Comment I saw earlier today really drives home this image
Would you rather vote for someone who leaves things as they are, or someone who actively wants to make things worse and kill minorities?
Sorry that “leaves things alone” isn’t good enough for you and you’ll throw all the trans kids under the bus, but personally I don’t want Republicans in power so I’ll do what it takes to keep them out of power, even if that means I have to vote for a spineless Democrat
The way to deprogram this type of lib is to say, “cool, vote for the Democrats if you want, but remember, actual progress is built by organizing on the ground, outside of electoral politics.”
Who cares if these libs vote for Dems!? No communist party in America is trying to win bourgeois elections, so let them vote for Dems.
“You can vote for dems AND organize for the working class. One of those can actually introduce positive change.”
No use arguing they shouldn’t vote or should vote PSL. Their whole identity is attached to this behavior, so this triggers an ego defense mechanism, giving them motivation and purpose in further entrenching their liberalism.
Instead, belittle them for doing no organization whatsoever during a period of rapidly encroaching fascism. Mock them for devoting more time to arguing with internet tankies than for lifting a finger for the marginalized. Point out how smug they act for an action that takes 20 minutes a year and achieves nothing.
You have to be tired of losing before abandoning tactics that you have spent decades advocating, and they will remember this every time they eat shit and take L after L hyperfocusing on bourgeois electoral politics.
The difficulty is convincing them there is even an alternative to voting dem. Especially when if you ask them what they think and both say you can only vote for dems and any alternatives are just a waste. Especially when they fully admit the dems are useless
Remind them that during the onset of fascism, they did nothing but post and participate in the captured system.
If they claim you need to vote D to protect trans rights, ask them why they are not smuggling and distributing hormones. Same for immigrants, what are you doing to interfere with ICE deportations? Black lives matter?..probably not much to you since you’re disinterested in forming a community defense org. Believe science?..you must not be a true believer since you don’t do anything to distribute medical literature or publicize COVID data. Et cetera.
They only place this much emphasis on electoralism because they don’t do these things. Catharsis manifest.
Encourage them to do something, anything other than #vote or scream into the void. Their identity revolves around seeing themselves as good people™, we need to be weaponizing that into action. You are approximately as moral as a Republican if all you do is vote and complain. Vote for dems, the fuck if I care. As long as you are doing real, tangible things.
The way to deprogram this type of lib is to say, “cool, vote for the Democrats if you want, but remember, actual progress is built by organizing on the ground, outside of electoral politics.”
i don’t have experience arguing with american libs, but how would that be effective when they are trying to force you to vote for democrats? in my mind the better thing to do is to engage them in logic of electoral politics itself. “politicians don’t follow people who vote for them, they follow people that will maybe vote for them. if you are making your vote a guarantee for the democrats, then you’re just dooming minorities and trans kids yourself because you are making sure that the democrats can ignore you and chase the ‘reasonable republican’ instead of you and your policies.”
They are not trying to convince you to vote for democrats. They are convincing themselves that they are fighting the good fight. By defending voting for dems, they see themselves as a protector of the marginalized. Attacking that notion is questioning their identity as a good, caring person, which will only cause them to dig in.
Instead suggest that while voting for dems isn’t a bad idea per se, your goals would be better served by organizing and building other forms of dual power. This is an inoffensive alternative that indicates that you respect and share their values, while encouraging them to explore non-electoral options. Correct ideas can only be built through class struggle.
“politicians don’t follow people who vote for them, they follow people that will maybe vote for them. if you are making your vote a guarantee for the democrats, then you’re just dooming minorities and trans kids yourself because you are making sure that the democrats can ignore you and chase the ‘reasonable republican’ instead of you and your policies.”
This line of argument is counterproductive.
Our goal is not to get them to publicly hold positions for the sake of bourgeois politicians smelling that and moving left. Our goal is a system that liberates the marginalized. This cannot take hold through bourgeois elections. Capital must be overthrown, not convinced.
There are two dialectics, themselves in a dialectical relationship with one another:
democrats vs. republicans
reform vs. revolution
For them to come to the conclusion that revolution is necessary, they need to stop seeing change through the lense of elections. By encouraging them to get involved outside that system, they can begin to see how change can be enacted through their own hands. Only then can they drop the D vs. R. mindset. Class struggle is the only reliable path towards correct ideas.
