- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
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Stop funding it.
It’s this part.
We’re telling them they’ve gone too far, seeing rules… and giving them weapons. Are we giving them seasons so they listen?
And if they don’t listen, doesn’t this make us complicit and with exceedingly poor intensional optics?
They know that the worst that will happen is a stern warning. “Don’t do that again, but it was justified. But don’t do it… OK, just a little bit, but still.”
The wink and the nod really spoil the effect of the stern look and strong finger wagging…
What stern looks? I’m not seeing them.
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I think they meant to say sanctions, not seasons.
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My guess is “setting rules”
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“We’re telling you not to do this thing, and we assure you all we’ll ever do about you still doing it is to tell you again not to do it whilst carrying on helping you to do it”
How much Israeli money do you reckon went into the pockets of members of the fascist “freedom” caucus?
Perhaps stop funding Hamas. USA has given Palestine several billions of dollars in aid, which they divert to the hands of Hamas. Ditto for rest of the western world. It isn’t just Iran and Qatar who enable them, it’s all of us.
Your post uses double speak. Opening with Hamas and switching to Palestine.
Hamas was democratically elected but they stopped allowing elections. They don’t represent Palestine and intentionally conflating relief efforts with funding Hamas comes off as more than a little racist.
If you’re parroting some news source you may want to look for your news someplace else. If these are really your own views you may want to examine them if you don’t like sounding racist.
If you don’t mind, then by all means, carry on. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously outside of right wing circles.
Also worth adding, since people don’t seem to realise this: The majority of Palestinians alive today were not of voting age when Hamas won those elections, and a very substantial proportion were not even born.
And even then, of course, while Hamas won the largest number of votes, even back then they still only had the support of a minority (ca. 44%) of the electorate.
Exit polls during the same election showed near 80% support for a peace agreement with Israel, and 75% who wanted Hamas policy towards Israel to change. In other words: It’s also disingenuous to see even the support for Hamas that was there in elections as support for the more extreme aspects of Hamas’ actions.
In other words, the vast majority of people in Gaza want the PA administration wants Hamas stripped of power. Given the numbers, this includes even people who have a positive view of Hamas overall.
Congress would need to initiate it unfortunately
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Biden: “For fuck’s sake, Israel, don’t do something this monumentally stupid.”
No points for guessing what comes next.
Is it ethnic cleansing?
Oh boy!
“Here I go killin’ again!”
That’s been happening for decades and just last week they starting displacing 1MM more. So I don’t think “next” is the right word.
Ethnic cleansing comes next. It also came previous, but it will come next, too.
Biden needs to be primaried.
The democratic party keeps making the mistake of picking a winner early.
It’s too late. None of the state parties have any of the setup done for a primary. Once an incumbent president (of either party) declares they’re running again their party automatically backs them. I just feel lucky we have incumbent primaries for Congress.
I mean, I’m voting for West. Democrats only hold power if we say they do. Just don’t vote for Democrats ever again. The only control we have is over ourselves let’s exercise it
If there’s a chance then sure. But I’m not exactly going to stick a fork in my eye just to spite the Democrats.
Voting for Democrats will only exacerbate our problems. Democrats have never made societies problems meaningfully better, at least in the modern era. Its not spiting them, it’s not signing off on the thing we all know will definitely happen. Voting for Biden will make things worse. Voting for West might possibly make things better. The choice is obvious.
If West has a chance sure. If not then we’re just denying votes to the contest between Status Quo man and Fascist man.
I have 500 on anyone who evacuated the Northern area is denied re-entry and the maps change to gaslight the world into thinking Gaza was always that small.
I don’t see why they’d need to occupy anything. Occupation would imply that you wanted to control that area and those people. I think Israel knows occupation would never work and wouldn’t try it. They’ve preferred to wall-off people in enclaves, slowly squeeze all life out of those regions, and when the people they have cornered inevitably violently lash out against their own slow-motion genocide, it’s time to flatten the area with bombs again. Israel calls it “mowing the grass” and I don’t think a massive occupation fits with that strategy. I think they want to break the region, scatter the people, and leave it to rot, not occupy and be forced to manage it into the future indefinitely.
Turning it into the world’s largest open air prison is occupation.
Or what?
Edit: FYI I’m not supporting Israel doing this
Or they’ll give them even more money and say some angry things about it.
The USA could end homelessness or hunger (and maybe both) nationally for the amount of money we sent to Israel each year.
No, no they could not lol. Not even remotely close.
The US spends $2 Billion a year on aid to Israel.
They spend $105 Billion a year in direct payments to SNAP (food stamps) recipients.
And $32 Billion a year on section 8 housing vouchers.
