Looks like the Ghostrunner developers also have an issue with paid mods running off their IP.
In a considerably more ideal world than the one we live in, all games, not just mods, would be free and everyone could just donate to developers of games they found worth the money.
It’ll probably take a long time for that world to materialize, since it’d require all corporations and billionaires to disappear forever first.
In the meantime, either make free mods with an option to donate, or make your own games. Personally I think it’s a waste of time and effort to spend so much of your life on mods for AAA games. I could understand if it was just for fun, but this guy seems to treat this way more seriously.
It’ll probably take a long time for that world to materialize, since it’d require all corporations and billionaires to disappear forever first.
It’d require universal basic income first because game devs would have to work unpaid and may only make some money if they’re lucky. We know from open source software that 99% of people don’t donate shit.
I mean, yeah. Maybe not exactly UBI, but my ‘considerably more ideal’ scenario assumes we don’t have to spend most of our lives just to make a living.
In a considerably more ideal world than the one we live in, all games, not just mods, would be free and everyone could just donate to developers of games they found worth the money.
Great idea so now corporations are going to think they can get away with not paying me as well because I should just donate my labour. It’s a nice idea but it doesn’t work unless we have robots to do all the work, and then of course I still wouldn’t have any money in that scenario so the government would have to give me some. And I just know people would start complaining about freeloaders.
Learn your lesson : Don’t sell mods.
Yeah, there’s enough enshitification already in the world with all sorts of monetization trying to turn everything into subscriptions.
If someone wants subscription revenue that much they should release their own game rather than turn mods into yet another subscription hell hole.
Sim racing is full of paid mods, and it’s working out fine. We acknowledge when someone puts effort into development, probably because majority of sim racers aren’t teens and have worked jobs.
Sim games are sorta their own beast when it comes to mods.
Oh really? Why can’t other games be the same beast when it comes to mods? Does the VR mod take sales away from CDPR?
In sim games you usually get the game and then get a vehicle you want to specialize in. You may put hundreds or thousands of hours into that vehicle and you know the ins and outs.
Mod development wise you may have to model the vehicle from the ground up. The vehicle has to have functioning gauges, be tuned to handle and behave like the vehicle in real life, fail like the real thing and basically BE the real thing. Take DCS for example. The game itself is actually free but the modules are paid. The detailed modules can go for around $70 or so dollars like the F16. You can use the real life flight manual for the F16 to learn how to use it in game. Train sims are similar. If you are real particular about a specific train you can find the module for it and expect probably pretty damn good detail down to nameplates and specifications
You arent going to get that sort of involvement in a game like Skyrim, Fallout, or Cyberpunk. You could maybe go down to that level of detail but that level of detail may not be able to be appreciated in a game that doesent simulate things like aerodynamics or how tire grip changes depending on temperature.
Mods are and should be a passion project. The moment you implement mods as income stream people and companies are going to exploit the shit out of it. See: Roblox, Skyrim, etc
In games you usually get the game and then get a mod that you want to play. You may put hundreds or thousands of hours into that mod.
Mod development wise you may have to create models from the ground up. A mod has to have functioning logic, be fit to the game but modify it in a significant way, feel like a change to the game.
You are seriously trying to say that a VR mod doesn’t take effort to build?
You can use the real life flight manual for the F16 to learn how to use it in game. If you are real particular about a specific train you can find the module for it and expect probably pretty damn good detail down to nameplates and specifications
Irrelevant. The only relevant thing regarding the quality-price consideration is whether a player is ready to pay for a particular mod.
The moment you implement mods as income stream people and companies are going to exploit the shit out of it. See: Roblox, Skyrim, etc
Arbitrary nothingburger claims. You just described how paid mods work in sims, so why don’t people ‘exploit the shit’ out of mods in sims?
@Nindelofocho@lemmy.world You seem to essentially be saying the sim mods take a lot of work so it is okay. But that can easily be the case and I would argue has been the case with this VR mod for Cyberpunk 2077 for example.
I think what’s really going on here is that the sim devs recognized even paid mods are in their interests and didn’t go after them. It may have played a factor that they’re generally not been these giant devs raking in endless money.
If a mod marketplace works for some games, that’s cool, but I think CDPR has the right to not approve of that model when it comes to their IP. An open source model benefits everyone and can also be viable for mod developers :)
If someone puts their own free time and effort to make a mod, they should be allowed to sell it. If you want to spend your free time copying that mod, please do.