Announce loudly that you do not care if they vote and for whom, and that their identity as a good, caring person is accepted if and only if they are doing something to organize outside of electoral politics. This encourages them to get involved, likely coming into IRL contact with influences more radical than themselves.
The trans kids are already under the bus. Voting Democrat keeps this under the bus. Voting Republican knee caps them before they get run over by the bus.
Now I have a radical idea: Fuck both of them and get the kids out from under the bus.
Comment I saw earlier today really drives home this image
The way to deprogram this type of lib is to say, “cool, vote for the Democrats if you want, but remember, actual progress is built by organizing on the ground, outside of electoral politics.”
Who cares if these libs vote for Dems!? No communist party in America is trying to win bourgeois elections, so let them vote for Dems.
“You can vote for dems AND organize for the working class. One of those can actually introduce positive change.”
No use arguing they shouldn’t vote or should vote PSL. Their whole identity is attached to this behavior, so this triggers an ego defense mechanism, giving them motivation and purpose in further entrenching their liberalism.
Instead, belittle them for doing no organization whatsoever during a period of rapidly encroaching fascism. Mock them for devoting more time to arguing with internet tankies than for lifting a finger for the marginalized. Point out how smug they act for an action that takes 20 minutes a year and achieves nothing.
You have to be tired of losing before abandoning tactics that you have spent decades advocating, and they will remember this every time they eat shit and take L after L hyperfocusing on bourgeois electoral politics.
The difficulty is convincing them there is even an alternative to voting dem. Especially when if you ask them what they think and both say you can only vote for dems and any alternatives are just a waste. Especially when they fully admit the dems are useless
Use their own rhetoric against these nihilists.
Remind them that during the onset of fascism, they did nothing but post and participate in the captured system.
If they claim you need to vote D to protect trans rights, ask them why they are not smuggling and distributing hormones. Same for immigrants, what are you doing to interfere with ICE deportations? Black lives matter?..probably not much to you since you’re disinterested in forming a community defense org. Believe science?..you must not be a true believer since you don’t do anything to distribute medical literature or publicize COVID data. Et cetera.
They only place this much emphasis on electoralism because they don’t do these things. Catharsis manifest.
Encourage them to do something, anything other than #vote or scream into the void. Their identity revolves around seeing themselves as good people™, we need to be weaponizing that into action. You are approximately as moral as a Republican if all you do is vote and complain. Vote for dems, the fuck if I care. As long as you are doing real, tangible things.
i don’t have experience arguing with american libs, but how would that be effective when they are trying to force you to vote for democrats? in my mind the better thing to do is to engage them in logic of electoral politics itself. “politicians don’t follow people who vote for them, they follow people that will maybe vote for them. if you are making your vote a guarantee for the democrats, then you’re just dooming minorities and trans kids yourself because you are making sure that the democrats can ignore you and chase the ‘reasonable republican’ instead of you and your policies.”
They are not trying to convince you to vote for democrats. They are convincing themselves that they are fighting the good fight. By defending voting for dems, they see themselves as a protector of the marginalized. Attacking that notion is questioning their identity as a good, caring person, which will only cause them to dig in.
Instead suggest that while voting for dems isn’t a bad idea per se, your goals would be better served by organizing and building other forms of dual power. This is an inoffensive alternative that indicates that you respect and share their values, while encouraging them to explore non-electoral options. Correct ideas can only be built through class struggle.
This line of argument is counterproductive.
Our goal is not to get them to publicly hold positions for the sake of bourgeois politicians smelling that and moving left. Our goal is a system that liberates the marginalized. This cannot take hold through bourgeois elections. Capital must be overthrown, not convinced.
There are two dialectics, themselves in a dialectical relationship with one another:
For them to come to the conclusion that revolution is necessary, they need to stop seeing change through the lense of elections. By encouraging them to get involved outside that system, they can begin to see how change can be enacted through their own hands. Only then can they drop the D vs. R. mindset. Class struggle is the only reliable path towards correct ideas.
Announce loudly that you do not care if they vote and for whom, and that their identity as a good, caring person is accepted if and only if they are doing something to organize outside of electoral politics. This encourages them to get involved, likely coming into IRL contact with influences more radical than themselves.
The trans kids are already under the bus. Voting Democrat keeps this under the bus. Voting Republican knee caps them before they get run over by the bus.
Now I have a radical idea: Fuck both of them and get the kids out from under the bus.