It’s almost as if throwing money at free handouts doesn’t fix the problem.
The problem is starving homeless children. Feeding them and giving them housing fixes this. It also gives them more opportunities, which makes it more likely they contribute to society in meaningful ways (including paying more in taxes than we spend helping them, especially when factored over generations). The alternative is often a bigger tax burden via the criminal justice system. (Prison is much more expensive than housing vouchers and food stamps).
Bringing people out of poverty is a good economic investment. The only time handouts don’t help is when they go to the financial sector. It doesn’t improve tax income for the State and investors begin to predict bailouts, making risky investments more worthwhile because Uncle Sam will help them out.
Tax the rich, feed the poor.
2 billion dollars won’t solve a single thing, nationally.
Since ‘48, we’ve sent over 158 billion in aid- without adjusting for inflation.
It’s more than all other countries combined- including Ukraine.
Even that 2 billion could go a very long way to helping.
You’re right, it could.
In fact, the US could fund a few wars and conflicts, end homelessness, implement socialized healthcare and fund the world’s best public transit system with affordable high-speed trains between cities simultaneously.
But they don’t because they don’t want to, not because they can’t.
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Sadly it doesn’t exist in the US, you would have to look to China and Japan.
That’s enough to end homelessness last I checked. (Last year or so I compared median national housing prices and found that Elon Musk’s wealth was enough to take every family and single person in the country off the street. That’s how obscene 150 billion is. It’s enough to end homelessness).
Eh, I’m a bit pessimistic about a 100% solution to it. Can’t save everyone… That’s not a reason to not do everything that can be done, but I just don’t think there will ever be an end.
And I absolutely agree with how obscene it is
For real. Every day they wake up with the ability to end hunger, or end homelessness, and they decide not to do it.
Sick fucks.
Good thing it’s more than Ukraine too. Wouldn’t want any com block arms dealers mouths to go unfed.
That homelessness and hunger are not ended in the USA is not because the money needed is spent on other things, it is because the government doesn’t want to end them.
Glhf passing that bill
“Or else we will be very, very angry with you. And we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.”
Or the region could destabilize and the US has diplomatic cover to limit their hypothetical response to a more defensive set of operations.
Massacring civilians is fine, but occupying is a bridge too far, I guess.
I definitely get your point here, but a ground invasion would be irreversible. They would never leave Gaza
Haven’t they done it twice before? Something like 2006 and 2014?
They didn’t demand evacuation back then. They invaded, killed a bunch of people, declared victory, then left (obvious oversimplification). This time, they ordering the civilian population to leave seems to be an indication they expect to invade, murder stragglers, then annex the land once it’s empty and leveled. It does seem to go along with the rhetoric of “exerting a price they’ve never dreamed of”.
It’s very much a price the Palestinians dream of though. Israeli settler groups did exactly that in 1947.
Death is kinda irreversible too
Agreed. Just needed to point this out
warehouse workers ask Jeff Bezos not to travel by private jet
I mean, the US does have access to the money and weapons faucet Israel relies on.
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It appears that Israel possibly was aware the attack was going to happen and they allowed it. Regardless, Israel supports Hamas. They need Hamas so they can justify their murder and colonialism. I agree Hamas is bad, but the Zionists have done much more harm. Bibi should not be in office.
I would need much, much more solid proof for this conspiracy theory before believing it.
I don’t doubt Israel had some unspecified warnings, but I just think it’s much more likely that it was a mixture of a misguided belief that Hamas was more interested in political power than large scale terrorism, an assumption that any attack would just be “regular” rocket attacks like we’ve seen in the last years, incompetence of Israeli intelligence services, and an over confidence that the fence and Iron Dome would be enough to stop any attack.
Also, Israel doesn’t need Hamas. Just look at the West Bank where Hamas isn’t in power.
Agree though that Bibi shouldn’t be in power.
It’s a difficult thing to prove without a whistle blower fairly high up in Israeli intelligence. What does look very suspicious is one of the most advanced intelligence agencies in the world “missed it”, and it took one of the most well funded and constantly present in the area militaries 8 hours to respond.
Israel has had a major PR problem as more and more people view Palestinians as people who also deserve to be alive. Letting a terrorist group in that region attack undefended is a way for Israel to play the victim as they respond by taking more land homes and lives.
Is there any evidence that Israel supports hamas?
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Do you know how to use search engines?
That was literally 40+ years ago. Situation was vastly different.
However, Israel should have known that helping to create a radical organization may bring issues in the future. So yes, it’s their mistake.
That’s assuming it’s a mistake and not the desired outcome. They prop up terrorists, then get to use the excuse of countering terrorism to take over the rest of the territory and commit a genocide.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. You need to stop this naïveté and ignorance.
