Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.
One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We’re only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.
I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I’m just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.” None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I’m paying my “support.” And I can’t complain about it on social media because I’m a man. I’m a stoic. Boys don’t cry, remember?
The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I’m not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren’t are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.
I mean, it’s also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it’s nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we’re expected to grit our teeth and “walk it off.”
I hope I’m not intruding on men’s spaces here as a transwoman,
But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender’s social dynamics. Men just don’t get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what’s the point of “equality” if we don’t lift everyone up to the same standards?
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women’s spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn’t fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.
Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I’m blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women’s spaces, seen as a woman.
As a women that, granted, had some serious questions about gender in my younger years this has always blown my mind because it’s so multi-faceted.
Women are more emotionally supportive, but it can quickly spiral into an almost gross-feeling and superficial reinforcement. Everything seems to be “valid” or demands an emotion-ridden hullabaloo, whereas the men in my life have always been more direct and straightforward, unafraid to call out my general jack-assery or quip “yeah, that sucks” when there’s not much else to be said about my general state of affairs.
The flip side of this is that women tend to be more sympathetic/vocal to general life events and encouraging to mild up or down days, whereas men tend to cock an eyebrow and ask what you’re so excited/upset about when you show up to work “having feelings” on a random Tuesday because your spouse threw a fit about leftover spaghetti that morning.
The dichotomy is fascinating to me, to watch unfold every day with every interaction. I find myself (not correctly or incorrectly) leaning towards men in times of crisis (muted response), and towards women in times of -life in general- (exacerbated response) because it gives me the mean/median output of (normal human response).
However, this doesn’t mean men only have “regular” mode or “crisis” mode, or that women only live in an amplified wave of “normal” and “slightly less normal”, and I think that’s where we find our faults. Our definition of the masculine and the feminine revolve around a dead sun that no longer serves us well. Men ARE emotionally supportive, and women ARE reserved/stoic, it’s just not always what you expect at the time so it gets glossed over and deleted, to the detriment of everyone.
Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
Spitting straight-up facts.
Our definition of the masculine and the feminine revolve around a dead sun
Damn that’s a raw line
Your perspective is absolutely welcome here! I’m transfemme myself
It’s not only a question of men. If you want a romantic relationship, you need to fit the society’s standards for the sex you are looking for. If women are looking for toxic virility, the sad truth is that men who embrace it will have an easier time finding a relationship.
This is not something you take from anyone. And this is the biggest problem many men have with the #metoo era: we acknowledge toxic masculinity is toxic and can even be deadly, but what is the alternative? There is none currently.
There is no model for modern men that is worthy of both modern men and women. This is why we have incels and other hardcore conservative going hard on hating women or even more toxic masculinity.
But I digress. The solution is not in a fight, it’s in acceptance from both men and women.
Thank you for sharing. I haven’t figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I’m a dad and wasn’t going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.
There’s a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don’t have enough support, so let’s give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It’s the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he’s part of the patriarchy, suppressing women’s voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.
I don’t see this as an intrusion. I see it as a relevant, valuable perspective. Thank you!
First, this is a long comment, and I don’t want to come off as dissing it. I agree with you. Except for that concluding thought.
I used to think that that was true, women vs. men for voting rights. But about ten years ago, I wandered into the Berkeley Historical Society. They had a bunch of materials on display about the women’s suffrage movement, including just boxes of documents. One of the first ones that I pulled out was a poster for an anti-suffrage meeting. A meeting organized by women.
In fact, they had lots of documentation about anti-suffrage efforts by the society women of Berkeley. That completely shocked me, given Berkeley’s crunchy reputation. But I did more research later, and found that it was not at all unusual.
Up until the early years of the 20th century, most women were against it! Even when the 15th Amendment passed, a large minority of women still opposed it. As well, quite a lot of men supported it. (Obviously, they had, to since they were the ones voting to pass it.)
Anyway, the framing of the issue as women demanding the vote from men is oversimplified.
Rather than intruding, transitioned individuals ought to be seen as the strongest allies - on both sides of the fence. The lived experience you being to the table is tremendously valuable because it is so indisputably valid.
but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn’t have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men.
Not really. Power has traditionally been held by couples, with men putting on the act and women pulling the strings behind the scenes. Our forefathers even created an entire institution known as marriage to establish these alliances formally. In fact, for a long, time women were more likely to be a part of the anti-suffragism movement than of the suffragism movement.
Even voting rights at the time were attached to land, not people. Before industrialization, it was impractical to own land without an entire family available to tend to it. A single man would never be able to cut the wood, grow the crops, care for the animals, and do all the household chores. There isn’t enough time in the day. As such, land ownership too was for couples – thus voting was for couples.
Industrialization was the turning point. It brought increasing opportunities to live a life alone, and those alone started growing more and more disgruntled about a world made for couples.
I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
I don’t. Such movements happen because of technical advancement. Industrialization, as mentioned, was a pivotal time not only for suffrage but a number of movements. The rise of automation, freeing even more hands from the kitchen, was also a significant period with respect to these topics. These things would have never happened without those new, at the time, technologies changing the way we live.
When the world changes, then people change. There is little evidence that people can change ahead of the world. After all, things happen for a reason. There was logic in giving power to couples at some point in history – until the world changed and it no longer made sense.
Similarly, men are guarded today for a reason. Until some technical advancement lifts that reason from hanging over their heads, it isn’t going anywhere. Going to war against an immovable object doesn’t yield well.
