We need people at the top who will resist when the shit hits the fan. They should tread lightly to hang on to their position.
I condemn the ones who resign out of principle, they are the very people we need to stay in.
Paparo, who serves as U.S. commander for the Indo-Pacific region, visibly took issue with the question. He said: “I find that scenario to be absolutely and utterly preposterous.”
He added: “I follow the orders of the commander-in-chief, but that is a needlessly emotional question.”
Look at his left chest - a billboard of medals and citations. He didn’t get those by giving the wrong answer, or by basing his statements or actions on his personal opinion. His ‘preposterous’ statement would be a statement of fact, not a statement of opinion. Here are some of the facts that are behind the factual ‘preposterous’ statement.
Any order that comes down the chain of command, keeps going down the chain of command. At every step of the way, the officers would have the option to follow the order by ‘advancing to the rear’.
From Google AI: Presumption of Legality: Routine orders carry a legal presumption of lawfulness, and a soldier must obey normal commands. However, that presumption breaks down when an order directs an overt, clear violation of domestic or international law (such as targeting unresisting civilians).
Also: The defense of “just following orders” (historically known as the Nuremberg defense) is not legally valid in the US military. If a soldier carries out an order that a person of “ordinary sense” would know is illegal—such as executing a surrendered enemy combatant—the soldier can be criminally prosecuted alongside the officer who gave the command.
Also: The Supremacy Clause: Article VI of the Constitution states that treaties made by the United States are part of the “supreme law of the land.”
Treaty Conflicts: If the U.S. has a formal treaty or defense pact with an ally, attacking that ally could violate U.S. treaty commitments, which hold the status of federal law.
Since both countries are members of NATO, any order to attack Canada from the Commander-in-Chief could easily be interpreted up and down the chain of command as an illegal order. This would put every soldier in the predicament of possibly being prosecuted for obeying such an order, right up and down the entire chain of command. It also presents the possibility of the POTUS being charged and convicted of the crime of issuing an illegal order. Thus, answering the question as stated is factually ‘preposterous’. The POTUS could not, as Commander-in-Chief, be reasonably seen as being able to give a legal order to attack Canada.
But it is also very clear that he is indirectly accusing Trump of being needlessly emotional in even insinuating the possibility that Trump could give such an illegal order.
You better disobey or we’ll make sure that no one in the armed forces get any rights. We’d shoot you on sight along with anyone else that didn’t refuse the shitter in cheif. Behave and use your neglected moral compass.
That means he would.
I’m not sure actually, because had he said he wouldn’t, they probably would have just discharged him.
No matter what he says he would. You don’t become a General by refusing orders.
And even if he would refuse he’d be removed from command and something willing to obey would replace him.
Have they said no to any of the USA’s other illegal invasions? Don’t count on the bravery of Americans who tell you they would resist. Count on drones.
The military doesn’t promote officers for refusing orders.
Said it before and will say it again. This is why I feel running to another country you have to think about. We have this insanely large military and a lot of damage can be done with it. We need to protest and refuse to work and whatever else we can do.
I get everyone is making jokes here, but that is serious. Even if many of you genuinely believe Canada could contend with something like a US invasion, I don’t think most of us could bear the cost of even a short conflict. How many of you are already having a hard time affording to live here or have dependents?
What a stupid ragebait headline. Of course a geneneral is not going to even suggest they would disobey a hypothetical lawful order. Why would someone end their career for some journalists gocha question?
Says nothing about his private thoughts or what he would actually do. Zero information value.
If anything, I’d give him credit for not saying yes. Hell in the current climate that might get you removed.
How is that a lawful order??
Because its a hypothetical where the journalist didnt specify “unlawful order”. Its a bs gocha question. There are hypothetical situations where it would be lawful, regardless of how likely.
War isn’t actually illegal. I know it feels like it should be, but it really isn’t. People say a war is “illegal” because I suppose they feel like it carries more weight than to just say it’s “immoral”. I guess it’s somehow comforting to people to think that somehow some lawyers could prevent countries from going to war somehow.
He very clearly said that such an order from the POTUS would be illegal, and that no one in the chain of command would consider it as a legal order. The POTUS can not giver a legal order to attack a country that the US has a peace agreement with, and both countries are covered by the NATO agreement.
But there are illegal wars. Iran right now is illegal it wasn’t approved by Congress. Trump is basically using legal bullfuckery and a lack of consequences to do that shit.
Congress allows the executive branch to do so, this war is not an abuse of the legal system it’s being used as intended
Yes any order from the POTUS to attack a country that America has a peace accord with is not a legal order.