What ignorant and naïveté?
I’m a simple man. I think murder is always bad.
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This should be the least controversial take of all time.
Hamas is palestines means of fighting back at their oppressors. You can’t say they are separate entities, because without Hamas, Palestinians would all be dead by now. Its like saying “I support having meat, but not the killing of animals”. And why are you pro Israel? They want to do genocide. If the Israeli people are innocent of their countries crimes, they will overthrow the government.
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We’re back to the “beheading” propaganda again? What is your source for that?
Bro, listen to anything else besides Israeli propaganda. Most of what they say about Hamas is a flat out lie.
Without Hamas, Palestinians would have their own country lol
Hamas is literally the only reason they do not. Hamas only exists because Israel was finally close to talking Abbas into a two state solution, which he had previously always denied.
How do you not know this, at this point?
“Yeah sure, I will stop killing you and give you your own country, all you have to do is lay down all your weapons…”
Bro it’s been happening over and over for the last 30 years, with Islamists fighting the peace process: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process
Fact is, Israel is the only country actually trying to create the first ever Palestinian state, and that includes “Palestine”
You can debate opinions all you want but history is history.
Imagine unironically believing that. LMAO.
That’s literally the history.
You’re delusional.
Imagine being this fucking stupid that you think Israeli propaganda is true.
Ah yes the most famous Israeli propaganda of all, well-documented historical facts
A bunch of 20 year olds raving in the desert are not “the oppressors.”
You are just stating your opinion.
The real fascists are netanyahu and his ilk.
If the Israeli people are innocent of their countries crimes, they will overthrow the government.
It never, ever works that way. Seriously, name one time when a government was overthrown by its own citizens for committing atrocities against foreigners.
I didn’t say it was common, or easy. But that is the bar. Looking the other way on genocide is equivalent to doing it yourself.
I don’t believe in setting bars people are demonstrably unable to reach. You’re basically asking people to start a civil war to protect strangers they’ll never meet, knowing the outcome of such a war is far from certain. Even if you win, the damage to your country could be catastrophic, and the odds of ending up with new leaders who are at least as bad as the old ones are pretty high.
Yes, you should start a civil war to prevent your country doing genocide. Because the alternative is genocide. What exactly is complicated about this?
You’re not listening to what I’m saying.
Also, why are you on the internet and not out overthrowing a genocidal government right now? Shame on you!
I am listening to what you’re saying, you’re making excuses for Americans who don’t care enough to stop a genocide happening on their dime.
What do you think the most effective way is for an American to try to prevent this genocide? Your whataboutism isn’t wholly wrong, but I don’t know what I’m supposed to do beyond writing to my senators demanding that they kill the funding. So, what is your answer?
Genuine question… how is killing 1800 people protecting oneself against an attack that killed 1200 people? I would agree that Israel has a right to protect itself from terrorist attacks but I fail to see how killing more people protects anyone. If anything, it’s just instigating the terrorists to continue to try and kill more people.
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Who is applauding Hamas?
You think Hamas won’t be in power unless majority of people supports it? They celebrated when Hamas murder those citizens.
You think Hamas won’t be in power unless majority of people supports it?
Trump took power in the US even though the majority didn’t support him.
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Biden “And definitely don’t occupy 5 different countrys at the same time. Some of them for over 20 years. Come on man!”
Listen here, jack!
*countries
Israel won’t even need to occupy Gaza after they carpet bomb whats left of it into rubble. 😒
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Yeah, what will he or the Democrats do when Israel does occupy Gaza?
Continue to provide unequivocal support and money to Israel?
It’s not like they’ll do anything else like officially recognize Israel has been acting as a apartheid state causing mass human suffering which in turn grew more mass suffering and conflict.
Don’t you dare cross this line!
Ok don’t cross this line!!
Ok don’t cross THIS line!
Ok I’m going inside, if you knock, I’m not coming out.
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I too love completely irrelevant whataboutisms.
You think Trump is bad?! Do you think a kindergartener, a sentient corn cob, and a clowder of housecats would do any better?
Only one of those has a chance of ending up in the white house.
It’s the corn, isn’t it?
I think it would be the ultimate show of force if the U.S. gives aid to Israel, tells Israel to not go any further, and when they do, the U.S. obliterates their military. “We helped you and you still lost.” I just wish the innocent wouldn’t get killed. The innocent and vulnerable are always the ones who suffer. Fuck war.
Obama picked Biden for VP because he was a darling of the Israel lobby, who didn’t particularly like Obama. Anyone who’s satisfied by this sort of lip service from Biden were just looking for any reason to absolve the administration to serve a partisan political alignment.