Nobody cares, because I’m just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.” None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I’m paying my “support.” And I can’t complain about it on social media because I’m a man. I’m a stoic. Boys don’t cry, remember?
That is the worst. So sorry you’re having to deal with that and not get support from the men in your life.
I’m sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that’s terrible for everyone.
Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn’t want to “take sides.”
I’m confused why you wouldn’t want him to see them. Isn’t in your best interest to have people who love you and think you’re a good dad in your kids’ lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?
Oh I’m fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn’t hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.
My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was “cut off.” So, despite the fact I’m sad that my mother can’t see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn’t right.
I will also mention my brother was “cut off” because of his close associations with me.
I am very low contract with my mother and sister because they kept my ex as a friend after all her bullshit through the divorce. I put on a show for my son to have sort of normal family times at holidays, etc. but I mostly do not connect with them outside of time with my son. We are NOT friends.
So, internet stranger. I understand the crazy bullshit that comes with divorce for a man.
And it is amazing how quickly and thoroughly men are discarded after a divorce. Disposable indeed.
Sorry to hear that you went through that.
In a perfect world I could have had an amicable divorce from my ex and everybody could have stayed in touch and been happy.
Instead I had a “Michael Bay” divorce where everything went really explosive and badly. It’s sad because I see a lot of example – such as our own prime minister – who have a great divorce where everybody is respectful and mature and life goes happily on.
I’ve tried to explain to my dad how screwed up it is that he maintains a relationship with my ex despite my zero contact with my kids but he doesn’t care. Actually, he went to my exes wedding with her new husband last month, which involved him flying to my city. He didn’t visit me, which is really the extra cherry on the shit sundae.
Yeah, divorce was similar for me. I was discussing and considering collaborative divorce with my lawyer until I was served the restraining order…which I got dismissed. That started about 2 years of legal theater propelled by stupid amounts of money.
You do find out just how selfish your family is when you go through a divorce, don’t you? And how little they really care about you.
At a certain point I went “Bush” on family/friends: If you’re not for me then you’re against me. I still think it brought me back to some sort of sanity in dealing with people. And taking the trash people out of my life.
You have 0% custody? Otherwise your mother could see your kids whenever you have them, right?
In “theory” or “legally” I have 50-50 custody. In practice, it’s nearly impossible to enforce visitation with older children. My kids were 15 and 9 when we split. Immediately, the courts said enforcement on the 15-year-old was impossible. I spent a few years battling enforcement on the 9-year-old but she soon also became unenforceable. At a certain point you can’t win if the kids also don’t want to see you or make your visit a nightmare by passively resisting.
I was in the middle of one of these court battles when my daughter became anorexic and told the medical staff she didn’t want me to visit her in hospital. She was about 13 and that was the last I saw her.
Legally, I am a 50-50 parent but in reality the only thing I’m entitled to do is pay their mother $1,000 a month.
Not OP, but yes, obviously. It’s still different than being in their kids’ lives and even if the grandfather is supportive, it’s no replacement for direct interaction. I also think there is the question of weather the grandparent will be supportive of OP or protective of the relationship with the grandkids when faced with a difficult decision with regard to who they need to win favor with.
A story all too common. Someone I know mine got divorced a number of years ago. He’s a fun, charming, kind, decent looking fellow in good shape for his age, and I can’t imagine he did anything to deserve what happened. I don’t know all the details of their divorce, but I know all but one of his children was poisoned against him by his (now ex) wife, and it’s only because the one happened to be away long term at the time.
His ex has several advanced degrees and is more than capable of earning six figures. And yet, he was still ordered to pay her spousal support and a sizable chunk of his pension. The divorce and family court system is absolutely fucked for men and it’s a small wonder so many of them contemplate drastic measures when their lives are ripped away from them.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men and then conveniently “forgot” to balance out all of the exclusive rights women get just for being women.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men
Feminism hasn’t done that yet, we’re nowhere near equal rights and opportunities for women and if you don’t believe me, look at the gender balance in US government roles and who has the money and power.
Let’s focus on dismantling patriarchy and the harm it creates for men as well.
Gender balance in government and business is not a proxy for equality.
Woman are not institutionally prevented from campaigning for office. If they’re not voted in, that’s just democracy.
Women are not institutionally prevented from climbing the corporate ladder. They largely prefer to have a more comfortable work/life balance.
But they are accepted into college 2:1 compared to men.
They do receive scholarships, educational, and career opportunities just for being women.
They do receive an egregiously unfair advantage in family and divorce courts.
Those are institutional.
When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
I literally pointed out several factors that are objectively institutionally unequal. Pithy quotes won’t change that.
Hey, you can argue with me all day, but the people taking men’s slice of the pie ain’t the feminists.
Let’s focus on the people shooting themselves into space on dick rockets and suits on the hill, and we’ll all benefit from it.
They can both be problems simultaneously, and it’s disingenuous to argue that there aren’t militant feminists pushing to keep all of the advantages from earlier eras.
This is BS, currently feminism looks to only strive after the cozy office places and various places of power. I didnt seen feminism once to call for equal numbers of female rig workers, construction workers, Alaska fishing jobs and similar… Feminists are mysteriously somehow always just after the lucrative office jobs…
Maybe it’s because I live in a rural area, but no guy I know seems interested/comfortable with any kind of emotionally deep relationship with another guy. Definitely not throwing shade there, I feel the same way and completely unprepared on how to speak with anyone other than my wife emotionally.
