cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/20091173
I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
Thank fuck my native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns. I just use they for everything, much simpler that way.
I did not realize that typing exclusively in third-person, and pushing something that is obviously kink-related onto internet strangers was umm… not trolling?
I feel like the troll that does this gives people who fantasize about dragons a bad name, not to mention people who use neopronouns, for various non-trolling reasons, that usually hold some kind of personal meaning. Expression is complicated, but holy goddamn bollucks, third-person shitposting to try to bait people who didn’t read a bio into “misgendering” bans is asinine and takes validity from people who could use it. I don’t see how any mods have gone along with this “muh third-person antagonistic ranting means victimhood” shit.
Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide, because they are so very super-special… I hope this place doesn’t get tossed into dot world over this, ugh.
Tap for spoiler
I’m going to go consume alcohol and definitely
notlook at cute/sexy kobalds to cope. Feel free to DM me for info on the nature of creatures outside the scope of waking reality, if you are brave enough.Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide,
The message clearly and categorically states the rules still apply, and that behaviour is what gets actioned. Literally nothing about the post says that someone using neopronouns is otherwise exempt from the rules. If someone is telling someone to kill themselves, report it or DM it to a community mod.
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A lot of people say the same things about trans folks in terms of gay rights. Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities. And if you really don’t want to use them, it’s super easy to just ignore. Idk if I’ve ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.
Even if we take the person pug is talking about at face value (which, frankly, we shouldn’t for them in particular), it’s not a gender identity. It’s just an identity. We don’t have a pronoun for every granular identity under the sun, so it’s weird we accept that some people feel the need to have totally unique ones, which goes against the point of pronouns to begin with.
That said, being referred to in the third person would actually be fine imo, but I’ve been primed for that by being a weeb.
Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities.
All concepts are just lines in the sand, even down into STEM. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. The question is whether the new line drawn or erased disrupts other lines, who it benefits, and what it’s worth. I happen to have a very low opinion of the idea that gender is entirely arbitrary and without any line in the sand, and that “I identify as an attack helicopter” is not a conservative defamation of the trans and NB community, but a legitimate point of view.
And if you really don’t want to use them, it’s super easy to just ignore.
The commenter was removed and banned for disagreeing with the concept that dragonfucker is a gender. On the meta comm for the instance. Under a post by the main admin.
Idk if I’ve ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.
Dragonfucker has been banned from a number of communities for insisting on just that.
the human brain is good enough of a prediction machine to not need a clean linear line in the sand imo, I’d like to believe that our judgement ability is closer to a support vector machine than a simple one dimensional ‘greater than’ statement
e.g. you’d know if someone was actually identifying as an attack helicopter as opposed to trolling by saying so, right? maybe it’s just a phase for them but people have phases (imo) because they need to probe and gather first hand experience to learn
you’d know if someone was actually identifying as an attack helicopter as opposed to trolling by saying so, right?
IRL maybe, but the issue here is that (at least from what I’ve observed) dragonfucker can be pretty confrontational, as if seeking a fight. It’s obnoxious behavior and generally I roll my eyes and move along. I do think identifying as a “dragonfucker” for gender is hard to take as anything other than a long-running troll job, particularly because 1) dragons aren’t real and even if they were, 2) “dragonfucker” is surely a hobby or job description, not a gender. Most reasonable people would find this ludicrous at first glance, and have their opinion confirmed by this user’s strident tone and eagerness to take offense. It seems really unlikely that this person sincerely identifies as a dragonfucker (and honestly I can’t even believe we’re having this debate).
I really try to be balanced and understanding, but this user in particular seems to seek negative attention. Which is fine I guess, but I feel bad for anyone who falls into that trap.
As I recall, drag has said that “dragonfucker” is not drag’s gender identity. It’s just a username
Exactly, well said. And all it does is make a mockery of people experiencing real issues with gender uncertainty/fluidity.
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I thought the post was about neopronouns in general. Didn’t know the drag example was the main concern and thought it was just an exaggerated example.
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You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t a legitimate identity :)
Well you are certainly dragging your self.
You don’t have to refer to them at all, just block obvious troll accounts. It’s not like you’re going to shame them into not being a troll.
That might’ve gone over better if it didn’t read like an angry rant against “idiots”/“adult children”/“spoiled little shits”
If it was banned for incivility, that would have been one thing. But it was banned for ‘gatekeeping’. Writing on the wall, and all that jazz.
i see the gatekeeping. It’s the same an antiLGBTQ person would say to an LGBTQ… “your pronouns aren’t valid”. So yes. It is gatekeeping. Thank you mods for keeping the area LGBTQ allied!
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Seems mostly ok to kick someone for being rude and directly offending a specific person in their posts, regardless of the opinion voiced.
Is it safe to asume that this is why the mods have
…been planning on moving 196 to lemmy.world ASAP…
i have .world straight up blocked. when the man or bear thing happened EVERY shitty post/poster came from there. and watching pugjesus throw their little shitfit has only cemented that decision.
hilariously i’ve had way better interactions with .ml users, so i guess if the migration does happen i’ll just hang out there. i’d much rather dodge politics than thinly-veiled-to-outright misogyny and casual transphobia lmao
I promise I’m not stalking you, I think we’re just following the same journey and comment progression!