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After decades of turning blind eye towards Israel’s crimes, suddenly Murica thinks it’s going too far.
So many empty hateful comments here miss the fact that 70 years ago was 70 years ago, and since then a whole new generation of people are living in the region. Israelies who don’t feel obligated to have Israel but don’t want anti-Semitism abroad, and palestinians who don’t mind staying where they were born, inside the 48 borders, but want a decent live inside of it. No leader from any place on earth is working towards them. Israeli leaders want the whole country for themselves, and Palestinian leaders also want the whole land for themselves. Neither is plausible without serious loss of life. So stop being so one-sided and actually acknowledge there are two sides to this conflict, and that all parties are reaponsible. Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
All the evidence tells us this is not true.
I was with them until that comment. Israeli people might want that, but the action of the Israeli government has been the opposite. Funny they say ‘stop being so one-sided’ and say Israel wants peaceful rulers, like Palestinians don’t want that also.
like Palestinians don’t want that also.
Exactly. This fiction that Palestinians all want Hamas to murder Israelis, or even want them to stay in charge is dangerous, because they open the door to even more moderate people buying the idea that the only thing preventing peace is Palestinians wanting it.
While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.
In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014.
So stop being so one-sided and actually acknowledge there are two sides to this conflict, and that all parties are reaponsible.
I find comments like this frustrating.
There may be two sides, but there’s only one side with an actual military and nukes and only one side running an apartheid. The only reason people aren’t referring to Israel as a terrorist state (which they are) is that they’re destroying hospitals with bombs dropped from planes and shooting news reporters with guns held by soldiers in military uniforms.
The other side has no military, has been blockaded for sixteen years, is terrorized and killed at will without recourse, and isn’t actually allowed to leave.
What makes Israel the criminal here is the power they wield and how they’ve chosen to use it.
So sure, yeah, there are two sides, yes, but the two sides are very, very different.
You could have said the same thing 70 years ago about the leader if mandatory Palestine who was appointed by the British colonizers and collaborated with Nazis, and that a group like Irgun bravely fought against them. The same Irgun that carried out the Deir Yassin massacre.
What Israel’s government is doing is wrong, and they should pay for it. And Israel should pay reparations. But the majority of Israeli’s, Palestinians, and American Jews and Muslims just want peace man. This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
Yeah.
So silly.
Jews deserve reparations from the Ottoman empire.
The difference is Israel still exists, holding Palestine back, it’s not even about reparations but stopping the actions on-going today, not just about righting wrongs from the past.
Reparations are crucial in stopping current unjust policies. That is something I believe anyway. A government can’t actively acknowledge the existence of injustice as simultaneously support policy that perpetuates it. That is one of the reasons why governments are so reluctant to pay reparations in the first place.
For Israel’s continued existence as a state, it is crucial that they pay reparations. This might mean that a few Jewish American young adults might not get to go on a free vacation to Israel, but so be it.
But we live today, not 70 years ago.
Lol today is the result of 70 years ago. Actions don’t just stop affecting people’s lives because they happened a long time ago. We couldn’t possibly live or do anything if we thought that way.
Yes, Israel has responsibility to pay reparations. I have fought for that tirelessly in many ways. I just don’t like being called a colonizers when I have never even been there.
I just don’t like being called a colonizers
Then don’t support colonizers. It’s pretty easy.
Read through my post history where I have repeatedly condemned the Israeli govt. And then let me know if you think I “support colonizers”.
I’m very frustrated that leftists can’t frame evil in the world as anything other than the “forces of colonization”. It’s a very complete and utter misunderstanding of world history and politics.
This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
This should be whom. Better luck next time!
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No, Hamas is palestines only means of fighting their oppressors. The US has made military conflict impossible for Palestine to win, and so they resort to harming whichever Israeli they can find.
Who are the oppressors? Israel left the area in 2006
Bro, Israel literally dictates how many calories and ounces of water go into Gaza, in order to keep them just above starvation.
They would not have to control it if there weren’t terrorists inside.
In addition, how is it possible that whilst israel managed to build systems for desalination, Gaza managed to build a complete dependence on others?
You have that backwards, there would not be terrorists in Gaza if not for Israeli oppression. And that happened because Israel destroyed everything Gaza built.
Oh so because the other side is weak they’re supposed to just sit idle when they murder pillage and rape? You’re disregarding all the brutal fights Israel has fought against its neighbours as “they’re strong so boo hoo”. They also have thousands dead. They’re also terrorized daily. Just because they’re stronger doesn’t make them less right. Again, they of course have a responsibility in this situation, but come on. Please tell me of any rocket launchers hidden inside a hospital Israel has. Blaming solely israel for the palestinian miserable lives is half the story. A big part of it is their terrorist leadership who take advantage of their poverty to promote a gruesome war they started (not talking about these days, talking about 48, where all the UN agreed on something and they chose to invade. Since then both sides are fully taking part in this war.).
