There’s dozens or harassment communities, if you say anything that’s not pure, weapons grade condemnation of anything USSR or AES nuts accusations start getting levelled.
Internet communists have to be like the most irrelevant political bloc in the world. Even if you take the stance that everyone is hoping for a return of purges that’s still just a completely irrelevant group. Most people I’ve seen being accused of tankyness is are more nuanced.
Wtf is going on. I thought it would settle down after the reddit migration faded.
When you don’t have a coherent worldview it’s very uncomfortable to think about the questions people on the left ask you, so refusing to think about it is the easiest solution. Calling people commies and reds and pinkos used to work but the bozos who came up with those are all obviously buffoons and liberals know it, so they stole “tankie” from leftist infighting and slap it onto anybody whose questions make their brain feel weird.
I think there could be some learned helplessness from being soaked in
for their entire lives. Providing thoughtful analysis that leads them to a conclusion that ‘tastes bad’ to their
results in a kind of political disgust. Spit it out fast! Tankie just happens to be the current floating signifier available to forget that nasty taste of historical materialism, etc.
The derrangement is wild though. Someone will be like “Actually I think history is nuanced and that we should look at it with a critical eye, avoiding oversimplification” and people respond with “I bet you are an evil person that thinks throwing babies off cliffs is good! Fuck you babykiller! I can’t believe you are defending killing babies!”
It’s like watching a switch go off and some sleeper agent programming kick in.
Then there’s a few posters who seem to think that if they don’t make a million posts a day about tankies on lemmy the sun will set on freedom and by next week we’ll all be mining rare metals in siberia. Umm this is a link aggregator for disaffected weirdos.
They have constructed their mind palaces where liberalism is the smart, grown-up worldview, but now they’re not on Reddit where they drastically outnumber the leftist posters. They have to constantly bang the drum of tankies to reinforce their dominance of the instances where the moderators are all liberals. Otherwise our posting powers would allow us to get in and change minds
For the anticommunist power-posters, I think what you’re saying makes sense, but a lot of people have a similar (less overstated) reaction from a much more casual perspective, and for understanding those people, I have a comment: There has been a project for 80 years now of tarring communists, the USSR especially, as being equivalent to Nazis. It is ubiquitous and you rarely ever see a specifically contrary claim. It makes sense that at least some people would just shrug and accept it. Given that, imagine being told “Actually I think history is nuanced and that we should look at it with a critical eye, avoiding oversimplification” regarding people who you believe were as bad or even worse than the Nazis; isn’t that like someone saying that about the Nazis? Like those people who want to rehabilitate Hitler or deny the Holocaust? I think most of us would be appalled.
So that makes it more challenging to figure out how to address those people, who are really the only people worth addressing because the power posters aren’t listening.
Good insight! My family is Polish and left after the war. My exposure to the complexity of wtf happened started at a young age, like my grandmother lamenting how curtailed her rights were in Australia vs soviet Poland where she was respected as an independent worker. While also discussing the atrocities that happened during the occupation and the trauma of marginalising religious life and shit by force.
I suppose halfway across the world it’s just “reds and blacks bad. Glorious allies (no no the white allies (Slavs weren’t white yet)) save the world”
So it looks like I’m defending something universally horrible, instead of trying to be like why did things go the way they did?
I saw someone on reddit say “tankies/campists” the other day, they love to take leftist infighting words and use them in place of “commie.”
I think it’s a lot simpler than most people here believe: people in Lemmy love the West and they see tankies as people who hate the West. It’s nothing more complicated than that. They do not hate fascists in the same way because fascists do not hate the West. Not even Hindutva freaks hate the West if we go by how much they suck off white nationalists on ecks dot com.
Notice how they would lump some Chinese or Russian ultranationalist as tankies even though neither would be a communist, a socialist, or even a progressive. On the flip, you would never see them call a Hindutvist or Turkish Grey Wolves supporter tankies even though they’re about as reactionary as those Chinese/Russian ultranationalists.
If you gather a Marxist-Leninist, a Han supremacist, a Russian ultranationalist, a Hindutvist, and a Turkish Grey Wolves supporter all in one room, people in Lemmy would lump the Marxist-Leninist, the Han supremacist, and the Russian ultranationalist as tankies. The one commonality between the three is that they all hate the West.
