This is nonsense. You describe a situation where we are not allowed to ask or expect anything of our leaders lest we be deemed selfish. Where we are not allowed to fight for a better society since doing so would just be impractical. Should our forebears have decided that to fight against racism in a fundamentally racist society was impractical, that to fight against homophobia in a fundamentally homophobic society was impractical? If that’s your idea of revolution count me out.
This is nonsense. You describe a situation where we are not allowed to ask or expect anything of our leaders lest we be deemed selfish
The ability of leadership to exercise exigency or practicality does not make them immune to critique or assessment; in fact when we do away with the distracting idealism, we open the path towards a more competent and rigorous application of constructive critique that actually cares about results rather than the appearance of propriety
Should our forebears have decided that to fight against racism in a fundamentally racist society was impractical, that to fight against homophobia in a fundamentally homophobic society was impractical?
Are you under the impression none of those movements engaged in pragmatism or the practical application of theory? You think they weren’t shooting from one adaptive strategy to the next, you think they were all squeaky clean angels without a problematic bone in their bodies?
You mention my “idea of revolution”, I wonder at yours
As far as I can tell, you’re not actually saying anything in this comment. What is “exigency and practicality” in this case? What would be the “more competend and rigorous application of constructive critique”?
As far as I can tell, it’s pretty easy to figure out; first (unlike the scolds in that thread) recognize the left isn’t to blame for Covid denialism; second, elevate the right of remote participation as a universal expectation (something most VTuber groups have figured out) while maintaining the right of leadership and members to organize in certain contexts (particularly outreach) without constant referral to hazmat protocols
And third recognizing the fight over Covid awareness has been temporarily lost due to the sheer nonexistence of organized leftist counter-messaging
All subject to constant reassessment and adaptation as conditions improve or worsen
while maintaining the right of leadership and members to organize in certain contexts (particularly outreach) without constant referral to hazmat protocols
Leadership and cadres (or at the very least leadership) should be expected to take basic precautions, so that disabled people can participate non-remotely without putting themselves at severe risk. I don’t see how this demand is any different from a demand for remote participation. It’s much easier for leadership to (for example) lead by example and wear masks, which would do a lot to promote COVID consciousness in orgs, than it is to implement actually effective remote participation in many cases.
Edit: you still haven’t said what “exigency and practicality” meant, so I can only assume you meant that “practicality” was leadership taking literally no COVID precautions, which is practical because… ???
while maintaining the right of leadership and members to organize in certain contexts (particularly outreach) without constant referral to hazmat protocols
Derisively referring to asking people to wear masks as “constant referral to hazmat protocols” is disingenuous.
As far as I can tell, it’s pretty easy to figure out
“I implied my point, it’s your fault for not being able to figure it out” isn’t an argument. Say what you mean, I’m not reading your mind.
It’s much easier for leadership to (for example) lead by example and wear masks
It’s also easier to alienate new or potential members due to the dominance of covid denialist narratives in social discourse, and that conundrum shouldn’t be met with its own denialism in turn
What’s needed far more urgently is not simply COVID consciousness in orgs but also COVID awareness among society at large, and that requires counter-messaging and large-scale media organizing to pull off, which is why a focus on remote participation should be seen as a crucial tide over until said conditions improve
Then the power of example through masking will regain the valence you’re looking for
It’s also easier to alienate new or potential members due to the dominance of covid denialist narratives in social discourse, and that conundrum shouldn’t be met with its own denialism in turn
If seeing people wearing masks alienates new participants, those are not participants you want. They would functionally be wreckers. This is blatant tailism.
I’m not talking about dedicated anti-maskers, I’m clearly talking about the average maskless Joe who thru ignroance or inattention is liable to confuse your org for a health support group rather than an instrument to wield political power, in that scenario it’s not tailism you’d be facing, it’s irrelevance
…Unless that maskless Joe was already primed by sensationalized but accurate accounts of long covid, a Joe who wonders whether the aches and pains he feels daily are the results of the ravages of covid, suddenly a masked org isn’t a barrier to entry, but a cultural signal that tells that Joe “these people have their heads on straight”
I’m clearly talking about the average maskless Joe who thru ignroance or inattention is liable to confuse your org for a health support group rather than an instrument to wield political power
I think this isn’t accurate. Your claim is that someone would go to a meeting and just because the organizers are wearing masks, assume that they walked into the wrong one? Or are you dismissively categorizing (in the mind of the so-called “average Joe”) people who wear masks as unable, unwilling, or unworthy of wielding political power?