The more seemingly well adjusted guys are all family guys with kids, so they basically have no time to do anything that doesn’t involve the kids.
The ones without kids and the guys that never married or divorced all got into solitary hobbies like hunting or fishing. I like to trail run, so it’s basically the same with me. I feel like it’s basically impossible to make friends with another guy and I do try to!
Something I talk to a therapist about but otherwise have little idea what to do with is the fact that I literally have no actual guy friends, just coworkers and a few old college buddies that live hours away, so we only get together about one a year. I feel like the article was pretty good and it is very interesting that a trans man was able to capture the feeling so well.
It’s definitely cultural as well. I’m European and never struggled to make guy friends. I moved to New Zealand which is very British, and I really struggle here. My guy friends are other immigrants from Europe or South America. However, 80 percent of my friends are female. I love them but at times I definitely do miss having more dudes to hang out with.
Kiwi blokes are super quiet and steer away from serious conversation. It’s really hard here.
The “boys don’t cry” stereotype may be very British/American.
It’s definitely very cultural
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Lemme guess, half the small talk was about which High school you went to
i thought men in rural area have more friends, i thought men in rural area go fishing/hunting/camping with their friends. maybe i thought wrong.
I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men’s issues.
I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.
I’m a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I’d be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men’s issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.
Thank you, Kit.
Here are some questions:- I don’t know if women really understand how powerful testosterone is. What was/is your experience with it?
- What other biological differences did you notice? Were they temporary or permanent?
- How do you think men and women can better understand each other?
- What are some things you would change about women? And about men?
- What did you think about strip clubs when you were a woman? Did that opinion change as a man? Why and how?
- What did you think about women before transitioning and how did that change after you transitioned? And also about men.
I don’t want to wear out my welcome so I’ll stop there. No rush to answer, I’d prefer more complete answers to quick ones.
- For me, testosterone primarily feels like the ability to focus and critically think - like my head was foggy before and is now clear. Everything seems to be logical, and my ability to troubleshoot complex issues is dramatically stronger when my T levels are good. Without T, everything feels extremely emotional and even minor things feel like they’re high-stakes. That’s not to say that I don’t feel emotion with T, rather the emotions are more appropriate for the situation. I do find that I care less about people in general when on T - For example, when I see a stranger with a problem I don’t feel like I have an obligation to help them whereas before I had an intristic need to help everyone around me.
- I had many biological changes, such as a change in body fat and muscle, significant facial/body hair, hair thinning - which is a miserable conversion in and of itself, period loss, and changes in my genitals that I would prefer not to discuss. All of these were euphoric to me, meaning they made me feel good and more like myself.
- I think that the best way for a man to understand a woman and vice-versa is to roleplay online as the opposite gender. For example, you may have noticed that people are more willing to help and harass you as a female character. Male characters mostly get ignored.
- I thought on this one for a while and couldn’t come up with a strong response that doesn’t just parrot the talking points of this community.
- I felt indifferent and uninterested in strip clubs before transitioning. I still feel the same way. They just seem like a bad time to me.
- Before transitioning I didn’t understand gender dynamics at all. I thought it was a level playing field and had no grasp on the many courtesies and dangers that women face that men do not, and vice-versa. It’s often frustrating to see people rag on men’s or women’s behavior/privilege/issues, because people rarely hit the mark on reality.
I did also want to mention that one thing blew my mind - The way that the dynamics of a room change when it’s all men, versus when there’s a single woman in the room. With all men, it seems like guys relax and suddenly don’t feel the need to walk on eggshells. Social courtesies become significantly less important and men tend to communicate more directly. Next time you’re in a room of all men and a woman walks in, keep an eye out for the subtle differences in how men behave.
I love that you did this mini AMA. Thank you for that. 🤗
This is all very interesting. Thanks again, Kit.
On your last point. Guys only get to be guys when around other guys, exclusively.
Lots of women act like men aren’t right or they aren’t good enough when they actual normal and do normal guy shit.
Guys wants to call each other a cunt and rip into each other and tell funny stories, it’s how they bond and trust each other. Girls don’t like that and think guys should stop it. Either the guys act normal to them and it goes to HR or they act normal to each other and the girl is pissed off she is treated differently and goes to HR. The only thing to do is to act completely professionally.
Boys are just built different and I don’t think it’s fair that women always tell us and actual children how they should and shouldn’t act in a way that is against their nature.
Guys are in dire need of male only spaces where they can shoot the shit. I only really had it in sports clubs or as a child, or luckily in some work environments. But work isn’t the same as outside so that’s sucks. Wish my knee wasn’t fucked.
If you yearn for a male only space, check out the Freemasons. There’s something there for everyone, and it’s a great way to make friends later in life.
I wish there was a safe way for women to take T. I wanna experience clarity of mind and less emotion. I’m also assuming it increases being horny?
To be clear, clarity of mind is my own personal experience and it’s unclear if T affected me that way because that’s what it’s like for everyone or if it can be attributed to dysphoria. In other words, it’s possible that I didn’t feel right in my body so I couldn’t focus on the things around me.
Bear in mind that Estrogen levels drop during menopause so you’ll find out one day. :)
My horniness was not impacted by T.
I’m crossing my fingers that you’ll get a reply, and not as a PM. I’m bursting with curiosity but such things are so very difficult to even have opportunity to be enlightened.