This has even extended to the Axis of Resistance. They haven’t called Hamas or Hezbollah tankies yet, but notice how they use “Assadist” in the same way they would use “tankie.” You see them still crying about Assadists even though Assad is just living his life in Moscow.
I think it’s a lot simpler than most people here believe: people in Lemmy love the West and they see tankies as people who hate the West. It’s nothing more complicated than that. They do not hate fascists in the same way because fascists do not hate the West.
I think this is a very good insight! It seems anytime I interact with someone who complains about “tankies” it goes one of two ways: either A) they go full
about how West is Best, usually dressed up in Liberalism in a flimsy attempt to hide their racism and chauvinism (which are so intense they leak through anyway), or B) I’m removing B because I don’t want to get too into sectarianism, but I’m frustrated that radlibs seem to have been successfully co-opting anarchist terms over the last decade in order to cosplay as radicals while still defending the system that gives them some crumbs of comfort.
I have very deep anarchist sympathies, but often find myself at odds with people who seem to think anarchism means the future is luxury space communism and lives of idleness. Not, in reality, surrendering a lot of the trinkets we can only have as they are extracted by empire. Accepting that life will be full of hard and often unpleasant labour but that we will be emotionally richer and the result will be closer to justice.
Also that to get there we’re gonna have to be violent, and the thing about violence is people get hurt.
I definitely have no patience for the radlib types that I’ve been seeing browbeating and tut tutting leftists for wanting a revolution. “Don’t you know a revolution would hurt disabled people?” “Oh so I guess we just won’t do anything until the glorious revolution?” etc etc
Well see, the thing is that the people huddled wet and cold in the street. They’re not really people. The Nepali miners with freeze burns on their hands so you can have salt with visually pleasing contamination? They’re well… you know. That blackfella dying in hospital because people think he’s faking pain for drugs? You’ve got to understand these are complex issues we simply must have patience with. Incremental chain my good friend incremental change.
If we’re not careful people could suffer you know?
Oh god I fucking hate that whole strain of calling any problem they don’t want to confront “nuanced” or “complex”. It’s not complex, you just don’t want to admit that you’re the kind of person who’s fine with letting others suffer
In their minds, revolution has to be perfect and polite to be worth trying at all
God yes it pisses me off to no end. I often think about how invisible state violence is to half the chucklefucks.
Like chemical weapons, torture devices, beating, cages, screaming, and hitting. These things are used to stop someone taking surplus, discarded food from a bin but if that person says enough. If that person says “No, I will not suffer and die in indignity. I will kill you, you who would kill me” and like beats some cop to death or the person who would call the cops on them. They’re the violent party? Really? The person that was content to subsist off of literal garbage if it meant peace.
No. Fuck that. We have tried asking nicely, I will always maintain that forgiveness be offered if people seek to change but when people horde wealth and use the machinery of law to deprive people of the necessities of life. Things they would often not even notice being gone. Yes I am willing to hurt them, and yes I am willing to accept that mistakes will happen as we try and halt this horrible orphan crushing machine.
What is the alternative? Children are dying. What good are ideals if they would have you sit by and do nothing while children are dying.
There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.
I have that quote saved in my phone to read at people when I’m feeling insufferable.
The funny thing to me is that these people will also defend the use of violence in “self” (read: property) defence. Like they will condone violent fantasies about what they’d do if someone hurt their family or robbed their houses. But when it comes to other people’s children, or indigenous people, or poor people, it’s all kumbaya-didn’t-you-know-Martin-Luther-was-a-pacifist
A revolution is a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it has to be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous.
Ideally something that can be done and dusted on one’s day off, or at most, over a weekend.
“Don’t you know a revolution would hurt disabled people?”
Bold of them to say this when Canada’s doing MAID, also known as Literally Aktion T4 But Neoliberal.
I never understand this argument. Do radlibs think revolutions purposefully target and hurt disabled people or something?
