• RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.worldEnglish
    62·
    vor 3 Tagen

    Any time a group of people is open to anyone joining it’s going to get ruined by the awful people using it as an excuse to be awful. Doubly so when the original group of people is emotionally vulnerable and hurt.

    Incel, Femcel, doesn’t matter. Makes no difference to awful people what they’re called if they can get in a group to collectively fantasize about being more awful than they could get way with in real life. I wish the actual people that are hurt can get the help they need to get better.

    • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
      2·
      vor 8 Stunden

      These people often have other issues too but they don’t want to accept that so instead they try and make it everybody else’s fault.

    • Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.netEnglish
      8·
      vor 2 Tagen

      The real issue is that, most of the time, those who want to do harm are themselves emotionally vulnerable and hurt, which is why they gravitated to those in-groups in the first place. They turn their pain into justification which they feel entitles them to harm others as an act of retribution. “Eye for an eye” type shit.

      Every incel/femcel began as a teenager that didn’t know better, who was probably just a little weird or was taught some bullshit by their parents, who got bullied for what they perceived as being nothing more than themselves, and they had no one to help them cope with it in a healthy way.

      • RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        vor 2 Tagen

        I wouldn’t say most of the time, but that is true to some extent. I think most of the time that the actual incels just want the emotional support that they desperately need, but when coming into contact with people online naively believe everyone that calls themselves an incel is like them. So its easy for them to be manipulated. That’s where I think much of the bad reputation online for “incel” comes from, from people that were manipulated by others looking for easy targets. Many of the people that might feequent “incel communities” genuinely need help and are unknowingly drinking from a contaminated well.

        As to your second remark, not every person who has trouble with emotional connection started as a teenager that was bullied. Perhaps you are talking exclusively about the people that manipulate the vulnerable ones, in that case I can say it is probably mostly true, but there are certainly exceptions.

      • RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.worldEnglish
        4·
        vor 2 Tagen

        I think most people that frequent those type of communities feel the same, and I hope you and all of the emotionally vulnerable, man or woman, are able to get real help that you need to feel better and more self-confident. Pain in the heart is not a fun thing to spend one’s time dealing with.

      • the_crotch@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        1·
        vor 2 Tagen

        Serious question, has anyone ever tried making a community for both incels and femcels so they can learn about each other and find common ground? I think it could be beneficial to both.

        • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.worldEnglish
          1·
          vor 5 Stunden

          No, they’d just hate each other.

          They don’t want each other.

          The whole point of dating is to get someone who is socially desirable… not someone who isn’t. Incels dont’ want femcels and femcels don’t want incels… they want chad/stacy.

        • Fizz@lemmy.nzEnglish
          2·
          vor 2 Tagen

          Incels and femcels are natural enemies.

          I’ll put on my incel cap and you give the Incel answer: femcels dont exist. An Incel would say to a femcel “I’ll date you” and the femcels would say no therefore proving the Incels point thats its voluntary celibacy.

          • RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            vor 18 Stunden

            An Incel would say to a femcel “I’ll date you” and the femcels would say no therefore proving the Incels point thats its voluntary celibacy.

            I won’t lie, they would kinda have a point with that.

            I am not suggesting incels and femcels should date each other, that probably would be a bad idea, but some people who call themselves incel/femcel are just overly picky with unrealistic expectations of the kind of partner they can reasonably expect to draw the attention of. That is not involuntary, that is quite literally voluntary.

            • TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.worldEnglish
              1·
              vor 5 Stunden

              You are generous. Some incel/femcel types I’ve met were not picky… they were just totally undesirable human beings, either physical, socially, or emotionally.

              You may not believe it, but some people are the dregs of society and nobody wants to associate with them at all and no amount of ‘improvement’ will ever make them desirable to be around or date.

              Are some incels/femcels decent looking folks who are misguided? yes, and those folks may get out of their rut.

  • Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
    25·
    vor 2 Tagen

    If violent retribution is one of the paths inceldom leads to, it’s not terribly surprising if a femcel group goes the same way. What’s that saying? “Hurt people hurt people”?