You’re not entitled to free labor, because you feel like it. It’s a game mod, it’s not a life necessity, playing games with out mods works as well. You are telling me that people that pay several hundred dollars for a VR headset can’t afford to give someone 10-20$ for their work.
You’re also not entitled to modify (which is what mod is short for) someone else’s work and sell it. If they allow you to then great, go for it if you want. However, you don’t get to complain when they say no. They can still ask for donations, which is what most modders do.
You should be, what’s the difference between selling modification to other things that people do all the time. Cars, instruments, music, phones, software and 5 million other things.
They are not selling their work, they are selling their own work, they are not selling the game with the mod, their are selling a mod to the game.
It’s just that gaming companies are dickheads and want to have exclusive rights to having a market around their products.
Of course you get to complain, why shouldn’t you complain if you don’t like something and think it’s unfair. Wether it’s legitimate or not you should complain, then if someone listens or not thats another question.
You don’t have to buy mods, dude there are plenty of mods that are free, but if someone wants to sell it why not. The only thing that will happen is that you will have more quality mods, paid or free. Then there’s the question if you have exclusive rights to a mod, I would say no, anyone should be able to copy your mod.
If you want to make money for your effort, Dev a game. The idea that you should be able to piggyback off the work of another dev team and profit from it is BS. It’s like saying you should be allowed to walk into Starbucks and start selling custom mugs to their active customers; no way they would allow that
You people live in a fantasy world, how the does one who can’t make a game make a game. That’s a lot of work, what is the issue with piggybacking from another ones work if it benefits both parties.
Give me a scenario where it hurts the original developers, a real scenario.
I don’t really care about the developers tbh, what I care about is the community, and paid mods hurt the community. Well-received mods have always been thanked by donations, and there’s nothing stopping that system from continuing today, but the idea of monetizing the community sandbox is toxic and should be wholly rejected.
Why? If I’m a mechanic and upgrade a car that someone else made you wouldn’t care at all. I’ve always thought it was crazy that people act so entitled to software being free.
Hell cyberpunk itself wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for decades of work by Windows and console devs. Everything is built on top of someone else’s work so I don’t buy that as a reason for modders to go uncompensated.
No one’s saying they’re entitled to free labour. But you can’t make money off somebody else’s work, that’s not fair to them, not if they haven’t already given agreement.
Making money of someone else’s work is the whole economy, that’s not an argument. I can understand if it’s taking money from the original developers but is definitely not the case.
In what way is it not fair? The game developer has full control over the game and the API it allows modders to use to make mods.
Is it that you are taking the money from the developers? Because you still need to buy the game, if anything the modding community makes the game more attractive to buy.
So what is the unfairness in the case of a modder wants to sell his mods?
How is it not fair? Cyberpunk is the platform for their mod just like Windows or PlayStation is the platform for Cyberpunk. Everything we do is built on someone else’s work.
PlayStation is not a platform that you build on top of it’s the operating system runs the game it’s a totally different concept.
You don’t modify the operating system to make the game you make the game in such a way that the operating system can understand but you create your own code. Modine is literally modifying somebody else’s code.
An open source model benefits everyone and can also be viable for mod developers
Sure, in the sense that you get fewer quality mods. Is that what you meant by “benefits everyone”?
This guy is not doing any favors for the modding community.
I don’t understand this at all.
rockstar did the same thing to the VR mods that were made for GTA games.
the guys are developing mods that are going to make me want to purchase and play the game. why is that a problem?
I don’t understand intellectual property
You don’t understand because you didn’t read the article
In this case it’s cause the modder is charging money for the mod, I think CD Project Red even offered to allow it to exist if he stopped charging before this, so I would argue this is on the modder
I don’t understand what difference it makes to CDPR. if the guy makes a few bucks developing mods for the game, then he can spend more of his time developing the mod, and making mods for other games. right? in what way is it harming CDPR
He always had the option of using a donate option instead of locking it behind a paywall. CDPR tried getting him to go that route and he basically told them to pound sand so here we are.
Property rights get all sorts of goofy when money is involved. If homey had released the mod for free and just had a patreon or whatev on the side, no one would care, but because he was charging for it, CDPR is obigated to vigorously defend their copyright.
There’s a legal aspect where if you don’t defend your intellectual property you may lose it.
You also don’t want to set a precedent because if you let some rando do it, why not let a company do it? Why not let Google do it?