IMO it’s a sound argument (disabled people who need medications will struggle to get that medicine during a revolutionary war) but it’s not valid, because disabled workers are socially murdered under capitalism, unless they are lucky enough to have family or other people around them to support them.
A child free from the guilt of ownership and the burden of economic competition will grow up with the will to do what needs doing and the capacity for joy in doing it. It is useless work that darkens the heart. The delight of the nursing mother, of the scholar, of the successful hunter, of the good cook, of the skilful maker, of anyone doing needed work and doing it well, - this durable joy is perhaps the deepest source of human affection and of sociality as a whole.
Ursula K. Le Guin, The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia
I am a huuuuge fan or Ursula and particularly the dispossessed.
It’s obviously fiction but I think it’s good to get people thinking about how labour, i.e. doing stuff for productive ends, and work in our current society are different.
Not all labour is onerous work, anyone who’s cooked with friends has direct experience in how a task is transformed by the context it’s peformed in.
Yeah, same. I think it’s the most realistic fictional look at what a real, fully developed anarcho-communist society might look like, warts and all. It’s not FAL(G)SC by any means, and it’s not a perfect world. People still suffer and do each other wrong, but there’s a dignity, solidarity, and (as you said) justice running through it that makes everything better. One of my favorite books.
people in Lemmy love the West
I.e. actual campists
I’m squaring what you’ve said here with my very anecdotal experience: I’m an American yet most people I see on Reddit (I don’t use Lemmy) who hate tankies tend to be from Eastern Europe. While not everyone in Eastern Europe loves the west of course, liberals there really do seem to be the biggest “pro-West” people on earth (while Americans I think tend to be more “pro-America” than “pro-West). So I think what you are saying tracks.
Whenever someone says an opinion that hurts the national pride of an american Liberal; They will proceed to call that person a tankie.
And then the same libs will complain about republicans and their thought terminating Clichés. ™
oh god, don’t make me remember lesswrong.
I remember thinking he was smart until I got to the physics (my expertise) and was like “Oh wow, he’s stupid”
He did get me interested in real philosophy though so credit where it’s due.
Yudkowsky, much like the bourgeois news, sounds informed and informative until the subject becomes one you know anything at all about.
Yeah https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect is something to always be looking out for.
Gotta always be careful to work out if something is a convincing argument or just sounds like one.
He’s not as clever as he thinks he is, but that feels like an unfair bar - nobody in the history of humanity has been as clever as Yudkowsky thinks he is.
I am having a bad day, and this gift of laughter you have given is deeply appreciated.
Always here for shitting on rationalists who, after agonising deliberation and study, conclude the ideas they got attached to as teens reading SciFi really are serious after all.
It is the intersection of two factors. First, Lemmy is a niche social media platform. The only people who know about it, let alone use it, are extremely online to begin with. Second, most Liberals are genuine idealists who believe rhetoric is the primary arena of struggle. They believe that the reason Liberal Democracy is crumbling all around the world because people are being misinformed (not because of the underlying economic failures).
Combine these two factors and you end up with the type of radlib fundamentalists we see on Lemmy, who believe rhetoric on social media is the primary arena of struggle, and that people like us are either a social contagion spreading among ignorant dupes, or malicious foreign state operatives.
genuine idealists who believe rhetoric is the primary arena of struggle
Oooh I like this thought. That certainly is a current among people who have never been on the recieving end of the extraordinary political power of pepper spray and batons.
GOOD POST
They want to have their cake and eat it too - they want to be seen as revolutionary leftists fighting the good fight, but they also want to maintain imperialism and their western chauvinist worldview. “Tankies” undermine their conception of themselves as good people by confronting them with the part of themselves that still wants to believe they’re the master race.
Western liberals like to put on a generic “anti-power” coat and don’t concern themselves with the actual business of running a country. Some dead slave owner said exercising power is inherently evil therefore China bad
Despair is typical of those who do not understand the causes of evil, see no way out, and are incapable of struggle.
Lenin
Anyone working in counter-propaganda can testify to a curious experience: we’ll put in hours of careful research collecting an impeccable set of resources that undermines some warmongering narrative, and we’ll eagerly share it with someone who claims to despise racism in all its forms — say, an outspoken opponent of the West’s so-called “War on Terror.” Unexpectedly, we are met with a response that is somewhere between chilly reticence and downright hostility. What’s going on?