How is bombing a wedding a lawful order?
The military is trained to be mindless sychophants.
They weren’t ordered to bomb a wedding, they either thought it was something else or they missed another target. They just don’t give a shit that they bombed a wedding.
It’s technically not illegal to invade another country unprovoked. It’s illegal to do war crimes though. You can invade a country and annex it without committing warcrimes.
I guess if your shit hole country doesn’t adhere to international law.
It isn’t, but Congress is pretending it is which is the same thing.
Lawful /= you agree with it, basically.
To see why this is definitely within the powers the president has, swap “Canada” for “Vietnam”, “Iraq” or “Iran”. For more detail, you’d have to refer to the actual laws of war the US government recognises.
Canada and America are bound bu the NATO agreement. Under American law that makes any order to attack Canada not a legal order. Any military officer who abides by that order commits an offense under American law. That is why it is ‘preposterous’. That was a factually correct term, not his opinion.
Sounds like it’s high time America was dissolved and balkanized, then.
There isn’t any nation where the military can just disagree. Even under a military junta, it’s only the junta itself that gets a say; everyone lower down must follow orders (even the ones involving atrocities, in that case. The West is weird for exempting something).
That said, yeah, America isn’t looking so good these days.
In America it is illegal for a member of the military to obey a command that is not legal. If they do obey, or even issue a command that is not legal, they can be prosecuted and if found guilty imprisoned.
It never did. It was founded on genocide and slavery.
Yes, .ml person. I’m sure you believe that. And also that North Korea is better, somehow. 'Nuff said.
I believe in history, lol? Why are you bringing up North Korea?
Is your brain okay?
Edit: clearly this person wasn’t interested in a conversation at all, based on my instance, lol?
Now that they charge themselves 100% tariff on drones …
Jokes aside, I say we should get ready. Everybody can gain or polish some relevant skills that come in handy if it comes to it.
Best case you have a new hobby, worst case we make their life miserable if they decide to try and attack us.
I’m pretty sure that if he publicly says he’s going to disobey orders, that’s grounds for removal, even under a sane president. (Although a sane president might not choose to remove him)
This is almost certainly why he won’t answer the question either way. If he says that he wouldn’t, Trump would just fire him and replace him with someone that says they would privately, away from any public scrutiny at all.
It’s a pointless question. If he answers no truthfully he gets fired. If he lies and says ‘yes’ to keep his job we get undue anxiety when there already enough of that going around from memes and trade wars.
Especially if they’re lawful orders, like this.
It would not be a lawful order The POTUS does not have the authority to issue such an order. That is why he clearly stated 'it is preposterous;. Not an opinion, a statement of fact.
If the US tried it Canada would make Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc look like a casual sunday stroll in the park. If the US couldn’t handle Guerrilla warfare against people who DON’T look like them, imagine how well they’ll do against people that do. And the further north they got the more fucked they’d be. Ever been in a fight with a pissed off Indigenous individual? try it, see how far you get. Not only that you got all the dudes living in the bush with rifles and god knows what else.
People who look like them, sound like them and know all the same pop culture, including supposedly local stuff like news anchors.
There’s not many shibboleths they could use, and usually they pick a really obvious one. I pledge…
Quebec’s revenge would land on Trump
And the further north they got the more fucked they’d be
Doesn’t like 90% of Canada’s population live within 100 km of the border? Not much reason to even go that far north unfortunately
No need to take the minerals, oil and water that are abundant in those northern places?
Ehhh. Most of the extraction happens in the south too, because you need workers (edit: and reasonably low shipping costs). Like, Fort Mac is a little further north, but it’s still below 60N, in Alberta.
Mining and O&G put together are like 5% of Canada’s GDP. All the valuable real estate and I suspect much of the industries other than mining and logging are concentrated in the major cities. You’d get like 90% of the benefits from controlling 10% of the country. Not that I’d expect Trump to realize this. Luckily he seems to be as dumb as he is evil.
But it’s a good portion of our exports. Hairdressers aren’t super relevant for an occupying force.
Although, resource extraction wouldn’t be the point of this war. There’s lots of much softer, easier to propagandise about targets out there, if they just wanted an encore of colonialism.
Hairdressers aren’t super relevant for an occupying force.
That’s fair. But I’m pretty sure most of the manufacturing is still near where the population is since workers are needed. And if they decide to go full settler mode, all the urban areas will be free to occupy if Canadians are out in the forests defending the homeland.
But tbf, it is Trump we’re talking about. He would probably want the oil more than anything, even if there’s so much else that would be much easier to take.
