is everything material subject to dialectics, such as chemistry, biology, atomic theory, quantum theory, etc?

  • happybadger [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    13 days ago

    One of my favourite theorists is the Marxist evolutionary biologist Richard Lewontin. In books like The Dialectical Biologist and Biology as Ideology, he studied the dialectic between organism and environment to understand biology in its wider context. The role of a Marxist scientist is to be anti-Cartesian, pushing for a broader intersectional understanding of a subject with the intent of changing something through political means instead of reductively isolating things until they reinforce existing power structures. My horticulture and socioecology work is doing Marxist geography with plants that I understand through Marxist ethics/biology. Nature is the proof of dialectics and each plant is nothing but internal and external dialectics across spacetime. The praxis of the work is creating the most scientifically valid space that achieves the greatest socioecological mission over time, transforming the city’s greenspace in line with my Marxist urbanism, art theory, and pedagogy views. Nothing has been more important for my work than a formal and applied understanding of dialectical materialism.

    • Started reading The Dialectical Biologist just from the name just because I studied biology and seeing the name was like “probably the book I should have been aware of 20 years ago” and oh my god this thing is a banger!

      Only read the intro so far and:

      But nothing evokes as much hostility among intellectuals as the suggestion that social forces influence or even dictate either the scientific method or the facts and theories of science. The Cartesian social analysis of science, like the Cartesian analysis in science, alienates science from society, making scientific fact and method “objective” and beyond social influence. Our view is different. We believe that science, in all its senses, is a social process that both causes and is caused by social organization. To do science is to be a social actor engaged, whether one likes it or not, in political activity. The denial of the interpenetration of the scientific and the social is itself a political act, giving support to social structures that hide behind scientific objectivity to perpetuate dependency, exploitation, racism, elitism, colonialism.

      This is also 100% relevant to the thesis I am writing right now in a completely different field. It’s directly useful for the argument I am working on.

      Thank you for making me aware of this!

      • happybadger [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        13 days ago

        It’s the best framework I’ve found for Marxist scientific philosophy. I’m not good enough at mathematics to thrive in a lab, but I can absorb interdisciplinary theory to spot contradictions and resolve them. Science becomes a holistic feedback loop driving community and ecological participation/wellbeing, creating the conditions for others to do natural experiments instead of just passively observing and classifying. The revolutionary project tied to it brings a moral and ethical framework that can’t be corrupted in the ways bourgeois science is.

  • GeckoChamber [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    13 days ago

    I think there is a mistake people make (those both for and against dialectics applying to nature and non-social sciences), where they expect nature to “follow” dialectical schema, as if a molecule had to open a tiny book of communist theory to know when to dissociate. I think this understanding of dialectics comes from a long history of using scientific phenomena as examples when explaining common tools of dialectical thinking. It’s a little crude.

    Rather, dialectics is about how to think better, without reifying or being one-sided. There is no reason it shouldn’t apply to everything we can think about. To claim that dialectics apply to science means that using dialectics gives us a better understanding than a “metaphysical” view (or whatever you want to call the opposite of a dialectical view), and from personal experience I very much believe it does.

    • Jabril [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      13 days ago

      This is a great point. I think when people start their journey into Marxism, they imagine dialectical materialism as prescriptive and then look towards revolutionary figures to tell them what to do. They miss the entire point that it is a way of thinking and analyzing. What we can learn from revolutionaries of the past is how they gathered and analyzed data to figure out what they could do to change their societies. It is all about observing things and studying how they really exist and then based on that, how change is inevitably going to happen and how you can interact with things to change them faster and in the direction you want the change to end up.

  • Keld [he/him, any]@hexbear.net
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    13 days ago

    Im the sense that scientific debate can be seen as a form of dialectics, yes.

    In the sense that the krebs cycle or gravity are somehow subject to hegelianism, and you can discover scientific principles by just applying hegel hard enough at it? No. That’s just Engels getting over his skis and you can call me a menshevik for that if you want.

  • StillNoLeftLeft [none/use name, she/her]@hexbear.net
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    13 days ago

    Yes.

    This too is a great read:

    At the heart of Dialectical Physics lies a radical yet rigorously grounded proposition: that contradiction is not merely a feature of our descriptions of the world, but a fundamental property of being itself. Reality, according to this framework, is not a static assemblage of immutable entities, but a continuously evolving field of oppositional forces in dynamic tension. These contradictions are not errors to be eliminated or logical inconsistencies to be corrected; rather, they are the generative principles of change, motion, and transformation. This view redefines existence not as something fixed, but as processual becoming—a ceaseless unfolding driven by the internal polarities embedded within every phenomenon.