You have no knowledge of the history and it’s painfully obvious.
Hamas exists because Israel killed secular resistance movements and funded Hamas’ rise.
Oh right, it’s not like gaza had a democratic elections where Hamas won… (And then ran a coup murdering the opposition). Israel chose the (what seemed then) less of two greater evil. Clearly they were wrong, and they faced the consequences on saturday.
that 70 years ago was 70 years ago,
I don’t have a row to hoe in any of this but that alone tells me you’re full of shit and apologizing for some evil asshole somewhere in the conflict. The past is always gonna matter whether you want it to or not.
An eye for an eye leaves Israel/Palestine a smoldering hole in the ground…
No, I think I got that wrong. How does it go?
Another retarded thought-terminating cliche that is making me think you are more and more sus.
What do you stand to gain from trying to manipulate someone like me?
Come on, english is a very large language full of other words you can use besides slurs.
Now you know how I feel when you dumbasses insinuate that the past doesn’t matter.
I didn’t do that which you can easily tell by reading the conversation up to this point.
I jumped in to comment on your usage of slurs for no reason.
Which is a petty act that does nothing but derail the conversation, but do go ahead and prove my point that you’re here to argue in bad faith by quibbling over the use of a word instead of focusing on what really matters: the morality of the Israel/Hamas conflict.
Here, go ahead, retard. The floor is yours:
Clearly you don’t understand what I mean, since you’re not that knowledgeable in this conflict. Palestinians’ leaders final goal is to get the 48 borders back. Nothing less and nothing more. And to that I said that it’s been 70 years, and you’ll need to grab it by conquest to get it, since the people lived there an entire life, and will never give it up. The leaders from both sides need to understand that any further border change between them will only make things worse, and the ones who started wanting to conquer was Palestinians. Now Israel is doing the same, but after many years, in which they got more right wing and more national, because of course they will when their busses are bombed by terrorists on the other side. I’m not saying Israel is clear of charge, I just say that they started better than Palestinians, then got more national as time went, because obviously - their enemies are murdering rapists. Palestinians are consistent with their desire to destroy Israel, Israelies have been building up to it (talking about each of their leaders, a.k.a the ones who matter).
So in other words you really really want me to reject the notion that the past matters, and therefore you can be dismissed outright.
*The distant past. A.k.a, the 48 past. So much has changed since then, including the people themselves. People should act based on how to improve their present and future, not how to improve (avenge) their past.
i understand you are well intentioned but really also simplistic and generic. what you have said can apply to any conflict just changing the names.
the world through the UN resolutions has clearly indicated who is the oppressor and violators of human rights.
it is the state of Israel itself.
Right now? Yeah, definitely they’re violating human rights. But what are they supposed to do given their history? Every Palestinian leadership ever called out for civilians to be "jihad"s (terrorists) and kill as many as possible. I was simplistic because everyone here on lemmy also talks simplisticly. Talk of no nuance and no faults on both sides, mainly say “israel bad”, “israel apartheid”, “israel should stop existing” - all while forgetting this conflict has two sides. Yes, one side is poorer, but that doesn’t make them more just. Both are wrong, but arguably palestinian leadership are the worst here. Being at a huge disadvantage and still choosing to fight a war they’ll lose, while in the process keeping their citizens poor. At least Israel evacuated the cities near Gaza, while Hamas blocked people evacuating outside of a warzone.
sorry for late response.
well,is it not true that the entity who denies the right of existence to the other side has been Israel?
is it not true that Israel is a terrorist state by any definition of the word?
and is it not true that Hamad is truely something which if it did not exist, Israel would wish it existed?
and is it not true that that which Israel wishes for, Israel gets?
what are your thoughts on these?
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Palestine denies the existence of Israel, even stated by the symbols of Hamas and the PLO, coloring the entire state of Israel as their territory. Now, who actually has the right to that land? The ones who bought those lands in the early 20th century and got a majority vote of the U.N to their creation alongside their neighbours? Or is it the ones who objected since the beginning up until today that no jew can rule any part of that land? The biggest diners of the other side’s existence are the Palestinians. They have since the beginning denied the right for a jewish state to exist. Israel started to deny a Palestinian state to exist only after the arabs started an all-out war on Israel.