I block/unblock .world as I appreciate the content but the drama:person ratio can get really high. It’s mostly thanks to a small number of chronically online people who enjoy throwing fuel on the fire and leading a crusade to defederate and/or brigade whichever instance whenever there’s a hot button topic. This seems to gather and focus otherwise aimless “not nice people”, á la the man vs bear scenario.
Eh, I don’t see that as a good idea… also there’s already a 196 in lemmy.ml
I don’t like the idea either. If true, it seems like the mods/community are upset they can’t feed trolls, or bully people who aren’t the “right” type of queer.
i don’t mind what people call themselves and I’ll use it to refer to them if I notice it, but they shouldn’t expect their pronoun to be understood if it’s something obscure
Wow…looking at these comments, i realise I still have a lot to think about regarding my exact stance on all this…the fact that I have have zero irl exp in this is not helping…
Because nobody IRL uses neo-pronouns XD
Nope, never, except for all the times they do:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/pronouns-usage-among-lgbtq-youth/
Even if you think it’s a weird thing to do you could just choose not to engage, which is advice written in the post you commented on.
I mean, 4% is basically never. Unless you want to argue literally cannot be used metaphorically.
I know some who do, quite a lot actually because the neutral french pronoun is a neopronoun
Great! Definitely have my respect for standing up to gatekeeping. Gatekeeping has no place in a trans community. Be who you want. Anyone telling you you can’t should be luigi’d to somewhere more fitting them. Allies not enemies.
When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral “they” allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?
It’s fine by me, but I’m not sure how other moderators (or admins) feel about it
Not personally affected, but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason “misgendering” for a comment talking about “drag”'s behavior but using “they”.
Not warned. Not comment deleted with “please use pronoun at all times”. Just bam.
If the general stance is that reaction can be “up to the admin”, that’s a bit… minefield-y.
If the general stance is that reaction can be “up to the admin”, that’s a bit… minefield-y.
I understand that this might seem problematic. We (the mods of 196) are only partially in control of what is removed and who is banned, due it being hosted on blahaj.zone.
Lemmy.world admins are sociopaths mad with their own power, so that’s an awesome policy. This is why I block the whole shitty instance.
While true, there are other instances out there.
All good, thanks for explaining. :)
I’d have to see the comment and context to pass judgement, but I can see how a mod might see using “they” to refer to someone who doesn’t use “they” in a context about how that person doesn’t use “they” as intentional misgendering instead of accidental misgendering.
Thanks. It was surprising to see it interpreted that way, especially given the context (talking about, not to, an obvious troll), but not a difficult rule to adhere to once it’s clear.
but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason “misgendering” for a comment talking about “drag”'s behavior but using “they”.
No you didn’t
Why are you saying that?
Just shitting on a discussion like that adds nothing.
Or if you do know the comment in question I was referring to and I missed some context that wasn’t visible in the modlog, please let me know.
I’m saying that, because I’m the instance admin, and I don’t permanently instance ban people for a singular comment using “they” in regards to someone who is explicitly ok with they…
I have no idea which comment you were referring to, but I do know that your representation of what you saw is not what actually happened…
It’s a useful feature of language for ‘they’ to be a valid default you should always be able to fall back on.
I don’t even know who any of you are on Lemmy, and I don’t care to. I’m rarely ever even paying attention to your names to begin with.
This is a big part of it, to be honest. Dragonfucker eagerly takes offense when people don’t use the “drag” pronoun, but most of the time users aren’t even looking at handles, and just defaulting to “they” as a general-use pronoun.
It depends on the person. If the pronouns you are using for someone is upsetting them and they make that clear, don’t keep using them. If the only pronouns you can use make you uncomfortable, then simply don’t interact with the person in question. And if the person in question is trolling or otherwise misbehaving, report them without doing so in a way that ignores their pronouns.
When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral “they” allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?
Are you accepting that this is in fact misgendering, but still asking whether it’s an acceptable form of misgendering?
I believe they specifically meant when you don’t know the person’s gender/pronouns.
I am assuming it as “not adding gender to the sentence”. Neutral. Leaving it out. Not misgendering. It is how people have always talked about someone when the gender is either unknown, irrelevant, or hard to assume.
I am respecting a site or community’s rule that this is not the case on their space, but it’s such a deviation from the norm that I want it to be clear.
The qualifier “non-tolerable” was clumsy. I was trying to ask if it fell more on “honest mistake, but not allowed” or “assumed to be an intentional transphobic trangression”.
Understandable, but
Not misgendering. It is how people have always talked about someone when the gender is either unknown, irrelevant, or hard to assume
Your later comment suggests you have a particular user in mind, in which case that user’s pronouns are known, relevant, and require no assumption.
I am respecting a site or community’s rule that this is not the case on their space, but it’s such a deviation from the norm that I want it to be clear.
