- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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The aversion to reading is always a red flag for me. Reading is a pillar of human intelligence.
They’d be mad if they could understand anything that wasn’t Facebook memes and bad email chains.
I don’t find reading books appealing. But I do look up things I am curious about and read few news articles I come across. Reading a book isn’t the only way to gain knowledge but if they aren’t reading/learning about anything then that’s a problem.
Reading narratives to escape into the fictional world and skimming articles for information are both literacy (reading). There are many more kinds as well. They all count.
For me it depends, reading books is hard for me because it feels like a chore that never ends. Even if it is a thrilling story, it’s just hard for me to focus for long enough to make any progress. Might be ADHD idk. But at least I keep reading news articles and other things that are relevant, because obviously I want to stay informed about what’s happening in the world, especially when elections are around the corner.
Have you tried an e-Reader? Helped me with my ADHD, went from 0 books a year to about 2 dozen works this year, from fiction to Marxist theory.
I don’t see how it makes a difference? What do you think that makes an e-reader more convenient for you?
Super convenient, and I can obscure the length of books that is otherwise intimidating.
Those are really good points for getting an e-reader!
i guess I will try it in the future
I recommend getting one you can flash KoReader on!
I thought this was always obvious. His whole appeal was ‘he says it like it is’ and ‘he’s brave enough to say what we’re all thinking’.
That’s why scandals didn’t affect him, he never pretended to be virtuous like most of the other Republicans do.
A third of people in any society have authoritarian tendencies and will vote for the strong man ‘that will set everything straight’, and it’s always a failure of mainstream politicians that allows these people to get into power (either by not motivating the other 70% to vote for their project, being too divided, or by going into a coalition with that party).
Details are confusing. These people like “I’ll fix all your problems” with no actual substance, and then when their problems are not solved, they like hearing “it’s the
JewsImmigrants fault”.Solutions are not even desired by these people, just a scapegoat for all their woes.
Yeah, it’s not about solutions. It’s about punishing the ‘other’. Deflecting from the actual source of everyone’s economical backsliding (the billionaires skimming money off every part of economic activity).
MAGA is popular for the same reason other nationalist, fascist movements have risen over the course of modern history: as a response to Capitalist decay. MAGA isn’t popular for genetic reasons, intellectual inferiority, or other reasons like that, but as a common class interest. All of the descriptors in the OP are consequences of the driving factor of class interests, not the drivers themselves.
Fascism is most often represented as an alliance between the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie proper, driven by the Petite Bourgeoisie, as monopolization of Capital results in competition becoming more and more difficult, and the Petite Bourgeoisie faces Proletarianization. To prevent the Petite Bourgeoisie from joining the Proletariat in solidarity, the Bourgeoisie proper turns their hatred against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat.
What does this all mean, in practical, American terms? Small business owners, landlords, ie the “middle class,” is shrinking in power, so the Small Business Owners are aligning with billionaires like Musk and Bezos against immigrants, workers, unhoused peopled, gender/sexual minorities, women, ethnic minorities, and more.
How do we fix this? Grow the Petite Bourgeoisie and restore their position? Absolutely not! That’s when fascism is established. Trying to “turn the clock back to the good old days” results in dramatic reductions in worker rights and a solidification of power.
What we need to do is establish Socialism. A victory of the Proletariat, a folding of the large monopolist syndicates into the public sector so they can be centrally planned for the public good, rather than privately planned for profit, is the way forward. This is the way to escape fascism’s rise. This is the way to defeat MAGA.
I recommend reading the book Blackshirts and Reds, fascism’s irrationality has rational, material origins, that can be understood and defeated, and it isn’t in the “marketplace of ideas.”
Jesus Christ stop spamming the same regurgitated Marxist post everywhere. At least reformulate your “socialism is the solve to everything!” post in a couple ways, or just only post it once per thread.
That’s definitely a great analysis, thanks!
No problem! I encourage reading the book I linked if you want to understand the materialist basis for fascism and Communism historically, fascism’s irrationality is born from rational class interests, and in knowing what causes fascism we can know how to stop it.
This seems extremely naive to me. I’m not saying there’s nothing there, but it seems to exist outside of the harsher aspects of reality.
e.g. Russia turned socialist, but look at it now, and China too, but look at it now, and even the USA was turning toward socialist tendencies, but look at it now. The Power of the People only works if people will expend effort, but since people are lazy (most) and greedy (even moar-er), the wolves will run the henhouse and turn the people into slaves. We should rise up… but we’d rather take a nap.
Man, I desperately hope that I’m wrong. And I freely admit that my vision is clouded by the storm of shit that surrounds me. But even so, what good does thinking in such terms do? Either the conservatives and therefore Project 2025 fascism is going to win this next election, or else we wait 2 years until the midterm elections and see how that goes, then try the presidency all over again two more years after that. This Russian Roulette goes on and on… and on and on… and on and on… and on and on… and… well, until either they win or someone gets tired of it and takes democracy away on the other side as well. It does no good to think 100 years ahead, when we are about to lose our democracy in 2 months to 4 years from today.
<End rant>
So how do we turn these people against the billionaires?
He really is an accurate representative for his base: the worst scum sucking garbage alive.
MAGA is popular for the same reason other nationalist, fascist movements have risen over the course of modern history: as a response to Capitalist decay. MAGA isn’t popular for genetic reasons, intellectual inferiority, or other reasons like that, but as a common class interest. All of the descriptors in the OP are consequences of the driving factor of class interests, not the drivers themselves.
Fascism is most often represented as an alliance between the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie proper, driven by the Petite Bourgeoisie, as monopolization of Capital results in competition becoming more and more difficult, and the Petite Bourgeoisie faces Proletarianization. To prevent the Petite Bourgeoisie from joining the Proletariat in solidarity, the Bourgeoisie proper turns their hatred against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat.