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Terrorist state? What does that even mean considering they Palestinians aren’t their citizens? They’re a state who has very hostile neighbours right next to them, and that acts with aggression to aggression. No act of violence against civilians has been started by the IDF, while hundreds of acts of violence have started against civilians by Hamas (the PLO don’t directly do terrorism, but they pay terrorist jihad’s families for killing innocents).
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Can you really say that Israel wishes for Hamas? Even after 7/10 can you seriously say that Israel wishes for such a violent terrorist organization to exist right next to their borders? If so then that’s some severe case of Stockholm syndrome. Yes, Hamas is simpler to deal with politically, but it’s so much more threatening and hard to deal with militarily. How are they supposed to fight people who hide amongst innocents? Hamas is probably the biggest headache to Israel ever. They ruin their relations with Suni arab countries, they make them look bad to the western world by making them bomb civilian infrastructure, and they actively pillage their villages for terror’s sake. Seriously, how can Israel wish for that.
Also let’s be clear, what Israel wants is the entire land of Israel, including the west bank, all under jewish control. That’s obviously their best scenario. Do they get what they wish? No. Do they work for it? Yeah. Can you blame them? Idk. Probably. They really should work more towards creating a Palestinian state in the west bank/gaza, but that could be said for the Palestinian leaders as well, who are still advocating for the entire annexation of Palestinians over the entire land of Israel (“from the river to the sea…”).
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In reality, there are far more than two sides. At least we should look at four groups: Israel and Palestine, crossed with militant and non-militant.
Thinking in terms of only two sides is a trap, because it invites people (not you, but others who have the same starting point) to justify mass killing in the name of revenge or justice or deterrence whatever label they prefer.
No, there are two sides.
One side, Hamas, the Zionist government, and their supporters.
The other side, the civilians of both cultures who just want their supposed representatives to stop fighting.
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Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
Delusional.
It’s ok I told the angry pitbull to not attack the baby I slathered in steak sauce. Anyway, off to golf.
“I think it’d be a big mistake,” Mr. Biden told “60 Minutes” on CBS in a conversation taped on Thursday and aired on Sunday night. “Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again.” But “taking out the extremists” there, he added, “is a necessary requirement.”
I’m not sure how anyone is taking this as a controversial take. Logistically, practically, and the urgent bloodthirst for revenge make this fucking hard to do. But this seems to me to be a pretty even keeled non polarizing take on a complex situation where there is justification for military action against a terrorist group, and that military action must be measured against the safety and needs of a civilian population.
It’s not an even take, because he has not proposed taking out the extremists in Israel.
Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.
Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, where the hell are you getting your information?
Israel still controls all traffic, imports, utilities, and ingress/egress from the area (if it didn’t, they wouldn’t have been able to cut off power, water, and aid). Israel “withdrawing from Gaza” doesn’t really mean much unless Gaza has elected representation and can sustain itself.
Gaza literally has a border with egypt and sea.
In addition, controlling imports and exports is fully reasonable when there is a terrorist organization in power.
It’s funny because your comment is literally meaningless. Which terrorist organization are you referring to? Hamas or Israel?
There is just one terrorist organization in this conflict.
False. There are 2. One has killed about 1400 people, the other has killed over 8000 in the last week alone.
I don’t necessarily know if people think it’s controversial. I think people might be annoyed that they are empty words based on what was said to Russia prior to their Ukraine invasion: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-joe-biden-emmanuel-macron-europe-moscow-1f353699f0be1609da5435c98cfc8022
Not comparable. Israel is an ally, and needs our funding. Russia has been an advocacy or “enemy of my enemy” type more or less for a hundred years
The US is sending mix signals. Biden condemns Hamas, calls them terrorists, and funds the iron dome. Of course Israel thinks they have carte blanche in the region. Surrounded by hostile nations, what other nations in the world acts as aggressive as Israel. They do it because they know they have the full backing of the US. The question is will we live in a world without any Palestinians in the middle east soon - coz that’s where we’re headed.
Israel misspelled their defense system. Should be called the irony dome.
I agree with you. But I’d like to add this. I live in Israel at the moment, I’m not Israeli but I moved here for my job. I live in a pretty safe area, but we still had rockets coming from Gaza and from up north Hezbolla. They were explicitly targeting civilian areas. But iron Dome and the other system, David something intercepted it. Perspective on life changes when you see a flying missile heading your way only to get intercepted by these systems. The area where I live is full of Arabs, Jews, immigrant from Eastern Europe etc. and had several pro-palastine rallies in the past couple of days, and I stand with them. Also, There have been at least 5 to 6 Hamas strikes every hour since last week, they are targeting everywhere around Israel and iron Dome is on full protection.
