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Lmao mac elitists
Windows is shit for most things. Especially shit for development.
I think this person actually wants to run linux, but they are using Mac as a test case.
They mentioned “install an alternative operating system” - which on hardware sold for Windows very much implies Linux.
But if Linux is a no, and even macos is a no - which is from a “big proper company” with support agreements and everything - then the company is obviously a lost cause who are set on windows for life for all time.
Meanwhile, the people at Red Hat are left asking, “are we a joke to you?”
I think this person actually wants to run linux, but they are using Mac as a test case.
They mentioned “install an alternative operating system” - which on hardware sold for Windows very much implies Linux.
But if Linux is a no, and even macos is a no - which is from a “big and proper organisation” with support agreements and everything - then the company is obviously a lost cause who are dead-set on windows for life for all time.
I’m just replying to see if you copy the same response, for science.
It’s what happens if you submit a comment and fall for the egregious lie that is Lemmy telling you it didn’t go through
I think this person actually wants to run linux, but they are using Mac as a test case.
They mentioned “install an alternative operating system” - which on hardware sold for Windows very much implies Linux.
But if Linux is a no, and even macos is a no - which is from a “big and proper organisation” with support agreements and everything - then the company is obviously a lost cause who are dead-set on windows for life for all time.
I’m just replying to see if you copy the same response, for science.
I think this person actually wants to run linux, but they are using Mac as a test case.
They mentioned “install an alternative operating system” - which on hardware sold for Windows very much implies Linux.
But if Linux is a no, and even macos is a no - which is from a “big and proper organisation” with support agreements and everything - then the company is obviously a lost cause who are dead-set on windows for life for all time.
Why would you not be very clear about this right at the start of the interview process so you’re not wasting everybody’s (including your own) time? If this is one of your absolute show-stoppers, then say so up front and we can either work with IT to get you what you want, or decline and move on to the next candidate.
Are you talking to the employer or the applicant, because it works both ways?
Windows is the PC operating system used by almost every organization. If you aren’t willing to work with it, you really need to be clear about that up front.
It’s like trying to get a job as a mechanic at an auto shop and telling them after the interview you refuse to work on Toyotas.
This is clearly in a field where that’s not true
“I only work on carbureted engines.”
Fair point, and taken. Interviews are a two-way street: the candidate should ask about everything that matters to them, and the company should ask about everything important they want.
To avoid situations like this, it’s best not to assume anything unless you ask first. Windows is the de facto standard in business, yes, but not everywhere and not in every industry.
If your work OS matters to you enough that you will pass on the job if you can’t pick, then you should ask. I would not want to hire someone who will be miserable in the job. And as a middle manager I probably don’t have enough pull to make an exception just for this guy anyway.
Rock stars play by their own rules and they will get whatever they ask for. For the rest of us, we just have to take what we’re issued.
Mac?
Mac has a Unix-like command line, but is otherwise shitty to use.
Not just unix-like, MacOS is UNIX certified,
Windows has a really good shell too but it’s not about terminal. Both macs and windows are pretty awful dev machines.
What’s so shitty? I’ve been using Linux for over 20 years, and Mac for work over 5. I have my terminal under f12 (iterm2/Konsole), I have my ide on one desktop, my calendar, my email and my slack on a another and a browser on another. I barely notice any difference. Honestly I don’t mind it at all. In fact if my desktop died and had to replace it, I might get a Mac mini instead.
Also use Mac for work and personal. But I spend most of my time in neovim and the browser, so tbh I don’t really care what I use. I just like that I can answer texts from my Mac via iMessage. I haven’t tried them, but I think there are some i3 style window managers for macOS. That’s the next thing I would explore if I wanted a more Linux like experience.
I started doing my Xcode builds in CI, so I guess I’m not really tied to Mac anymore. In its current state, I’m more attached to the hardware than the software.
Codemagic? I’ve made some pokes at using that for iOS builds with middling luck.
I have been using Linux since the 10th grade. But for work I’m using a Mac. Because I’m not only engineering, but doing other things related to work, having a Mac is more productive and practical.
but doing other things related to work, having a Mac is more productive and practical.
I used to do the same, but lately every office thing is browser based, and I find the Linux and Mac experiences are identical.