Modding implies toying with someone’s IP, and the basic premise is that you can’t paywall the resulting product. There’s a lot of leeway and you can ask for donations, offer private beta to your patrons etc… it can definitely be cash-flow positive but a straight up paywall is a violation of the social contract that governs the modding scene.
if you don’t defend your intellectual property you may lose it
Another day, another instance of someone confusing copyright with trademarks.
Bit petty to point that out since it’s entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
Not exactly, they made him remove the RDR 2 vr mod. the GTA is still up on github.
this is a terms of service issue, but they’re using dmca (copyright) to enforce.
he technically has a case for selling, but defending it would be too expensive. LR also isn’t socially adept so he’s self-sabatoged himself too.
I don’t understand intellectual property
I’m asking from a place of curiosity, not a place of judgement. Have you ever created anything? A piece of art, poem or prose, a film, a program, etc?
In sim racing, Assetto Corsa has tons of paid mods, and simultaneously its developer is one of very few profitable companies. How come Kunos aren’t bankrupt from paid mods existing?
What does that have anything to do with my comment?
I am an artist who is VERY anti-IP law. The system as it exists is evil and does far more harm than good. IP is not some holy grail that deserves protection when it can be so easily abused. I would rather have no IP law than the current system, but I’ll settle for reforms.
I agree with this.
That said, the prohibition of paid mods should be a cultural matter, not a legal one. It shouldn’t be illegal, but we as a gaming community should refuse to engage with them as poor practice
Makes me think of all the day care places with Disney characters painted outside the walls…
Evil is a really strong word that I’m not sure I can get behind here.
It’s part of an overall system that protects the Haves from the Have-Nots. I consider it evil.
Copyright makes no sense. As long as there is a correct citation, it’s kosher as far as I’m concerned.
“This song was originally created by @turdnugget” should be the point of copyright and not the current rent seeking behaviour of the ruling class.
So, what if I wrote a book and got it published, but it didn’t sell well. Some big company copies it, puts a lot of effort in promoting it and it becomes a bestseller. I don’t get any of the money for it, but they cite me as the original author. How is that fair?
You just described academic publishing.
So how is that fair then?
You did not describe a copyrightless world, you described academic publishing. On that note, fortunately open access allows the have nots to acquire the same knowledge of the haves. Elabakyan showed how good it could be but the copyright barons had to ruin it for everybody. Furthermore, removal of copyright would curtail the elite’s ability to impose a message on the proletariat.
I will extend the same question to you.
Plenty of music, still think copyright is stupid.
Attribution, 100%, copyright itself is stupid.
Now I extend the same question to you.
I mostly write but have wanted to make a game for a while.
Just need to find someone to code?
I think that’s the easy bit. For me at least.
Any sort of artwork is expensive to commission though. And if you’re born without a shred of artistic talent in your entire being, you ain’t doing it yourself.
So I’ve got some very broad strokes vision of a game I want to build and I haven’t expanded on it further because I know I can’t afford to make it.
If I do decide to make it, I’d have to hire someone to do 3D modelling* at the very least. I don’t see a world where that’s feasible without copyright, because then I’d just be paying someone’s salary (or commissions) and be out of pocket for it.
* No, don’t worry, I’m not thinking of yet another photorealistic-ish looking 3D game. More like something in the style of the 3D Zelda games or like some of the (MMO)RPGs of the 00s.
No, I’d like to do that myself. Mostly need the time and sufficient motivation. Most of my time is eaten up GMing multiple ttrpgs a week right now.
yes
Do you mind sharing what it was/is?
I have no idea what your question is getting at. I am a published artist but I pay my bills with unrelated W-2 work
I said from the get go that I was asking from a place of curiosity not judgement. I wasn’t “getting at” anything. It interests me to know what your stance is and how it might be informed. Congrats on being published, that’s pretty cool.
if I could sustain myself with art by charging a few bucks like the mod developer in this article is doing, then I would
I think that’s probably most artists’ dream!
End corporate personhood. IP laws have become malign corporate distortions of reasonable artist protections. No company should be allowed to ‘own’ anything, but certainly not IP. A company has no intellect, thus cannot have intellectual property.
As for this case in particular, selling a mod is absolutely not infringing on the IP of the game it is attached to any more than selling a clip on bookmark/magnifying glass/book light (a tool attached to a piece of media to grant the user a useful extra functionality/greater ease of use when interacting with that piece of media) infringes on the IP of the author.
No copyright
Fuck all the DMCA trolls, that guy isn’t hurting any of their profits. He made dozens of games work in VR that never had a VR option, which nobody else has done for those games. It’s not unfair for him to make money from his unique work when the demand is there.