I just wanted to add, I don’t know what for…
I imagine your perspective also changes if the missiles were landing and killing people, innocent civilians all around you, your house, hospitals, etc. That’s what it’s like for the people in Gaza. It also looks pretty suspicious when there’s lots of immigrants in Israel and mostly Palestinians in a separate cordoned off area (kinda like an apartheid state).
There are quite a lot of palastinians here mate. You should really visit Palestine when you get a chance… the amount of people chanting death to the Jews is kind of absurd.
Please try and check out some telegram groups or sites like Funker etc for leaked footage. Hamas holds them hostage during the knock-off alert. IDF doesn’t target civilians explicitly. The nuances of this war are a bit deeper than what we can convey in text here.
Also see that Israel has asylum for gay/trans people fleeing Palestine or middle east. My point being, Israel does try to be as humane as possible in this war, but some horror stories about Hamas (and other terrorist organisations) are really depraved.
I support peace. That is all. No more bloodshed.
Edit: I forgot to add this… when I said perspective, I’m talking about perspective on life. Not in this war or religion or anything else. Just living and life in general
Israel does try to be as humane as possible in this war
How can you possibly say this when the number of people Israel has killed dwarfs the number of people killed by any Palestinian terrorist group, Hamas or otherwise?
I support peace too but one side of this equation is tipped so far that it’s hard for me to take anyone seriously that claims Israel’s goals are anywhere near the vicinity of “peaceful” or “humane”.
That being said… stay safe. I can’t imagine the situation you’re in.
I mean, ya, there’s a lot of Palestinians there. That’s because Israel took their land. There’s also a lot of black people in South Africa, even during apartheid, too. But tons of them were still pushed off their homes into tiny strips of land in Gaza and the West Bank, so now the majority are in those other places. The same thing happened to the natives in the US.
IDF don’t target civilians explicitly but they also don’t seem to care about them. They’ve killed thousands more civilians than Hamas has with the barest of excuses, all to find Hamas not really caring about collateral. That’s what happens when you drop bombs all over the place. And the fear and terror and horrible quality of life causes things like Hamas. Hamas sucks, I’m sure they would kill more if they could, but Israel has the power in this relationship. When non-violent protests lead to killed or getting your knees blown off, or to nothing at all (like most protests for Palestinians have been for the last near century), when there’s no hope or chance of growth, the average is 18 and you’re probably never going to grow old or successful, then people turn to monsters like Hamas.
Thank you for adding it. It boils down to regular people being hurt, and as an outsider I feel helpless because there doesn’t seem to be a good solution, just less bad ones.
Like there’s constantly a few kids ruining everything for the rest of us.
Now that it’s been a week since Hamas attacked, there’s all these stories coming out about how the IDF didn’t even respond to the attack for an hour, and how many friendly fire incidents keep happening, and how incompetent the ground troops are in general. The certainty in their military might is completely gone and now there’s no telling what could happen. Western allies have basically given them carte blanch approval for genocide and now some of them aren’t so certain.
But he said he was convinced that “the Israelis are going to do everything in their power to avoid the killing of innocent civilians.”
It certainly does more than Hama’s ever did. I like how people conveniently forget that not only operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.
I wrote this long ass comment for another person but I want to put it here too. Hamas having bunkers in a densely populated area under the city is not a “war crime”. The whole thing with Hamas using human shields by setting up camp inside Gaza is BS.
What I mean to say is that when people say “human shields”, they mean when civilians are forced into crossfire to protect the enemy troops. However, there exists the notion of “proximity shielding”.
If you check the Wikipedia page for human shields:
Authors Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, elaborating on their book, Human Shields: A History of People in the Line of Fire, discuss “proximate shields”, humans as shields merely due to proximity to belligerents and assert that this type has become “by far the most prominent type of shield in contemporary discourse”. They say that the proximate shielding accusation has been used by States to cover-up war crimes against civilian populations and that human rights organizations frequently fail to question this charge which they claim is being improperly used to justify civilian deaths.[7]
There are several pieces that discuss this idea, but here are some.
