Thought this might spur some decent discussion. Lots of libs in the comments but a few good points made.

  • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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    24 days ago

    Delusional woke scolding liberals who systematically miss the forest for the trees and seem to always suspiciously lay the blame for society’s ills back on the left that isn’t in power

    Hmm, where have I seen this tired formula before? seen-this-one

    • mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org
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      24 days ago

      What forest is being missed for what trees by saying “I am not safe and cannot participate if you, the movement of the people, do not do anything to prevent the spread of a virus among the people that does cumulative, permanent damage to the whole body and at present has no cure or treatment”? Please tell me.

      • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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        23 days ago

        The “forest” is the obvious fact society’s cavalier attitude toward covid is not the fault of the left and certainly not the fault of whatever individual popular leftists ticked that user off, but instead of grappling with those basic facts and constructing an analysis that can lead to actionable practical corrections made by both orgs and individuals, the libs in that thread want to moralize ad nasuasum as if the wider left is in any position to dictate health policies for anything other than the most irrevleant spaces

        • mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org
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          23 days ago

          “Society doesn’t do it so we can’t be expected to either” is not the justification I would use when talking about supposed groups of revolutionaries.

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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            23 days ago

            but instead of grappling with those basic facts and constructing an analysis that can lead to actionable practical corrections made by both orgs and individuals

            It’s not a matter of “we can’t be expected to either” and more a matter of accounting for reality and doing something other than moralizing at the void

            • mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org
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              23 days ago

              And the reality is that masks are easily procured and distributed where it is possible, which is a fair amount of places! You can read my other posts in this thread about what this looks like “in reality” if you are actually curious about this and not just doing the abrasive internet argument thing, which I am not hopeful is the case. Just about every urban center in the US and then some has a COVID-aware mask bloc very eager to help any group or demonstration with logistics, supply, and education when it is wanted. Guess when it is wanted, and by which organizations? The answer is never, and none. That is not a matter of logistics and lack of holistic analysis, but a matter of will. None of you think this matters enough to do something about it when the doing is indeed very doable. When’s the last time you wore a mask, or did anything to help mitigate the spread of COVID in your organizing? I can probably make a good guess: not anytime in the last…I’ll say 4 years, at least? But nothing has materially changed since then, except that disease has gotten even worse around the board, which sounds like even more of an argument in favor of being militant about the prevention of its spread. Respirators are in fact easier than ever to come by. They practically give them away surplus now, and there’s nothing functionally wrong with them. Where is your analysis? Where is your action?

              • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                23 days ago

                And the reality is that masks are easily procured and distributed where it is possible, which is a fair amount of places!

                Are you telling me or American Society in whole? I mask, you think you’re gonna tell me something I don’t already know?

                That is not a matter of logistics and lack of holistic analysis, but a matter of will

                Well you better hope that’s not the case, cause if it’s a battle between your will and the dumb atomized mass of American society, then you’re gonna lose

                So maybe we should take the need to perform a holistic analysis a little more seriously

                Where is your analysis?

                There’s no united left media ecosystem that can provide a counternarrative to the dual threats of covid denialism and liberal post-pandemic assurances, orgs serious about combating these scourges should be collating long covid data and testimony and sensationalizing it at arenas of media virality like town halls and school board meetings, a mirror strategy to the right’s anti-woke crusades at local level during the Biden years…that’s just the start

                • mononoke@lemmy.sdf.org
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                  23 days ago

                  Are you telling me or American Society in whole? I mask, you think you’re gonna tell me something I don’t already know?

                  Did you know that? By the rest of your posts you seem more concerned about “scolds” on the wrong side of the fence correctly criticizing a blind spot in your movements than the fact that these cadres exist and do this work you are now telling me is impossible and also not happening. Are you helping to make it happen?

                  Well you better hope that’s not the case, cause if it’s a battle between your will and the dumb atomized mass of American society, then you’re gonna lose

                  …and they say I’m a “doomer”! Then what’s the point of any of this? You’ve proven the scolds right.

                  • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                    23 days ago

                    …and they say I’m a “doomer”! Then what’s the point of any of this? You’ve proven the scolds right.

                    You do understand organizational success is independent of your individualistic WILL? Covid denialism is the result of organization, not willpower, so unlike the scolds in that thread we collectively have to counter-organize against it. And we don’t do that by blaming covid denialism on the left…

                    Hence, we’re back to seeing the forest instead of the trees, which was my whole point the entire time

      • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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        23 days ago

        Everyday I’m shocked at how many popular “leftists” on the internet (& in my personal life) don’t mask. I want leaders & educators to look up to but can’t help feeling betrayed, confused, and honestly embarrassed for them about their lack of awareness or care.

        Does this strike you as a person who cares about orgs? What they seem to care about is feeling superior to their parasocial crushes online

        • rootsbreadandmakka [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          23 days ago

          Expecting the people who cast themselves as leaders of a movement to actually practice what they preach is not some sort of selfish desire to feel superior

          • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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            23 days ago

            Hoisting your leadership on a pedestal and refusing to allow them the right of exigency and practicality is selfish behavior

            The left is not in any position to organize society along health-friendly lines, yet every lib in that thread seems to think they live in a reality where that is the case

            It’s a refusal to grasp functional context is any serious way, and instead confuses demoralization with nominal notions of accountability, in other words next to useless crap

            • rootsbreadandmakka [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              23 days ago

              This is nonsense. You describe a situation where we are not allowed to ask or expect anything of our leaders lest we be deemed selfish. Where we are not allowed to fight for a better society since doing so would just be impractical. Should our forebears have decided that to fight against racism in a fundamentally racist society was impractical, that to fight against homophobia in a fundamentally homophobic society was impractical? If that’s your idea of revolution count me out.

              • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                23 days ago

                This is nonsense. You describe a situation where we are not allowed to ask or expect anything of our leaders lest we be deemed selfish

                The ability of leadership to exercise exigency or practicality does not make them immune to critique or assessment; in fact when we do away with the distracting idealism, we open the path towards a more competent and rigorous application of constructive critique that actually cares about results rather than the appearance of propriety

                Should our forebears have decided that to fight against racism in a fundamentally racist society was impractical, that to fight against homophobia in a fundamentally homophobic society was impractical?

                Are you under the impression none of those movements engaged in pragmatism or the practical application of theory? You think they weren’t shooting from one adaptive strategy to the next, you think they were all squeaky clean angels without a problematic bone in their bodies?

                You mention my “idea of revolution”, I wonder at yours

                • LeninWeave [none/use name, any]@hexbear.net
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                  23 days ago

                  As far as I can tell, you’re not actually saying anything in this comment. What is “exigency and practicality” in this case? What would be the “more competend and rigorous application of constructive critique”?

                  • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                    23 days ago

                    As far as I can tell, it’s pretty easy to figure out; first (unlike the scolds in that thread) recognize the left isn’t to blame for Covid denialism; second, elevate the right of remote participation as a universal expectation (something most VTuber groups have figured out) while maintaining the right of leadership and members to organize in certain contexts (particularly outreach) without constant referral to hazmat protocols

                    And third recognizing the fight over Covid awareness has been temporarily lost due to the sheer nonexistence of organized leftist counter-messaging

                    All subject to constant reassessment and adaptation as conditions improve or worsen

                  • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                    23 days ago

                    Nah, I’m cogent enough to recognize there are real solutions to problems

                    There’s no united left media ecosystem that can provide a counternarrative to the dual threats of covid denialism and liberal post-pandemic assurances, orgs serious about combating these scourges should be collating long covid data and testimony and sensationalizing it at arenas of media virality like town halls and school board meetings, a mirror strategy to the right’s anti-woke crusades at local level during the Biden years…that’s just the start

                    Meanwhile, someone screaming about how they can’t take leftists seriously because they don’t mask is the definition of inaction inertia

            • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              23 days ago

              The left is not in any position to organize society along health-friendly lines, yet every lib in that thread seems to think they live in a reality where that is the case

              yes but people in orgs have the power to organise in a safe way. is that not true?

            • ComradeRat [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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              23 days ago

              Step one of being in position to organise society along health friendly lines would be working to make our orgs covid safe instead of complaining about people talking about how our orgs arent covid safe. Wtf are you crashing out over this for