If he had a generic mod that happened to support Cyberpunk 2077 / that other game that got him DMCA’d, I’d agree. But he’s using that IP, name, etc. to market his product and sell it - the publisher is well within their right to not want to be associated with that.
A DMCA (copyright) troll has a much different connotation than what these two publishers are doing.
He kind of does, doesn’t he? His software supports 40+ games, it’s not just Cyberpunk. There’s no Cyberpunk content in his mod, it’s just software that manipulates other software. It seems insane that people are supporting this as a legit DMCA takedown, and that the response has been to pirate his software like that is somehow now justified by him allegedly violating CDPR IP. I don’t get it at all. If he was distributing a modified version of their game that would be one thing but it’s software that allows users to modify a variety of different games they have a license for, which is obviously something else entirely.
He did violate their IP, just not with the mod itself but the advertising / his posts - at least in my uneducated opinion.
Take these examples:
https://archive.is/xKCtk https://archive.is/bfg53
He’s using their IP to advertise his commercial product - a paid mod that supports their game. This use of IP generally isn’t considered fair use. It’s not the fact that it supports the game that’s a violation, it was the advertising that was more my point.
And then as DMCAs generally go, companies overreact (like Patreon) and overreach. I don’t think CD Project Red could reasonably have done anything if all this was was a footnote that his mod supports CP2077 and the advertising was happening via content creators plugging it - or otherwise off Patreon. But because he happens to use their IP to advertise directly, this was the outcome.
I’m not a lawyer though, there is probably more at play here.
That makes zero sense. DMCA the offending videos/images then. You can’t extend DMCA to related things that don’t infringe. That makes absolutely no sense.
I can’t load those links so I’m not sure what you are referring to but broadly speaking, I don’t see the issue with using a trademark in the context of advertising that your product is compatible with another product. It’s not fundamentally different than an advertisement for an iPhone case using Apple trademarks to convey that it’s a compatible product when it’s not made by Apple. Additionally, this seems incorrect because from everything I have seen they specifically refer to the software as being in violation of their IP. I haven’t seen anything where they suggest his use of their trademarks in advertising is the issue.
“Using the name” would be a trademark violation, not copyright, and that’s not a claim I’ve heard made. It sounds like he’s very clear that it’s his project.
This is exactly DMCA trolling. If he is not using or sharing any IP (game assets, logos, images, characters, code, etc.) in his mods, then he’s not violating their copyright. Making a program that interacts with their IP is not a copyright violation, because he did not distribute any of their IP.
Unless I’m missing something. I haven’t been following this, but it does seem like a perfect example of DMCA abuse.
Even if he’s sharing video footage of the mod working with their game, that’s likely protected. (I think it’s called “Fair Use” in the US?) Nintendo is a massive DMCA troll about that, claiming anyone sharing Let’s Play footage of their games is copyright violation, and throwing out DMCAs like Halloween candy.
Which is why the DMCA is bad legislation; there are no penalties for abuse by copyright holders, and the cost to fight a DMCA takedown notice in the courts is prohibitive. There need to be harsh penalties for companies abusing the system to target content that a reasonable person would say is clearly protected use. Without that, the end result of the DMCA laws were clear, right from the start.
We need digital sovereignty so creators can host their content on local-law abiding servers that ignore America’s corrupt, bullshit DMCA takedown system, and whose monetization can’t be shut down by American payment processors.
He made a mod that uses the IPs name and assets packaged and sold. In violation of the licence agreement of the games assets.
He’s in violation of IP and copyright. It’s really cut and dry here.
He did not make a stand alone product that is fully self sufficient that just happens to support the game. No, he made a direct modification of someone else’s code/product and is selling it with out permission.
no fuck off paid modders, if you want money go make your own software or follow the rules
Eh? They did make their own software.
Would you be fine with a DMCA for BigPicture Beta or Virtual Desktop because they “interact” with various video games?
What about TeamViewer?
Same concept, this is just a “mod” instead of an executable. Which hilariously this could easily be.
why should we follow the rules set out by game developers? The mods contain no copyrighted content, so legally the game devs don’t get a say, and nor should they. Should the creator of the gameboy screen light have made it for free? Should electricians have to check if the original construction crew for a house approves before changing the wiring?
The existence of modding communities is predicated in being communities first and foremost, not jobs or money making schemes. This behavior poisons the well, creating a toxic community that makes the mods inaccessible to those not willing to be nickel and dimed after already purchasing the game.
only because capitalism is toxic overall. But why apply this as a double standard for modders? Fan artists can do commissions. And communities which are not fandoms rarely have a stigma against money trading hands.