The plan is to follow the Taliban’s example, it sounds like, so there’d be both rural and urban activity reinforcing each other, and the point would be to make properly occupying all cities at once fairly impossible.
Trump’s main motive seems to improvement of the US’s size and border shape on a map. Probably, Like in Afghanistan, resources are beside the point. Although he’s not going to say no if he can manage it.
That means there’s all the more wilderness area to retreat and disappear into.
Regardless that at least 70% of Americans would join the Canadians
Or at least passively support us, which works.
I don’t think it would be nearly as difficult as Vietnam. Vietnam had direct military aid from China coming over the land border, whereas the united States had to stretch their logistics halfway around the world.
If the U.S. hadn’t used up our missile and artillery supplies in Iran and Ukraine, I think the majority of the Canadian military and government could be taken out all at once.
Obviously attacking a friendly neighbor is a villainous thing to do, but I don’t think the Vietnam comparison is apt.
Taking out bases with missiles is different than invading and dealing with guerilla warfare tactics and a bunch of really angry citizens who have guns…we just don’t talk about it.
Yeah, maybe Europe would help, and the other commonwealth countries would have an awkward time not helping at all, particularly the UK. But, there’s an ocean in the way. Nobody can just hop on the Hoser Chi Minh trail and cross into ice Laos.
On the other hand, you absolutely could walk accross into America itself and mess things up. Honestly, that might be even better.
Yea 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of a 6,416 kilometre (3,987 mile) largely unsecured border. The counter insurgency would be unparalleled in human history.
Vietnam has a total area of approximately 331,344 square kilometers (127,933 square miles)
The total area of British Columbia is 944,735 square kilometers (364,764 square miles).
Canada has a total area of approximately 9,984,670 square kilometres (3,855,100 square miles)
Stretching your logistics is an entirely different challenge than spreading your logistics out.
The USA built up many bases in South Vietnam to launch the invasion. So it’s not like they were operating on a major handicap.
They don’t need to capture empty land. They need capital cities and a few other strategic points.
Well that’s where the oil, rare earth metals, and thousands of guerilla insurgents will be.
Maybe go back to whatever you were reading about Vietnam and finish it. Clearly you didn’t.
You think a comparison between Canada and Vietnam is meaningful.
This might be the most delusional thing I’ve ever seen commented on Lemmy.
Why?
Like, it’s a little imaginative in parts. But Canada is bigger than Afghanistan in every way, and not weak in any of the same ways.
Because it is delusional. Afghanistan is a world away, has strong cultural influence for that kind of combat, and isn’t filled with people who came to the country with the intention of going to the USA.
When surveyed about 49% of Canadians say they wouldn’t fight for their country. 10% would welcome being annexed by the USA- after all, many people only come to Canada because they couldn’t get into the usa. We don’t have anything close to the resolve afgans have, and we don’t have the stomach for war. Sure, we have some elite snipers, but snipers an army do not make.
There’s no point in this conversation though, because anybody who thinks Canada stands a snowballs chance in hell against the USA is a full scale invasion isn’t going to respond to reason.
The US military does not have the capability to invade and control Canada, not even close. While the US may pay the most for military they don’t really get their monies worth much like healthcare.
Could the US invade Canada? Certainly, but it would be short lived and unsustainable.
They don’t need to take all of Canada. It would probably just be Alberta. And they would have help from the separatists which gives what many yanks will see as legitimacy.
If the USA invades, the white house gets burned down again and Trump gets ICC arrested.
I’ll bring the marshmallows
Jokes aside its quite possible. Ukrainian partnerships with canada on domestic drone production, the US would burn perpetually if they dared. They are projecting a weak canada to save face, but they dare not mistaken canadian politeness for weakness. There is a reason Trump says we are the hardest do deal with of any country. Because we are done putting up with their shit. To be Canadian means to not be Amerikkkan.
The US is the only country to have used nukes in war
Remember the wildfires earlier this year? The US would irradiate themselves if they nuked Canada. Sure, Trump might try to piss into the wind, but the rest are way too selfish to let him.
Depends how they use the nuke. Airbursts are pretty clean
Vapourising/torching cities would be an unlawful order, though. And still far fetched; they want to own us, not kill us all.
Not really. People love in Hiroshima today. I visited the dome where the nuke landed.
They could drop several without any real issues, and they’ve already planned for that.
The Canadian military relies heavily on the US partnership, not to mention the average urban Canadian has never seen, held or heard a firearm, as much as liked to say that we have a chance it’s certainly would be a slim one.