What does this all mean, in practical, American terms? Small business owners, landlords, ie the “middle class,” is shrinking in power, so the Small Business Owners are aligning with billionaires like Musk and Bezos against immigrants, workers, unhoused peopled, gender/sexual minorities, women, ethnic minorities, and more.
How do we fix this? Grow the Petite Bourgeoisie and restore their position? Absolutely not! That’s when fascism is established. Trying to “turn the clock back to the good old days” results in dramatic reductions in worker rights and a solidification of power.
What we need to do is establish Socialism. A victory of the Proletariat, a folding of the large monopolist syndicates into the public sector so they can be centrally planned for the public good, rather than privately planned for profit, is the way forward. This is the way to escape fascism’s rise. This is the way to defeat MAGA.
I recommend reading the book Blackshirts and Reds, fascism’s irrationality has rational, material origins, that can be understood and defeated, and it isn’t in the “marketplace of ideas.”
This is why the Left always loses.
The Right puts forward a Ronald Reagan or Donald Trump. They give great speeches and stir up people’s emotions. The Left tells people to read a book.
People still talk about Emma Goldman and Rosa Luxemburg because then understood this; they stirred the people up and got them excited.
Instead of suggesting a book, why don’t you try naming an actual candidate that people can vote for? We’re going to have the 2026 election a lot sooner than we’re going to have a Socialist uprising.
Bernie was the candidate to vote for, and look what happened
Bernie would not have established Socialism either. Even if the DNC was in lock-step with Bernie, Bernie would have established a Social Democracy. Far better for the American people, but it would be a temporary solution just like FDR’s Social Democracy eroded over time.
just like FDR’s Social Democracy eroded over time.
Unlike Lenin’s communism which was immune to capitalist propaganda and still exists today.
I can explain what went right and what went wrong with the USSR, including the events leading to its dissolution and their material basis and what would be similar and what would be different if the US went Socialist, if you want, but the short response is that the Material Conditions of 2024 US Empire are fundamentally and entirely different to 1917 Tsarist Russia, and to compare them 1 to 1 is false.
Bernie was super popular among young voters who were too inconvenienced to actually go out and vote for him.
This is just my personal experience, but I think it reflects a larger issue. Younger people were not ‘too inconvenienced to actually go out and vote’; they wanted to support the party that they felt aligned most with their values, only to be ignored and betrayed in favor of the DNC’s neoliberal matriarch.
Back in 2016, a group of us, mostly young people, caucused for Bernie Sanders. We had a strong turnout, with more people in our group than for any other candidate. The next largest group was for Hillary Clinton.
The people running the caucus seemed to have their own agenda. They told those supporting other candidates that their choice was “nonviable” and that they needed to switch to a “viable” candidate. Then, they physically ushered them to stand with the Hillary group while they [the staffers] “figured things out”. Many of the attendees were first-time caucus-goers, so they didn’t know any better and assumed the staffers were just being helpful by directing them.
For those of us who had caucused before, it was clear what was happening: the staffers were trying to inflate Hillary’s numbers. When we tried to speak up, we were told not to interfere or risk being removed.
It was obvious to us that the DNC was working against Bernie, ensuring the nomination went to their chosen candidate. Even Trump acknowledged that Bernie would have been a tougher opponent to run against.
There are plenty of reasons young voters don’t vote as often beyond laziness. Frequent moving, inexperience with the process, lack of knowledge of when primaries happen, ignored by campaigns because they don’t have a history of voting, etc.
But yeah let’s just call the kids lazy. I bet they should get off your lawn and stop smoking pot, too.
What happened?
The Left failed to get out and support him 100%. Pete Buttigieg, Warren, and a dozen other candidates split the vote and the regular Dem establishment got the most middle of the road candidate they could.
Which gets back to my original point. Instead of sitting around reading books and arguing about the Third International the Left should be a machine that can get people elected.
The book is supplementary to the comment, I explained the big picture in my comment. Blackshirts and Reds isn’t a call to action or an explanation of what to do, but an examination of fascism and Communism, who they served historically, and the material basis for them.
Voting for Harris won’t stop fascism, because it won’t stop Capitalist decay. You can even see her trying to appeal to small business owners, attempting to “turn the clock back,” in her own campaign. Neither will voting for Claudia De La Crúz, PSL’s candidate, nor will Stein, and obviously nor will Trump.
Electoralism cannot solve the conditions giving rise to fascism.
The answer is to join revolutionary orgs like the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO). Only through organization outside the electoral system does the Proletariat have any hope of steering the ship and seizing the reigns.
The Right puts forward a Ronald Reagan or Donald Trump. They give great speeches and stir up people’s emotions. The Left tells people to read a book.
The US Empire is far-right, they can field candidates supporting the status quo in both the DNC and GOP. Liberalism is the status quo, taught from birth. Leftism requires reading, because they don’t teach it in school, they censor leftism and shun it. It’s a struggle, yes, but it’s a winnable one.
Thanks for proving my point.
I ask for one simple thing; a candidate that I can support. You couldn’t do that one tiny thing.
Why don’t you try actually listening to what people want instead of telling them what they should do?
If electoralism will not establish Socialism, what is the point of recommending a candidate? The best candidate you can vote for is Claudia De La Crúz, but she can’t get 270 votes to win, because she isn’t on enough state’s ballots. Stein will not establish Socialism, she’s a Social Democrat, and Harris is firmly right-wing. Trump is Trump, obviously he isn’t the answer either.
Your desire for a simple “vote for this person and everything will be alright” does not exist.
The thing is there is nothing actionable at all in that rhetoric. There’s a lot of Marxist jargon and a lament that voting can never work, but the only guidance is “establish socialism” with no suggested actionable moves because we can’t just wave a wand and make that the case. If you can’t envision and recommend a democratic strategy to get there, you aren’t going to get anywhere near your objectives.
The answer is to join revolutionary orgs like the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO). Only through organization outside the electoral system does the Proletariat have any hope of steering the ship and seizing the reigns.
There is no electoral strategy to get to Socialism because it’s nearly impossible, just like asking the board of directors to hand the reigns of the company to you.
You advocate for letting others chose the government while just sitting out and protesting and hoping the people formally being given power by the voting system you say not to meaningfully participate in would heed those protests?
Or are you saying that such groups shall go beyond their stated methods and go to violent revolution, in which scenario I’d ask for a single example of “socialism” achieved through such ends that didn’t install a pretty terrible authitarian regime that merely took advantage of social unrest to seize power?
The answer is to join revolutionary org
Why? When is the revolution going to happen? Where and when are we supposed to gather?
You keep on proving my point.
De La Cruz is unknown to 99.999% of the voters.
AOC, a NY Congress member is known to almost all voters. Everyone has heard of the Squad.
I’ve watched Socialists/Communists talk about the revolution since I was in middle school, and it’s always “just around the corner.”
Like I said, why not try to get some people elected in the next cycle?
Because electoralism cannot establish Socialism. The Squad are not Socialists, they are Social Democrats. The only Socialist you can vote for is Claudia De La Crúz, and she cannot win because she cannot get 270 votes.
I am not “proving your point,” it is physically impossible to do what you’re suggesting.
Guess what? 99.9% of the people in the country would be happy with having FDR’s New Deal back in place.
Again, you prove my point. You’d rather dream about an ideal Socialist state then work to make things better right now.
Take your own advice chump
What a smart way to build a powerful alliance.
Attack someone who posts anything critical instead of even trying to engage.
Do you ever look in a mirror?
Take your own advice chump
If you think that’s a terrible attack, blame Mellow Yella 13, who I was responding to.
Instead of suggesting a book, why don’t you try naming an actual candidate that people can vote for?
$16 billion was spent on the political campaigns of the 2020 election. $16 billion! Roughly $8 billion per party. The deeply uncomfortable truth is that the oligarch class has nearly full control over which candidates have the funds necessary to have any chance at winning an election. There are rare exceptions, sure, but most candidates are either oligarchs themselves like Trump or Bloomberg, or they have sold out completely to other oligarchs (like JD Vance belonging to Peter Thiel)
The Left beat Donald Trump. Even when Trump and his toadies cheated and staged a coup the Left beat his ass.
The Left has skins on the wall. Don’t fucking forget it.
The Left beat Donald Trump.
Well, everyone to the left of fascism beat Trump. Biden, like all liberals / capitalists, are on the right as they always end up prioritizing profits before people.
It’s what this person does. Check their post history and you will see how often they flog that specific piece of literature.
I recommend many. Blackshirts is just the most relevant both for understanding fascism and contextualizing AES, as well as being more accessible than Marxist texts. I encourage liberals and left-leaning people to read theory constantly. Heck, here’s an “intro to Marxism reading list” I commented earlier today that another user requested I make.
Thanks, but I’ll just disengage.
It’s sad but true that the Right falls in line while the Left waits to fall in love.
The evidence doesn’t support that claim. Libertarian candidates for President get more votes than leftist candidates, by far. Compare the leftish Democrats coalescing around Biden in 2020, and Harris this year, to the Republican politicians who get “primaried,” and the prevalence of RINO vs. DINO accusations. Look at the votes in the House to select Jeffries vs. Johnson.
It’s an old political truism.
Not a presented as a scientific fact.
Genuine question from someone socialism curious: my understanding of petite bourgeoisie was they were upper class but non capital owners, like doctors and lawyers, but i guess business owners and landlords fit too. But Trump’s support is largely non college educated white men. When I think of a Trump supporter I think a mechanic in Pennsylvania. I am thinking of the majority of teamsters based on their internal poll. To put a finer point on it, fascism under Trump seems to be driven by the proletariat. The petite bourgeoisie, if anything, is solidly in the Harris camp precisely because of its concern about fascism.
America is a bit unique, it’s made up nearly entirely of Labor Aristocracy, ie beneficiaries of Imperialism.
The Petite Bourgeoisie are Capital Owners that must labor, small business owners and the like. The lack of college education doesn’t mean they won’t be held back from becoming business owners, and the dominance among the religious and white is because of fascism’s cultural characteristics, explained in the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds.
Fascism can also be described as Imperialism turned inwards.
Interesting, thank you for the response. I’ll give that book a read, and I appreciate the direct link!
No problem! Feel free to DM me if you have any questions. That site is maintained by a comrade here, @Edie@lemmy.ml, it does a great job with the site!
Why not both?
Clearly some people are attracted to far-right ideals without being in the petite bourgeoisie and some people who are in it are even repelled by such ideals, plus there is the whole domain of the “highly educated” who tend to be less attracted to far-right ideals and yet are often generally more prosperous than most shop keepers and similar and some even work in similar business structures (such as Architects with their own Studios or Lawyers with their own small Legal Practices) hence would count a that kind of petit burgeouisie.
I would say that it’s a mix of what you point out (so people’s petit burgeouis status or, as I would put it: “people who have just enough material wealth to think they’re wealthy but without the education and worldliness to understand that they’re nowhere close to real wealth”), certain character traits such as one’s level of Empathy and Self-awareness, one’s breadth of life experience (not in term of years but of how many different things one has done and seen and kinds of people one has met, which would explain why city people are less likely be attracted to the far-right that more provincial types) and one’s style of thinking and practice with things like analysing real world situations and trying to solve real world problems (which would partly explain the effect of Education, the other part falling into breath of experience, specifically in the form of how much information one has the tools to understand).
This is without even going into the environment one grew up in and lives in: sometimes that kind of thinking is so widespread in one’s family and were one lives that showing the social cues of far-right belief and even believing it is a natural element of fitting in if only for one’s own protection, similarly to how people tend to be religious when coming from a religious family and living in a religious community.
It isn’t an iron-clad rule, but a tendency. Individuals vary, groups act on aggregates.
They don’t like to read more than a couple of sentences.
tl;dr?
wordn’t
I know we don’t do gold here, but you have done something worthy of praise. So, I pledge to give a few dollars to your instance (lemmy.world).
Exactly
Yes.
Honestly I wonder how much reading comprehension they struggle with. Like the average reading level is 8th grade, if that iirc. I swear they drop out as soon as there are big words cuz they get pissed they can’t understand. People that lean left are clinically shown to be more* (not not) open minded, and I imagine are the ones going and googling when they don’t know or have someone right there they trust to explain.
It’s an emotional thing. They base their beliefs about how the world works based on what makes them feel better about themselves. Everything else is just backtracking from the conclusion to find a justification for it. And anything that doesn’t fit that narrative gets thrown away or ignored.
The odd part is how often that works. Like, I went to work Monday through Friday, therefore I should go to work on Saturday, right? That’s… that’s… that’s… not how that works, or at least not how it is supposed to. And by extension, humanity has survived on earth for my entire lifetime and for many others besides, so s-s-surely this is not the end for our species? (based on what evidence though?)
Though at some point we see that the level of cognitive dissonance is far too high to be explainable purely by lack of intelligence - (almost) nobody is that dumb. And also there are literally people with PhDs and even MDs who were prescribing Ivermectin rather than the COVID vaccine, so it’s not something that correlates perfectly with “intelligence” as in logical acuity, rather than emotional whatever (agility I think is the current term?).
The era of information is over, where people are considered “smart” if they know more things or can do more. Now we are entering a new era, seemingly characterized by not merely misinformation but active sources of disinformation. Now, survival of the fittest depends not only on individual emotional agility but also extensible to one’s “tribe”, as in when presented with two mutually exclusive set of facts, which one will someone choose to believe? (On the one hand we have 1+1=2, while on the other, we can hear words literally from someone’s actual mouth, but the talking heads can manage to convince people that they did not see what they saw or hear what they heard and definitely what was meant was not meant - I’m saying that some people might legit be too dumb to live, sorry if that seems unkind, it distresses me too but if it is what it is, therefore…, =2 it is then).
If I had to categorize myself I would say that I am a pragmatic idealist.
I have a concept of a world where people tend to work together and generally operate in methods and manners that are mutually beneficial for the betterment of all.
That idealism is tempered by my pragmatic understanding that stupidity is praised and given friendships and social connections because no matter how many smart people there are the stupid people will always outnumber them.
And the stupid people don’t know that they are stupid.
So you cannot pretend that things will work out the way you think they will because no matter how stupid you think the people are around you they are far more stupid than that.
They will destroy you and themselves just to prove to you that being smart and capable is not enough to succeed in the world.
They will do horrendous things to you in order to prove to you that people do horrendous things to people.
And they truly in their heart of hearts and soul of souls before the Lord God Almighty believe they are doing the right thing when they do it.
My politics are left but my optimism is non-existent.
I do want to add to that very quickly that I do not believe that this stupidity is tied to IQ.
My sister has an IQ in the 160 to 180 range and she’s the dumbest motherfucker I’ve ever met in my entire life. She is sadistic and enjoys destroying happiness and joy and anything that she can get her hands on while she herself has accomplished nothing and done nothing with her life. She’s willfully and intelligently stupid, so don’t assume that just because somebody is smart that they are not stupid.
If I may? I think there is room for hope, but it depends on where you place that hope. For instance, I don’t believe that democracy will prevail in the USA for much longer - setting aside the Russian Roulette that we play every single time (more often than 4 years bc Congress), there is still that SCOTUS ruling that has already given the sitting President the power to legally assassinate their political rivals. The wheel keeps turning, and the ratchet keeps it always moving forwards towards the grand design of those who have power to implement such things.
But while there may be no more hope for that, what will come afterwards? People will still need things - so farmers will still farm, service members will still serve, scientists will still learn about the world, etc. Granted, much of that will be replaceable with automation, but e.g. the internet did not completely replace books, and this next transition too will be harsh but something will carry forward.
And since we do not know what or how etc., I adopt an attitude of “we don’t know”, rather than either pessimism or optimism. But since hope is mandatory for human existence, I also choose to have it (plus if I’m wrong, humanity will cease to exist, so who would be left to care anyway? it is definitely a win-win bet for me there:-P).
Something like half of US adults cannot read at a 6th grade level. That’s like reading for plot. That’s reading a couple paragraphs about like “Sally moved to New Jersey from Maine when she was 17. She went to college at NYU, where she met her future husband Jake. They got married and now have two children.” -> “Where did Sally meet her husband?”. A lot of people struggle with that. And we kind of expect them to keep up with politics.
Some of that is their fault. They don’t try. They don’t want to be literate. But a lot of it is a failure of our public education system. But that is largely the fault of conservatives who don’t want to fund it.
You’re also not going to find a lot of those people on a platform like this that’s mostly written, and where the norms generally a somewhat high level of diction that adheres to standard english.
Some want to listen - others merely to speak.
And the main reason they’re not happy is that they got left behind by the evil fucks they keep voting for. It’s beyond maddening.
I had an old lady get emotional over a government subsidy offered to help reduce some of her septic system expenses. It was the first time in a long time the government ever helped her she said. It felt good to help.
Then I had another old lady tell me she was going to die and it was going to be my fault and I deserved to go to hell because that same rebate program ended and there was no funding left.
One step forward one step back.
But they have flags!. So many flags!
Plus, they love the Jesus!!
The other side has LGBTQdsfapdkfopsdkf+ flags, so many colorful flags…
The difference is, I support people to have any kind of sexuality or gender or life or love that they want, I actively want them to have those rights.
But I don’t hang those flags all over my car, my yard, my clothes, my pets, etc. Maybe a few people do here and there, but I don’t feel so threatened in my values that I need to constantly reaffirm it and display it to the world. Most people feel this way, even though the majority of Americans support these rights.
This is why you see far, far more Trump propaganda than ANY kinds of special awareness flags. Which are totally different anyway. One supports an idea. One worships a man who wants to police ideas.
gasp! But muh daddy ain’t know them flags, and we fear the unknown!
Plus they rejekted teh Jeezus!! Graar!
Would you say then that the Jesus is not… ahem (bad incoming joke alert) “Optional”? (and vice versa)
Okay, I’ll see myself out.
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It’s the dixiecrats after we took the one thing they loved: Jim Crow and their ability to be superior to anyone who isn’t white.
We even dared to elect a black person president over them, they will NEVER forgive us for that, it went against everything they believe in.
You don’t understand, to them this is justice for our unimaginable crimes against them, we took the only thing they had in life.
Would be kinda funny to double down and elect a black woman next. Bet they would just love that.
Wait, isn’t she Indian? Did she just BECOME black?
/s
God I hope we get there…
You don’t understand them.
He was a MAN, he counted, well, when they didn’t call him a monkey.
A woman can be dismissed, anything she does will be considered impotent and meaningless, it doesn’t matter.
The south has its own logic, you can’t understand without going back 200 years in time.
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And that’s how the orange turd built a cult…but constantly whining and complaining when Obama was elected. 8 years of slowly stroking the flames, birther crap, pointing out every single minor inconvenience and a failure of the president.
My wife is Indonesian Muslim, hates Kamala for what we’re doing in Palestine and told me not to vote for her. I’m still voting for Kamala but man that was a hard conversation I never would have expected. Seems like the military owns everything these days
The hard part is, she gets to pick between genocide, and genocide with fewer rights for women.
I don’t understand why she’d pick the latter, but anger does crazy things.
In defense Kamala is actively in power with Biden and has had many chances to voice and make change on this issue and she hasn’t. We know what we will get with Kamala, and it’s a lot like Biden all over again
Well, seeing a lot of the positives Biden has done, or tried to do but the repubs shut down purely out of spite, I’m still fully voting for Kamala.
We also know what we’d get with Trump. He’s pretty forward about wanting Israel to finish the genocide quicker.
If your presidential plan is “Trump is worse,” you have no plan, that’s the problem. Trump is obviously worse, but you need to stand for something and have policy and actions.
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My wife is Indonesian Muslim, hates Kamala for what we’re doing in Palestine and told me not to vote for her. I’m still voting for Kamala
Have you considered having solidarity with your wife? Did you convince her to vote Kamala, or is this still a wedge issue? Or are you not even telling her?
Your copy/pasted comment is telling people to defeat MAGA with socialism. But first let’s get it to hard mode by having MAGAs take over and do Project 2025, right?
A Socialist revolution is “hard mode” whether the Democrats or Republicans are in charge, I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that the establishment parties would be any friendlier or more hostile to a literal revolution.
I also don’t know why you’re saying I am suggesting voting for Trump either, not once have I encouraged it.
Only one of two people will win. You’re asking this person if they considered voting against the less awful choice.
I’m sure we’re both pissed off about how protesters are treated right now. Only one of two parties is saying we need National Guard, deport the protesters, that presidents can execute whomever as an Official Act, that the military should be used against the opposition over speech.
Yeah, so go with your “nach Trump kommen Wir” plan, it will be equally hard to achieve socialism either way, NBD. Not sure why it isn’t, “equally hard either way so let’s pick the ones at least pretending women and LGBT people should have human rights,” but you do you.
I am asking people to listen to directly and indirectly impacted people, rather than thinking they are more “enlightened” than them for voting for the genocidal establishment. Additionally, both parties have been cracking down on pro-Palestinian protestors, Walz even sent in the National Guard after BLM protestors, that’s not a real point.
No, you are deliberately picking which impacted people you want to hear the voices of. Not these ones, huh?
Have you considered having solidarity with your wife?
Have you ever considered that people aren’t a hive mind?
Oof, that must be a weird conversation. Am Indonesian.
Any conversation touching Islam adjacent lost any nuance with the general population more often than not . Not saying your wife is one, but let’s be honest the education quality here is abysmal and at the same time we’re number 1 muslim by population. Also our “Netizen” is notorious for wrongly attacking any issue they misunderstood.
One of our top singer got berated nationwide because she wore a skirt with a random arabic text in it, people thought it was a Holy script and she’s Christian.
I kid you not one election season I saw an angry mob with a banner that said USA = COMMUNIST !!
Most have hard enough time just to get by day to day so I get it, they take anything to blame. With corruption top to bottom it’s a sad state all around. I’m grateful it’s still a relatively peaceful affair though, at least here in Java.
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They’re both the party of genocide. No matter what, your next president does genocide. Your vote helps decide which you get to protest under.
And you’d at least get to protest under Harris. Trump openly wants to go Tiananmen Square on you if you protest.
The rest of the world is looking at the US with contempt right now. Far-right germany, britains and the aussies are the only allies you have left. Fuck you.
Not a yank. Don’t care. Too late anyway the damage is done I hope you guys pays for the support for genocide.
Trump is coming for your country next.
But you won’t. Nobody’s accountable. Nobody was accountable for iraq. Nobody was accountable for lybia. Your country lies and lies and you’re too cowardy to face the criminals unless they are poor ghettos black people. They can create war out of lies and destroy countless lives, not only are they free but they get media attention to endorse whichever warcrimers gonna suck dicks next.
You make me sick.
So you’re saying Americans should those up against the two party system. So, a revolution. Overthrow the system. Which means killing each other. And oddly, every violent revolution ever has ended up with a more authoritarian result.
So your plan to reduce the killing in Palestine is… More killing in the US followed by a US regime that would help Israel finish the job faster?
Historically, revolution has resulted in more democratization and less “authoritarianism.” From the brutal Tsarist Regime in Russia, to the fascist slaver Batista regime in Cuba, to the nationalist Kuomintang regime in China, revolution reduced inequality and gave more power to the people compared to their absolute squalor before.
Read Blackshirts and Reds.
The rest of us, and themselves, hang for it.*
Too many minorities that support their system forget that they’re are minorities, and have no seat at the table. They’re just useful idiots for now, and bodies in the end game. Think of people like Rafael Cruz, Nimrata Haley, and Vivek Ramashwarmy. The fact that two of them had to change their name to have a seat at the table now is evidence enough.
Testing
My daughter calls them trumpy grumpies and I thought it was a good name.
my mother who works at a high-class nursery full of milfs, calls them yummy mummies and I think that’s a good name
\end tangent
I’m never happy and it didn’t turn me into a MAGA dipshit. I don’t think I’m even an asshole most of the time or at least I try not to be.
I think the larger thing lacking is two-fold.
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Perspective. These people lack the ability to look at the world objectively and outside themselves to see the larger picture of where they fit in the world. They are unable or unwilling to comprehend anything remotely complex.
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Empathy. They are unable or unwilling to walk a step let alone a mile in anyone’s shoes but their own.
On 1, someone pointed out to me that a lot of people who are susceptible to MAGA are people who don’t know what it is to be an expert on something.
They don’t have PhDs and MDs and JDs in their social or peer groups. They assume everyone’s knowledge of complex things is as superficial and uncertain as their own; literally they do not recognize the difference between things stated as fact versus things stated as opinion. Their day-to-day practice, as far as anything complex, is to let their emotions rule; practice makes perfect.
The thing they exercise most is their amygdala, and that’s why conservatism causes an enlargement of the amygdala.
oh, number 2 is worse than you think. I picked up on a talk show on the radio the other night with a guest author who wrote, “Toxic Empathy: How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion”. They’re actively teaching to avoid empathy,
In Toxic Empathy, Allie Beth Stuckey argues that empathy has become a tool of manipulation by left-wing activists who bully people into believing that they must adopt progressive positions to be loving. She explores the five most heated issues through which toxic empathy is deployed: abortion, gender, sexuality, immigration, and social justice.
This is what fills the airwaves around here of which a lot of elderly and rural citizens are inundated with daily.
Compassion is also frequently lacking.
Compassion is a natural result of Empathy: those who feel as if their own a bit of other people’s emotions don’t want others to be unhappy if only because that makes them feel a bit unhappy themselves.
This also applies to positive emotions, so those with higher Empathy are more likely to want others to feel good as that makes them feel good hence their notion of A Better World also includes what’s good for other people rather than purely what’s good for they themselves.
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Maybe you should blame others more, especially foreigners, liberals, and education. Your problem is that you’re not blaming the right people.
I’m never happy and just blamed everyone collectively, rather than specific groups. I’ve been around humans enough to know we’re all equally awful.
That’s so weird… with some exceptions, I’ve found most people to be pretty nice and friendly once you get to know them. I would never have said “we’re all equally awful”… I think I want to keep living in my world rather than yours.
That’s okay I don’t want to live in your world either
Why not? What’s the benefit of being so bitter?
An enlightened pessimist.
Reading my own thoughts while having not written them is trippy.
I hadn’t considered projecting my self-loathing onto others…
Only then will you become a real
JediMAGA.I think you’re right. I need to pick a nationality to hate.
I’m thinking Icelanders. They don’t know how to use vowels, get free electricity from the earth, and their cops hardly murder anyone.
“There’s two things i can’t stand; people that are intolerant of other people, and the Dutch.”
How contemptible.
Don’t forget tHe BaByKiLlErS
It’s a serious culture issue. Big companies make lives worse and since th big companies own the media (except tiktok) they lie and blame the issue on something else.
I am so, so glad Democrats have finally woken up to the fact that Republicans are not just misinformed Democrats. There’s no amount of facts we can throw at them to make them stop being terrible people. They’re not going to suddenly go “oh my God, I was wrong!” This is who they are.
My take is that with Harris courting endorsements from many formerly rank-and-file Republicans, this drives the point home. If anybody is still confused that Trump’s party is VERY different from what the Republican Party used to be, the Cheney’s endorsing her should settle that. Anybody still unconvinced is wilfully ignorant at minimum.
If anybody is still confused that Trump’s party is VERY different from what the Republican Party used to be, the Cheney’s endorsing her should settle that.
And then you have the braindead .MLs who argue that awful people supporting the normal candidate over the fascist means we really need to rethink our support for the normal candidate 🙄
A basketful of deplorables, as it were.
They’re dixiecrats, they used to be the worst part of the democrats before LBJ dared to sign civil rights, an unforgivable sin.
they are selfish.
That’s where all of those symptoms stem from.
selfish greed.
Lots of them are, but it’s stupid comments like this which make me shake my head. The left will lose 2024 with their fake moral superiority and fail to understand what happened.
Again.
get your maga out of here.
*The left will lose 2024 with their fake moral superiority…"
it is not a fake moral superiority, the left has a practical moral superiority demonstrated by material policy that positively affects the lives of people.
The left beat you in 2020 because of their tangible moral superiority by providing civil protections and material assets for the rights of the electorate.
conservatives are legally trying and succeeding in stealing the rights, liberties and property of Americans.
Americans don’t like that, and voted to the left.
they’re fighting back by prosecuting and removing the selfish conservatives who are harming people, and are creating laws and funds protecting everyone,
civil rights are not a “fake” moral superiority, they are a tangible moral superiority effected through practical, respectful policy.
The smug feeling of moral superiority and the continuous willingness to correct the other’s behaviour is THE reason why people can’t stand “left/wokism/whatever”. Continously pointing out on fake “offensive words” just to show off how morally superior they are.
That how it looks from outside.
(For context i am not American and don’t guve a fuck about orange man neither for so called “christian values” so don’t try to paint me as a conservative MAGA supporter.)
“moral superiority and the continuous willingness to correct the other’s behaviour”
it is tangible practical moral superiority coming from the protection and support of civil rights and liberty.
rather than taking away employee rights, the left is giving employees rights.
rather than taking away minority rights, the left is legally protecting minority rights.
those are not imaginary feelings, those are practical and effective policies.
"The smug feeling of moral superiority and the continuous willingness to correct the other’s behaviour is THE reason why people can’t stand “left/wokism/whatever”. Continously pointing out on fake “offensive words” just to show off how morally superior they are. "
this is largely your imagination and pointed conservative media and a poor excuse for selfish people to continue abusing vulnerable people for their own gain.
offensive words are not fake, and there’s nothing wrong with being considerate toward everyone.
the fact that you don’t understand haven’t considered the difference between protected civil liberties and imaginary fake word hunts from the left (that are actually perpetrated by conservatives banning books from libraries) demonstrates exactly how successful the conservative media you consume is.
consider what you’re saying, consider the information around you.
anybody accusing the left of instigating moral panics while the right is literally banning books in libraries over words that they don’t like or understand clearly doesn’t have even the most tenuous comprehension of what is really happening.
rather than taking away employee rights, the left is giving employees rights.
Good, that’s not what I am talking about
rather than taking away minority rights, the left is legally protecting minority rights.
Good, that’s not what i am talking about neither
. those are practical and effective policies.
Cool I agree!
this is largely your imagination and pointed conservative media and a poor excuse for selfish people to continue abusing vulnerable people for their own gain.
Oh wait, so telling someone “your fears/points you makes, it’s just your imagination” is a valid argument now? lol
the fact that you don’t understand haven’t considered the difference between protected civil liberties and imaginary fake word hunts … the conservative media you consume is.
Well you didn’t even bother to check if we are talking about the same points. Good on you I guess. You also somehow deduced I consume conservative medias, that’s some skill!
consider what you’re saying, consider the information around you.
Consider what you are saying, consider the information about you.
… right is literally banning books in libraries over words…
Banning books is dumb, I don’t know what makes you say I d support it. It never occured to me to ban a book, and I am not planning or supporting anyone who does.
Again 95% of your comment is completely beside the point, because you somehow assumed my view points without ever considering I actually have similar views, I just don’t subscribe to every other random bullshit “the left” (whatever that means, because I don’t consider myself “right” neither) does.
nobody’s throwing you in jail for being the public bigot you aspire to. use all the slurs you want.
people are, however, murdering trans people and banning books. in the real world.
have fun cradling your make believies.
So you think that being an asshole and holding the country hostage is a reasonable response to being scolded? Like a literal fucking toddler?
Sorry I don’t know what you refer to
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Logged into the wrong account? Hard to keep track, eh?
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MAGA is popular for the same reason other nationalist, fascist movements have risen over the course of modern history: as a response to Capitalist decay. MAGA isn’t popular for genetic reasons, intellectual inferiority, or other reasons like that, but as a common class interest. All of the descriptors in the OP are consequences of the driving factor of class interests, not the drivers themselves.
Fascism is most often represented as an alliance between the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie proper, driven by the Petite Bourgeoisie, as monopolization of Capital results in competition becoming more and more difficult, and the Petite Bourgeoisie faces Proletarianization. To prevent the Petite Bourgeoisie from joining the Proletariat in solidarity, the Bourgeoisie proper turns their hatred against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat.
What does this all mean, in practical, American terms? Small business owners, landlords, ie the “middle class,” is shrinking in power, so the Small Business Owners are aligning with billionaires like Musk and Bezos against immigrants, workers, unhoused peopled, gender/sexual minorities, women, ethnic minorities, and more.
How do we fix this? Grow the Petite Bourgeoisie and restore their position? Absolutely not! That’s when fascism is established. Trying to “turn the clock back to the good old days” results in dramatic reductions in worker rights and a solidification of power.
What we need to do is establish Socialism. A victory of the Proletariat, a folding of the large monopolist syndicates into the public sector so they can be centrally planned for the public good, rather than privately planned for profit, is the way forward. This is the way to escape fascism’s rise. This is the way to defeat MAGA.
I recommend reading the book Blackshirts and Reds, fascism’s irrationality has rational, material origins, that can be understood and defeated, and it isn’t in the “marketplace of ideas.”
That’s a modern take that doesn’t really hold up to any scrutiny since there was conservatism before capitalism.
It’s a convenient rallying cry of people who prefer socialism as they understand it, but the direct comparison doesn’t hold any historical water.
mega fits into capitalism and socialist. I think they’re such broad concepts, but definitely not the instigating concepts of fascism are conservatism.
I remember that book, it’s older right? I read it in college or high school at some point.
Conservativism isn’t the same as fascism. Reactionary movements have existed in every form of Class Society, when Capitalism overtook Feudalism it was the holdover Monarchist movements. It isn’t a “convenient rallying cry,” but an analysis of reactionary vs progressive social movements driven by class interests.
mega fits into capitalism and socialist
I have no idea what this means. Why do you think MAGA is Socialist?
I remember that book, it’s older right? I read it in college or high school at some point.
Written in the 90s, you should revisit it.
“Reactionary movements have existed in every form of Class Society, when Capitalism overtook Feudalism it was the holdover Monarchist movements.”
and before class society!
"an analysis of reactionary vs progressive social movements driven by class interests. "
blaming capitalism for literally everything, especially in a meme, is simple aggressive fomenting.
superficial demonization encourages a riot, not a movement, although it’s easy to confuse the two when your blood is pumping and everyone around you is screaming the same facile slogan.
and before class society!
What “reactionary” movements existed in tribal societies devoid of distinct classes?
blaming capitalism for literally everything, especially in a meme, is simple aggressive fomenting.
I blame Capitalism for Capitalism’s issues, not literally everything.
superficial demonization encourages a riot, not a movement, although it’s easy to confuse the two when your blood is pumping and everyone around you is screaming the same facile slogan.
I have no idea what point you’re actually making.
“What “reactionary” movements existed in tribal societies devoid of distinct classes?”
tribal societies specifically?
exactly how far are you narrowing societies you want examples of reactionary movements in down to?
like you want a specific century and a specific type of society? instead of just any non-capitalist society?
how are you defining capitalism?
are you ignoring the contemporary Amish and other people who oppose change out of principle for no capitalist reason?
"I blame Capitalism for Capitalism’s issues, not literally everything. "
you’re lumping conservative human behavior that exists independent of capitalism with actual examples of direct capitalist problems like mortgage crises.
your brush is too broad.
"I have no idea what point you’re actually making. "
yelling “socialism is the best and capitalism causes all the problems” at the people yelling “capitalism is the best and socialism causes all the problems” isn’t exactly dignifying your stance with a sense of legitimacy.
tribal societies specifically?
Yes, after tribal societies came the first class-based societies. You said reactionary movements predate class society, tell me.
how are you defining capitalism?
An economic mode of production centered around commodity production through competing Capitalists in markets who employ wage-labor, seeking greater and greater accumulation. This process is only a few hundred years old.
are you ignoring the contemporary Amish and other people who oppose change out of principle for no capitalist reason?
The Amish participate in Capitalism. Culture is a reflection of the Mode of Production.
you’re lumping conservative human behavior that exists independent of capitalism with actual examples of direct capitalist problems like mortgage crises.
I am speaking of class interests.
yelling “socialism is the best and capitalism causes all the problems” at the people yelling “capitalism is the best and socialism causes all the problems” isn’t exactly dignifying your stance with a sense of legitimacy.
Where are you seeing this?
I’ve gotten a disturbing number of messages on grindr from men that are hard core right wing, yet are on a gay dating app. The level of hate, ignorance, and cognitive dissonance is unprecedented. And it’s all fueled by highly addictive apps, and pumped at unimaginable scales thanks to AI.
I hate to say it, but I think this really is the end.
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“Hmm there sure are a lot of hateful conservatives in this space I keep occupying”
I’m confused. Are you implying I’m a hateful conservative? Or that by virtue of being in this space, I’m attracting hateful conservatives to me?
Many of them started in camp 1 and entered camp 2.
my (lifelong republican) aunt and uncle were trump haters in the 2016 primaries. but of course they voted for him in the election because Hillary is literally the devil, and once he won they were all in.
I need to ask my parents, cuz last I heard around June my dad had snapped out enough to at least to say he was considering not voting for the first time ever in a national election. There’s an ironic push for ranked choice style options moving forward now thanks to our state Republicans trying to revert back to caucuses and pissing a bunch of constituents off by having us vote to ban other options
A lot of conservatives are authoritarians that value group cohesion above most everything else. Going against the group feels bad in a deep way, I think, so all sorts of justifications will be made to stay with the group.
Honestly, as far as I’m concerned that’s a form of stupid. Kind of funny given the boomer cliche of “If your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump off too?”. It turns out yes, a lot of people would.
One of the lawyers that defended a handful of J6 insurrectionists said they would give them a reading list to help them understand on a general level what any of the legal charges they faced concerned or what the consequences could be, or just how government worked, and because this was ‘‘you need to read this before trial so you can ACTUALLY have a chance of getting a plea deal or even a dismissal if you can actually convince a judge you now grasp what you did and how bad it was, and you’re super duper sorry’’ some actually read them. And they came out of it going ‘‘oh… I’ve been lied to and manipulated into doing very illegal shit by a political party that knows it can no longer win elections and needs to do very illegal shit to retain any level of power’’ and similar thoughts.
But yes. If they instead acquired a smidge of curiosity and interest in worthwhile pursuits they would probably stop being garbage ass people. Maybe we need to make reading cool? Possible dinosaurs reading on posters. That’s what got me reading.
Bring back the Pizza Hut reading club!
They don’t like to read
I argue that’s the issue right there.
Reading only headlines will get you there quickly. But headlines are click bait and insufficient.
I recall seeing a study on the demographics of who actually reads articles and MAGAs were among the most that did not read.
Sounds like a basket of deplorables to me.
No, you mustn’t say!
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