I replied above just now. I got stuck on #4 and thought on it for the night.
Would you be able to answer some more questions please? I’m interested to hear more of your opinion and experience!
- Did you find as a man you are taken more seriously by employers and coworkers? Do you find your opinion became more valuable?
- What do you find are disadvantages of being a male?
Thank you!
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I did not find that people take me more seriously at work as a man. However, I work in tech and all companies I have worked are focused on ensuring that women have an equal place at the table. I imagine that other fields yield different results. – I did want to note that I had the opposite experience with healthcare. As a woman, doctors were less likely to take me seriously. As a man, they take anything I say to be the truth and trust me to make decisions.
-
Disadvantages of being male are:
- People are more reluctant to help you with anything and everything, as if he’s a man, so he’s got it.
- Harder to date and socialize. It’s downright isolating at times.
- Strangers are less likely to trust you.
- There are fewer social programs to help men in need. I was homeless for a spell and there were no shelters for men, for example.
- It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
- Strangers are more likely to be violent towards men.
- Must be careful around women so they don’t think I am a danger. For example, if walking at night and a woman is coming from the opposite direction I feel obligated to cross the street so they don’t think I’m going to attack or harass them.
FWIW, I hire in Tech, and our percentage of female applicants is incredibly low, usually under 1%. I do pay extra attention to their resumes, but often they aren’t even close to qualified for the position.
Thank you for sharing!
- It’s much harder to get a job in tech as a man, because companies try to meet a gender quota despite most applicants being men.
I’ve worked at woke companies who fought tooth and nail to say that they didn’t give women special preference in interviews. You can’t deny statistics, though. If you have 40% women engineers but only 10% of applicants are women then of course it’s easier.
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TIL my friendships with my bros are about 5x healthier than average.
I read this thought it sounded super melodramatic and exaggerated. I guess it’s just more rare to have deep friendships with the boys. Looking back it got me thinking that I might be the weird one with friends that have deep conversations and know/worry about the others mental health.
So i guess, to any guys that read this and felt like it could have been written about them: go out on a limb and talk to your friends. Chances are they want/need a more meaningful friendship too. They are also probably similarly apprehensive about opening up.
I have no issue opening up to other men, so long as they’re receptive, but very often (almost universally) I’ve ended up regretting it when I have done so.
I’m sorry it hasn’t been positive for you. Would you be open to sharing some of your experiences?
Sure, it’s not anything too tragic or traumatic. Openness has often been met with derision or mockery. Even if the other person is supportive during the initial openness, whatever is confessed is often brought up later for more negativity. In some cases, if my feelings were about a separate individual and I was seeking advice about them, the person to whom I was talking has taken what was said to the other individual in question.
Generally speaking, it seems best to avoid.
Wow, that’s awful. While not tragic, that does sound like little-t traumatic. What a way to discourage opening up. I’m sorry you had to go through with that. I hope you eventually find some better friends that can more respectfully hold your emotions.
I try to do that, but somehow it’s magnitudes harder to talk to men and I can’t figure out why. I’m probably already more open about how I feel than most men (at least in part because of the communities I chose to be part of, therapies, age, …), but opening up to women (or non-binary persons) feels way more natural and easy for me and I don’t even know if that’s because other men’s reaction to these topics are somehow subtly different (even with men who are also rather open) or because of some inhibitions on my behalf (e.g. not feeling safe around them because of bad experiences or because of an absent father figure or…).
It is melodramatic. He’s writing as an outsider who doesn’t know yet how to interact as a man, and may or may not have full male hormonal balance yet. Men form deep relationships with their male friends, but only on a long enough timeline for trust to be built, and then we display it differently. His perspective is that of a woman’s, so he’s probably missing a lot of nuance in reactions he’s getting. Something as simple as a knowing nod can mean a lot between men. Just because we’re not all lovie dovey, and hugging and kissing, doesn’t mean we’re broken, it means we’re men, with male mannerisms, male emotions, and male forms of bonding.
So i guess, to any guys that read this and felt like it could have been written about them: go out on a limb and talk to your friends
Friends? What are these friends you speak of?
I’m with you. Guys are much easier to talk to about a lot of things.
Though girls are easier in some ways.
Talk to a girl about an insecurity and she will beat you with it. Worried about being small oh just join a gym even if you go all the time. Worried about being short, oh I wouldn’t ever dream of dating someone shorter than me but there are girls out there who are shorter than you so try with them. Worried about low pay, oh you will get paid more in the future and then you will have worth. Anything like that girls are awful.
Missing something like a dead relative or ex. Girls tend to be better with that.
If you feel sad or talk to girls if you feel vulnerable or want help solving a problem talk to boys.
This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.
That’s my experience, too. Most of the times I’ve opened up to a girlfriend, it’s turned them off. They thought they wanted me to, but they regretted it, which made me regret it. Either that or they later used it to manipulate me. So I just stopped.
I’m a white, cis, heterosexual American male. I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
I wouldn’t know how to express my feelings the way the author has. I’d feel like a misogynistic neckbeard, callous racist, or ungrateful whiner. If, somehow, I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.
I can’t thank the author enough for writing this article.
I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
Why are you supposed to e.g. “feel endlessly guilty over things you cannot control”?
Yeah, just because we’re encouraged to understand our privilege doesn’t mean we’re supposed to feel guilty about it. That doesn’t serve anyone.
