Don’t get me started on ds9. A black captain? A trans lesbian officer? A gay interspecies couple? The federation using fear from war as an excuse to become a police state? Can’t believe they made my colorful space communism show woke.
I’ve seen DS9 multiple times, but I have no clue what you’re talking about on some of these. Please enlighten me.
A trans lesbian officer
Are you talking about Jadzia/Ezri-Dax? If so, neither are trans. The parasite, Dax, in them has no gender but can go to different hosts that have genders.
A gay interspecies couple
Are you talking about Odo and Kira? While Odo doesn’t have gender, I wouldn’t call it a gay interspecies couple. That’s kind of a stretch.
That is a popular fan interpretation of Jadzia. I can see some similarities, but I don’t think the Trill are even as much as an allegory for transsexuality. That interpretation is very reductive and dismissive of the transsexual experience.
A gay interspecies couple
Garak and Bashir were originally written with gay subtext. Producers put a stop to that before anything actually developed between the two characters.
I can’t be the only one who remembers Trekkies legitimately bitching about Tuvok because “Vulcans aren’t black.”
Like… really? You’ve been there and checked this out for yourself? Or is it that most (and not even all) of the handful of Vulcans you saw so far were white?
I hadn’t heard that, but it doesn’t surprise me. I remember people not too long ago whining about a black Ariel in the live action Disney Little Mermaid movie.
Because real live mermaids that actually exist are white. Everyone knows that.
Tuvok is the best depiction of a Vulcan in all of Star Trek too and I will die on this hill (Spock is half human, so I am not counting him). Tuvok seemed to me like he found humans (and Neelix) to be illogical, difficult to understand, and somewhat annoying; but nonetheless he couldn’t help but like them as well, though he wouldn’t admit that to them (tangential hot take: Vulcans claim to suppress their emotions, but they still make decisions based on emotion and rationalise them as being based on logic after the fact)
Overall I like Tuvok as a character. My problem with Tuvok is they write him as if Vulcans have no emotion. He even says that.
Vulcans are supposed to have such strong emotions they need to constantly keep them under control and use logic to make decisions because the emotions cause them to make bad decisions.
I think that’s a lot more interesting for a character. Nemoy said he played Spock as a guy who was constantly in wonder at things and keeping it under control.
Does Tuvok actually say Vulcans have no emotion? I recall no such thing. I recall them suppressing emotions and not displaying them, but the lore was always that they were a really violent society up until they invented meditation, basically. Right?
Anyway, no matter why or what for we know they technically have no emotions in a practical sense, but Tuvok still displays understanding of the importance of emotions a lot of the time.
Like “logically” (the “logic” in the show is usually slightly reductive) dancing for someone doesn’t change anything. But… we know that it does. So it is logical to do that even if you don’t feel the emotions to do it. Although Tuvok does, he just suppresses them, like a good Vulcan.
One thing I think that determines if something is good or bad sci-fi is if the components of the show can be used to look at us humans to improve ourselves. An alien race that doesn’t have emotions doesn’t give us a vessel to use to discuss issues humans have and how we can improve. A race with very strong emotions who have recognized making decisions with emotions as a basis, rather than logic, is dangerous is useful as a tool to teach lessons.
This is what makes Star Trek good sci-fi and Star Wars bad sci-fi. There are very few lessons to learn from Wars, if any. Almost all of Trek is in service to this (at least in the good shows). It’s also why the books of Dune are good, but the 1984 version sucks. The miniseries I think are underrated and more people should give it a try. (It’s very campy. Just a warning. If you can watch old Trek you’ll be fine though.) I’m yet to make up my mind of the new Dune. It’s entertaining, and seems to maintain most of the message from the books, but we’re yet to see.
With few exceptions, they’re also supposed to also have mastered their emotions very handily. Partly fue to exceptional biology. Not absolutely constantly be on the verge of breaking into tears or a rage, a la Enterprise.
He wasn’t though. That’s a bit of a cultural myth like “Beam me up Scotty.” Watch the show and you will see he clearly has emotion he just doesn’t let them control him.
His joy when he learns he didn’t kill Kirk. His enjoying verbal sparring with Mccoy. The spores removing his control. The look on his face when something strange and new is on the view screen.
You know what really grinds my gears about Vulcans? According to Trek lore their blood is green because they evolved using copper atoms to bind oxygen in the blood. But if that were the case they should have hemocyanin, and their blood should be blue.
I know for a certainty, however, that any inhabitable worlds we might find in the future will definitely look like a sound stage populated with Styrofoam boulders
Anyway, hardcore fans are dumb. I should know, I was one
Not dumb, but it makes it impossible to love Star Trek for what it is. A goofy show that takes itself seriously about space socialism. And it’s incredible at that.
Don’t get me started on ds9. A black captain? A trans lesbian officer? A gay interspecies couple? The federation using fear from war as an excuse to become a police state? Can’t believe they made my colorful space communism show woke.
I’ve seen DS9 multiple times, but I have no clue what you’re talking about on some of these. Please enlighten me.
Are you talking about Jadzia/Ezri-Dax? If so, neither are trans. The parasite, Dax, in them has no gender but can go to different hosts that have genders.
