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Just make sure to learn some Chinese as well
Philosophy is genuinely a fantastic subject to study and I have no idea why school curriculums don’t reflect this
Stupid people are easier to control.
I mean also I studied philosophy and have had no regrets. It’s awesome and fascinating and rich and appeals to the fact that you just know that the world doesn’t really make sense
I had a philosophy class on my 3rd year in HS. And I hated it, but only because it was imparted by a bitter and deeply religious old man whose lectures were basically “let me tell you why this philosopher was an idiot and a bad person” when anything challenged his views.
This was, of course, a private Catholic highschool. But, to be fair, he was the only teacher there that was like that. We even had decent sex-ed, taught by an actual doctor.
Well yeah I suspect that’s part of the reason it’s slipped out of the curriculum. Shit teachers co-opted it for religion
i actually took this as a course in college, everyone should it will open up to religions as well. i would loved to take more, but by the second course of with the same instructor, i couldnt not focus in a morning class. luckily his class was easy enough that you could do everything as a WFH assignment. both courses i took easily shouldve been more than 1 semester each, too much to cover in short semester.
It’s unlikely you will invent anything new in it, just watch a video on some philosophy, and move on.
This is very good trolling and I took a second
Tf you mean trolling? I’m serious. The average person does not have time for Philosophy, they have to survive. Your average, everyday person will not benefit much from studying philosophy, as they know the important basics already.
You aren’t likely to develop an unique philosophy either, that is rich people stuff.
Ok ok fine I’ll bite. Studying philosophy is a matter of refining your approach to problems, not memorising what some gnarled old Greek dude thought 2000 years ago
Also literally everyone has a unique philosophy.
I suppose that’s true, but I don’t have the energy to think about it.
Well yeah, because you didn’t study it at school and so it doesn’t come as naturally as it might
I had a volunteer assigned to me, I learned everything, and within a week, I didn’t know it again.
I could never keep up, as I always wrote down slower, and so was left behind.
I was jealous, and did try to study.
For some reason, whenever you have something wrong with you, people just assume it’s because you did something, or you didn’t try hard enough.
No, I was always just worse than others at everything I do.
It gives you critical thinking skills, which are already in quite short supply…
“whatever sweetie, just make sure to also study farming so you can grow food when the inevitable apocalypse happens”
I went to college and got a diploma, not a degree. That was because I knew where I wanted to be in the world. I was going to be a sysadmin/network admin/IT support. That was where I was going.
At the time, the available courses for system administrators that resulted in a degree didn’t fucking exist. A big fuck all for degree programs. So I got a diploma, and went on my merry way.
I looked at available degree programs last year and there’s still pretty much sweet fuck all for degree programs for IT support workers, with a few exceptions. A handful of colleges in my country now have some degree programs, and a couple have created one for system/network administrators. They’re massively rare, and the only course plans are for full time class loads. You want to take the degree course, but you have to work? Get fucked. You’re not getting anything.
I actually (foolishly) emailed some of the colleges asking if they would offer enough of the credits in remote learning courses that I could feasibly, eventually, get a degree. If someone could laugh over email, I’m pretty sure that they would have. Needless to say, the answer is a big fuck you.
Yet… I have well over a decade of real world experience and a lot of places are putting up job postings for sysadmin jobs asking for degrees plus years of experience.
So, essentially, they want me to go get a degree, probably in computer Science, which, by the way, isn’t really computer Science. There’s really no Science to it and the only relation to a computer is that you’re doing programming. CS majors cannot do my job. They would be so bad at it, that I would laugh, then cry, knowing I probably have to fix all the fuckups that were just made.
So, they want to hire someone who can’t do the work because they want and need a degree for a job that doesn’t have a degree that actually teaches you the correct skillset.
The entire fucking job market is completely fucked. Unless you do development, GFL wading through all the asinine postings to find one that is reasonable enough to recognize that CS majors are not the people you want working in system admin positions.