You do understand it’s not tailism if you’re actively engaged in a campaign to shift public sentiment for the purpose of aligning your orgs aims with a newly widened pool of people
Or did you think I was just bullshitting when I wrote these words?
What’s needed far more urgently is not simply COVID consciousness in orgs, but also COVID awareness among society at large, and that requires counter-messaging and large-scale media organizing to pull off
Nah, I’m cogent enough to recognize there are real solutions to problems
There’s no united left media ecosystem that can provide a counternarrative to the dual threats of covid denialism and liberal post-pandemic assurances, orgs serious about combating these scourges should be collating long covid data and testimony and sensationalizing it at arenas of media virality like town halls and school board meetings, a mirror strategy to the right’s anti-woke crusades at local level during the Biden years…that’s just the start
Meanwhile, someone screaming about how they can’t take leftists seriously because they don’t mask is the definition of inaction inertia
I have no clue what you’re quoting from but okay, I can get on board.
But again you can’t take any criticism and characterize it as “delusional wokescolds” or hysterical screaming. What most of us have dealt with are self-described leftists and leftist orgs having a pretty good position on Covid and Covid precautions through 2020 and then deciding to take up the cdc line that Covid is over and masks are unnecessary sometime after vaccinations become widespread. This situation has only become worse. Are we not allowed to vent on a Reddit post? Are we not allowed to criticize those who at one time stood with us but showed themselves to be unreliable once things became difficult?
I was quoting myself in response to your claim I was advocating inaction
Are we not allowed to vent on a Reddit post?
I’ve masked for almost six years straight and have caught covid four times, if you want to vent go ahead, but I’m done with useless reddit threads, I refuse to be demoralized by bullshit like that, there are solutions to these problems and at this late date I care only about results and wins
yeah so I don’t really understand your position. You say you don’t advocate inaction yet above you say the left can’t organize around health-friendly lines? Which to me implies inaction on the Covid issue - why I accused you of advocating inaction.
But in any case I think that’s a bad attitude towards criticism. Venting is not in opposition to action, nor is feeling demoralized. If you’re sick of it that’s one thing, but people just trying to commiserate about a bad situation should be supported if anything, not torn down and accused of being delusional and useless
Who the hell is arguing the left’s failure has been not reorganizing society? Granted I hardly went through the full thread, but nearly all the comments I read were broadly in line with complaints I hear and make among the left that still masks - that many leftists and left wing orgs have essentially abandoned the Covid issue. Even the initial comment you quoted and criticized makes this criticism - the failure of left wing leaders is not their failure to reorganize society but their failure to hold to what should be left wing principles, instead following the cdc into Covid denialism
This is nonsense. You describe a situation where we are not allowed to ask or expect anything of our leaders lest we be deemed selfish. Where we are not allowed to fight for a better society since doing so would just be impractical. Should our forebears have decided that to fight against racism in a fundamentally racist society was impractical, that to fight against homophobia in a fundamentally homophobic society was impractical? If that’s your idea of revolution count me out.
The ability of leadership to exercise exigency or practicality does not make them immune to critique or assessment; in fact when we do away with the distracting idealism, we open the path towards a more competent and rigorous application of constructive critique that actually cares about results rather than the appearance of propriety
Are you under the impression none of those movements engaged in pragmatism or the practical application of theory? You think they weren’t shooting from one adaptive strategy to the next, you think they were all squeaky clean angels without a problematic bone in their bodies?
You mention my “idea of revolution”, I wonder at yours
As far as I can tell, you’re not actually saying anything in this comment. What is “exigency and practicality” in this case? What would be the “more competend and rigorous application of constructive critique”?
As far as I can tell, it’s pretty easy to figure out; first (unlike the scolds in that thread) recognize the left isn’t to blame for Covid denialism; second, elevate the right of remote participation as a universal expectation (something most VTuber groups have figured out) while maintaining the right of leadership and members to organize in certain contexts (particularly outreach) without constant referral to hazmat protocols
And third recognizing the fight over Covid awareness has been temporarily lost due to the sheer nonexistence of organized leftist counter-messaging
All subject to constant reassessment and adaptation as conditions improve or worsen
Leadership and cadres (or at the very least leadership) should be expected to take basic precautions, so that disabled people can participate non-remotely without putting themselves at severe risk. I don’t see how this demand is any different from a demand for remote participation. It’s much easier for leadership to (for example) lead by example and wear masks, which would do a lot to promote COVID consciousness in orgs, than it is to implement actually effective remote participation in many cases.