The web version of Office is so scuffed. I wouldn’t wish trying to do any serious Excel work with the web version on my worst enemy.
That’s fair. I also wouldn’t wish serious Excel work on my worst enemy. But I understand someone has to do it, or the nightmare realm could escape the cell borders.
That extends beyond just terminal but completely agree that their stock experience is… not great.
Big Mac
I dev every workday on Windows 11 and I don’t get why people feel like it’s awful to work on? I dunno what everyone else is doing but it’s basically just switching between the IDE, Slack and the browser. The OS never seems to be an issue for me. My only real gripe is that even I click update and shutdown at the end of the day, it updates and restarts.
Same for my colleagues using a Mac.
I’d be more bothered about using Teams over Slack
You have to install extra crap to get the terminal to work like unix and I always had to fight with it to install things. Not worth the time. Maybe if you don’t need a terminal though?
You install git and you get git bash that works great in the Windows terminal. That’s something you do once. I use the terminal daily, not an issue at all.
I never had to do anything on my Mac it just works every time
I think a lot of it comes down to the build team.
We have a very strict build, and while there is bloatware I could do without, they’ve always been great about handing out new machines, so we generally stay ahead of it.
The issue I run into is that at our company, I’m very much “That guy”, who needs all the exceptions and special software.
While they’ve created some AD groups for me that provide most of what I need, transferring to a new laptop is a major procedure as I never know what new restrictions have been put in place that I’ll need exceptions for. It’s a constant battle between security and having the tools I need to do the job. I always have at least three laptops, one that I’m using, one I’m working on setting up, and the old one I can’t let go of.
All that being said, yes, win 11 is an absolute pig compared to other options, once my machine is dialed in, I really don’t mind the environment.
Course, it helps that my lab shares space with the end user IT support team, so all I have to do is call over my shoulder to have something fixed.
I always have at least three laptops, one that I’m using, one I’m working on setting up, and the old one I can’t let go of.
You sound like you need some VMs. Particularly for whatever is on that old laptop.
Teams has recently decided to stop working on any browser except edge. I don’t know if this is intentional (at least chromium should work similarly) or if it’s a wayland thing, but I’m just assuming malice since webrtc works fine in all other instances.
Fuck all of microslop on principle.
I use teams in Vivaldi with wayland. No problems beyond standard teams jank.
It’s slow, it’s unstable, it’s slow, it’s hard to customise, it’s slow, it’s bloated, it’s slow, it’s counter intuitive. Did I also mention that it’s slow?
Personally I’ve never experienced any performance issues with it, seems fast and responsive to me.
Same here. I primarily use WSL2 as my dev environment. Everything outside that is native apps for collab and tooling.
Windows can add some complications as a dev, especially in the corporate environment when really strict group policies are implemented that stop Devs from installing or configuring systems as they need.
One company I worked at remained on Windows LTSC for security reasons, and a lot of Devs that were working with Java hit a snag if for whatever reason an IDE they were using really wanted a system environment variable configured a certain way and it would straight up ignore user environment variables. They would be restricted from basically being able to configure anything without getting IT to remote on and make the changes for them.
I was forced to use a Mac for the first time years ago for work, I still hate working on a Mac but I can’t deny how much more flexible it can be compared to working in a Windows environment that is locked down.
God damn powershell. I use my terminal daily! More than daily even!
I never use Powershell and I use the terminal daily.
Dude how many qualifications do you have that you can turn down a job offer in this economy over such a rather minor inconvenience?!
Dude, that’s like hiring a truck driver and telling him his lorry will be pulled by 4 horses.
Your chariot awaits! It’s an actual chariot
If they want to pay me to deliver stuff on a unicycle, I’ll be delivering stuff on a unicycle. Do I want to ride a unicycle? Depends on the pay.
It is a mistake to see oneself as a mercenary in this way. We should all be the happier if objectionable jobs were harder to staff.
Sure, but it’s difficult to classify which jobs are objectionable and what the price should be for someone to do them anyway.
Yet I work for a very successfully (we have too much work and don’t even advertise for it) small company and we all use windows computers as software engineers. We use C# .Net Entity Framework, SQL, GraphQL, React Typescript or WinForms.
We have some large clients that most people ok earth have heard of.
Have you considered that you might have too much work simply because these tools are inefficient?
Eh C# GUI development is quite productive. I don’t think you’d get such a pleasant experience on Linux.
Nobody thinks you can’t do software engineering on windows. It’s just worse.
“Minor” inconvenience is not having a coffee machine in the dining room, it’s nothing like the culture of incompetence that permeates organization that are that severely vendor-locked.
Exactly, it’s a serious red flag.
If you’ve currently got a decent job, then you can afford to be suuuuper picky.
The best time to find a job is when you have a job.
That isn’t minor at all. If I’m using a tool all day, it needs to be something that I’m comfortable using. Forcing me to use Windows is like taking my office chair and replacing it with a chair that has a lumpy cushion and broken casters.
I understand putting up with a shitty job situation because you need the money, but this is certainly not a “minor inconvenience”.
I can say also as a senior engineer, I would never turn down another o ly because of this. It’s not my software I’m making, it’s the company. It’s not my things. If they want me to code on a pentium 3 I’ll happily do it, it’s their money. They want me to waste it on that, that’s on them.
Yea, but some of us would rather choose to enjoy the work. Paycheck and pleasure doing the job is where it’s at.
Does the policy prevent you from installing a virtual machine? Or you could install docker and do everything via ssh into your container.
I had to do that once but the company wanted me to use a Mac over my own Linux. I can’t stand anymore to be forced to use specific platforms to do my job. It’s like going to a car repair and demand the mechanic to change your tire using a plastic wrench.
I mean, it could make a difference if you had to use OS specyfic tools, but if you’re going to just code, use whatever you want.
Does anyone actually believe this post??? Because it reads like upvote farming.
The employer? Albert Einstein.
We had a new joiner quit on his first day because of this. Didn’t even get to eat the burrito he ordered :( So it definitely happens.
Not IT, but my dad said they lost a chemical engineering hire over this once, like 25 years ago.
Its posted in a humor sub soooo no
To be fair they tried posting it on the Linux community on .ml and there were so many upvotes and positive feedback that it crashed the server. So they had to post it again somewhere more balanced to limit the impact.
Not really. My employer provides win11 too, but I do over 60% of my job on debian machines running in hyper-v. (the other 40% are administrative tasks and work restricted environments)
I think that’s a tad excessive. Sure, Windows sucks, but it’s not my machine so I don’t give a shit. Now, if they expected me to bring my own machine and also insist that it’s Windows, I’ll get pissed off and refuse the offer. Their machine though? They can demand whatever they want, so long as I can actually do my job.
9/10 times it’s not Windows I’m fighting against when I’m unable to do my job, it’s the IT department not giving me admin rights over the right folders so I can’t even install Docker without spending 3 days with them to get the right permissions.
Personally I also would not quit/back out just from that, but “it’s not my machine” misses the point, IMO. It’s a device I’m expected to use ~40 hours a week. Windows fucking sucks. Using that trash for half of my waking hours sucks. Been there, done that, I hope to hell I never have to again.
The fuck are you doing in it?
I’m a software engineer and we use windows. 90% of my day is spent in Visual Studio Professional. The rest is split between chrome, outlook, teams, postman, and SQL server management studio.
I literally never go to the start menu. I have shortcut icons on the bar for everything I need.
I’m was working on software that doesn’t exclusively target windows. Windows is only a decent dev environment if you’re targeting nothing but Windows. Any other kind of development is a worse, potentially way worse experience than it is on Linux. Using docker on Windows is painful. Using git is painful. Using bash is painful. The list goes on forever.
In my experience with windows there’s just a slight lagginess everywhere. I’ve had full gaming PCs still feel laggy just in Vscode. It’s not bad but it’s a small pain point that I don’t want to experience for 40 hours a week.
You’re being paid to use the trash though
That doesn’t make it not suck. I’d much rather not hate my job.