He was literally given the option to take donations or commissions instead.
So what? Why is the business model of charging for access specifically a problem only for modders? It’s such a double standard.
modders also often do commissions. that’s entirely fine, because in that case people pay for the devs time, not the mod, which is still freely available or entirely private, both of which are fair game.
but you can’t put a paywall in front of mods.
there’s many reasons for that, but most importantly for the community: it ruins the community.
How does that ruin the community?
are you serious?
- fragmentation
- low effort slop
- incompatibilities
- cost
- and more
fragmentation:
dependencies are a common practice in modding. they allow for modularized packaging of software, making maintenance easier for devs, and content choices easier for users. win-win.
paid mods hinder this by incentivizing modders to put frameworks - which would be the most profitable - behind paywalls.
low effort slop:
see the horse armor bullshit, or any other time bethesda tried to introduce paid mods, including creation club (which is literally paid mods). every time this happened the “stores” got flooded with low effort, low quality, but super expensive bullshit.
this then buried high quality content under mountains of shit, made worse by rampant bot abuse and algorithm manipulation.
this is the obvious result of paywalls in modding: when it’s not about passion, it’s about money. and when it’s about money, there is no low that sellers won’t sink to.
incompatibilities:
with paywalls in place modders will actively seek to interfere and break other mods. this has already happened in free modding, also many times, but that were either instances of egotistical infighting between modders, or straight-up malware deployments.
what’s different when mods are paid, is that there is a financial incentive to build a walled garden. to build a system of software only compatible with your own creations, and nobody else’s, so users can’t mix and match and have no choice about where to buy from.
this alone would effectively end modding entirely.
cost:
paywalls would be stupidly expensive. again, the best (or rather worst) example of this is bethesda. CC content is stupidly overpriced, and at the same time lower quality than what is available for free. the cost alone is so absurd, that it would definitely destroy the entire community of any game that implemented paywalls, because, again, the incentives align to encourage high prices to target whales instead of normal users. this is the case for every single paywall in gaming, and it certainly applies to modding.
and more:
paywalls in modding are a legal nightmare. I’m not a fan of the current copyright system, but at least right now modders don’t have much incentive to enforce their IP with DRM tools. paywalls mean there would definitely be DRM tools in mods.
apart from that there’s also the issue of law itself. in the EU for example the return policy for digital goods would probably force some kind of compliance check into any software that tried to do paywalls for mods outside of the original companies stores; that’s why bethesda only sells on internal stores. that and vendor lock-in.
vendor lock-in itself would be catastrophic for many communities. this would basically mean that some company controls all aspects of modding, including what content you’re allowed to create. so say goodbye to anything credit card companies, i.e. the U.S., doesn’t like, because all of that is immediately forbidden.
remember the porn ban credit card companies tried to enforce on steam and itch.io a couple months back? that’s a guaranteed scenario for paywalled mods. someone has to handle the “pay” part of the paywall, and credit card companies will enforce their weird moral guidelines on everyone if paywalls become a thing.
any single one of these would ruin a community.
and you seriously couldn’t even come up with a single one?
how high on corporate shoe leather are you?
Don’t rely on making money off of paid mods that require use others IP and then throw a giant tantrum garnering more Streisand attention to yourself that you’re making money off of paid mods using other people’s IP by publicly throwing a tantrum disrespecting the wishes of a reasonable request by the developer that says “Don’t make a paid mod for our game but here’s an alternative so you can still make money but still respect our developers’ desire to keep mods free.”
Just a thought.
The RealVR mod does not include any files from the copyrighted games, therefore does not use anyone else’s IP. It obviously makes reference to the games’ copyrighted content, in order to inform the public of what games it works with. Basically the same concept as an aftermarket addon to a device that is not licensed by the original equipment manufacturer, similar to something like a non-Apple accessory for an iPhone.
Here’s the thing, he and the other modders that are doing this are very much so running a fine line here. They’re modifying the game’s code, sure it’s in memory, but it’s their code they’re modifying to get things to work. It’s not just relying on using existing API calls that are open for them to use. Just because they’re not modifying the files on disk vs modifying in-memory doesn’t mean they’re not using their IP, they certainly are and there’s precedent that this type of action falls under the DMCA.