“Check your privilege” has only ever meant that people want others to understand how situations and histories might be different. White guilt is a thing white people made up to make it about them.
It’s generally just people not being able to accept being wrong about something. They take it as a personal insult and hit to their pride rather than just going oh? Verify? Oh shit, neat.
Instead it’s I must be a piece of shit. Other people must not like me now. They must be talking about me…
Mother fucker nobody paying attention to you but MAYBE yourself and MAYBE your closest loved ones lol.
If you walk around in life with a chip on your back, everything becomes an insult though. It’s the literal republican modus operandi primed mostly through religion via guilt.
Fortunately, it’s not anger in my case. It’s “just” poor self esteem and a tendency to feel guilt for things that I know (rationally, at least) aren’t my fault.
Yeah it’s definitely a hard habit to break. Largely depending on how you were raised with a bit of natural tendencies here and there.
It absolutely is a mindset though. One which you can get out of given enough challenge, time, patience, and professional help if you’re not good with executive function.
You’re completely right. It doesn’t serve anyone, but the feeling is there anyway. I have a history of feeling guilty about stuff that’s not my fault.
People who share some of my characteristics have historically done, and are currently doing, absolutely horrible things. Empathy with the victims isn’t enough for some. I’m part of the problem simply by being born, until I prove otherwise.
I can’t blame people who feel some suspicion and resentment, either. It’s justified.
I’m part of the problem simply by being born, until I prove otherwise.
Again: who is saying that? I’m sure there are some people who do, but in my experience that’s a really tiny minority. And the majority of texts I read about e.g. (male) privilege explicitly state that being privileged does not mean you’re guilty or a bad person.
I can’t blame people who feel some suspicion and resentment, either. It’s justified.
I mean yeah, I can understand why a women might prefer to walk on the other side of the street from me at night. It hurts of course, but I understand it. That doesn’t mean I need to feel guilty about it though.
What I’m saying is confusing and irrational. I appreciate that you’re trying to understand.
I know that what I feel isn’t healthy or productive. It doesn’t make sense, but it sticks with me.
I’m not American but the minister for Family/Sexual Violence in my country publicly said that “it is white, cis men” who “cause[s] violence in the world”. Was pretty gutted to find out that my ex (cis woman) treating me like shit is entirely my own fault according to the MP who is supposed to represent all victims of family, sexual, and relationship violence.
Honest question, what’re your thoughts on the racial reparations discussion? I was surprised to hear that it exists tbh, mostly cause of how impossible it seems as a target. But my understanding is that there are people getting some real attention saying that white people should give enough money that they can’t pay their bills to make up for their privilege.
I haven’t heard of it. In Germany there is some discussion about reparations for societies colonized by Germany, the genocides against the Herero and Namaqa and every once about further reparations for the Nazi crimes - all of which make a lot of sense to me, especially the former two as they haven’t received any significant reparations that I know of.
But that doesn’t mean you have to feel guilty. That’s, usually at least, not what people are asking for either. Guilt isn’t helpful.
Being aware of the social systems we live under, the power structures those systems create, and the blind spots we might have. That’s what’s being asked for.
No, it isn’t helpful. Part of that guilt comes from not being able to do enough. Yeah, I try to learn as much as possible, but that only goes so far. I’m not rich. I’m not powerful. There’s so much injustice that I want to change, but can’t.
I know logically that guilt is useless, but the feeling persists.
Lol
feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
Because of things our ancestors did long ago that has nothing to do with us right now as people.
Yup. Exasperating, I know. It isn’t reasonable or healthy, but I feel that way anyway.
I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.
Those people are racist, sexists. If they didn’t have you to target, they’d find another group. Don’t give them the time of day.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.
never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends
My bros and I are very emotionally open with each other. We’ve had sit-downs where we listen to each other and help each other through problems, hug each other when we cry.
Sure, I’m not going to do that with someone I just met 5 minutes ago, but once we know each other a bit we are very supportive and open.
Kind of have to take the first step. If you trust one of your mates, give em a hug, text em out of the blue and thank em for being a mate etc.
The theoretical steps are rather clear, it’s just a different “vibe” I have with men and women (therefore I guess most of my friends are women) - sure in the end I just need start doing it, but as with all emotional things it’s easier said then done.
Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn’t know is that male friendships aren’t as deep.
He’s a fool if he thinks he’s going to form deep connections with other men in a short time period, especially as an outsider. Men make 4 friends in junior highschool and decide that’s enough for the rest of our lives. Men are also very tribal. He’s going to have to wait for years, or even decades to find the deep and meaningful relationships he’s looking for. That’s just how men operate.
It’s very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.
My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It’s not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.
it’s not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
It’s spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it’s either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who’ve actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn’t separated us.
When I open up to women, it’s either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.
I just don’t anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.
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The way I’ve always said it is “it’s women’s rights not men’s wrongs”
Maybe, we as men, not so much society start pushing that, instead of waiting for others to do it for us.
We need to counter Lad Culture with telling them that talking about their feelings isn’t a pussy action. That we don’t have to wait for a wife to use as a therapist and surrogate mother.
When you see men pushing the toxic policies of “suck it up” on other guys with no cares to the background information, we need to call out the toxicity.
Things won’t get better so long as we enable the worst
Friends and family are the best, or at least the first therapist you should see. An actual therapist is required when the other two failed. That’s how a sane family or group of friends should work at least.