Edit: you still haven’t said what “exigency and practicality” meant, so I can only assume you meant that “practicality” was leadership taking literally no COVID precautions, which is practical because… ???
Derisively referring to asking people to wear masks as “constant referral to hazmat protocols” is disingenuous.
“I implied my point, it’s your fault for not being able to figure it out” isn’t an argument. Say what you mean, I’m not reading your mind.
It’s also easier to alienate new or potential members due to the dominance of covid denialist narratives in social discourse, and that conundrum shouldn’t be met with its own denialism in turn
What’s needed far more urgently is not simply COVID consciousness in orgs but also COVID awareness among society at large, and that requires counter-messaging and large-scale media organizing to pull off, which is why a focus on remote participation should be seen as a crucial tide over until said conditions improve
Then the power of example through masking will regain the valence you’re looking for
If seeing people wearing masks alienates new participants, those are not participants you want. They would functionally be wreckers. This is blatant tailism.
I’m not talking about dedicated anti-maskers, I’m clearly talking about the average maskless Joe who thru ignroance or inattention is liable to confuse your org for a health support group rather than an instrument to wield political power, in that scenario it’s not tailism you’d be facing, it’s irrelevance
…Unless that maskless Joe was already primed by sensationalized but accurate accounts of long covid, a Joe who wonders whether the aches and pains he feels daily are the results of the ravages of covid, suddenly a masked org isn’t a barrier to entry, but a cultural signal that tells that Joe “these people have their heads on straight”
I think this isn’t accurate. Your claim is that someone would go to a meeting and just because the organizers are wearing masks, assume that they walked into the wrong one? Or are you dismissively categorizing (in the mind of the so-called “average Joe”) people who wear masks as unable, unwilling, or unworthy of wielding political power?
Great news, tailism works!
You do understand it’s not tailism if you’re actively engaged in a campaign to shift public sentiment for the purpose of aligning your orgs aims with a newly widened pool of people
Or did you think I was just bullshitting when I wrote these words?
There’s pragmatism and there’s inaction and you seem to be arguing for the latter when it comes to anti-Covid organizing
Nah, I’m cogent enough to recognize there are real solutions to problems
Meanwhile, someone screaming about how they can’t take leftists seriously because they don’t mask is the definition of inaction inertia
I have no clue what you’re quoting from but okay, I can get on board.
But again you can’t take any criticism and characterize it as “delusional wokescolds” or hysterical screaming. What most of us have dealt with are self-described leftists and leftist orgs having a pretty good position on Covid and Covid precautions through 2020 and then deciding to take up the cdc line that Covid is over and masks are unnecessary sometime after vaccinations become widespread. This situation has only become worse. Are we not allowed to vent on a Reddit post? Are we not allowed to criticize those who at one time stood with us but showed themselves to be unreliable once things became difficult?
I was quoting myself in response to your claim I was advocating inaction
I’ve masked for almost six years straight and have caught covid four times, if you want to vent go ahead, but I’m done with useless reddit threads, I refuse to be demoralized by bullshit like that, there are solutions to these problems and at this late date I care only about results and wins
yeah so I don’t really understand your position. You say you don’t advocate inaction yet above you say the left can’t organize around health-friendly lines? Which to me implies inaction on the Covid issue - why I accused you of advocating inaction.
But in any case I think that’s a bad attitude towards criticism. Venting is not in opposition to action, nor is feeling demoralized. If you’re sick of it that’s one thing, but people just trying to commiserate about a bad situation should be supported if anything, not torn down and accused of being delusional and useless
Of course you don’t understand my position, you completely misread my point
I said the left does not have the power to organize SOCIETY along health-friendly lines, are socialists in charge of the CDC?
Who the hell is arguing the left’s failure has been not reorganizing society? Granted I hardly went through the full thread, but nearly all the comments I read were broadly in line with complaints I hear and make among the left that still masks - that many leftists and left wing orgs have essentially abandoned the Covid issue. Even the initial comment you quoted and criticized makes this criticism - the failure of left wing leaders is not their failure to reorganize society but their failure to hold to what should be left wing principles, instead following the cdc into Covid denialism