Take in point that Riot and Bungie and many other companies have DMCA’ed and sued cheat makers and hey those guys were also just selling mods for their games. They also weren’t selling any files from their copyrighted games either they were just selling a framework to inject their software into their games. So question is are you also saying that Riot and Bungie are also DMCA sue-happy people who are Debbie downers that are preventing coders from making money?
Your simplistic, it’s just a phone case, isn’t analogous here.
Don’t get me wrong, IP law is tricky and IANAL but again, when a company politely asks you to respect their ToS and not sell a mod using their IP and you throw a tantrum and manage to piss off your community, well good luck buddy.
On the other hand, I see modders getting burned out and practically abused by the gaming community.
As much as I love free game mods, some of these mods are massive multi year efforts that are practically a game themselves.
I can’t begrudge them wanting to make a couple bucks. I don’t like it…
I do donate to some mods that I particularly love, but I can’t realistically donate to every mod I use.
I can fucking begrudge them. If they don’t like to don’t fucking make it or share it.
You can and are free to make art for the sake of your own enjoyment. But fuck off if you feel like your entitled to get paid for working off the back of someone else’s effort just because you wasted your own time on it.
If you wanted to make money then go make your own thing for that purpose.
No one is entitled to get paid for their efforts. And no one is entitled to be allowed to make money off someone else’s labor.
Two brain cells rubbed together should make it really obvious that wasting years of your life on something someone else made to try to make money is a bad idea.
We all take a risk when we do something new and hope to make enough money to make it all worth it. No short cuts.
Except the entire the reason he got DMCA’d was because he was using c2077 modding tools to create said mod… So either you’re wrong, project red is wrong, or someone else is lying.
If what you said was true then none of these companies would have nothing to stand on, it’s simply its own standalone project that happens to work with these games… Except I think we all know that’s not the truth.
I think you really don’t know what you’re talking about. The mod is not unique to Cyberpunk, it supports several dozen other completely unrelated games with the same installer. I played Dark Souls III and Elden Ring on it, and it was pretty fuckin’ rad. So I’m pissed that these DMCA trolls are killing something awesome. But I still have my copy of the mod so I can continue to use it on the games that don’t get substantially changed with updates anyway.
I don’t think you know either, neither of us can confirm with certainty that he did not use Project Reds tools to built his integration. Key word being integration there.
It might be a completely standalone Installer so that he can keep you trapped in his ecosystem and on a subscription based service, but that has no relation at all to whether or not his program makes use of the tools project red offers to allow these integrations.
If they touch project reds tools at all to give you a good vr experience, then as much as it sucks, they are beholden to project reds rules. More obviously I’m bias as fuck and hate the idea that someone would force others to pay for a mod, especially one adding such a massive QoL feature to beloved games. But hey, if it comes out that he didn’t touch any of said tools at all, then he’ll be fine anyways. The dmca notices will go away and he’ll be free to continue being a drama queen about something else :).
“Hurtig their profits” isnt rhe point
Earning money on an IP he doesnt own, is the point…
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. a guy develops a mod that makes more people want to play the game that it depends on. he wants a few bucks so he can keep developing mods. He’s not hurting the sales of the product that his mod depends on.
nothing is stopping someone else from developing a free alternative
I’m not a fan of paid mods personally and would probably never buy them, but I also think these copyright claims are crappy and seem baseless to me. What he sold was his own original code. He should be free to sell it and let people decide if they want to spend money on it. That may break the ToS of these companies, but ToS are not laws.
Agreed.
I understand the IP issues around marketing but not the entitlement of people who think it’s okay to demand that they be given it for free.
The developer still has to eat and live. If they choose to work for money that’s literally one of the most universal things that people do on this planet. It’s ridiculous and immature to demand otherwise.
Why on god’s green earth would you use this kind of skills, as a volunteer, on IP that doesn’t belong to you? Why would you take out the gun, load it, and point it directly at your own foot.
Now the guy claims he’s being attacked, which kind of answers my question. The reason is probably poor mental health.
I don’t get why modders shouldn’t be allowed to ask for money. Do players just want people to work for free? Why should the game developers get to set the rules when mods often contain no content/IP from the game devs?
Because in most cases they can only do the thing they do, because another company invested millions in order to make, release, promote and support the game. Without their work, the modders would have nothing to mod. Because working out a licensing deal with every modder to split the revenue is a lot of work and most mods won’t get played much anyways, it isn’t worth the hassle. So in order to accommodate the community and keep their game active for longer, the terms are modding is allowed and even encouraged. But the other side of the bargain is that the mods can’t be sold. And usually the company reserves the right to outright ban mods using legal means. For example when people mod in far right extremism the company doesn’t want to get associated with.
