leaf reading right?
57% sounds empirical and they even have cool little charts to go with it. Best case scenario it was: you got someone who doesn’t want to talk to you to talk to you for five minutes, or you set the stage for a talkative bastard to talkative bastard at you until you can break free. Neither are particularly good windows into their actual thoughts about Thing X but furthermore all the responses usually total like 0.000028% of the population.
You know polls are utterly unscientific tea-leaf reading right?
Lmao
Maths is unscientific now
E: To any downvoters: you are stupid.
Polling is just maths, and is very reliable so long as it’s done reasonably.
By all means have reservations of this poll specifically, but to call polls in general or as a concept “unscientific tea leaf reading” is foolish. Disagreeing with that mathematical fact is exactly the same as disagreeing that 5 + 5 = 10.
Calling social studies math is an insult to math.
Polling is mathematical…
Faked polls are forces of nature now?
When did I mention faked polls? You’re just making up shit now.
You’re either a troll or stupid if you don’t think polling is mathematics.
Russia polled in villages that they captured that Ukrainians actually want to be annexed by Russia. Can’t argue with math right?
Good strawman. I never said that polls can’t have a selection bias.
I said thinking polls in general or polls as a concept are tea leaf reading is stupid. Because it is. If you believe that, you’re a moron. You may as well say you disagree with the concept that 5 + 5 is 10.
Cool, Israel’s current campaign is legitimate resistance to Hamas aggression as well.
No doubt about that. minus some bad details .
When you’re defending beheading children as “legitimate resistance” when you should probably take a step back and take a long hard look at yourself.
And no, before idiots come along and say dumb shit… That doesn’t mean I’m defending Israel’s actions either. It’s possible to dislike both situations.
There’s no evidence Hamas beheaded children. IIRC that was a rumor originating from the IDF which remains unsubstantiated.
If they had any proof of “Beheading children” they would have submitted to the International Court of Justice. but they didn’t, they haven’t even dared use that sentence. but here your are parroting your Zionist Hasbara Lies and defending a genocidal agenda that have been in the working for over a century
Oh look, the idiots saying dumb shit have turned up …
I know right, the rest of us would rather you guys go home.
This is Zionist propganda.
No beheaded children nor rapes happened.
Only some Thai migrant men that got mutilated after they were already shot dead.
Show me 40 decapitated babies and I will start believing the IDF
Ah yes, an israeli Zionist propaganda outlet posting Zionist propaganda from a known Zionist lemming. Must be very obective
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If intentionally raping and killing civilians is “legitimate resistance” I feel sorry for this world.
If you’re ignoring all the raping and killing by the IDF prior to 10/6, I’m sure this all seems inexplicable.
Because you’re literally choosing to ignore why it happens.
Like that old meme of someone putting a stick into the wheel of their own bike then asking why it happened to them after the crash.
Citation? My understanding is Israel has prosecuted the few incidents when their soldiers did such a thing, and it certainly is not policy or commonplace.
Took two seconds of Google…
First result is less than a week old
If you’re gonna say one isn’t enough, ,you should have asked for a specific amount to start with.
But maybe if you ask nice and still don’t know how to work a search engine I’ll find you another.
There are decades of news similar to this :-/
ctrl-f “rape” zero hits. So, not an example of IDF raping and killing. In fact this article is about settlers committing violence, which the police and IDF are now investigating. Did you bother to read it or just linked the first google hit blindly?
I said:
If you’re ignoring all the raping and killing by the IDF prior to 10/6, I’m sure this all seems inexplicable.
Because you’re literally choosing to ignore why it happens.
Like that old meme of someone putting a stick into the wheel of their own bike then asking why it happened to them after the crash.
You said:
Context?
So I just had to guess what you wanted
If you were specifically asking for context of rape by IDF, why didn’t you ask for that?
To me it feels like you were being intentionally vague so no matter what I provided context for, you could claim that’s not what you meant.
So maybe next time, if you want specific information, ask for it specifically?
Dude, you and rapidcreek were the ones who set the goalposts to, “raping and killing,” not me. I asked for an example of what you specifically referred to and implied happened regularly before 10/6. Instead you provided an example of killing by someone other than the IDF. You failed to satisfy your own claims. Now you’re blaming me because asking for proof of your own specific claims wasn’t specific enough!
Wild.
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Hamas and PIJ deliberately targeted civilians and committed atrocities. There is no part of those actions that can even remotely be colored as legitimate. It was attempted genocide as the intent was the destruction of all Israelis living near the border and sparking a war to end the existence of Israel.
I don’t think anyone is defending the actual killing of civilians. The idea is that the civilians who died (including by Israeli hands, by the way, can’t forget that), were incidental and had no basis in leadership orders. AFAIK the plan was go attack Israeli bases and soldiers, take hostages, return to the strip, but since Hamas isn’t exactly a properly trained modern army (I mean those also commit warcrimes and we don’t blame it on leadership unless provable) and Israel just shelled and shot their own citizens the numbers got this bad.
I mean it’s doing more damage to Israel than a century of peace could, so I don’t think “stupid” applies. Whether it was right to do it when the response would predictably be like this is another story, but due to October 7th support for Israel is now more controversial than ever before.
Their attacks on military bases were legitimate, but attacking civilian populations was not and should never be tolerated. Even if you want to say that the settlers are not civilians (at least it has some logic, unlike israel’s excuses), they killed indiscriminately, including tens of children.
I don’t think anyone is defending the actual killing of civilians. The idea is that the civilians who died (including by Israeli hands, by the way, can’t forget that), were incidental and had no basis in leadership orders. AFAIK the plan was go attack Israeli bases and soldiers, take hostages, return to the strip, but since Hamas isn’t exactly a properly trained modern army and Israel just shelled and shot their own citizens the numbers got this bad.