    If the only bond a group of people have is due to the pain they’re in, it can easily turn toxic. It’s a shame so many people turn toward incel/femcel communities instead of toward groups about shared interests or topics. I get wanting to commiserate with others, but when it becomes a circle jerk of sadness, sticking around can make existing issues so much worse.

    • Apytele@sh.itjust.works
      2·
      vor 15 Stunden

      Yeah like people are calling this fake but like. Women’s fundamental humanity being equal to men’s means there’s just as much capacity for degeneracy.

    • Talcosis@lemmy.zip
      13·
      vor 2 Tagen

      Problem with that is that there’s a very small window in which saving an incel/femcel is easy. Before that window, they’re generally still normal but maybe withdrawing. After that window…interacting with them just kinda sucks. You need to have a certain willingness to deal with excessive self-deprecating sadness and basically make life worth living for them.

      Incel/femcel communities stew in that toxicity, so it’s easy to add your own toxicity to the stew. Normal people don’t want to put up with that shit.

      Source: a dear friend from back in the day dealt with my nearly incel ass, preventing me from falling all the way down the hole.

      • Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
        2·
        vor 1 Tag

        Well done overcoming that situation! That friend sounds like they’re worth their weight in gold. I’m glad they were able to help you and you were able to redirect from that toxic pipeline.

        I imagine prevention is the best medicine. I know a single comment from a stranger is unlikely to do much, but the more we talk about the dangers of falling down the incel rabbithole, the more likely someone will be able to recognize the situation for themselves.

        • Talcosis@lemmy.zip
          4·
          vor 1 Tag

          Eh.

          I’m still in my mid 30s and involuntarily celibate. I’m just not an incel. I recognize this is a skill issue on my part, not the fault of women.

          Fuck it, in a couple of years I’ll fuck off into the ocean and go sailing.

          • Whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
            5·
            vor 1 Tag

            Oh, I’m not congratulating you on getting laid, I’m glad you overcame the situation insofar as the mental prison of inceldom is concerned.

            Regardless of what you do, you at least have a good head on your shoulders. The ability to self-reflect instead of blaming others is some key emotional growth. I’m proud of you for that.

          • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            1·
            vor 1 Tag

            Tbf it’s not entirely a skill issue (while still not being the fault of “women”).

            The fracturing of society for starters isn’t helping, many people isolating due to that, and phones/social media/doomscrolling etc, many isolated during covid and still haven’t recovered to their old ways, many can’t afford to do shit else these days even if they did want to break out of it, none of that is helping and it’s a serious societal issue bigger than “skill issue” in reality.

            Also the commodification of dating isn’t helping any, you have to be on and pay for the hook-up apps as a barrier to entry, or pay for (your own I don’t just mean hers) drinks at a bar, both of which are more conducive to hook-ups than long term partnerships. Short of that “get a hobby, make friends, and hopefully one of those friends will set you up with someone.” So basically if you’re a FOSS/privacy advocate who doesn’t drink much anymore and hates the idea of listing profiles like you’re a dog up for adoption, your only option is to pray.

            The only other option is to go back to the old ways: Its a numbers game. Just ask, politely and take no for an answer (and not like, lewd, like ask for a lunch date or phone number or something), but ask, anywhere and everywhere, doesn’t matter if it’s now “uncouth” to ask in say the grocery store, fuck it. If she’s into you it’ll be fine, if not, fuck it who cares worst she can do is be rude and you’ll never have to talk to her again. I don’t do this now because I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but so far figuratively praying hasn’t worked and literally closing out bars (has become too expensive ffs but also) has only led to fleeting infatuations and FWBs, and while those are fun I’m looking for more than that, so, we’ll see maybe I’ll try it.

            It’s a skill issue to a degree, but also dating has been negatively affected by a general trend of social isolation, the economy being bad, and the same social media brain rot that has affected everything else along with it, on top of that.

            • Talcosis@lemmy.zip
              2·
              vor 24 Stunden

              It’s absolutely a skill issue by my age.

              I have gotten dates at the grocery store before, which is where the second skill issue comes in: women don’t stick around very long.

              • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                1·
                vor 23 Stunden

                Ah well shit, maybe then idk. I have the opposite problem I guess, hard to start a convo, but if I do I can usually keep people around.