Now there is a gray area where people donate to modders or even pay outright for modders to build certain things. This is usually just fine, as long as the mod is also available for free. People aren’t paying for the mod, they are paying for the dev time, which is totally fine.
But this modder specifically put access to his mods behind his Patreon. Sure technically you could subscribe for a month, get the mod and then stop the subscription. But that’s legally still a pay wall and in practice the mod needs to be updated often to keep working.
So it’s pretty simple in this case, the modder was asked to stop putting the mods behind a pay wall, he didn’t, so he got a cease and desist. Usually I’m all for the little man and against the large companies, but in this case the terms were pretty clear and the modder violated them.
Now we could have a more general discussion about how and if modders should be compensated for their time. But I feel that’s a bit beyond this single case.
Somehow none of this is a problem in sim racing, where plenty of paid mods exist just fine.
I’m ready for someone to try explaining how sim racing is totally unlike other games.
Probably because those are the terms that the company whose product they’re modding set out for them.
CDPR has opted not to implement a mod marketplace though. The expectation there is that all mods are free for all.
No one has said anything about a ‘mod marketplace’. None of sim games I know have a ‘mod marketplace’, so it’s unclear where you pulled it from or what it has to do with anything.
But have these companies indicated that their branding shouldn’t be used to advertise 3rd party software?
The “mod” in question isn’t even specific to that game, it’s just one game being used to advertise the software.
So computer games in general should not exist, because they rely on an OS that other people invested millions into?
The licence involves with the os, the tooling, the development environments explictedly allow for these things.
You can not be this fucking stupid can you?
If you make something you get to dictate how others use it, if you choose to have it be free and open that’s your choice. Just as it is if you wish for it to be restricted. It’s common fucking courtesy to not steal.
Modders cant make what they make with out the assets and game. They are using someone else’s property.
For example thats the entire fucking crux of things like say OpenMW vs Tamriel rebuilt. One is a standalone product that doesn’t reuse assets or has any dependencies on Bethesda assets. While the other reuses them all over the place.
OpenMW could charge for their product. It’s worthless with out the game, but still is entirely a functional standalone thing. The other literally can’t function with out someone else’s assets.
Where is this theft you’re talking about?
And you can make mods that include 0 code from the original game. It’s actually not difficult. The fact that they modify the game in memory has no bearing on copyright.
Binary patching has been a thing in the emulator/rom scene for as long as I can remember precisely because it’s a means to distribute mods without distributing IP the modder doesn’t own. Some of the takes here are absolutely wacko.
Yeah, I’m not gonna lie this almost feels like astroturfing. Straight up piracy is seen as more favorable than a mod creator getting paid for their work, it’s nuts.
Your argument is that his work relies on the work of others. But many people’s jobs rely on others, with or without their consent. Someone who works at a travel agency relies on nice destinations existing to send people to. Tour guides don’t need consent from an architect to stop and point outside their building.
Note that people will still need to buy the game to play the mod.
They do need permission from the building owner to bring people inside to look at it though. And that usually involves paying them.
Yes but in this context, the building owner is the person who bought the game.
It would be like the architect who drew the plans for your home getting a court order to seize your home because you installed extra cabinets that were not on his plans.
In germany we have the “Architektenurheberrecht”.
Architectural copyright (Architektenurheberrecht) protects an architect’s original intellectual and creative achievements, including designs, plans, and completed buildings, provided they possess a sufficient level of originality (Schöpfungshöhe).
Architects can, and have, use this to deny changes to such buildings or claim injunctive relief, removal of the infringement, or financial damages.
Installing extra cabinets would most likely not be enough to seize the house, but if he can convince a judge that it will sufficient change his art he could get a order to have them removed and the original space restored again.
Not sure if this is germany only, but it shows that every bullshit is possible when it comes to laws.
I’m surprised and also not really.
It’s exactly the same line of thinking where someone else is given more rights over a thing than the person who owns it.
Yeah exactly. It’s crazy that people think it’s OK for game developers to have a say in what mods you can apply to your own legally purchased game.
They don’t say anything against applying or installing the mod to the game, at least not in this case, but against making money with their IP. This should not be mixed together.
Just because the terms are clear doesn’t mean the terms are fair.
I don’t get why the game publishers don’t just fucking employ the guy to do it officially if they’re going to get pissy about it.