The worst part is that businesses can’t see what they’re doing wrong. C-levels, owners and managers, have no fucking clue what I do, nor how I do any of it. Unless it’s a company large enough to have a CIO that’s got a lick of fucking sense, the job posting is going to be utter horse shit for the crap that they’ll expect from you.
“Enjoys a fast paced environment” - you’re going to be over worked.
“Works well independently” - because you’re always going to be working alone, since they won’t hire anyone else to work the job.
"Requires knowledge of: Windows server, VMware, networking, Wan/LAN, VPN, desktop, printers… " You’re the only one working IT and you need to do it all.
“Enjoys a challenge” - nothing is under warranty, so every vendor will tell you to fuck off anytime you are in over your head and call in for support.
I’ve seen this shit so much over the past decade+ that’s it’s all shit. I don’t even fucking read job postings half the time, if it has a salary to it that looks good to me, I check if it’s “hybrid” (aka, in-office, but you can work from home, with managers approval that you’ll never get), in-office, or remote. If it’s anything other than remote, I’m probably moving on. If it passes those first two checks, I skim the requirements for “you should know” shit to determine if I’m working on a team, if they’re actually looking for an IT person, or is this posting, just a poorly worded website design or coding job… And if I don’t see anything too stupid on the list I just throw them my resume.
Look, I’ve done this job long enough that I know my shit, I know I know my shit, and I couldn’t give a fuck less if you call me or not. If you don’t see my potential, your loss. I don’t want to work for someone who is too blind to see that experience > everything, and that what I put on my resume isn’t who I am. I couldn’t possibly cram enough info into a CV to accurately convey the sheer amount of shit I’ve dealt with. Not even fucking close… And if you need someone with at least 5 years experience with ERP-xyz-Max 2010, and won’t even consider anyone who hasn’t used that software, well, you’re too dumb to be helped. Do you have any idea how much specialized software is out there? Give me a fucking break. My expertise isn’t in one specific software, though I have a lot of knowledge of some of the more common ones… My expertise is decoding the shit pile that the publisher calls “documentation” to actually support the program well enough to keep it running. I RTFM so you don’t have to.
There, I said it.
that’s because IT for the most part SHOULDNT have degrees… IT is a trade for the huge majority of people.
computer science is a thing: we need people to develop new algorithms, etc… but most people don’t need to know most of what’s in a compsci degree
but just like we don’t get structural engineers to do the plumbing and electrical in the buildings they design, we should have the plumbers of the IT world: developers who learned like a trade… 50% theory and 50% on the job training as an apprenticeship
we don’t need more compsci graduates… a degree isn’t some magic bullet - it’s a specific kind of learning that’s suited for a specific kind of profession
You won’t get any argument from me.
The fact that IT support is basically the new digital version of a janitor or groundskeeper, doesn’t stop moron hiring managers from demanding a degree from their IT applicants.
All I’m saying is that they should stop doing it. It’s nonsense.
This exists and makes me howl. https://missing.csail.mit.edu/
Wow. I don’t even know what to say to that.
CS grads don’t even get taught about the CLI?
That’s embarrassing.
And people wonder why employers are hesitant to hire juniors.
And it’s entirely the tech companies making their own bed and then laying in it. In the few jurisdictions where the engineering regulatory colleges won out in protecting their title, there’s a slough of highly qualified Professional Software Engineers who’ve graduated from accredited programs alongside the people who grad from more theory-based compsci programs
ironically philosophy majors perform better on graduate school entrance exams like the LSAT and GREs than most other majors, and philosophy graduates tend to be more successful and be better earners than other majors, notably than business major graduates
arugably, philosophy is one of the better majors in terms of outcomes
https://philosophy.unc.edu/undergraduate/the-major/why-major-in-philosophy/
This is PURE speculation, but I feel like this could be caused by the only people who feel comfortable getting a philosophy degree being wealthy connected people. I know a lot of people from my high school that have stereotypical “be poor forever” degrees and are doing great - but if you knew them in high school, you’d know that they had millionaire parents. All the poor kids went for safer degrees because they knew they’d need money.
To be clear: I love philosophy and think it is very valuable. But sadly it seems like something that only privileged people or the very passionate take a risk on.
I didn’t want to say it, but I do think this is a possibility - people like Pete Buttigieg were philosophy majors. However, it’s probably a bit of both - being wealthy and connected probably still makes up a minority of philosophy majors, and yet they still outperform on graduate entrance exams generally.
You might be interested in reading The Management Myth by Matthew Stewart for a non-wealthy philosophy major’s perspective on business. :-)
That could also create a networking situation for even poor ones.
Yeah I agree, there is probably a bias effect here. That may or may not explain all of the difference. The one you’ve proposed makes sense.
Don’t ya think this might be a bit bias? They have a vested interest to sell you a philosophy degree.
I used my philosophy of science classwork all the time in my engineering career.
What constitutes proof? What kinds of questions can you answer with data? When do we consider a pattern of behavior to represent the existence of some entity?
Being able to think about these kinds of questions with clarity is really helpful in diagnosing problems in large systems.
I’ve worked with a few philosophy majors in various roles and they were more thoughtful about things. Like they learned how to think, not just what to think.
What constitutes proof?
Statistical significance.
What constitutes proof? What kinds of questions can you answer with data? When do we consider a pattern of behavior to represent the existence of some entity?
Any recommended reading for someone who’s never formally studied philosophy?
Karl Popper, “The Logic of Scientific Discovery” is a seminal work in the modern philosophy of science. It proposes to solve the problem of induction, and his proposal of falsifiability is, to my knowledge, the most popular philosophical framework for modern scientific practice. I’d be interested in what the above commenter has to say about Popper, though, as I am not well-read outside of his work, as my focus is on the history of science.
I’m not sure recommending Popper to someone who has never studied philosophy, and who is reading on their own, is a good idea … I would probably start with a small intro to philosophy book like Blackburn’s Think and then try to find lectures or resources that help teach Popper, rather than just diving into source material with no guidance.
Popper is important, but I don’t think he is commonly seen to have solved the problem of induction … he made an attempt, but that’s a different story.
Excellent points! And yes, that’s why I said he proposed that he solved the problem of induction.
sorry, I conflated what you said about falsifiability being the most popular framework with thinking he did solve the problem of induction, lol - I had just woken up when I responded to you, my apologies 😅
Popper is great, also recommend Hilary Putnam’s “The ‘Corroboration’ of Theories” on Popper. I admittedly adore Putnam, but it’s a nice overview of Popper’s view of induction and its problems.
Thomas Kuhn (The Structure of Scientific Revolutions) and his idea of paradigm shifts is also worth mentioning here, and Kuhn comes up in Putnam’s chapter, too.
Popper is considered an important historical contributor by the field, in the same way that Jacob Lister might be in surgery. Groundbreaking but their methods have been replaced.
Jeffrey Kaplan is the best current philosophy lecturer on YouTube imo. He focuses more on theories of consciousness but covers epistemology too. Bryan Magee did a fantastic interview series called The Great Philosophers that’s on YouTube.
I would actually start with sociology of science if you want the most interesting contemporary stuff. Harry Collins is fantastic, check out his recent book on LIGO. Steven Shapin’s book on the Scientific Revolution is good.
Bruno Latour is a love-him-or-hate-him figure in science studies (I love him). “Laboratory Life” and “Science in Action” are great reads imo.
Bertrand Russell has an intro to philosophy book that is quite accessible.
yes, though the facts and studies they link to remain true regardless - this is the strongest argument for getting a philosophy degree, it makes sense they present it
If I can contribute anything: don’t do a Ph.D. just because you’re not sure exactly what you want to do.
It may work out in the long run (thankfully it did eventually for me), but a M.Sc. is much shorter, and you may be more employable with one vs. a Ph.D.
Although do what you feel, maybe just think of this comment if you’re questioning.
(Also sorry, my experience is only in science)
I hired a gal with a phD in philosophy for a marketing position. She was so happy to have a job. She said she removed her phD from her LinkedIn but kept it in her resume because nobody would even give her the time of day.
A PhD is only worth it (both in time and money) if you have a real interest in what you are researching.
yup, and its actually detrimient to have it on your resume as part of your title, because employers dont want to hire someone that would be potentially asking for too high of a salary.
My family member got one in early childhood ed and can’t find a job because he’s over qualified and their afraid they’ll just find a better job.
Learned CS/Coding at school, ended up with a factory job in manufacturing.
The meme is right, it is a pretty balling existence all things considered
So… I’ve spent more time than I care to admit attending University/College. I started out Undecided became a Science major then A Technology major before leaving with nothing to show for it. I’ve told myself for months now that the only way i’d ever go back was if I could be a Philosophy major.
STEM is always good for the mind, even if it is bed for your career.
my boss got mad when trying to use the “Socratic method” on a project that I was contradicting them and questioning their every statement
?!?!?!!?
Going to college purely for a career is a hell of a gamble and the most likely positive outcomes are in fields where everyone fucking hates you (business majors, etc).
Go to improve yourself. Learn all you are interested in. Experience new things. For most jobs, nobody cares what your major is anyway. They care that you can focus on a long term goal and achieve it and a college degree demonstrates that.
Going to college purely for a career is a hell of a gamble
Sure, but it’s a gamble that everyone tries to tell you is a sure thing in your youth, and they pile immense pressure on you to do. Maybe things have changed recently, but it hasn’t been all that long since I was in high school, in the grand scheme of things, and I remember how you were basically treated like the world’s biggest idiot if you didn’t plan on going on to get a university degree. Maybe the only exception was if you were going to join the military, with the understanding you were doing so in order to get a degree on the cheap when you finished.
I think everyone who wants to do so, and who has put in the work to be at the appropriate level academically, should have the opportunity go and study at university, but I also believe that the vast majority of people have no need to do so, and ultimately will not benefit from it. Unfortunately, modern society treats universities not as institutes of education and monuments to the pursuit of knowledge, but as glorified vocational schools. It seems largely to be at the impetus of companies who have decided to externalize any training costs onto potential hires, substituting any sort of on the job training for “Did they check the box that says they have a degree?”
In the past 30 years, I’ve seen massive changes in how companies operate just by watching the sort of jobs my father could get. When I was a kid, he could get hired on with nothing more than “I like computers, I’ll actually read the whole manual for the system I’m working on, and I understand there’s a 6 month probation period to see if I actually do that.” for jobs that he would be summarily screened out for today, despite having successfully done in the past.
Like, don’t get me wrong, he’s dumb as hell in a lot of ways, but I’ve still seen extra stupid stuff in his career trajectory that reflects this. I recall him being fired because he got an IT job at Ernst & Young that he’d been successfully doing for years, because they suddenly said “Everyone doing this job needs to have a degree and the following certifications, and if you don’t have them and do this job now, you need to get them ASAP and reinterview for your role.”
Ahh yes, working in a factory… my life’s dream is crushed.
Look, as a 40yo I have to advise new kids to yes, do what you want, but research the market first. If you want to do Philosophy to be a teacher great, but if not mayber try other areas like socialology or history that have a slightly better market…Or just learn IT because that’s the future and you are never out of a job
or just study what you want and get job skills separately.
our education system shouldn’t be teaching job skills anyway. it should be teaching higher order skills and the jobs should be training you at the specific job. most of the job skills you would learn in school will also be a 5-10 years out of date when you enter the workforce. or, if you are really lucky, your company will will be operating on skills from 20-30 years ago and your 10 year old skills will make you seem like a genius
This often cited study from 2012 reported that something like only 27% of those with bachelor’s degrees were working in a field related to their major. It’s over 10 years old but there’s no reason to assume that the general broad principles don’t still apply in the modern economy.