Are you talking about Odo and Kira? While Odo doesn’t have gender, I wouldn’t call it a gay interspecies couple. That’s kind of a stretch.
Edited for format
That is a popular fan interpretation of Jadzia. I can see some similarities, but I don’t think the Trill are even as much as an allegory for transsexuality. That interpretation is very reductive and dismissive of the transsexual experience.
Garak and Bashir were originally written with gay subtext. Producers put a stop to that before anything actually developed between the two characters.
Thanks
I can’t be the only one who remembers Trekkies legitimately bitching about Tuvok because “Vulcans aren’t black.”
Like… really? You’ve been there and checked this out for yourself? Or is it that most (and not even all) of the handful of Vulcans you saw so far were white?
The same people now whine about there being black dwarves in rings of power
You’re presuming a lot here. Like that anyone watched Rings of Power.
I hadn’t heard that, but it doesn’t surprise me. I remember people not too long ago whining about a black Ariel in the live action Disney Little Mermaid movie.
Because real live mermaids that actually exist are white. Everyone knows that.
And thier skin is all wrinkly from being in the water for so long.
Tuvok is the best depiction of a Vulcan in all of Star Trek too and I will die on this hill (Spock is half human, so I am not counting him). Tuvok seemed to me like he found humans (and Neelix) to be illogical, difficult to understand, and somewhat annoying; but nonetheless he couldn’t help but like them as well, though he wouldn’t admit that to them (tangential hot take: Vulcans claim to suppress their emotions, but they still make decisions based on emotion and rationalise them as being based on logic after the fact)
Overall I like Tuvok as a character. My problem with Tuvok is they write him as if Vulcans have no emotion. He even says that.
Vulcans are supposed to have such strong emotions they need to constantly keep them under control and use logic to make decisions because the emotions cause them to make bad decisions.
I think that’s a lot more interesting for a character. Nemoy said he played Spock as a guy who was constantly in wonder at things and keeping it under control.
Vulcans lie constantly to themselves and others.
Does Tuvok actually say Vulcans have no emotion? I recall no such thing. I recall them suppressing emotions and not displaying them, but the lore was always that they were a really violent society up until they invented meditation, basically. Right?
Anyway, no matter why or what for we know they technically have no emotions in a practical sense, but Tuvok still displays understanding of the importance of emotions a lot of the time.
Like in this clip
Like “logically” (the “logic” in the show is usually slightly reductive) dancing for someone doesn’t change anything. But… we know that it does. So it is logical to do that even if you don’t feel the emotions to do it. Although Tuvok does, he just suppresses them, like a good Vulcan.
One thing I think that determines if something is good or bad sci-fi is if the components of the show can be used to look at us humans to improve ourselves. An alien race that doesn’t have emotions doesn’t give us a vessel to use to discuss issues humans have and how we can improve. A race with very strong emotions who have recognized making decisions with emotions as a basis, rather than logic, is dangerous is useful as a tool to teach lessons.
This is what makes Star Trek good sci-fi and Star Wars bad sci-fi. There are very few lessons to learn from Wars, if any. Almost all of Trek is in service to this (at least in the good shows). It’s also why the books of Dune are good, but the 1984 version sucks. The miniseries I think are underrated and more people should give it a try. (It’s very campy. Just a warning. If you can watch old Trek you’ll be fine though.) I’m yet to make up my mind of the new Dune. It’s entertaining, and seems to maintain most of the message from the books, but we’re yet to see.
With few exceptions, they’re also supposed to also have mastered their emotions very handily. Partly fue to exceptional biology. Not absolutely constantly be on the verge of breaking into tears or a rage, a la Enterprise.
Sure. My problem with the writing is they write him like he doesn’t understand emotions having never had the them. When it should be the opposite.
He should be more like an alcoholic who doesn’t drink anymore. Still understands what it’s like to be drunk or hungover.
Spock was written the same way in TOS and he’s half-human.
He wasn’t though. That’s a bit of a cultural myth like “Beam me up Scotty.” Watch the show and you will see he clearly has emotion he just doesn’t let them control him.
His joy when he learns he didn’t kill Kirk. His enjoying verbal sparring with Mccoy. The spores removing his control. The look on his face when something strange and new is on the view screen.
No, I mean not understanding emotions.
You know what really grinds my gears about Vulcans? According to Trek lore their blood is green because they evolved using copper atoms to bind oxygen in the blood. But if that were the case they should have hemocyanin, and their blood should be blue.
I know for a certainty, however, that any inhabitable worlds we might find in the future will definitely look like a sound stage populated with Styrofoam boulders
Anyway, hardcore fans are dumb. I should know, I was one
Not dumb, but it makes it impossible to love Star Trek for what it is. A goofy show that takes itself seriously about space socialism. And it’s incredible at that.
Tuvok is black!?!?! I thought he was a Vulcan! I suppose the next thing you are going to tell me is that Odo isn’t a Shapeshifter?
Hold on, O’Brien and Bashir were the same species!
Their third wasn’t.
Bashir was just polygamist. And I guess O’Brien too if we count Keiko as anything more than a mate.
Rick Berman: