- cross-posted to:
- chapotraphouse@hexbear.net
- technology@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- chapotraphouse@hexbear.net
- technology@lemmit.online
TikTok says it’s not the algorithm, teens are just pro-Palestine — The company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion::In a blog post, the company denied allegations that it has been promoting pro-Palestine content in an effort to sway American opinion.
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It’s almost like teens see something like a genocide being committed, think it’s wrong and say something about it.
Yeah I don’t think teens are particularly pro-Palestine or anti-Israel.
Teens throughout history have just been anti-war and anti-killing-children.
Imagine being a teenager and being against teenagers getting killed. What is this world coming to?
The sheer audacity
Obviously the teenagers are being mind-controlled
I don’t understand why so many stop doing so.
As you get older you learn that things are never black or white, and everything is grey. Global politics are complicated. The world is a giant chess board and Gaza is a pawn.
I’ve heard arguments that Israel should have essentially done nothing if they were good guys, but not retaliating sends a message to those funding Hamas that they should do it again.
Making matters worse, they are surrounded by people that constantly advocate for their eradication, they’ve already experienced such an event in their history, so to say they are more sensitive to it than other groups may be an understatement.
This was their 9/11. And back then the vast majority of Americans wanted to retaliate against Al Qaeda.
And to clarify further there is no “peace” between Israel and would be Palestine. You’re talking about 1 piece of land that three different religions have ancient ties to, with little desire to coexist on it. Chalk it up to just another failure of western powers dividing up the Middle East after WWII.
Short of some scenario where they can emigrate to Egypt or something, I don’t know what the answer is. They’re all bad options.
I am 29 and i only seem to become more radical of a pacifistic absolutists. Sure the world is grey, twisted dark sometimes even. But global politics are much more off a chaotic mess then they are complicated, and they are indeed complicated. There is no excuse to murder innocent people left and right for neither party or country.
It is naive to believe that we can just get rid of borders and become tolerant enough to let people live where they want without some issues but i much rather see us attempt that then maintain whatever we are doing right now.
I don’t think it’s healthy to be an absolutist about just about anything. The unattended consequences start to outnumber your ideals. If Israel hadn’t done after Hamas, Hamas would be empowered to keep doing it. The net effect would be more Israelis killed. Who knows, they may have been invaded by one of the several neighboring countries that would like nothing more than to destroy the country.
I think Ukraine is a better example though. I can’t fathom telling them they should try to get along with Russia. There’s the idea of being anti-war in general, and then there’s allowing a foreign aggressor to come in and take your country.
I think that you really did a good job summing up an incredibly complex issue in a fairly neutral way. No matter how smart you are as a kid/teen, there’s only so much you’re ever going to see play out, and it takes some time to get all the “data points” to start seeing the bigger picture.
As for Israel/Palestine, it’s literally one of the single most complex issues in geopolitics, and while it’s easy for someone reading articles and watching TikToks to just say “if Israel just gave them their land back and everything would be good!”, it’s ignorant of a much, much, MUCH bigger picture.
This is not saying I support any of what’s going on. I don’t think it’s particularly controversial to say that conflicts of any sort are fucking awful, but the reality is that if Israel just did pull out of the West Bank and ceded all the claims, there would be so many knock-on effects that are effectively impossible to predict, with none of them being particularly good.
Realistically, the only way you could ever hope to come to a “simple” solution that doesn’t result in a massive loss of life would be with a time machine.
Exactly. I think you’d have to go back to pre-Hitler to get any sort of major change, but then the butterfly effect comes into play heavily. What does Europe look like if Germany never escapes the grasps of their quite terrible post-WWI restrictions? Maybe all we do is flip the script and Jews are treated like the Palestinians but still in Germany? There’s no way of knowing.
I agree that it’s all awful. I don’t think there is a solution that leaves everyone happy and safe and that’s just the reality of life.
I don’t think there is a solution that leaves everyone happy and safe and that’s just the reality of life.
Sometimes a horrible outcome might be the best one. Germany and Japan were completely humiliated in WW2. Both turned out fine. Perhaps Palestine needs to properly lose this war. I mean, Palestine has lost wars several times against Israel before but they didn’t go through similar learning process that Germany and Japan did after WW2.
IDK, both can be true. Teens might be right in saying something and tiktok might be amplifying that kind of content because it helps China geopolitically. A highly upvoted post on Lemmy literally yesterday was this - https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/13/us/china-online-disinformation-invs/index.html
Tiktok also didn’t censor the major protests in France like Facebook and Twitter did at the time.
Theres only a handful of social media outlets. Tik tok is just not suppressing the Pro Palestine content like Western owned media outlets have been.
We speak lots of " free speech " in the West, but look how quick, German, British, American, Canadian government and media spheres are united in calling Palestine protestors terrorists and supporting hamas.
Its just our lack of free speech being exposed when it goes against the powers that be.
Tiktok also didn’t censor the major protests in France like Facebook and Twitter did at the time.
That proves nothing, it might equally be in China’s geopolitical interest to support discontent and protests in the West. A more interesting question is if TikTok would promote content about the Uyghur genocide the same way.
Well we know for a fact that China has it’s own Douyin (Tiktok) app and that it prioritises stopping any inkling of random social movements/organisation through social media.
So this isn’t really a mystery at all. Within China they are subject to their laws. Elsewhere they follow global norms.
I actually think all the furore about China and Tiktok was really not about Chinese control over Tiktok in the West, but about the West’s own control over Tiktok. Much like how Huawei was booted for not allowing US intelligence agencies to put in backdoors, rather than actually enabling spying itself (this came out last year iirc).
Ironic seeing as Huawei was founded with IP they stole from Nortel. They can fuck off as far as I’m concerned.
From Nortel, Ericsson, Alcatel…
Its how innovation happens. I’m pretty sure the Americans did the same to the British.
Came out where?
There’s a ton of support for the Palestinian people out there. It would strongly appear to be suppressed on commercial social media sites. I can’t say that Tiktok isn’t amplifying it, but as you poke around on open social platforms that tend to censor less, you see a lot more Pro-Palestine news and content. If you go through twitter or facebook and find specific regional bloggers, the content is out there but if doesn’t seem to pass the algorithm
The issue is not censorship, it’s disinformation and Hamas is all over it when allowed.
And conversely the Israeli government is known for its commitment to accuracy and preventing misinformation right?
I agree disinformation is an issue, but it’s an issue across the board on both sides of any issue
I’m skeptical that hamas has the resources to spread much misinformation to us. This doesn’t feel like a “both sides” time.
They literally have the government platform in Gaza and are for some reason believed at face value despite being more wrong than right. They are also amplified by multiple Arab states and their state run news organizations.
Right. I don’t think the Palestinian government has the propaganda resources to match the combined Israeli and US governments.
China gains nothing by Mideast conflict.
Israel - clearly does not care about things like democracy and human rights.
I can see them drawing closer to China.
Russia arguably gains via ties with Iran and decrease of U.S. influence in the region. But, as far as news, reporting, information are concerned, it’s pretty irrelevant, if there’s actual propaganda then let it be shown and debunked, and even Iranian RT right now is barely saying anything surprising to anyone who’s been watching what’s happening on the ground.
Maybe the U.S. upvoted that to discredit China /j
“You’re crazy to believe your own eyes!”
Stupid thing people don’t they like killing?
When the October 7 attack happened my teenagers noticed the one sided media and hamfisted pro Israel propaganda asked what’s really going on. Today’s kids are getting constant propaganda and advertising. They’re not immune but they recognize it and bristle.
When I was a teenager and Yitzhak Rabin was murdered i bought the anti palastine rhetoric that followed for an embarrassingly long time. And we knew that it was Netanyahu. Well, I don’t think we knew until later that he was aware that night of what he was doing. But we knew it was his follower who pulled the trigger.
Israel has already killed 10-20x as many people as died in the Hamas attack, and they’re just getting started.
The amount of pro Palestinian support is overwhelming everywhere. Only newspapers and Reddit bots and paid shills are still spreading IDF propaganda. The rest of the world sees israel for the Nazi’s they are.
I think the Israeli government is authoritarian, and their scorched earth tactics against Palestinians are war crimes, but you’re not doing the cause any favors by invoking the Nazis. Criticize their actual behavior.
They turned Gaza into a concentration camp.
As Jews, they should absolutely know better.
There are amusement parks, beach resorts and night clubs… there’s a few travel vlogs showing what life was like before the attack on 10/7. I was quite surprised to see what was available there after the years of media.
Not saying it was the coastal beauty it could have been, but they had amenities that you didn’t exactly find at Auschwitz or Bergen…
You’re talking about Gaza or Tel Aviv? I’ve been to Gaza man, 95% of them didn’t have clean water in 2014 and that number didn’t change up until today. Gaza itself was a hellhole.
The resorts and stuff you see are on Jewish territory. They’ve destroyed anything nice Palestinians have.
I’m talking about Gaza. I’ve been there too, once they elected Hamas their fate was sealed. The potential was there before they fucked themselves for generations. Israel left a lot of infrastructure in place When they pulled out.
It wouldn’t have been Tel Aviv, they would never achieve the Tech power of that city but they could have been a real nice vacation spot.
They “elected” Hamas. In an election that was never certified, had more votes total than people living there and there hasn’t been an election since.
But even if they legit did vote for Hamas I wouldn’t blame them. Killing Israelis after all they’ve done is just.
So revenge is cool in your books. Interesting. Let’s see how that works out. Not a strategy id suggest.
In the 20s Gaza was a tourist destination.
Getting downvoted for linking to facts, you have my sympathy my friend…
In a context where we have the lies about the hospitals having tunnels under them, that 40 non-existent babies were beheaded and where some key facts about Oct 7 have somewhat unravelled, how far would you even bother policing the words of people wishing for a liberated Palestinian?
The Israelis and their supporters are also notorious liars and frequently try to claim that Muslims or brown people were responsible for the Holocaust in Europe.
They’ve bombed civilians before and the intelligence they send tend to be garbage according to EU after they looked through the reams of documents the Israelis sent them. As an occupier, Israel behaves like a country at war all the time, they lie, kill and cheat perpetually.
I have never heard of Israelis by trying to blame the Holocaust on Arabs. On the other hand. .
I’ll verify that my Arabic family are wildly antisemitic. They don’t denigrate Jewish individuals, mock their appearance, call them filth or anything in that vein. But they’re not just anti-Zionists either. They believe Jews control the world through a shadow network of conspirators. And when you believe that, it fits right in that they must have manufactured a Holocaust to win sympathy.
I think it all stems from anti-Zionism, though. They see a tiny country holding out against the entire Arab world, with the backing of powerful westerners, and their explanation is that the Israelis must have America and the EU dancing on puppet strings. It’s like when a foe pulls off a stunning victory and their enemies say they must have cut a deal with the devil because how else do you explain it. I don’t believe any of that, though I do find the American military support for Israel totally sus and wrong.
Jews were in high positions in the Arab world and iirc lived well. Much of the blame for the rise in anti-semitism is almost purely down to Zionism. Jews came to be seen as colonial collaboraters with the great powers against that region. In Algeria they literally were - the French were able to create a two-tier colonial society by giving Jewish Algerians who were native to Algeria citizenship and denying Muslims the same by claiming cultural incompatibility. Hence, Jews became a colonial force in that country.
In Iraq, Zionists terrorised the Arab (Iraqi!) Jewish community there by bombing Synagogues and cultural centers and collaborated with Iraqi nationalists to force Iraqi Jews into leaving for Israel.
So there are different experiences here, but almost all is down to colonialism and zionism.
Yep great insights. Thank you for adding.
Lol when were these Jews in Iraq bombed and who exactly are the zionists who did the bombing?
Imagine you walked into the camps and saw the smattering of walking skeletons that were left from the multiple thousands of people who had preceded them into the gas chambers or ovens.
I think it’s hard to really imagine what level of trauma that would cause, and how shocking it would be to see those images.
I think that is the foundation of a powerful bond between the West and Israel, and it’s not going anywhere anytime soon.
I find it extremely troubling that Netanyahu and his cronies have said that the only solution to the issues they are having is to exterminate all Palestinians (assuming that quote is accurate) and I do think that their actions are horrifying and deserve criticism, but that’s the government. I have no issue with the people of Israel. I believe that in part these actions are Bibi covering his own ass for not stopping nor even anticipating a massive attack from a known enemy. I understand his desire to root out Hamas, but there has to be a way to do so with more accuracy and less civilian misery and death.
He has said Hitler didn’t intend to destroy Jews until a Muslim told him to.
His son posts Nazi memes on Facebook (featuring Greenwald).
He is also suspiciously happy that his son married a white Scandinavian woman.
He made racist jokes/comments about north african jews in their military and that white jewish officers must lead them.
Wait what came out about the October 7 attack?
Half the people on the list of deaths Israel put out had Lt and Sgt on their names. So they’re soldiers. And the official number has gone down from over 1400 to 1200.
Jesus Christ, so 600 civilians? And I’m guessing it’s over 10k in Palestine now? I’ll have to look for a source to verify this but if you have one in the meantime that’d be appreciated.
I’m saying half because of the list they put out, but apparently it looks to be 700-800 civilians when counted. The list they originally put out on twitter was an image.
These are all still Israel’s numbers, who are notorious liars. And we also know they were shooting and bombing hostages along with Hamas fighters indiscriminately during the battle.
You can see ‘half’ the image have Lt and Sgt on their names, sometimes in full. https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1722045168382021929
The problem is their behavior and rhetoric towards Palestine resembles a sentiment shared by the OG Nazis
The problem is when you mention Nazis to Jews, the first things they’ll think of are Zyklon B, Babi Yar, the piles of children’s shoes at Auschwitz, Mengele, that sort of thing.
And while what’s going on in Israel is terrible, it’s not Mengele terrible, Babi Yar terrible, or Treblinka terrible. So they write you off as just another antisemite, rather than listening to your point.
And yet that was only the very end. The stuff that came before that might as well be a mirror to the way Israel is treating the Palestinians.
No, not really. Nazi Germany lasted from 1933-1945.
From 1933 to 1939, things were mostly non-lethal: boycotting and vandalizing shops, banning Jews from public service or practicing law, harassing Jews, etc. The basic idea was to get Jews to emigrate out of Germany.
The first open ghettos were established in 1939, while the massacres really started in 1941.
If you’re going to compare Gaza to part of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to the closed ghettos that were established in 1940, like the Warsaw ghetto. The period between the establishment of the closed ghettos and the beginning of the mass killings was way, way shorter than the mass killings. Of the 12 year span of Nazi Germany, the best comparison is to a period that lasted for about a year or so, 7 years in.
Nazi Germany really isn’t a great historical comparison to Israel. Honestly, a better comparison is to the US’s treatment of Native Americans, though it’s still not a perfect analogy. The dream of Israel’s far right isn’t to murder every last Palestinian, it’s manifest destiny; an Israel stretching from the river to the sea even if there’s a few small reservations on it.
Netanyahu and his cohorts have explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last Palestinian. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/
I read this, and from what I can tell, he explicitly said they believe they need to kill every last member of Hamas, and a different unrelated person wrote an essay about how they need to kill all Palestinians?
Jesus Christ what a fuckng psycho
You need to look at what’s happening in West Bank.
A craven terrorist attack caused a military response that has claimed 11,000 lives to date, with a substantial proportion of those lives being women and children. This is a horrible thing. Hamas and the Israeli government can both go fuck themselves for the misery they have caused.
That said, AFAIK nobody is sending Israeli troops in to round up Palestinians and systematically incinerate them until all Palestinians are dead.
6,000,000 Jews suffered that fate.
The bombing of Dresden took 25,000 German lives. Nobody called that an attempted genocide.
Perspective is important.
When the Israelis impose a system of racial domination on Palestinians that is objectively worse than Apartheid, I’d say you needn’t bother handwringing about Israelis getting their feelings hurt. Fascists is always an alternative though - they’re politicians have used it themselves.
Netanyahu himself has made racist jokes favouring white Jews over the north african immigrants, so while ‘white supremacist’ also works at that point, you’re back to just saying ‘Nazi’.
Why is it worse rhan apartheid?
Because Jews don’t need Palestinians like White South Africans needed Black people for low wage jobs. So they can genocide them without a thought.
No I meant what evidence do you have that what they are actually doing is worse than apartheid?
Chiefly Nelson Mandela’s own words on the matter and Noam Chomsky’s. Other South Africans. The two-tier colonial system in place and TCM’s recent testimony on what he saw in the occupied territories was enlightening too.
The comparisons to the Nazis are actually inescapable. I struggle to think of a centrally orchestrated and mechanized system of apartheid/oppression and now genocide that’s more similar.
The Israelis have set up a systematic means of rounding up and murdering people until their entire race is removed from existence?
I hadn’t heard.
…you mean at the military checkpoints where Palestinians routinely disappear? How about the fact that Israel conducts human medical experiments on prisoners. Or the systematic rape of Palestinian women. How about the systematic attacks on Palestinian infrastructure that leaves 95% of Gaza without access to clean water. And that was before this current mess.
Grow the fuck up and open your eyes. Israelis are straight up evil.
The Israeli government is straight up evil, maybe.
The Israeli people have been targets of precise statements from multiple neighbors over the years telling them they would be exterminated as soon as the opportunity arose.
Put yourself in that position and tell me you wouldn’t support a right wing militant government that ran on a platform of hard borders and strong military.
How many wars of aggression have been waged against Israel since its founding? How many terrorist attacks? If the nations surrounding them put down their weapons and accepted them, there would be peace in the region. If the Israelis put down their weapons they would be murdered en masse.
How would you like a populace that came within a hair’s breadth of systematic extermination to react when they move to an area and are immediately painted as liars by neighbors who are Holocaust deniers and express the desire to finish the job?
Also if your argument is strong enough there’s no need to add that last part. It makes you seem weak and devalues any merit in your words, of which there is plenty. Nobody wants to see people getting hurt, but to fail to differentiate between the Israeli government and the Israeli people, and to ignore the situation they are in and the precursor to the establishment of the state of Israel, is a mistake.
They chose for religious reasons to slowly invade and genocide a people in an area that was extremely hostile to them.
Historically Jewish people have been given land in Spain and Italy to found their own nation. Both times they sold it and invaded Israel in history.
I have zero sympathy for them, because historically, they’ve been the invading aggressors to the region because they feel they have some sort of religious right to it, and since I’m anti-theist and believe religion is the root of all evil seeing both sides die in this conflict is kind of desirable to me.
Children get indoctrinated into Islam and Judaism and inherit this conflict and its derived suffering from their parents. As an anti-theist, you should be able to see them as victims, rather than see the conflict as something positive.
I understand as a fellow atheist, but I would just say try to have some compassion for people as a whole, even if they believe in stupid sky daddys.
Godwin’s Law was repealed in 2016.
“Godwin’s Law” only said that the comparison to Nazis becomes inescapable the longer a conversation goes (not the common interpretation “whoever says Nazi first loses”). If I remember right he actually went back later and said it’s perfectly fine to draw the Nazi analogy to fascist states.
The Nazis forced Jews into ghettos. Gaza is a ghetto that Palestinians are forced to live in.
Zionists will not however, directly kill every Palestinian. They will indirectly try to kill every Palestinian by colonizing every last inch of land from the Palestinians. The ones that immigrate away will be too scattered to maintain a coherent ethnicity, and eventually their culture will be erased.
So, while practically speaking they’re not as bad as Nazis, they are as effective as Nazis, if not more so.
As someone who stands mostly in the middle, I rarely comment on this issue because every second poster calls anyone that has even the mildest sympathy for Israel’s situation a Nazi.
You people are tiresome and it’s honestly not worth ‘debating’ with you.
An ethno-state is based on race superiority that is committing genocide to expand their lebensraum by dehumanizing their enemies and calling for the indiscriminate slaughter of people of a certain race by locking them all up in a giant concentration camp.
Now where the fuck did I hear they one before? Oh yeah the Nazi’s. It’s almost comical how much israel is a copy of Nazi Germany.
You are correct that I will call every israel sympathizer a Nazi because they are Nazi’s by practically everyx single definition.
Sorry, didn’t read past ‘ethno-state’. Pretty clear where you were going from there. Nice talking with you.
The English language is great. If your friend was recently kicked out of their house by a Nazi and is arguing with them about it, you can see if things get violent and call out “hey, Nazi debater!” and they will both turn their heads, unsure if you’re talking to them or the other guy. Hilarity will ensue from this small confusion, and all will end well.
That having been said, the Nazi will still conveniently forget all their country’s history, will declare they are the “pure” or “chosen” ones, and proceed to cleanse the ones that don’t fit their world view, including your friend.
I stand for the people. I support Israel, but not it’s far right government that wants to kill all palestinian people and take their lands, but at the same time, I support Palestine, but not it’s extremist terrorist leaders.
Wars are fought between two or more governments for their own goals and is a competition who cal kill the other side the most (including it’s civilians).
You can support a country without supporting their government, however people sometimes tend to be lazy and just say “fuck Israel” instead of saying “fuck the government of Israel”, or say “fuck Palestine” by being ignorant instead of saying “fuck HAMAS”.
Innocent people should not be vilified for just wanting to live their lives in peace.
Which is encouraging. It’s been a relatively silent genocide for decades, and while it’s good to see people waking up, it’s almost too late. Kinda like climate change.
Pretty shitty genocide if the population keeps growing…
It’s grotesque to me people that keep repeating this. The accusations of genocide almost universally relate to after Oct. 7. And population growth over a 60 year stretch does not discredit incitement to genocide or actions taken to attempt genocide.
And ethnic cleansing is still genocide. Palestinians are refugees the world over because of Israel. Some stuck in Egypt, the Sinai desert, some in Europe and others internally displaced stuck in Gaza originating from other places in Israel. It all stems from the 1948 Nakba where Jewish terrorist gangs began a massacre and campaign of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.
You mean the less than 1 million Jews in the British Mandate in 1948 who accepted the UN resolution for 2 States and were attacked by the Arabs in the British Mandate and all the neighboring Arab countries? I don’t think you know what ethnic cleansing means. SMH
I’ve still got plenty of friends who support Israel over here in the states, including basically everyone conservative I know.
Interesting, I actually know a couple conservatives that are anti globalism, which justified their anti Israel stance. However, the conservatives I know that are party aligned due to religious preferences… that’s another story
They’re not “anti-globalism”. They don’t even know what that means. They’re just parroting Alex Jones. I don’t like globalism, but conservatives who go off about globalism are actually just being anti-semitic and using Israel as shorthand for “the Jewish secret ruling class”.
Almost like when you take religion out of the picture it’s one country committing genocide against another which is never okay for any reason. Israel can scream “but muh anti-semitism” all they want but it’s a scapegoat. Ignore Jewish/Muslim backgrounds and look at what’s really going on. It’s nothing but a disgusting land grab and genocide that’s been going on since WW2.
The world would 100% be a better place without Israel, and that’s nothing to do with their religion. The country itself is evil and corrupt. They are bigoted and hypocritical. Israel deserves no sympathy or support. Out of all the bullshit I’ve seen happen in the middle east the past few decades, Israel is definitely the most abhorrent and repulsive source of conflict.
What do you think about Hamas? Why do they exist and what is their actual agenda? Is it really at the very top simply helmed by limousine-riding desert kings in Quatar?
Hamas is as bad as Isreal, but they are Isreal’s own creation. Most Palestinians don’t support Hamas just like most Isrealis don’t support their own government. It is two governments trying to commit genocide on the others civilians. Their are no good guys here. Just thousands of innocent civilians being massacred on both sides. The main difference is the US has decided to give one of these governments committing genocide the most advanced weapons available and practically no governments are even trying to help the Palestinians anymore. Not to mention hamas is commiting genocide to take back land the palestinians had a 100 years ago while the isrealis are commiting genocide to take back land they had 2000 years ago while pretending the palestians never even existed and spouting off racist revisionist history.
Except Israel is a country that wants to live in peace and Hamas has IT IN THEIR FUCKING CHARTER that they want to kill all Jews.
And when Hamas actually acts on their charter, the whole world goes shocked-Pikachu-face and condemns Israel for self defense and not agreeing to just be killed
No. Hamas’ charter was written at a time when Israel was committing atrocities in Palestine. It was written in anger by about half a dozen people. Noam Chomsky explains this pretty well. The original charter is basically irrevelent and has basically been disavowed by Hamas.
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Listen to what Chomsky has to say on the matter. If you can’t find it, I’ll see later.
If you listen to what Sam Harris has to say on the matter, then it’s a deal.
The current charter says they would accept the 1969 borders.
“living in peace” is not invading someone’s land, taking their homes, slaughtering them, and putting them in a concentration camp for decades while killing kids when they retaliate.
You mean returning to the homeland after the Holocaust to a country as per UN resolutions , self-defense from terrorism in civilian areas (like suicide bombers and rockets into cities), and unilaterally disengaging from the Gaza Strip in 2005 while giving millions of dollars to a corrupt system that embezzled most of what wasn’t used to build weapons and terrorism infrastructure and teach children to love death and murdering Jews in their beds like they did on October 7th
You don’t get the use the homeland excuse by saying “oh well we were here 2,000 years ago”.
IN THEIR FUCKING CHARTER
Have you read it? It doesn’t say that.
Yeah, Hamas isn’t as bad as Israel, it’s literally a resistance movement to the people that ethnically cleansed their population from their land and kept them in a concentration camp for two decades. The unbalanced condemnation tbph is the result of a concerted Israeli/Western propaganda campaign to obscure the context and nature of the attacks, including the hundreds of Palestinian people killed in 2023 before Oct. 7, and more fundamentally, the fact that Israel has been keeping 2.4M people in a high-tech concentration camp for the last two decades.
The atrocity claims against Hamas from Oct. 7 have some serious evidentiary issues at this point, even including some unknown number of the civilian deaths being attributable to the IDF (literally firing at, shelling and bombing Israeli citizens - though to be clear, there is video of Hamas shooting civilians as well). You compare this to the inhuman genocide being levied against Palestinians now - food, water, electricity, fuel, medicine being cut off for 5 weeks at this point, likely upwards of 20,000 civilians killed, at least half of the buildings in Gaza damaged or destroyed, attacks on hospitals, schools, refugee camps, ambulances, journalists, aid workers, without legitimate substantiation of their repurposing for military purposes - these are crimes against humanity. There is no equivalence here.
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The PA has power in the west bank, but not in Gaza (where Hamas is in charge). They’re not a very effective government, but they don’t seem to have genocidal intent either.
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Do we really need to argue which murderers are slightly less murdery?
The people in charge on both sides are doing their people a disservice by killing a shit load of people which in turn leads to the other side killing even more people.
Is there a surgical removal that could ameliorate this? Like is there an actual “Who” that needs to go if there’s to be any progress? I feel like this situation could use a panel of new eyes to help usher in the future
Hamas shouldn’t be even compared to Israel. Hamas is a fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization, whereas Israel is one of the happiest and modern western countries in the world. In no way can it be said that Hamas is even on the same scale when talking about evil.
How is Isreal not also a “fucked up religious/fascist terrorist organization”?
You describe Isreal as happy and modern as some kind of defense, but having overwhelming military superiorty over neighbors, taking their land, and having extremely close ties with modernized western countries would cause that.
How exactly is Isreal not religious (state religion is Judaism). How is it not terroristic (you kill one of their citizens they kill 10 of your citizens and take your land)? How is it not fascist when Gaza is literally a concentration camp for 2 million people? Two wrongs don’t make a right, and having bigger guns certainly doesn’t make them righteous.
I wonder if the fact they aren’t muslim or as brown makes them better to you?
having overwhelming military superiorty over neighbors
They didn’t start that way. They built that capability out of very real necessity, coming many times pretty close to annihilation.
taking their land
By internationally agreed decisions, and after winning wars, I suppose?
and having extremely close ties with modernized western countries
Yes, that’s a good idea. Every country should do that.
How exactly is Isreal not religious (state religion is Judaism)
State religion is perhaps an alien concept for Americans (which I guesstimate you are), but it’s a pretty normal thing in Europe. It doesn’t say much about religiousity, although clearly Israel has more crazy in that department than Europe, but also quite a lot less than typical muslim countries.
As for Israel, the largest religious group (33% in 2016) is “Judaism/Hiloni”, which is essentially a secularist/nonobserving version of Judaism. The actual number of secularists might be even actually higher.
How is it not terroristic (you kill one of their citizens they kill 10 of your citizens and take your land)?
Terrorism isn’t defined by numbers. It’s defined by tactics and intentions.
How is it not fascist when Gaza is literally a concentration camp for 2 million people?
It’s literally not a concentration camp for 2 million people. You need to look up concentration camps.
I wonder if the fact they aren’t muslim or as brown makes them better to you?
Color has nothing do with it. Islamistic terrorism is a significant enemy of human civilization, however. That indeed does make them better for me.
State religion is perhaps an alien concept for Americans (which I guesstimate you are), but it’s a pretty normal thing in Europe.
Of the Union’s 27 states, only three have an official state religion, these being Denmark (Church of Denmark), Greece (Church of Greece), and Malta (Catholic Church).
Out of 27 countries, only three have official religions and they’re pretty small. Don’t talk shit out of your ass maybe?
Where did you grab that bullshit data from, ChatGPT? I live in a EU country that has an official state religion, and it’s none of those three countries. Or is there some semantic thing going on here? Is it not an official state religion even though it’s directly funded by the government, and government officials attend official religious events regularly?
Don’t talk shit out of your ass maybe?
Right back at you, buddy.
Wow you literally went so “whataboutist” that you actually say “what about” in your sentence.
do you genuinely think israel wants this tiny stretch of land, even at the cost of all of this(thousands of israelis dead, more soldiers die every day, rockets and terror attacks from lebanon, syria and yemen, and all the public backlash) I’ll tell you a hint, they truly don’t and if they did, they won’t take it this slowly, and this carefully not to hurt civilians if they truly just wanted the tiny piece of land, it would have been so kuch easier to just indiscriminately level the entire place (without the need for a ground invasion)
I know I’m not gonna change any minds here as people like you who have already decided israel is the culmination of all evil won’t back down from that belief that easily, but just try to not assume every israeli born is a racist Palestinian hater, and try to think why would they go through all of this, what do they stand to gain or to lose, assuming of course they are rational human beings
btw if it’s genocide for the past 56 years, they are truly really really bad at committing genocide
Yes, the leaders of Isreal want palestine removed from the map. They are not taking it carefully. They are indiscriminately leveling Gaza right now. Please ask the 4000 dead palestinian children how careful the Isrealis have been.
Wanting to commit genocide and having the political capital to get away with it are two different things. I know several isrealis that felt their country was commiting genocide and I know for fact that not all Isrealis are bad. Criticism of Isreal is not an attack on all isrealis just like criticism of Hamas is not an attack on all palestinians.
Getting your death count from a terrorist organization known for lying and inflating numbers is ridiculous.
When Hamas hide and build a shitload of terrorist infrastructure in civilian areas, you evidently get a lot of leveling happening, destroying that terrorist infrastructure.
Israel does more than any other country to minimize civilian deaths. But I’m sure you know about Hamas using civilians as human shields and outright shooting Gaza civilians trying to get away from the area
The health ministry is a medical organization, regardless of being under Hamas rule.
Just like Shifa Hospital isn’t used as a terrorist base.
Terrorists threaten and infilitrate even legitimate organizations in a corrupt government
Just like Shifa Hospital isn’t used as a terrorist base.
Despite the raid ~24 hours ago, and the release, deletion and then re-release of an “uncut” video of the hospital since then, this absolutely remains to be proven. If anything the burden of proof has gone up, after the absolute bullshit they just published about it and about Rantisi hospital.
Also it’s “Al Shifa”, as in, “The Healing”.
For the number of times this specific hospital is used as justification you’d think they would have produced actual evidence for that claim by now.
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if you were right, a ground invasion would have never happened they would just drop a few very large bombs and be done with it without endangering more israeli soldiers
Gaza’s population stands at around 2 million it’s one of the most densely populated places on earth i feel like if they wanted after 40 days there would have been much much more than 4000 dead Palestinian children more in the area of 400000
also i still don’t get why in your view israel wants Palestine removed from the map, if we established it’s not the tiny piece of land itself
Why do they want to commit genocide
With the current situation prior to the attack how much was palestine costing Israel? Gaza cannot supply itself with water, electricity, or food. Israel needs to maintain border security too. Without palestine these costs go away or at least decrease significantly. Israel has already stated they believe this attack justifies them cutting off water, electricity, and food supplies in perpetuity. This in affect will kill most of the 2 million and will cost them less political capitol than bombing the Palestinians.
So why do they want to commit genocide? Money, power, revenge, racism, and religion are the main reasons, but they vary from person to person obviously.
Try to separate the civilians from Hamas, and yeah, starve the terrorists and supply aid to the civilians they have removed from harm’s way.
According to your faulty logic, it would be a hell of a lot easier to literally bomb everything without warning nor humanitarian corridors
You will never ever have a productive conversation with racists or terrorist sympathizers.
Please ask the 4000 dead palestinian children how careful the Isrealis have been.
Statistic provided by the terrorism organization Israel is trying to wipe out for the good of everyone on this planet.
They want the land and the $500 billion worth of natural gas in the sea
have you looked at the territorial waters? in no way do gaza contest them in the ocean
1h, 0 downvotes.
Good luck buddy.
I’d say they’re good at it considering they’re getting away with it.
The world would 100% be a better place without Israel, and that’s nothing to do with their religion.
The world would also be a better place without Islam, but how realistic or ethical is it to seriously call for such a thing?
You can say “the world would be better without Israel” without actually calling for the eradication of the country. I think creating Israel was a historical mistake, but that doesn’t make it a mistake you can just paint over. Solutions must come from acknowledging the current reality and the innocent people who live at both sides of the border and their rights and dignity.
You can say “the world would be better without Israel” without actually calling for the eradication of the country.
As I can also say that the world would be better without Islam without actually calling for anyone’s death. All worshippers of that religion should simply become apostates and no-one would needlessly die. But it’s another thing to force this against their will, which you would be doing in both cases.
Land grab? Can you explain? It looks like the status quo has been maintained since 1967 or so?
Ignoring all the ongoing colonization, didn’t they just take Jerusalem a couple years ago when Trump said they could put their embassy there?
Israel has allowed settlers to continuously claim land from the West Bank, enclosing its territory from the Palestinians who already lived there, preventing the Palestinian Authority from imprisoning settlers or kicking them out, and refusing to pursue legal action against settlers while illegally imprisoning Palestinians for retaliating when they see their land getting stolen without anyone defending them.
A broken tiktok is right twice a day…
As far as I can tell, neither government here has the moral high ground…and I chose the word “government” there for a reason.
It is my understanding from very far away only able to see through Lie-O-Vision that two governments that hate each other because religion are basically taking it out on civilians who just want to live their lives. It’s a tragedy that has basically nothing to do with me yet it does cast my eyes toward my own capitol city with a bit of a suspicious squint.
I’m convinced this whole tiktok is manipulating the algorithm thing is actually US propaganda.
Here’s how you actually “manipulate the algorithm.”
1: take up residency in the comments, and at the same time start a few basic accts that don’t say anything too controversial (day in the life kinda stuff, thirst traps, etc). Establish a basic presence
2: once you amass a following, you start with pretty basic stuff lots of young people agree with - housing/healthcare reform, work reform, etc
3: an important part a lot of people miss - have your own team troll your comments. Stir up shit. The goal is to get people riled up, not move the needle in any specific direction
4: throw out something big (it’s been confirmed that Russia is behind distribution on TikTok of OBL’s “Letter to America” recently). Fight on both sides, tagging in as much of the greater sphere of commenters as you can.
That’s it. That’s all anyone’s doing. Just do this over and over and you eventually drive people crazy.
They did the exact same thing in 2016, they did it in 2020 with BLM, they did it with Ukraine. It’s nothing new
Sounds pretty convincing, but you lost me in the end. Who did “exact same thing” in 2016, 2020, and 2022? Are you implying that Russia and/or China were trying to increase the harm done to the US that way? I’m quite at a loss here
Yes. This is the new age of psychological warfare, and has been recorded occurring at these instances, among others.
100%
Russian trolling is pretty well documented at this point. They overthrew several Baltic nations and bought a lot of breathing room during the 2016 election.
It’s been all over the news and stuff.
US propaganda is so, so bad. Russia and China are awful, but US is no better in this regard.
Have you seen Chinese TikTok vs America TikTok? It’s wild. The Chinese TikTok has videos of scientists and musicians and engineers all tackling major problems. It’s inspirational. The American TikTok is absolutely fucked. There’s clearly heavy algorithm manipulation. At the very least, we know China could make American TikTok not terrible and they choose not to.
The Chinese TikTok has videos of scientists and musicians and engineers all tackling major problems. It’s inspirational
My TikTok FYP is various scientists/science commenters, stand up comedians, chubby goth girls dancing, Magic The Gathering card reviews, and swinger shit.
If you engage only with things you like, you’ll only see things you like.
Yeah, Western Tiktok is just more liberal lol. If you don’t like it, go and live in… China?
Stupid lizard brains are too easily tricked with tribalism and anger though. It takes a real conscious effort to curate your feed like that.
Any nuanced opinion on Gaza gets trashed because both “teams” view you as the enemy. You’re always pushed towards absolutism.
I agree with the latter, but I don’t think it takes a lot of effort to curate a TikTok FYP.
Yeah you literally just like videos and hit not interested on shit you don’t like
A lot of the best sci-fi is coming out of China these days. People who like to theorize about these things point to a population, much like America in the post war Baby Boom, seeing for themselves the benefits science can bring to their lives as China pretty rapidly develops, and being fascinated by what could be next.
So you might need to accept that the most popular trending American social media is venal and insipid because the average American wants to see venal and insipid, while the Chinese population might just be interested in things that interest them.
A little from column A, a little from column B?
TikTok is banned in India so there’s way less anti-muslim sentiment on the platform.
Yes, let’s combat racism with more racism, way to go.
How is this racist? Behavior of BJP mob on Reddit was observable by how r/worldnews looked like depending on time of the day.
Oh so it wasn’t just me who felt that was feeling off in r/worldnews. The comments are horrific at times.
r/worldnews is some of the most diverse hivemind of -isms and -phobias I’ve seen concentrated in one subreddit. The flavour just depends on the time of day.
Turns out a lot of very reasonable people actually did leave Reddit over the summer and now the trolls and crazies have an amplified voice.
I’m so glad to see other people mention this because damn that sub has been wild lately.
55% of Islamophobic tweets originated in India: https://apo.org.au/node/318935
Racism is when you don’t want muslim people to be oppressed and murdered? 🤔
Islam isn’t a race, and Indian Muslims aren’t Arab…they’re Indian, like Pakistanis are Indian and not Arab…
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If you aren’t anti-oppression or anti-apartheid you aren’t progressive
Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.
The israeli Government is not the only one with blood on their hands and while nothing can excuse what the IDF is doing, nothing can excuse what HAMAS is doing too.
Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is also bad for Israelis.
You literally listed off everything Israel is doing. Good job.
Israel’s killed over 11k civilians since Oct 7th.
Israel’s bombed over 20 hospitals.
Israel refused to take their hostages back even when Hamas offered them in exchange for the Palestinians hostages Israel has. Then bombed the locations they know hostages were at.
Hamas is using hospitals as staging grounds to fire rockets at Israel, over 9,500 rockets so far since Oct 7th.
The hostage exchange was for a ceasefire that Hamas wanted so they could regroup and start attacking Israel from stronger positions. And they only offered 15 of the 200+ hostages. It was fucking bullshit, and Israel was right to reject it.
nothing really found in the hospitals yet - https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-11-16-2023-6c7daa3b8c3a6b8dddf186ce631dfaad
We know Hamas fighters have been using the hospitals to stage rocket attacks, and fire out of. Whether there is an actual base of operations hidden in them is beyond the point, Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to fire at Israel from. They have said as much, they fight from among civilians to get Israel to kill civilians so Israel looks bad to the world. It’s how Hamas operates.
where is your citation?
edit: even if there is, that does not justify the shelling of hospitals by the IDF
We don’t know that, that’s just what Israel claims. Israel is known to lie about that stuff.
yea exactly I’m sick of all this whataboutism about Hamas. Hamas is the sole response to the atrocities that the idf has started. they hold all the power in this situation, they have killed many many many more people then Hamas ever could. They have also committed and are committing insane like Nazi level war crimes and all we get is… okay but Hamas bad.
also lets not forget… most Palestinians didn’t even want Hamas. they havent had an actiall election in almost two decades. Because it’s literally not safe enough because the idf keeps bombing them.
stop all the back and forth finger pointing, America could pull funding from isreal, instead of this E fleas posturing. If isreal wanted peace then we could hve peace but there will never be peace until the idf stops bombing refugee camps and hospitals lol.
so sick of all this whataboutism, obviously any killing is wrong but Hamas is just a glorified token a red herring being used to justify brutality on a Holocaust level scale. and we need to stop allowing it.
they have killed many many many more people then Hamas ever could
Not for lack of trying. If it weren’t for the billions of dollars spent on the Iron Dome every year, and the Israeli intelligence apparatus allowing them to evacuate their cities before attacks, many more Israelis would be dead. Attempted murder by Hamas is still atrocious.
most Palestinians didn’t even want Hamas
Hamas still had broad support as of 2020, so no most Palestinians do want Hamas.
stops bombing refugee camps and hospitals
Tell Hamas to stop using them as bases of operation and firing rockets at Israel from those locations then. Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians, that’s their goal in the war to make Israel look bad.
Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians, that’s their goal in the war to make Israel look bad.
It pains me to admit but that works and I think Israel does look bad because of this. Also when you have people indoctrinated to the level that they will gladly act as a shield to become martyres it is hard to fight clean :( I haven’t thought about this possibility before
Israel’s killed over 11k civilians since Oct 7th.
Bullshit statistic until it is verified by independent sources. Currently, the only source for that number is Hamas and they have a great reason for exaggerating it.
In past conflicts, the death toll provided by Hamas (if you call the Ministry of Health in Gaza that) was largely accurate and didn’t differ much from independent counts conducted by the UN.
This article has an example on how it was in a conflict in 2014. There is another article that had more examples, but I cannot find it. It was from the Guardian I believe.
Great list
Israel is not allowing anyone to to conduct outside verification, and hasn’t for literal years. They deny UN workers visas, disallow any humanitarian worker from entering or leaving Gaza ( https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/04/03/unwilling-or-unable/israeli-restrictions-access-and-gaza-human-rights-workers)
but Hamas is not fighting outside verification. The UN has also repeatedly verified hamas’ death counts in previous instances.
That alone should tell you whose statistic you should be more trusting of, and it’s not israels.
Except that in this case, the UN is explicitly saying that the numbers they’re quoting cannot be verified and they’re merely cutting the numbers Hamas is giving them.
So the question is: if the IDF cannot be trusted, why should we trust the terrorists?
I feel hospitals (warcrime) were visible from satellites and independent sources covered it.
Attacking a hospital is not a warcrime if the hospital is used for military operations.
The only sources that the hospital was being used for military operations was the IDF who is known for lying. They even showed pictures of metal objects in the same room as an MRI. Literally something you would never do because an MRI will destroy anything metal.
https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1724782542304559215?s=20
https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-b124ea2e7bfcb81027.htm
All they do is lie
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html
They said a calendar was a “terrorist list”. A literal calendar.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/need-comic-relief-watch-israels-pr-stunt-collapse
They even higher actors
Attacking a hospital is not a warcrime if the hospital is used for military operations.
It is, you have the right to defend yourself if the opponent is attacking from inside. But no even if the enemy is doing a war crime by using non-combatants as protection you are not allowed to engage them in that situation. You are allowed to inspect a hospital or ambulance to make sure the enemy isn’t using it to transport or hide munitions. You are not allowed to attack anything marked with protected signs, such as the Red Cross, red crescent, or red diamond. If you as a solder break these rules, even on a direct order you are still personally responsible and might be judged in national or international courts. In practice, it might be hard to get soldiers to stand trial for these crimes. But it has happened. All my education in this has been in Swedish from the Swedish armed forces so some translations might be wrong.
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Netanyahu be like… “Hmm, they are going to attack but if I stop them I may still go to jail, but if I don’t then I get more power… Let me have the Kushners put me in touch with Donny to see what he’d do.”
That’s the only difference you see? Not the extreme disproportionality of the bloodshed? Not the comparisons between civilian casualties on each side?
Hamas is like the cave-dwelling dwarf people that America made up for the middle-east to justify killing over a hundred-thousand civilians. Seriously, are we to believe that Gaza has a bunch of Gringotts vaults underneath it?
Seriously, it is clear that the bombing is not about saving hostages nor destroying Hamas. Would it surprise anyone if they found out that Israel’s far-right government is like the ex that attacks you and then punches themselves and screams like a Karen that you attacked them first… and then when asked for evidence because their wounds look self-induced, they yell… you don’t believe me you antisemitic Nazi!?!
Oh no! Not a German overcompensating for their countries role in the holocaust.
Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is for Israelis.
- Israel has effectively removed freedom of speech in Israel and are incarcerating thousands of dissenting Israelis (believe it or not this is bad for Israelis)
- Israel has policies for killing soldiers and civilians if they are going to be taken hostage (dying is generally seen as bad for everyone)
- Israeli helicopters indiscriminately shooting at the festival are responsible for most of the deaths at the festival on the 7th (pretty bad for Israelis)
- Israel has killed more Israeli hostages than Hamas and has tried to refuse accepting the return of hostages (I’d be more scared of Israel than hamas if I was a hostage right now)
- Israel has a 99% civilian kill ratio when targeting hamas in this latest operation (IOF just being a shit army, bad for Israelis to be linked to this)
If you want to dismantle Hamas for the the operation on the 7th, by the same logic we should dismantle Israel 10x for all their operations since 2003 such as operation lead.
Israeli helicopters indiscriminately shooting at the festival are responsible for most of the deaths at the festival on the 7th (pretty bad for Israelis)
Do you have a source for this?
Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.
Sure, and if you are those things its going to be hard to get enthusiastic about voting for Biden.
If you aren’t anti-religious-fascism you aren’t a civilized person. But it seems that more and more “progressives” are falling in that category.
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And that’s why we need to let the fascist religious ethnostate commit genocide
No, you’re confused. I’m against Hamas committing a genocide.
Do you really consider them progressives though and not just violent anarchist? Progressive to me means forward-thinking. If you think it is a good idea for future generations to destroy civilization and attack people then you’re not a progressive to me.
Violent anarchists are Libertarians, whom literally state their mission is to remove all government limitations at all costs.
How Libertarians avoid the anarchist label is beyond me. They’re like weird corporate anarchists, compared to the actual anarchy movement.
Progressives are people who value the freedom of religion for all people, the freedom to be who you truly are, even if that’s the opposite gender you were born as, and the advancement of human rights on topics concerning body autonomy and well anything humans rights related. We also tend to firmly believe in addressing income inequality, poverty, availability of medical benefits to everyone as a human right, and an end to monopolies and corporate malfeasance.
I think a lot of conservatives try to paint Progressives as anarchists because we riot. But they ignore the literal mission statements of the right wing which is that smaller government is better and that people should run their lives completely freely. THAT is anarchy my friend. And what that gets us is a dying planet full of pollution with infinitely rising cost of living and slavery to corporations, and we’re dangerously close to that now. You’d better hope like hell Progressives win this fight, because everything you enjoy, everything that’s good in your life, is a result of Progressive policy. Or are you actually going to sit here and argue policies like Reaganomics are a good thing despite almost 60 years of data to the contrary?
Honestly, humanity needs to get over religion as a whole. Freedom of religion ultimately leads to religious extremists attempting to force their baseless beliefs on everyone else, which is the exact scenario we find ourselves in today. That’s why instead of focusing on religious freedom, we should focus our efforts more on STEM.
NOT ONE SINGLE RELIGION holds up against even the Socratic Method. Theism is unfalsifiable and overall useless to society. Now that we have STEM, we have methodologies to help us grow our understanding of the ACTUAL nature of reality, and not some sci-fi fantasy gobbledygook!
Ah yes, the nuanced thinking of a 5 year old - everything is black and white and everyone who doesn’t agree w me 100% is evil
Do you know what genocide is? It’s pretty much the most black and white issue there could possibly be. People who disagree with me on this ARE evil. There is actually such a thing as truth.
If it’s so black and white, then why are there numerous international councils, courts, and meetings where accusations of genocide are fiercely debated?
Ironically the same mindset held by hamas and israel.
I mean if you think apartheid south Africa, Jim crow laws and indiscriminate killing of second class citizens by the police or army are issues deserving of nuanced debate you need to take a look at yourself.
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Ah yes the choice between democracy (fascism lite) and fascism.
It’d be nice if Americans finally overthrew their system or just voted for other parties/independents.
Also not everyone here is from the US btw.
Democracy is demonstrably far less oppressive than fascism.
If you are actually anti-opression, the choice for Democracy is a no-brainer.
My point is that the incumbent party and the opposition are both anti democracy and authoritarian compared to the rest of the world.
Look at the police brutality against peaceful activists in the capitol last night and tell me if that was China that wouldn’t be used by the American media to tell Americans how authoritarian China is.