From our perspective, we’re offering water to a person who’s self-identified as thirsty, and yet they react as if we were trying to poison them! They turn on a dime to defend the same institutions whose lies they were denouncing just moments before. At this point the sense of pride and accomplishment that comes from seeing through propaganda and putting puzzle pieces together into a satisfying historical account gets brutally transformed into its exact opposite: a sense of crushing defeat. In response to this bitter experience, many researchers — serious people, with plenty of experience reading and writing, and sometimes even of being published! — lash out. They decide that people have been “brainwashed” beyond the point where they can be reached by words or rational appeal. They “realize” that the masters of propaganda have been far more successful than we first imagined: it turns out we’re not David fighting Goliath, we’re more like an ant facing an asteroid.
interesting piece, extremely funny opening quote comparison
Man I just don’t understand the hate hexbears got at all. When world defederated or whatever I switched to an instance that had both so I could see what they were talking about and I didn’t see any hexbears “trolling tankies” bullshit they were talking about. Libs are fucking stupid.
There are a large number of extreme neoliberals and anticommunists on world. Their news comm is horrendous.
They are quite happy to lie, relentlessly, there are numerous threads where they talk about Hexbear users being hateful, or fascists, or spreading hatespeech, or an op that is actually just fascist. Etc etc.
They are liars and relentlessly lie to smear opposition that they do not want people to investigate for themselves.
Others see these lies upvoted and assume they are true. They then REPEAT the lies as fact, genuinely believing them to be true.
All part of the century long anti communist propaganda machine. Same shit different day.
The only comms I’ve been banned from are worlds news and political Memes ones.
News was simply asking why something someone said was removed and they apparently had started banning people if quoting from modlog… And don’t get me started on their zionist mod who swears it has no impact on their modding
Not seeing the revolutionary potential of hexbear is an indication of your deeply unserious liberalism.
Hahahaha perfect response.
Life under capitalism leaves a socialism-shaped hole in one’s imagination. We are trained from birth to stay away from this hole. It is the abode of spectres, and nothing makes it go away. If the lemmitors didn’t conduct in vain their spectre-banishing rituals, they wouldn’t be liberals.
Life under capitalism leaves a socialism-shaped hole in one’s imagination.
Banger
Honestly good enough to be a site tagline
tankie tankie go rob bankie
find the boss and use your shankieTo add to the excellent points here: they are incredibly propagandised and treat-brained. While they recognise the social evils of fascism and some of the micro oppressions of capitalism, any position or person that asks them to admit that current systems are fundamentally, structurally broken (or worse, to do something about it) provokes a wave of anxiety about losing what they know and guilt about benefiting from the system/not coming across as leftist as they wish to appear. “Tankie” is simply a deflection, a manifestation of their avoidant behaviour so that they don’t have to feel those difficult, shameful, but ultimately growth-provoking feelings.
Also, by co-opting a term from leftist infighting, they can signal that they consider themselves lefties, without needing to actually engage in any of the critical thought required.
They don’t like knowing they’re morally bankrupt and should have higher standards for their politics and the world around them, we’re the kid in class that reminds teacher of the homework that’s due, but it’s human rights and decency
Since “liberals” are inherently reactionary even the most “progressive” among them, like their conservative fellow travelers, believe in the idea of a “radical left.”
Communists and socialists are becoming less taboo as words so they use the euphemism of “tankie” to denote the left they deem radical.
The problem is those “radical” positions are like unwavering anti-racism so they can’t condemn that because the alternative is being “pro racism” (note, the chuds squared this circle by being “anti-antifa” the lib solution is a bit more overwrought) so instead they just condemn a nebulous “tankie” occupying the end of a political spectrum only they believe in.
communism is re surging and the ruling class is terrified
commie is not a word people use anymore so they use tankie instead
Wtf is going on.
The Western mind is forever programmed into fascism by the last cold war.
A tank broke up their parent’s marriage.
burst through the dining room wall like the juggernaut and mum immediately filed for divorce smh