Often, found family for finding that assistance.
Another thing that we as men don’t want to admit (generalized statement,) are that traumas we suffer can often come from a familial source, and that distrust can poison our attempts to reach out to others.
Worse, those traumas can give improper perceptions about how a family works, and give frustrations due to finding out that your previously assumed normal life was in reality quite damaging for viewpoints when confronting how all the easy lessons we were taught were dead, decayed, and buried by 1970, if not earlier, and we’re working on tertiary information from unreliable sources that are grasping to the past to maintain control in their own lives.
I get what you’re saying (I hope ;-) ) and agree that women are allowed to do things that men aren’t.
[TW: Suicide, violence] I also think there are important differences between male privileges and female “privileges”. Male “disadvantages”* are generally still in the control of males. Military service is (or at least was) something that men (as a class) did to themselves, because they were the rulers. Prohibiting women from working or having a bank account was not something women had control over. Men commit suicide more often than women, but a suicide is still something that is ultimately in your hands - being murdered by your (ex-)partner or some stranger in a park isn’t. Of course it isn’t really that clear cut: how much control do you have when you are suffering from depression? And how much are you to blame for not seeking help when you’ve been trained you’re whole life to be “independent” and not show (or even feel) emotions?
But while it’s definitely not clear cut, I still think there are enough systematic differences to make distinction useful. Especially as the male privileges are much more in tune with what our society values: people get praised for getting shit done (be it fixing cars or shooting them into space), nation wide stories about being a good listener or friend are much rarer. You can amass insane amounts of money, and people will actually admire you instead of calling you greedy, while at least in Germany people start to have prejudices if you have more than two or three kids.
(*english is not my native language so I’m not as nuanced as I’d like to be)
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This really resonates, mainly because it’s so true. I think a lot of men these days are feeling lost, sad, lonely, and angry. Some of us think it’s because we have forgotten what it means to be a “real” man, and the answer is more bravado, more machismo. But maybe what we actually need is to start learning to communicate with each other on a meaningful level, to redefine manhood in a way that allows us to express emotions in a socially acceptable way, and start forming real, close friendships with other men.
It’s an important topic that is often brushed off due to the individuals that tend to bring them up. The problem is though, that the problems these individuals have are in part caused by the lack of emotional support men receive socially.
I’m not defending any of the macho know-it-all “gurus” that I’m talking about, but I’m just pointing out that it’s important for women as well as men to care about this issue and try to change it in their daily lives, because aside from being toxic to men, it also creates more problems and worsens the existing ones.
How do you try to change it? Just open up more serious conversations with men, talk about feelings, even if they look at you weird at the beginning.
Am I only the only one who thinks comes off like “men arent like women, and therefore broken”?
Not having to spend an hour discussing my feelings is actually one of the things I like about my friendships. I don’t want long deep hugs, they make me uncomfortable. And I definitely don’t want someone opening up to me about their life struggles. That’s not the kind of friendship I like or want.
I guess that makes me broken!
And it’s all perfectly fine to not want that.
The issue is there is a heavy expectation for all men to be like that. Many of us, me included, are not at all, and are often ridiculed for it.
I wouldn’t call you broken, just as I wouldn’t call an asexual broken. I do think there are men out there who wish they could be more vulnerable though, and if the current culture stops or hinders that I think they deserve to say something too.
I tried therapy to figure out how to express emotions and the male therapist said I was fine and keep going the way I am. I can’t cry and can’t really name my emotions or have awareness of what they even are. It’s so ingrained that this is the way we are supposed to be that even the professionals aren’t always aware.
That’s a bad therapist. Definitely try another, and another two or three.
Even a good therapist may not be good for you.
Find a new therapist. Part of what makes dealing with mental health issues so hard is that you sometimes really need to shop around for a therapist, which can be especially hard when you’re dealing with what you need help with 🫤
I understand what you mean. I highly recommend the book “Language of Emotions” as an aide in identifying and respecting one’s emotions.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8048177-the-language-of-emotions
And of course, talking out loud about your emotions with people you trust.
Not quite. To me, it’s more like “men don’t even have the option of building relationships like women do, and that’s not healthy. Society is broken.”
But they didn’t say that. They flat out said “men are broken”.
You seem to have stopped reading once you got through the headline and missed the entire article written afterwards.
Surely you have something more constructive to say than a sneering quip?
Sure: Read the article and reassess what you think it’s about. I for sure didnt walk away with the same impression you did, but I could see why I would if I read the headline and headed straight to the comments section.
At least read the article before you criticize it, because it’s nothing like what you seem to think it is.
I did read it and it’s riddled with shit I would never, ever want, and yet he presents it like it’s a bad thing. Here’s a choice example:
When traveling or running errands, and I saw a parent dealing with an exhausting kid, I could help and not be stared at like a creep.
I can’t imagine ever wanting to help with a strangers child. Not because I might be treated like a creep, but because it’s just none of my business. I would even go so far as to say that assuming they need help is problematic in itself. But he doesn’t address that; no, apparently men don’t help because we’ve been broken by society.
I was talking about the overall tone of the article. It didn’t feel like an attack or judgement.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that.
I mean it does because those things only make you uncomfortable because you’ve been conditioned your entire life to feel that way just because you’re a man.
Those things are basic human companionship.
So not only am I somehow fundamentallly broken, I’ve also been duped by society and I’m too stupid to even realize it?
You couldn’t be any more insulting if you tried.
Eh, I think it is more the fact that men aren’t willing to open up about shit when it is bothering them and they want to share. I don’t want to have a 30 minute share session at the start of all conversations, but it should be normalized that when a close friend asks how you are that you can say “Honestly not good because of X, Y, and Z and this is how I feel” without being made to feel like a freak.
yup, you’re, me too. and we’re wrong for it… lmao
As a human I have to say if you don’t recognise the negative issues you suffer because of our long history of social problems and messy biology then you’re absolutely delusional - men and women.
100% mate.
All my best friendships have been 99% ripping into each other and telling funny stories. Like I don’t tell shitty stories about work because I lived it once and I don’t want to live it again. No one else does either. Unless it’s to vent about someone because I’m angry. But I do tell funny stories about work.
Having said that even in the most masculine environments when anyone has had an issue or been pushed too fair the guys always rally and pick them back up.
Day to day shit is your own problem. The once in a month or few months is our problem and I’m here for you.
You boss was mean to you. You want to bounce other careers around or see if I can find someone to hire you? No, well grow up everyone’s boss is shit. Either leave or deal with it.
Your misses just cheated on you. Right come on I’ll get the guys and we’ll go to the pub, she’s a cunt you’re better off without her.
Also hand shakes are fucking great. I usually go for a shake and a quick hug. But the handshake is better.
Then we’ll all be happier if you dump your emotions on someone else.
I find complaining to be toxic. Which is why this thread sucks so much. We’re all just whining about each other.
@Rodeo interestingly, I’m learning a lot from this interaction. Like about how men normalize day to day misery and disconnection. So I’m very glad that this thread exists; thank you for being honest.
Hey at least you didn’t try to call me broken.
I find it toxic when people go on and on about minor problems that are in no way relevant to the people in the conversation and there is no way they can help.
All it is doing is bringing unneeded negativity into an environment. That’s toxic.
You want help? Yine I can help how? You want to ruin my free time when I’m trying to de-stress by going on about people and things that have nothing to do with me and I can’t help? Go away.
@Wanderer thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I’m mtf, being a woman made my life much much easier
I knew women were the superior gender all along
Not what I meant, I mean small things like before when I was socially awkward, people thought I was some kind of creeper… Now people just think I’m cute.
I know it’s not what you meant, I said it as a joke
Men just have the tougher lives
Way too easy to say it like that. It really is a double edged sword situation. Over all, woman get way more harassed. This comes from a guy that says being a woman is better for like 15 years, than got a SO that grts harassed a lot.
Like even friends (not friends anymore) will grope or only do nice things cause they just wanna F her.
“So I went down to Shelbyville and engaged in casual sexism against men, which was the style of the time…”
I have a million questions.
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Uhmm… You will now be a woman? you’re so supportive, thanks!
huh?
YWNBAW
They’re a TURF, report and block.
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If I had to guess it means “you will never be a woman” aka TERF shit
The comments at the bottom of the article though… I really hate people sometimes.
Oof they are awful, and indicative of the issues raised in the article. So many of the men commenting are defending the “man” stereotype as “natural”, and ignoring that men have issues existing in society probably because of the pressures of that stereotype. Nobody wants men to feel isolated and lonely and kill themselves 4x as much. I don’t think that’s a “natural” part of being a man. At least it doesn’t have to be.
And than they turn around and blame feminism for all the problems men face.
This is why it’s hard for me to take these types seriously.
They complain about not getting compliments, but refuse to compliment each other for fear of sounding “gay”. It’s like they only count compliments if it’s from a sexually interested woman they happen to find attractive.
But women, especially the attractive ones, know better than to compliment men randomly for fear of “leading them on”.
didn’t see the comments till you pointed them out. But… oof, yeah, its bad, real bad.
Men are also different from women. Not just physically but mentally. Part of the problem the writer had was not understanding how male friendships work and expecting a mirror of female friendships. Certainly it can be lonelier as a man but in some ways it’s just the way we are.
I think the important thing here is that there’s absolutely no reason it HAS to be this way. These aren’t intrinsic properties of male and female friendships. They are driven primarily by cultural factors and have changed significantly even over recent history.
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This is so eloquent. Your group has a beautiful thing and you are truly honoring your friend’s memory.
I really appreciate you taking the time to say that.
A side note to the above; men struggle to keep friends, especially as the years go on, but our group keeps growing (all initiated to the power of hugs and love).
I think it’s the openness that’s made it so much easier to stick together rather than fade away. I hope more men can open up and deeply bond beyond surface interests and common spaces.
Of course! Changing the world starts with changing the world immediately around you. You’re truly doing good, even more so by opening your group to newcomers!
Men and women are mentally different and it has nothing tobdo with culture.
It does when it comes to closeness and intimacy with friends. Look at a lot of European cultures where kissing your friends is extremely common and closeness is normalized.
It’s all the anti gay shit that gets spread in America that makes men uncomfortable to be close and open with their friends
Where the hell do you think cultural factors come from?
Where do you? Do you think that all societies in the world have the same culture as you?
I’m just saying the cultures arise from the people. There’s a reason things are the way they are and it’s not some evil corporation or government trying to oppress us. At least in the west. Can’t quite say that about China or other Communist regimes.
Things are the way they are because people are forced into the culture they were born into and are pressured at every angle to stay that way or face social backlash.