I was part of a 4 person IT team managing the company’s Linux servers and infrastructure. I was given a Windows 8 laptop from CostCo. The other admins had Windows laptops but EVERYONE else had Mac laptops. I was the only Mac-centric admin so the engineers came to me for help but mostly I kept their servers running using MobaTek’s terminal app. I used the browser and mail client on the laptop but that’s was the extent of my win8 usage. Which I could have run the configuration management tool we ran (puppet). Jenkins and git were running on the Linux boxes. I had to fix the CEO’s admin’s PC 4 times to remove malware but the engineers and their macs were problem free except for bad keyboards which Apple fixed.
I think that depends a lot on what you’re expected to do. I’d write an email like this if I were expected to be an effective developer on a Windows system. I use Linux because I use vim, not the other way around. I can’t WSL for linux to use tmux or something and be nailed to one laptop screen, it just isn’t worth it. Besides the whacky clipboard problems, it’s just not sustainable to be permanently containerized in your host system IMO.
Now if you are using an "I"DE like vscode or something it’s maybe not so bad because it at least plays on windows. Gvim is trash, and the whole reason to really lean in to vim/nvim is to sew your development environment right to any other program you need.
IDK, there’s a dollar value beyond which I would not care, but it’s a gross amount.
Windows isn’t fit for software development unless you’re doing Windows specific stuff. Maybe you can get by with WSL or cygwyn or similar, but that’s just a bandaid to make the machine less windows. You’ll probably still have problems with like case folding and line endings.
As someone who does dev stuff on both windows and Linux, line endings have never been an issue. Are you using notepad or something?
I’ve only had to use wsl for some stuff only designed for *nix, like openresty (and lua in general).
One of the other guys is on Windows and we had to change a config in git to handle it. Not sure what he did on his end. I have vscode on a Mac. Some people at this place have been working since like the 90s and probably are using notepad.
Fully agree. The company also has stuff they have to deal with like compliance, fleet management, device trust etc that I admit is easier to comply with if you just say fuck it windows it is.
As long as I get local admin and WSL. If not I’d probably quit too
If they trust me to manage company and other companies server infra but not to manage my fucking laptop, they can get fucked.
Windows 11 has been a nightmare for me. Every time I leave the file browser open my fans start up like I’m doing something insensive. Mssms freezes constantly, visual studio freezes constantly. Switching between virtual desktops? Not without waiting 30 seconds. And finally, idk if this is a dell thing or a win11 thing but the “low power mode” that activates if my battery is at or below 10 percent, despite me turning off all battery saving settings I can find, makes my computer functionally useless. Programs don’t load, I can’t close or open anything. Like the whole point of low power mode is so you have a little more time to wrap up things before you can get to a charger. There’s no point to that if you set my PC so low power that it literally can’t even run the bloated ass OS on it. I hate it so fucking much.
Yeah I care about my machine as much as it has my stuff inside, if it is not mine…
I have to use Windows 11 on my work laptop. So I just put it in its own DMZ and don’t worry too much about it.
99% companies have been using Windows for the past 30 years. I would gladly accept any job using Windows, even more if they paid well. I hate Windows way more than everyone else, but being unemployed is worse nowadays.
You assume they don’t already have a job and we’re just looking for other opportunities. Not everyone is unemployed before they apply for other jobs. If anything that is a good time to look as it gives you stronger position to negotiate from.
In the overwhelming majority of situations you cannot begin the onboarding process with IT while still working for a previous employer. Especially at this level of software engineering that would run afoul of moonlighting policies.
is what your describing technically possible? sure. Is it even remotely probable? Absolutely not.
They would quit working at the old company before they start work at the new one. usually there wouldn’t be overlap.
Senior backend engineering definitely doesn’t see 99% windows adoption rate.
Yeah but a senior engineer would just use an old personal linux laptop from home, they wouldn’t even bother bitching about the employer issued machine.
How are they going to use a personal device when corporate policy locks that down?
They don’t use a personal laptop, and I’ve never heard of such thing for any company that has more than 10 employees. The security risk is huge
I haven’t found a company that enforces windows of everyone. Seems ridiculous. I would sign the contract then simply require a Mac because I don’t know how to use Windows. IT be dammed.
Smaller companies, maybe. But bigger companies will have a ‘Security and Compliance’ department which will force everyone to use a company-supported platform. It goes beyond OS too. Unapproved apps, even if you are allowed to install them, may not connect to company resources.
Managing centralized security and device management correctly on multiple OSes must be a nightmare. From EDRs to app and device provisioning.