University educations have never been intended to be mere vocational skills programs. Being able to research, read, and write critically are important broad skills that are useful in life (including in the workforce), and most jobs out in the world don’t actually require significant specialized education.
People who work in sales, management, design, logistics, event planning, contracting, marketing, advertising, finance, real estate, and things like that don’t need particular degrees to do those jobs, but most of the white collar world has degrees. There’s nothing wrong with majoring in English literature and then going into software sales, or majoring in history and going into logistics, or majoring in philosophy and becoming a journalist. It’s not like you get a free pass to stop learning once you’re in an industry, and keeping up means learning things that weren’t even known when you were in college.
It’s liberating when you realize that the choices you made at 18 don’t box you in for life. You have the flexibility to make career changes into different industries, different roles, different cities, and different employers when you realize that most jobs can be learned as you go.
And most jobs suck, so it’s worth finding something that fits your strengths and ignores your weaknesses, so that it’s just easier for you to do.
Not really. I’m not sure how it ended up so rounded, but getting a degree is more than just “get skills for the job”. When you are getting any bachelor’s degree, you also have to take a certain amount of history, music appreciation, etc, heck my school even required lifetime fitness. It’s also learning alongside your peers to suffer together, I mean work together.
Also, for something like engineering, you don’t want a job to teach the basics of safely designing a building. You want that in school so when your job asks you to do something dumb, you can explain to them why it is unsafe and correctly refuse.
I like how my friend put it: “You COULD go to a technical school to get a job, but you wouldn’t be very interesting to talk to.”
Ugh and I just imagined if they made something like “Walgreens pharmacy school” that would train you to be a pharmacist but only for Walgreens. Imagine if your ability and certification to work in any field was tied to a specific company. No way to leave to CVS or whatever unless you go to “CVS pharmacy school”. Sounds awful.
that’s not true. maybe you were required to do that, but every school is different and maybe have entire dropped the trad liberal arts or general ed requirements. my college had no such requirements you should take whatever you wanted as long as you had a major.
some schools still also only offer liberal arts style degrees and have no technical degrees.
This is really the type of scholarship you would expect in a capitalist society.
Essentially, big corpos would scout HS and undergrad students for prospective employees and offer them tuition and a job contract, with payback requirements if they don’t graduate and fulfill the contract. Pretty much the same deal and college/pro sports.
Especially in industries that have or are forecasted to have a big skills-gap.
Despite sounding dystopian AF, it still somehow sounds better than what we have now.
Computer science graduates have one of the highest rates of unemployment
Really? I mean I’m not in the US but I never had a problem.
Like currently, in the US; there was an article about it floating around Lemmy a couple days ago. Oversaturated from a decade+ of telling everyone to go into compsci, and now companies are cutting staff
Yeah I imagine, but won’t all of this AI require support? Idk for now we are ok here but the future could be bad.for sure.
Everyone is trying to replace most support with AI. Why pay a person to be confused about your weird tech problem when the computer can do it for less?
I ment supporting the AI itself. Like someone have to manually support the DCs right?
Literally half of why I changed my degree lmao
Is that Mandy Patinken?
I talked to a guy who had a master’s degree in philosophy. He told me he worked for an investment firm.
Me: What do you do there, convince investment bankers not to kill themselves?
Him: Yeah, pretty much.
Me: 😳
convince investment bankers not to kill themselves?
Sometimes there is great value in a job done poorly.
I have a masters in philosophy.
I work in IT security and compliance. I’m getting promoted way faster than most of my peers who have masters in technology… because they are really bad at understanding new concepts and ideals and how to apply them. Their mental flexibility is limited.
So there is a way to use your philosophy degree for evil.
In this case, chaotic neutral i think.
Lawful evil
I’d think it’d be more ethical to do the exact opposite.
But then who would pay you
👋
I think we could crowd fund something…