He made a VR mod for the game and they are suing him? Kiss my ass. He is the true cyberpunk.
Joining in on subscription based monetization is being Cyberpunk? I think that applies more to the anonymous person who released Link’s Awakening DX HD.
Idk the real cyberpunk move would have been putting it up and taking donations which if I understand correctly CD Projekt was going to allow him to still do.
They just didn’t want him straight selling it. Which is pretty fair honestly. He should have just made it up for donations and I bet if he had done that he would have gotten a pretty decent amount of donations all at once because it was getting so much publicity.
He’s selling a VR mode for the game.
How much VR does the mod even give? Like is it just being able to look around in complete 3D or do you also have the ability to manipulate the world with your hands? I have found many options to do the former and they don’t cost a dime, but I have yet to see anyone mod in the capabilities of being able to do more than simply move your head around to look at the game world.
I don’t know. I don’t have the mod.
I haven’t even seen any actual game play using the mod.
Just wanted to point out that the bone of contention as far as the dev is concerned isn’t that he made mods, but that he was actively charging money for them/using the name of their product to advertise the mod.
Luke Ross and his mods suck.
Probably, but that doesn’t really matter to the discussion of whether it should be allowed
When will people learn to do these kinds of things anonymously?
This guy wanted to make money from this mod and put it behind a paywall, that’s the only reason it got taken down.
This seems like a good idea, but a related question I’ve been wondering about is, what is the best way to anonymously run a software project facing this type of threat model, when you also want that software to be accessible to people? Does anyone know about any tips or resources for this? Is there some kind of darknet github? How do you do social media or collect donations/payment? Also, are there any good examples of projects that did this right?
Realistically impossible. If you want to actually make any real amount of money, have any real reach or have an actually functional product.
Which end of the day is the entire point for the assholes pay walling mods. They arnt part of the community they are trying to profit off the community.
A donation jar, a side patreon, merch there are endless ways to monitize your work. But trying to do it in the shadows just because you know your being a shit stain, is never goanna work out well.
No one’s forcing you to share your mod, if you think you deserve money or you won’t release it. Then just don’t release it.
Paid for mods have never, will never, and can never. Be a good idea or healthy for a modding community.
I feel like there are also other potential reasons to want to publish software anonymously though, even if monetization is not the goal. For instance, to keep it game related, there have been plenty of noncommercial fan projects that get shut down mainly just because the companies that own the IP are run by assholes.
How comes paid mods work out fine in sim racing then?
Assetto Corsa has tons of paid mods, along with tons of free mods, and the game developer Kunos is one of very few profitable game devs in sim racing. Why haven’t paid mods ruined the modding scene and bankrupted the company?
It’s not about bankrupcy, it’s about setting rules about their property. Some rights are enshrined in laws; derivative works are fair use. are mods fair use? nobody knows. but not if you charge for it, that requires licensing. no one wants to see precision laws being written about this, so everyone has to play by the developer’s rules. realistically that guy wants money from CDPR assets and CDPR said no you can’t do that.
Kunos giving modders the right to use their name freely does not mean CDPR has to. That’s what holding an IP means, you set the rules. and CDPR says if you use our name it cannot be paywalled media.
The parent comment says: “Paid for mods have never, will never, and can never. Be a good idea or healthy for a modding community.” So how does this follow from what you wrote? Sounds like it depends on the particular dev and game whether paid mods are a good idea or not.
Because they exist in a grey area of copyright. It’s not precisely defined, and so it’s a honor system.
Paid mods, simply by existing, threatens the honor system. You keep touting Kunos and profits. what relevance is profits in this? Honoring CDPR’s wishes and applauding Kunos’ leniency still work in this system. What is not is someone pointing at that generosity and demand that it is the default. Those paid mods threaten to put other game modders existence into legal jeopardy because people who keep arguing just because one company is generous other companies must also give away their rights.
now that it is involving dmca if pursued further it’s write new laws or court case.
So your answer to why paid mods can’t exist is because CDPR made it so.
Paid mods, simply by existing, threatens the honor system.
Those paid mods threaten to put other game modders existence into legal jeopardy
Threaten what exactly? They don’t ‘threaten’ jack if CDPR say they’re okay with mods. You use circular logic in your argument.
I’m not an expert, but I2P and Tor should allow people to host things anonymously.
Monero can be used as an anonymous payment method.
CDPR really likes to shoot themselves in the leg, meanwhile Dota and DayZ 🤑
Neither of those was a paid mod though.
So does anyone have a version of this we can download still?