You should do dev work in devcontainers anyway.
Not that it’s an excuse or that I’m happy with that, but I can totally understand why companies do that, and tbh I’d rather see a properly secured than have the option to run Linux.
But I’m biased, because I used to do Red Teamings, and the things I’ve seen…
You should do dev work in devcontainers anyway.
Devcontainers work for Visual Studio Code when developers are more than happy to click their way through running builds and debugging problems. But, as someone whose workflow is optimized for the command-line, they can fuck off.
for a senior engineer position though? That seems counterproductive. I would expect it of one of the entry levels or non-it but forcing a windows ecosystem on a development or engineering sector screams red flag to me.
A senior engineer obviously needs (and knows how to handle) considerably more access to their workstation and company IT infrastructure than the average employee. On the other hand, I’ve occasionally read complaints from IT security types about engineers being way to eager to install sketchy stuff.
There’s some truth to those complaints. I might need to try out several libraries and tools to see what works best for a certain use case. Is that new one with 15 stars on Github actually safe? Are all of its dependencies? How many developers perform a task like that in a sandbox? How many of those perform a thorough audit before taking it out of the sandbox?
Yeah but MacOS has all the same security and group policy controls as windows.
Yeah but managing it fucking sucks.
I recently quit a company that does. They hid that until after I accepted and started. I quit out of frustration after a couple weeks of having to listen the the fan all day due to their surveillance and telemetry running. They even disabled sleep mode, so you either had to leave that thing phoning home 24/7, or forcibly shut down every day. 10 minute boot time on a brand new laptop.
Can you explain this disabling sleep mode thing? What does having the thing awake while it’s closed even accomplish?
Clamshell mode. External monitor, lid closed. My issue was that I could not tell it to sleep when not in use, because their IT disabled sleep to ensure their corporate spyware was always running.
That’s the part I get, but what does having the corporate spyware running 24/7 accomplish? What kind of telemetry would they even get out of that other than ip/location, which isn’t all that interesting.
They say while using gmail.
It’s tagged “Inbox”, it looks like this is the recruiter’s POV.
Gmail is functional at what it sets out to do, which is send and receive email.
The sender is not expressing privacy concerns, they’re expressing functionality / utility concerns.
Fair enough, still seems silly as hell to me. Windows is perfectly functional for corporate, and even software development use as long as the team managing the image and standard settings at your workplace is competent.
Yeah, being able to customize everything to meet your preferred workflow etc with Linux is preferable.
Gmail is functional at what it sets out to do
it is not. it can’t even do such simple thing as sorting the inbox by the sender’s name. it may seem functional to people who never used real mail client and were brainwashed into accepting this as the only available ui, but it is really not.
And preferring yet another proprietary OS.
I still use gmail as my spam catcher/throwaway account
Odd to use it as part of job hunting though, which is the context in this image.
I use it at my “catch other people’s emails” account, tho so far I haven’t been quick enough on the draw to do cool stuff like slurping account creation tokens, goodie delivieries or stuff like that.
Better than outlook, no?
Sure, but kind of silly for someone who would take a stand against MS to the point of refusing a job to be happy with Google.
Then again, they also expressed they’d be happy with Apple/Mac
Their basis seems to not be corporate actions, but the usability of software.
They would probably have been happy with Windows 7.
why tf would you apply there
post the response after too - if they do
extremely based, I have no idea how any dev at my company tolerates windows.
in addition to how extremely slow and incapable the OS is in general,we have to submit tickets to run software because everything is installed through random .exes.
Lmao.
,we have to submit tickets to run software because everything is installed through random .exes.
You have to do that because your IT department doesn’t trust you. There’s no difference in danger between a dev with system access installing an exe or a DMG.
You have to do that because your IT department doesn’t trust you.
Nor should they.
Install Linux subsystem for Windows and you’re golden.
Hahahahaha! No. WSL is in no way a good substitute for a real Linux system. It’s better than nothing, but that’s about it.
Device management on Linux is next to impossible compared to windows or macs
That sounds like a skills issue. Once you know what you’re doing on Linux, managing devices on Windows is slightly less pleasurable than masturbating with a cheese grater.
What makes you think that?