I got called gay cause I got too excited while talking to one of my friends. Because it’s a common culture trait in America that any overly positive emotion towards another guy means your a sissy boy
They called you gay not because they thought you were homosexual but as an offhanded insult. The two definitions have been disconnected for quite a while.
I mean, no, the definitions are not disconnected at all. Gay was used as an insult because it meant homosexual.
Trust me it wasn’t just an insult where I grew up it had a seriously negative impact on my ability to socialize or form any kind of romantic relationship
You’re right to a point, it’s just coming off as dismissive.
Yes, men and women are built differently through biology. Yes, hormones give an innate edge for certain factors. One of them may very well be the ability to last without a social structure for longer than women. We’ve slowly built up our society with smoky mirrors of those facts around us.
What they’re saying is that nature vs nurture isn’t 100% one way or the other which I think you’d agree with. It’s more you’re both pressing pedantic points lol.
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in some ways it’s just the way we are.
Is it? What makes you think that our loneliness is inherent to us? How is it inherent to us?
I’m just saying that men in general have a much easier time being alone. I don’t think we should always be alone, but more men than women have the ability to be solitary and happy at the same time.
What if being solitary and happy has zero foundation in being a “man” but comes about from being rejected by society as the man one is?
You do realize half of society is men right?
You mean that other men can’t reject you because you don’t represent their version of an ideal man or what?
And the other 50% is women, some of whom are solitary and happy because we don’t fit society’s idea of what a woman should be.
Sit down.
And the vast majority of pushback I’ve received for trying to change this sort of thing has come from other men. What exactly is your point?
Bro, I would do anything for long, deep hugs. I am unlucky enough to never have been hugged by anyone.
That’s so sad. I’d give you a hug, buddy!
Thank you so much.
How is that even possible.
Easily possible. Grow up somewhere with a lot of macho man mentality with a toxic masculine father figure that wants nothing more than for you to grow up to be their clone that only like MAN stuff. Took me over 30 years to be hugged the way I didn’t know i needed to be hugged because I fell into a friendship with a woman that knew a few broken men.
I don’t have any answer. Perhaps, fault lies with me, perhaps, I am just unlucky.
Uh. What state do you live in?
Me? Mostly in the state of depression. /s
I couldn’t resist. I live in India.
Lol nice. Well I’m sorry, if you lived in the US in a state that we frequent, I would get you a few hugs. Maybe you should just make a sign that says free hugs and stand in the middle of a public area. I’ll bet you would get some real good ones…
The problem is not about you. It’s about your ability to accept another man who wants a “female” friendship. And apparently you don’t want any of that, which makes you part of the problem.
I’m talking about a woman who wanted to physically be a man but is still mentally programmed as a woman could not understand male friendships. It’s not that men don’t have friends or deep friendships. It’s just that they’re usually different from the opposite gender.
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What’s especially unfortunate is that it’s not just men that perceive it negatively. I’m reminded of Brené Brown’s Ted Talk quote: https://youtu.be/psN1DORYYV0?t=16m37s
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Great talk, I recommend it too!
As others have said, it’s not just men that perceive that negatively; women do also. I can’t recall who said it, but feminism has meant that there are many different ways to be a woman now, but there is still only one socially acceptable way to be a man. The social consequences to men for being emotionally vulnerable can mean the loss of all social connections; I know that I lost about 3/4 of the people I thought were friends when I failed to successfully complete suicide. That creates a very strong disincentive to being vulnerable in the future.
I’m sure you meant femininity and not feminism.
I’m sorry for what happened to you. :( I hope you’re doing way better now.
However, there isn’t just one way to be a man. I think that’s the narrow perception that the concept of masculinity creates.
You don’t have to be any special way or have to do anything special to “be a man”. Just be.
For centuries, men have been defined through wars and combat, were dominant, violent, and were the main bread winners of the house and were considered the smarter of the two sexes. And women were considered lesser beings, unintelligent and unable to make important decisions like voting, and weaker. They were expected to be servile and it was allowed to give them corporal punishment if they do much as talked back. Men were at the top and women were at the bottom. That’s why any man who wasn’t didn’t have the set of characteristics that made them masculine were often bullied and laughed at. Through feminism however, women had nowhere to go but up and thrive.
Suddenly, men weren’t the dominant, smartest bread winners and violence became frowned upon. What was traditionally masculine or the set of characteristics that defined men, also applied to women and some became negative attributes. The lines between femininity and masculinity became blurred.
Women evolved and redefined what it meant to be a woman. And it’s basically to just be yourself and do your best to be a good role model. And honestly that could apply to anybody. Not just women.
We need to stop trying to define “what it takes to be a man” and just be. Anyone who doesn’t accept that is doomed to stay in the past and not evolve with the rest of society and live in constant frustration.
That’s it there, as a younger man most of the relationships I’ve been in end around 1-3 months in when I start trusting them and open up more emotionally. They almost always start ignoring me, ghost me or tell me it’s not working out.
It makes you really just lose confidence in yourself as a person, when you’re reserved they want you they want your body, once you open up and you’re vulnerable even once everything changes all of the sudden.
I’m lucky to have a girlfriend who doesn’t think like that, the fact that she is part of LGBT community probably helps.
and here I am wishing I could even find someone who wants me at all, even if it was only for my body
Gym
yeah, I’ve been hitting the gym since February. hopefully it will count for something some day.