In this analysis piece of proximity shielding, we read:
Our research suggests that human rights and humanitarian organizations have been complicit with this framing exercise and that it is urgent to have a frank conversation about human shields and the legal and political implications of the human shielding accusation. Both in our book and in several academic articles, we have shown that hi-tech States spend considerable resources on media campaigns and mobilize legal and military expertise to justify their use of lethal violence in cities where civilians are trapped.[ii] We describe how human shields, and particularly the charge of proximate shielding, are being widely used by States and their militaries to justify civilian deaths in asymmetric conflicts, and how it has become a major tool in what we have called the ‘erosion’ of the civilian. **
If you turn your eyes back to the wiki page I first linked under the section on Israel and Palestine:
Israel has used the charge, in what has been termed its ‘infowar’ on social media,[56] to explain the high ratio of civilian vs military casualties in its conflict with Gaza. In Operation Cast Lead 100 Gazans died for every Israeli, and the civilian ratio was 400 Gazans to 1 Israeli. Israeli spokesmen explained the difference by alleging that Hamas used civilians as shields. It has been argued that no evidence has come to light proving these claims.[57][58][59][60] In September 2004, Justice Aharon Barak presiding over the Israeli Supreme Court, issued a demand that the IDF desist from the practice of using Palestinians as human shields, and in October outlawed the procedure.[61] The independent human rights NGOs B’tselem and Amnesty International have stated that ample evidence exists in conflicts after that date that Israel has employed Palestinians as human shields. According to B’tselem, the practice goes back to 1967.[55][61]
Finally, this article discusses the politics surrounding the idea of human shields
By these means, entire populations and vast cities are reduced to war space. Prevailing hierarchies of humanity ensure that some places and some people are far more likely to find themselves expendable through the twisted logics and framings of the human shield.
I hope this makes my point clear but basically: Israel is using proximity shielding (aka accusing Hamas of using civilians as human shields) to justify ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and has itself had to outlaw the use of Palestinians as human shields because it was a normal part of Israeli military operations and totally allowed until all the human rights groups finally succeeded in outlawing it, and yet Israel still sometimes uses it.
And yet nobody has ever shown pictures or evidence that they do that. We hear about it constantly, but not one photo to back it up in a world of pocket cameras.
Hamas are a fucking blight, but I’m tired of the same god damned excuses for Israel’s bad behavior. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the whole lot assholes who put innocents in danger.
Civilians, Israeli or Palestinian, should not be pawns. The one immutable fact is, only one side here has any real power.
Exactly. And yet we have these pieces of evidence and we ignore them.
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Palestinian Children ‘Routinely Tortured & Used As Human Shields By Israeli Forces’, Says UN
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And finally this classic from which the iconic photo comes from
Photo:
EDIT: I see the downvotes, from all my heart I say, “fuck you”. These are all examples of times when Israel used Palestinians as human shields and the world ignores it.
“Woops! Another journalist died. We didn’t see the blue helmets. We’re colorblind lol!”
Giant long post propping up a terrorist organization. Fuck yourself.
Its crazy to me the amount of support HAMAS is getting by random people on the internet.
Yes, Isreal has done terrible things, but you have to compare it to what their enemies are doing and would do in their place. HAMAS attacked civilians on purpose, executed babies and elderly. Kidnaped, tortured, and raped. Desicrated bodies, dragging them behind vehicles while cheering. Went door to door executing entire villages.
If roles were reversed, HAMAS would flatten the gaza strip. They wouldn’t give two thoughts about civilians.
Or maybe we’re capable of condemning both! “You have to compare it to what their enemies are doing” hints that you arent. Isreal on the state and military levels is abhorrent shit, AND so is Hamas. One of them being garbage monsters doesnt stop the other one from being
Israeli bombing leveled entire villages in Gaza and the West Bank on the first night after the attack, over 300 children were killed in just that night. They’ve destroyed numerous apartment blocks, hospitals, schools with airstrikes. They struck a convoy of refugees on a road specifically designated as a safe route for evacuation, killing 70 people in one strike, mostly women and children.
It doesn’t matter what occurred before this, to point out the atrocities still on-going doesn’t mean you are a supporter of Hamas, and within Palestine there are several militant and other political groups. To support Palestine doesn’t mean you support Hamas or terrorism.
operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.
Even if this were true, by International Humanitarian Law it does not make it a legitimate war target. One side committing war crimes is never carte blanche for the opposing side to also commit war crimes.
An example, just because Russian soldiers raped little kids in Bucha does not magically allow the Ukrainians to bomb hospital or to execute non-combatants. IHL intents explicitly to avoid tit for tat. Remember that the Russians also justify bombing hospitals and civilian residential buildings by accusing Ukrainians of using them as human shields.
It’s funny how the IDF just classifies hospitals, apartments, UN camps, and schools as military targets and you don’t ask any questions. Just how many HQs does Hamas have?
It certainly does more than Hama’s ever did.
Normally? Yeah I guess.
Now? No way. People have been bombed while evacuating to supposed safe locations or along safe routes. Like many times.
Israeli bombing leveled entire villages in Gaza and the West Bank on the first night after the attack, over 300 children were killed in just that night. They’ve destroyed numerous apartment blocks, hospitals, schools with airstrikes. They struck a convoy of refugees on a road specifically designated as a safe route for evacuation, killing 70 people in one strike, mostly women and children.