The fuck kind of argument is that? How hard could it be to learn to use a gun? Students in the USA use it all the time.
Guns are stupidly easy to use. They do need training to use WELL but the most it would take is a few weeks for basic firefight skills. Most of it is knowing how to move from cover to cover and not exposing yourself.
Forget the Canadian military, if the US couldn’t defeat the Taliban with NATO help, what hope do they have against Canadians without it?
Canadians aren’t even a different skin color - what is the US going to do, stop and question every white person with a gun? Every white person traveling long distances in a car?
Oh hey look now the Rocky Mountains are impassable by land because there are Canadian resistance hidden in caves all the way down to Mexico. But surely the western seaboard and its population will be loyal to Trump, right?
And so it goes. An invasion of Canada would dissolve the USA in a few years.
One major difference. Canada has had more Intel and data integration with the US for much much longer than Iraq or Afghanistan. This means palantir and other Intel gathering companies have far, far more shit on Canadians that might have an inkling of resistance against the US, and do not think they will spare or be nicer to Canadians. They will absolutely round up everyone they can or their families. It will actually be harder for Canadians to fight back than the others.
Sure, lots of people will get rounded up, but how many will slip the net? How many hundreds of thousands of partisans are spread over tens of millions of square kilometers of rural Canada? How thin can US patrols and round-up efforts spread themselves before they become convenient sources of weapons and ammunition as they are set upon by IEDs and household drones with weapons taped to them? What does it help the US if they know the porn preferences of the guy living in the woods sniping US servicemen?
And then there’s the American partisans who understand this is the best time to rebel they are ever going to get. With so many loyalists deployed to Canada, are there still enough to respond to riots, sieges of police buildings, prison breaks, acts of sabotage, etc. in the US? Maybe they can be tracked (or maybe the cameras will be destroyed en masse), but are there enough boots on the ground to stop them?
But the opposite is also true, and it’s much easier for Canadians to counter attack on US soil than for anyone else.
During the first flair up of annexation threats the Canadian Forces revealed they were preparing for a possible conflict that would require them to learn from their loss to the Taliban. There is no true dependency on the US if push comes to shove.
https://futurism.com/science-energy/canadian-military-insurgent-techniques
Edit: also, the US is actively losing to Iran, dont count Canada out so quickly.
Shutting down the St. Lawrence seaway would probably not be difficult for a determined insurgency.
The strait of Hormuz might be pennies compared to that.
Why don’t you google per capita firearm ownership, lol.
2.4 million licensed firearms owners in this country with a population of 40.5 million people, that’s 6.17% of the population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_and_Acquisition_Licence
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/canada-population/
Also important to note most who do have a PAL and who do have firearms, usually have more than one.
Canada is 7th in the world in terms of firearms per capita. I’m sure we’d be okay.
We’d run out of ammunition first
Sharp sticks with shit on them will do, as we’ve seen from history.
Don’t threaten us with a good time
Mango Mussolini would need to start a military draft.
There has to be a strong precedent that’s a lawful order.
If invading a country that it seems like you can’t justifiably invade counted, several recent American wars would be remembered quite differently.
AN order like “start bombing schools in Canada” would be a different matter. (Inb4 someone links a time they bombed a school, 'cause West bad)
He clearly stated that such an order would not be a legal order. What exactly do you think the factual term ‘preposterous’ means? Under American law, it is illegal to attack a country that America has a peace pact with, and both counties are members of NATO. No ‘executive order’ can change that, and every officer in the American military knows that they can be charged and if convicted imprisoned for following an order that is not a legal order, no matter who gives it.
“Links a time”?
Like at the beginning of the last illegal fucking war they started 6 months ago?
There you go!
It would have been embarrassing if nobody did it after/because I pointed it out.
Eh… I think you should maybe still be embarrassed.
Did you see a link?
No, because it was recent enough you know exactly what I was talking about.
Funny enough, I’m actually not sure.
Do you still want to give a link?
That’d be playing right into your hands.
Nice try.
Was it, or was it an obvious softball question you were supposed to get?
For anyone reading, the point is actually to not talk to these people, since I don’t like having the same argument over and over again, and it’s messed up they care so much about “winning” in the first place.
So stop arguing. It is very clear in American law that the POTUS can not issue a legal order to attack a country that America has a peace pact with, and both countries are members of NATO. Exactly what do you think he meant by the factual statement ‘preposterous’, as in ‘not possible’? For any military officer who follows and repeats such an order, they could be tried and if convicted imprisoned.