                • Talcosis@lemmy.zip
                  1·
                  vor 19 Stunden

                  I mean, I definitely don’t start convos the way people want me to start convos, either. Idk. Just had the weirdest experience last night. Two weeks ago, I met this girl who was pretty cool in a friend way. Also, she doesn’t swing my way, no problem. Cool person. So last weekend I went out with her and some of her friends. One of her friends was kinda cute, we talked a bit, but not long at all. Nothing I would consider serious. I wasn’t trying to hit on her. She didn’t seem uncomfortable at all.

                  Then last night, hanging out with the same group of people. This girl I talked to would straight up run away if I got within ten feet of her. Happened twice, and then I started avoiding her because like…clearly causing distress with my presence alone.

                  What do I do with that? I mean apart from keep avoiding her, cause clearly she doesn’t want to be anywhere near me.

    • FavouriteShapes@sh.itjust.works
      1·
      vor 2 Tagen

      I think you overestimate the ability of biological women to hold their own against biological men once the men are >14 years old. Women deal less forceful blows and they usually have shorter stature which reduces leverage, this reducing force of attack and wrestling ability. They have less grip strength usually, and will struggle to reach the man.

      In other words: it doesn’t really happen? Also why exactly would violence be based, anyway? If this is some sort of reaction to men attacking women, then pretending there are “based women who beat on men” doesn’t really solve that issue, nor does it necessarily solve any problems if it actually happens.

      If we are talking about literal boys and girls, I’m never going to celebrate kids beating each other up. That’s just weird.

      • TwilightKiddy@programming.devEnglish
        30·
        vor 2 Tagen

        This makes it sound as if women never commit violence against men, which is just not true. Most people are not always on edge ready to fight for their life, fights are not always decided by whoever is physically stronger.

        And even though it’s a crime to beat someone in most countries, this sort of violence, especially if it’s of sexual nature, is probably somewhere around the most underreported ones.

        If a man tells someone he was beaten by a woman, he is automatically a laughingstock material, because “oh, men are physically stronger than women, no way that happened”. It’s even worse for rape, because there is no concept of men not consenting to sex in the “traditional” masculinity image.

      • ButteredBread@sh.itjust.works
        14·
        vor 2 Tagen

        Generally that’s true, but not always, also beating someone up is not necesarily related to physocal ability. You can notice the post says “nerd boy” or something along those lines. This probably implies not only someone that likely does not exercise much making them weaker but probably also someone insecure meaning they’re less likely to fight back.

        Also. What you say also makes it generally more acceptable for women to harm men. My brother once got hit by a woman and the literal principal of the school just said like something that he should not be complaining for a woman hitting him or something like that. That’s obviously not a good principal and I find the situation funny but like because of the same thing that like men can’t harm women and that you know. (Harmful to both sides I would say anyways, no one should be hurting anyone and anyone should be defending themselves.)

        Also I think the original comment was a joke.

        Also if a trans-woman is on HRT the physical abilities should not be that different from a cis-woman, sure there’s still the height but there are still exceptions like the person just being short, having one of those surgeries that make you shorter, the other person being tall, or having started HRT in puberty and that kind of stuff.

        Also this is just what I know and consider based on what I know and personal experience and I could of course be wrong.

      • Fizz@lemmy.nzEnglish
        10·
        vor 2 Tagen

        If a women wants to beat up men she just needs to take MMA for a year then find someone she is size matched with. There is no shortage of men who can’t fight.

  • FavouriteShapes@sh.itjust.works
    8·
    vor 2 Tagen

    I’ve never met a “femcel” - as in a woman with poor social skills who stays inside and games a lot, perhaps lacking optimism about their romantic prospects and overall destiny - in my life so the whole concept did strike me as weird. Seeing the “femcel” subreddits, twitter pages and Instagram pages, all it reminded me of were the toxic girls from my hometown who essentially scared off new prospects by being so rude to them and CLEARLY chose their lifestyle very early on.

    I therefore think femcel is a misnomer. I think generally women aren’t getting hung up on men in an incel-ly way - the ones that do skip straight to stalker serial killer lady - I think women are good at socialising and always have some sort of support system.