This is happening under the democrats, the alleged protectors of democracy. Last time I checked freedom of speech was a democratic ideal in America and the right to protest was a human right.
You’re running in nonsensical circles my dude. First you say “Democracy” is “fascism-lite”, now you’re saying that to be “anti-Democracy” is “authoritarian”.
Did you slip up and accidentally reveal to the wrong community that you’re anti-Democracy, or did you poorly communicate your original intent and write out the wrong statement?
The ultimatum posed to me was democracy vs god emperor, in this context it is clearly putting democrats as the democratic option and republicans as the theocratic authoritarian option.
Me saying in response:
democracy (fascism lite) vs fascism
Is not me saying democracy is fascism, its me saying the two options both look like fascism from outside the US.
Good thing our democracy in the US is exceedingly healthy and citizens vote directly and not through sellout politicians. Oh wait
It’s just not a Democracy, unfortunately.
Bad faith actors weaponizes this against the concept of Democracy itself.
Lol, yet.
Fascist nations aren’t exactly known for not invading weak nations with excess money.
Swap excess money for excess natural resources and you’ve got the US
Wow you’ve solved the whole issue we’re discussing.
/s
The current problems in the middle east are mainly due to western powers. Whether that is the British or French drawing random lines on a map over 100 years or america destabilising resource rich countries.
Things that make it look like the US is the bad guy once again:
- the US and Israel funded Hamas to take power away from the more secular left PLO (not the first time funding religious extremists)
- the US tried to stage a coup after Hamas took power in a democratic election
- Gaza has oil and gas deposits that Israel is selling contracts for
- Israel has released plans to build a bigger competitor to the Suez canal that would benefit the US as they would profit from international trade and not Egypt who isn’t aligned with US interests (read Muslim country)
- going through Gaza would make this proposed canal straighter therefore cheaper to build and faster to navigate
- US arms companies benefit anytime a country is buying stockpiled armaments
Unironically we wouldn’t be in this situation if the US and israel weren’t dicks about everything.
That’s the idea, yeah.
Can you say “The European Protectorate?”
Neo-colonialists the lot of them sadly
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say when the current president is supporting genocide.
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I have skin in the game, because if America aids in a genocide, I as an American am partially responsible. I’m okay with being arrested, or even a second coup attempt by trump, if it means preventing a genocide.
Sure, but who is the “oppressor” and who is the “oppressed” can flip on a dime based on context.
A lot of oppressed people eventually find themselves to be the oppressor.
If you take a hard stance joining any side, you are at some point siding with an oppressor.
I don’t need to describe how horrific and oppressive Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was. But you take a hard stance siding with the Jewish people, you are siding with the oppressor in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I don’t need to describe how horrific the situation in Gaza is, but if you take a hard stance siding with Palestine and Hamas executes a bunch of festival goers, you’re siding with the oppressor.
The only way to be anti-opression (and according to you, a real progressive), is to not take sides but take every situation as it is and support the best possible outcome for everyone.
Israel doesn’t represent every Jew that ever lived around the world.
Yes I support the Warsaw uprising.
Yes I support the dismantlement of apartheid states.
These are not conflicting stances.
If the oppressed become an oppressor my stance can change on them. Not taking the side of the oppressed while they are being oppressed is cowardly and indirectly supports the status quo/the oppressor.
I must have missed history class where the Warsaw Uprising attacked a peace festival.
Being oppressed is not a license to become a monster yourself. I refuse to condone cold blooded revenge (both Hamas and IDF).
That the festival was for peace in Gaza is an onboarding lie spread by the IDF. The festival was simply in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. The motto was “friends, love and infinite freedom”, so just about a regular rave.
Sadly mandatory: This doesn’t make it okay to slaughter and abduct the attendees.
Alright what about warcrimes committed by resistance fighters and the allied forced during ww2?
If you support those groups even though they have done bad shit then you’re a hypocrite and you should try and understand why you consider them differently.
Hamas wants to get Palestinian’s killed by Israel, that’s their goal. They want their own people to die so Israel looks bad and maybe Hamas can get Saudi Arabia to attack.
That’s worse than what the allies did.
Hamas wants hostages to do a hostage swap for Palestinians that Israel is holding hostage in their prisons.
This is true of any organisation fighting a nation state.
The IRA did hostage swaps with the British government and this was one of the reasons there is peace in northern Ireland.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/18/prisoner-swaps-cornerstone-northern-ireland
Edit: looking at tavarins comment history it is most likely they are a Zionist mouthpiece. Hope they are getting paid and not doing unpaid labour ❤
At this point i support hamas uncritically because israel is an apartheid state and its stepdad, the USA, is the largest state sponsor of terror in the world.
You’re demanding to view this as “good team” / “bad team”. Fix that first because it stops any hope for peace.
Did looking at Nazis as the bad guys stop peace?
But no I’m asking if you support critically or uncritically the allies in ww2.
If you support the allies even though they committed war crimes and you don’t at least uncritically support an oppressed peoples struggle then you are at best a hypocrite and at worst a racist.
Interesting, so do you support the oppression of women in the US, or are you against the oppression of women?
Whatever Palestine does to free themselves from oppression is justified. Israel has never been oppressed by Palestine.
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If the Jews had had a group similar to Hamas during the Holocaust, any rational person would say that’s a good thing, as it might have lessened the horrors the Nazis could put them through. So yes, if the victims of a genocide retaliate against the perpetrators of it, that is good. Learn critical thinking skills please.
Critical thinking - would a little Jewish strike group attacking German civilians make the Nazi party hold back and lessen the horrors, or would it have scared the Germans into further supporting the Nazi party and lead to an even more outright assault on Jewish people, making the horrors even worse?
It would have made it worse. Without a doubt, the Holocaust would have been even worse.
You need to be honest with yourself, is this about protecting human life, or do you just fetishize violence against people you hate?
Hate to break it to you but violence has been the solution in every successful civil rights movement.
All your rights we’re violently fought for and defended at some point in history.
Saying killing Nazis would have made the holocaust worse has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve read. How could it be any worse!?
It’s the kind of progressive that only counts things that affect you personally
You’d think the fact Biden is significantly trailing in most swing states would be a sign for Democrats to wake up and offer something better. Or you know, not support the ethnic state doing a genocide. As this comment shows, instead of blaming the party, it’s the voters who have the right point of view who are shamed for not bringing themselves to support the party. They’re shamed for being on a high horse instead of compromising on their values and supporting a system that causes genocides. Sometimes the Democrats convince leftists but after enough time something like this happens, then they’re cast as the enemies causing the other party to win.
You can’t win as a leftist in this situation, “oh you don’t want to support the party enabling a fascist ethnic genocide? Well it’s your fault the fascist will win then!” Eventually it’s just like fuck off. The Democrats made it clear they don’t want a candidate with an almost certain chance of beating Trump, I mean they helped him get the nomination in the first place. If Trump wins again it’s because the Democrats didn’t do the bare minimum to select a candidate who actually connects with the voters they need. Blaming the people who are actually on the right side of every issue for their failure is more of a confession.
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Everyone’s pro-palestine. They’re just fucking people caught in the middle of some retarded bullshit. Every time someone gets killed, that entire family is probably radicalized, and they’re right to be.
Israel has unrelentingly taken the worst possible approach to the problem, having learned nothing from their own experience. They’ve made the worst possible mess of it, which is no surprise considering it was made by a bunch of people trying to make the Bible come true like dipshits.
Algorithm probably plays a sizeable part in that, but as an older gen Z fella I have become indifferent to both countries of this conflict. Both Israel and Palestine just race with each other who can check the most boxes in the Geneva Convention rules list. Just leave those 2 to sort this mess out for themselves, It’s not like we get a Holy Site bonus effect by owning Jerusalem.
Or just put a stop on this, but this is a naive thinking.
That’s pretty reductive on the Palestinian side no?
Considering more than half the populous wasn’t even born when Hamas took power.
To be fair to them, it’s not as though the Israel Palestine conflict is black and white. It is pretty well known to be one of the most complex conflicts in human history.
Just about any statement that isn’t very well researched and laboriously constructed is like 95% likely to be reductive to some and offensive to others.
I’m sure someone reads this post as reductive, and I am only tangentially referring to the conflict.
Edit: beyond this comment we see people continuing to try to distill a multigenerational war down to a paragraph. Brilliant. Y’all should start writing history books since y’all have such a firm grasp on it all!
It is pretty well known to be one of the most complex conflicts in human history.
It’s really not. It’s a land grab by a colonist ethno-state that drummed up some bullshit about that land being their destiny when they really came from what is now known as Iraq (and honestly who cares where). They intentionally make the issue “complicated” by putting ethnicity at its center, making even valid criticisms of this colonization punishable as a hate crime. But in the end, it’s not confusing. It’s just a land-grab wrapped in an ethnic/religious skin sort of like a Trojan horse.
I think some citation is necessary for the assertion that the Jewish people were not historically from the Levant region, and have no ancestoral “claims” in Jerusalem and the surrounding territory. I would love to see some anthropology studies or papers on the bronze age Israelites being proto-Asyrian or Persian and not one of the Canaanite tribes.
I’d also like to point out that basically every war ever has been and will probably be a land grab, wrapped up in some rationalized or causative skin. That stretch of land in particular has been conquered over and over again throughout human history, and the inhabitants forcibly immigrated and emigrated during many of these changes of power. Mesopotamia has been birthing empires since humans discovered it and it became a cradle of human civilization.
By your logic, they should share the land. That would also be an acceptable solution as well. Probably better, actually.
How do you feel about that? I’d love it if they could coexist peacefully, wouldn’t you?
I sure would, and that is what I’d argue for. I’d love it if both sides would agree to revert to the '67 borders, or even draw up and negotiate new borders if that is required at this point. Both sides have equal “claim” to the area, and this is a needless pseudo-civil war. Without the US and Israel’s surrounding Arab neighbors pouring money and ideology into it, the original '48 plan may have settled into a workable 2 state solution, but who really knows.
I also know that I have no skin in the game on either side, and honestly my opinion doesn’t matter beyond the fact that the US is allies with Israel as a democracy in the middle east that they can leverage towards favorable geopolitical stability, and which I have little power to effect. I just wanted to ask about what appeared to be dishonest propaganda that tries to conflate Israel with foreign colonizers like England, Portugal, Spain, etc, and erase pretty solidly agreed upon paleo and anthropology. We shouldn’t whitewash in either direction.
No it’s perfectly simple: Hamas, Kahanites and the like are fascists and ruin it, on both sides, for everyone, with their warmongering.
The only real mistake you can make in this conflict is see it as “Muslims vs. Jews” or “Palestinians vs. Israelis”: It’s decent people all over against assclowns and even entertaining those two “vs.” there is playing right into their hands.
Side note: Did you know the victims of the Hamas attack were largely Smolanim? Hippie Kibbutz kind of people, travelling into Gaza doing good work, just like those next to the West Bank travel into it to help Palestinians with olive harvests to make it less likely they get shot at by Settlers. Netanjahu and his Kahanites couldn’t give less of a fuck about them, which you also see reflected in them ignoring their families, they’re like the #1 critics of the government right now.
The conflict itself is really not that complex. It’s yet another example of runaway apartheid. The complexity comes from the global power and military positioning considerations for the US and its western alies. But that’s not really related to the conflict itself, but rather to the bloodthirsty maw of imperialism
the bloodthirsty maw of imperialism
Antisemitic Zionist (yes, that’s a thing) Christians are a pretty big factor, too.
I’m definitely guilty of reductionism and offending people with my views. I don’t hold tightly to them, overall. I don’t like the indiscriminate murder of the innocent, but I also think that comparing this recent exchange of pleasantries between Israel and Hamas to Nazi Germany is offensive in and of itself.
Of course, the rhetoric that both sides of this filthy conflict use serves to display the deep hatred that exists ay the core of it.
Ahh yes, that’s a good take, I forgot that the Gaza Strip area is extremely young compared to the average, but please educate me then. I wasn’t suggesting that the Palestinians deserve this for supporting or voting for Hamas, they have their justified reason.
As I recall Hamas has initiated massacres (and before, also installing military buildings in civil areas and probably some more). Just to not sound biased of course Israel had made its fair share of war crimes like bombing civilian areas where military buildings weren’t even present and bunch more probably.
Of course, it’s absolutely brutal observing this even more so that the Israeli minister didn’t give 2 shits to the Pope’s request (ironic), but what can we do? Can we really put a stop to this without escalating things further and risking creating a bigger conflict than it currently is?
The difference is that for one side the “violations of the Geneva convention” are not being carried out by the duly elected government 🤔
Yeah. Like obviously no one thinks that what Hamas is doing is in any way right, but at the same time Palestine has been shrinking. Palestinians have been treated poorly for decades, and they have no recourse.
It’s hardly surprising that an organisation like Hamas would crop up. People are being erased and they want desperately to continue living.
I cannot truthfully say that I wouldn’t lash out in violence if my life was threatened.
Hmm haven’t heard of it, but I believe in your statement.
There’s always someone in here to say that both sides are equal.
+20% Monthly Piety and +20% County Conversion Speed
This are the bonus effects for owning it! Makes your dynasty so much more powerful if you then divert from your reign’s religion. But be prepared for an holy war against you if you do so.
(this is ck3 btw)
Both Israel and Palestine just race with each other who can check the most boxes in the Geneva Convention rules list. Just leave those 2 to sort this mess out for themselves
Wow.
Please educate me then. Narrowed down to this conflict only Israel killed HUGE amounts of civilians but Hamas militants initiated this entire conflict by creating massacres all over Israel.
Of course, I’m not stating that Israel or Palestine is doing the right thing, it’s just sad (and tiring) to see another war where BOTH sides don’t take civilian lives into consideration at all. What’s your disagreement for me being indifferent? I would be a pretty happy person if someone could put a stop on this entire conflict, but this probably won’t ever happen.
“Narrowed down to this conflict only”. There. Thats my explanation. Casting a century of genocide aside and focusing only on this conflict is silly.
Also, you’re operating under the assumption this is a war between Israel and Palestine, but Palestine is not a country Israel decided to be at war with. “Palestine” is what remains of the obstacle to Israel’s legitimacy. I
Your assumption is totally understandable but our debate would need way longer paragraphs since this massacre has numerous amounts of conflicts starting from the 40s.
Yes that’s correct, I was indeed under the assumption that Palestine exists as a country. Thank you for pointing this out.
I think people’s issue is that you (the west) is funding one side of it.
I’m pretty isolationist too though. Pull the funding to both sides. Let them figure it out themselves (Israel will probably not exist in the end of this scenario).
Israel has Nukes. Desperate people with Nukes is not a situation we want to reach. It’s so much more complicated then people are willing to admit.
Yeah you’re right, another point that I should’ve made an extensive research before making my point.
I think an issue that this event has really highlighted is that governments and the people who live there are not the same thing and often have conflicting beliefs
Israel is at the front of the war on the west, from Syria to Lebanon and Iran. It’s in the west’s interest that they exist and be strong to be a force in the middle east and defend the west from falling to jihadist rule.
IMO there are big risks consuming news & opinion from any single source.
Whether it’s the CCP manipulating the TikTok algorithm, Russia buying ad space on Facebook, or American conglomerates pushing narratives on western mainstream media, there will be implicit biases everywhere.
The only real answer is to get news from multiple sources with diverging perspectives, try to find where facts overlap, challenge your own implicit biases, and form a perspective in line w/ your values.
Seeing America blame TikTok for pushing propaganda is the pot calling the kettle black – and honestly more of a distraction than anything else.
The real important issue is that people are dying, and the existing power structures are doing jack shit to stop it.
I wouldn’t trust TikTok
Maybe it’s not so much they’re “pro-Palestine” but anti-genocide.
when the majority content type dominates the platform
surprise
pikachualgorithmI don’t think an algorithm is responsible for the fact that most sane people are generally against genocide. People being pro-Palestine in this specific situation is a humanitarian response and should not be causing any amount of concern because it is the morally correct position here.
HOWEVER, the fact that we just witnessed the fucking letter to america go viral on tiktok, wherein a soul crushing amount of people publicly stated they agree with a fucking jihadist manifesto, is cause for a massive amount of concern. Tiktok definitely needs to face consequences for letting that happen. We also can’t excuse the audience for that type of behaviour. Whether it came from a deliberate propaganda campaign, or a sketchy algorithm, or just mass stupidity, audience members need to be better. If you read the letter to america and you think bin laden was right, you’re a moron, and you’re contributing to the problem.
The entire point of an app like TikTok is to stir stories and headlines so they get more clicks. Everything is for the algorithm.