It should be about respecting the individual(/system/thing), not just respecting a rule?
I was trying to ask if it fell more on “honest mistake, but not allowed” or “assumed to be an intentional transphobic trangression”.
It doesn’t sound like an honest mistake. Maybe it was from the user you mentioned who got banned, but it sounds like you’re trying to see if it’s okay for you to do it on purpose.
But maybe I’m misunderstanding! I would like to be
Thanks for responding! I hope you have the patience to help me understand a bit more. :)
I guess we differ on whether you can respectfully refer to someone without gendered language?
Meaning, the mistake was assuming you could be neutral, not on not knowing the requested gender.
E.g. in academia (at least in my country) we tend to talk about authors of a particular paper as “they” whether they are one, several, male, female etc, even if you know their gender. It is consided respectful, unassuming and inclusive.
Do you think it is disrespectful to e.g. say “I love my partner, they bought me legos for christmas” when talking about my spouse to a colleague even I know she’s female? Where my motivation is to not have gender in the conversation?
Thanks for responding! I hope you have the patience to help me understand a bit more. :)
Of course! Thanks for asking and being open ☺
E.g. in academia (at least in my country) we tend to talk about authors of a particular paper as “they” whether they are one, several, male, female etc, even if you know their gender. It is consided respectful, unassuming and inclusive.
Yeah I think this is totally normal and okay, but if the particular paper in question, e.g., is about gender, and the author writes about their unique gender, I think it would be inappropriate/disrespectful to not use their preferred pronouns°
Do you think it is disrespectful to e.g. say “I love my partner, they bought me legos for christmas” when talking about my spouse to a colleague even I know she’s female? Where my motivation is to not have gender in the conversation?
It definitely depends on the person and the culture. Some people, cis or not, feel a strong internal sense of their gender, and may feel misrepresented when referred to with neutral pronouns. (Further reading °if I were writing a paper and referenced this author, I would be sure to use Their preferred pronouns, because Their pronouns are known and relevant (They/Them, Capitalized))
I’m quite queer and have facial hair, so when I refer to my partner with neutral pronouns, people assume she’s a man, and then she has an uncomfortable first interaction with those people when they meet her, and wonders if I’m embarrassed to be in a relationship with a woman.
Personally, if I hear someone specific being referred to with they/them pronouns when their preferred pronouns ought to be known, I assume they’re non-binary, trans, or at least some sort of queer
Ultimately, ‘they/them’ pronouns aren’t entirely neutral. Those pronouns imply personhood, can strip away identity from some, and are an identity for others
Thanks again! I’m feeling a bit different about the exact lines here, but it helps me a lot to understand why and where it might hurt others.
People who take their time to respond thoughfully like you do, make online spaces much easier to navigate.
What an impressive way to phrase that. I haven’t heard such intentional language since my social work program lol
People who take their time to respond thoughfully like you do, make online spaces much easier to navigate.
You’ve demonstrated this better yourself than I did imo, so thanks for that!
Most of the time I don’t ask people their pronouns in public I just tend to use “they/them” until I overhear someone saying their actual pronouns then’ll use them.
As for here on Lemmy I just look at their pronouns in the bio or just don’t use pronouns at all in my comments.
I respect everyone and if I make a mistake that’s okay and I’ll refer to them with the correct pronouns.
I’m seeing a lot of downvotes on this post, if you feel you disagree, feel free to send me a DM.
Opinions aside, thanks for clarifying this.
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well see i belive in my brain (biological) that im kitty so therefore im still valid in ur terms :3
(also gender can be independant from anything biological meows)
I think the binary form of gender is a social construct, but the entire spectrum of gender identity has a biological basis because you can change aspects of people’s gender by affecting them on a physiological basis, like with hormones etc. Identity expression isn’t always related to gender or biology, I think, and it doesn’t have to be.
Oh, to be clear, just because you believe in something doesn’t mean it has the same biological implications as gender identity. I hope I am not being rude or anything :3
And yes, you’re a good kitty, Max head pat.
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Are ‘nounself’ style neopronouns included here?
Like drag?
Apparently they are included, by the actions of the admins in the linked thread.
NP don’t bother me at all, but that user intentionally stirs the shit in myriad other ways. Short account lifetime, TONS of replies, intentionally controversial posts, feels the need to comment on every single post that gets traction. I think “we should be nice to AI because it might be alive” has been my least favorite arc so far, close between that and declaring all of lemmy transphobic (in a BZ post no less). Block drag and move on. This post was proof enough for me personally it was a great choice.
Aside from all the drama, they also encouraged users to commit suicide (which is why they were banned from trans on blahaj) and used sock puppet accounts. They were banned from 196 2 days ago.
he
🤔
I copied from another comment using “he” and forget the right pronouns for a second, it’s fixed now.
(Kinda ironic I forgot, since the whole thing started with their neopronouns 😅)
(Kinda ironic I forgot, since the whole thing started with **his** neopronouns 😅)
Ha, you did it again! ;)