    A striking example of this ontological contradiction is the relationship between mass and space. In classical physics, mass is treated as substance—an intrinsic property of matter, dense and cohesive, capable of exerting gravitational pull. Space, conversely, is conceived as an inert background—an empty arena in which objects reside and events transpire. But Dialectical Physics reconceptualizes space as a material field in its own right, albeit one that expresses the opposite tendency of mass: instead of cohesion and concentration, space manifests decohesion and extension. Mass pulls inward; space pushes outward. Their dialectical opposition is not antagonistic but constitutive—it is through their tension that the curvature of spacetime, gravitational dynamics, and the very architecture of the cosmos arise. Gravity itself is not merely a force among others, but the dialectical negotiation between mass-induced cohesion and the expansive tension of space.

    This dialectical insight extends seamlessly into the quantum realm, where the most celebrated puzzle—wave-particle duality—can be reinterpreted as an ontological unity of opposites. Quantum entities are not “really” waves or “really” particles; rather, they embody both modes of being in a unified yet internally contradictory totality. The wave aspect reveals a continuous, probabilistic, and field-like character, while the particle aspect reveals localization, discreteness, and interactional finitude. These are not separate identities, but dialectical poles within a singular, dynamic process. The apparent paradox is a reflection of our attempt to describe a dialectical reality using static classical categories. Only when we accept that the electron, the photon, or the quantum system is both continuous and discrete, depending on context, do we begin to grasp the depth of dialectical unity in quantum phenomena.

    Thus, Dialectical Physics affirms that contradiction is not a breakdown of logic—it is the logic of breakdown and breakthrough, the method through which systems evolve, transform, and generate novelty. Whether in the behavior of subatomic particles, the formation of stars, the evolution of life, or the dialectics of society, it is through the struggle of opposing forces that reality moves forward. Motion, structure, complexity, and emergence are not byproducts—they are expressions of contradiction-in-process. To engage with the universe truthfully, we must learn not merely to observe it but to think it dialectically—to embrace contradiction as the ontological engine of all that is, was, and is yet to become.

  • Bolshechick [it/its, she/her]@hexbear.net
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    12 days ago

    Yes, or, at least in practice it does. You can debate if that means just that we understand everything diallectically because that’s just how our perception and knowledge faculties are or because things “actually” are that way in some metaphysical way if you really want to. But I think that is an irrelevant meaningless question/distinction, the kind that Marxism, as a philosophy, does away with.

  • Blep [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    13 days ago

    Dialectics can only change how we interpret the material, not the material itself. Its just an epistemology.

  • WhatDoYouMeanPodcast [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    13 days ago

    There are plenty of types of coevolution with predators and prey. The lifecycle of bacteria, fungi, worms, and viruses can elucidate a food web by showing where different parts of their maturation happen. So immune systems and virulence create a super structure in a sense.

    There’s competition for binding for receptors in natural environments as far as biochemistry is concerned. Something about the sensitivity and number of receptors being a super structure.

    But generally science has no obligation to make sense. The higgs field probably doesn’t exist in response to some other force in a sense that is readily attributes to Hegalian dynamics. The scientific method is a different way by which you can observe the way things happen.

  • plinky [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    12 days ago

    As there are no positive feedback loop systems, everything is dialectical (acting agent or process with a negative feedback loop is synthesized into describing system as a whole, both the actor and the limit, providing new holistic view)

    But no, dialectics is about processes, not facts, and thus in science a sane way for dialectics is theory developments among community (purely socially idealistic theory of science, if we take hegelian) or searching for limits of something (where “antithesis” starts to play a role), even in thought experiments, to find the counteracting forces or logic. Particle moving in empty space is not, per se, a process, in its own frame it’s stationary and without any reference you can’t even determine if it’s moving. not everything is useful to be thought about as a system or process, sometimes models do just fine job of describing stuff

    Like say a light reflection, without thinking too much about how it works you can perfectly well construct a shitty telescope, just knowing that angle of incidence and angle of reflection are equal. But then you can start thinking about process of reflection, would it work with 1 atom thin mirror (no), would it work with very thin stripes of metal (oops, got a rainbow), would it work with non metal (yes, but weird stuff with polarization), would it work with light intensity bigger than heat dissipation (also no), the process of reflection contains within it the limits of what you can do, but most of the time you don’t care about them, and simple law gives you enough info (but doesn’t describe those limits, and thus you construct a new law or model when you run into them, meanwhile underlying process was always the same)

    just as well you can construct materialistic social dialectics of science, for example you can’t make a looking glass without material advances in glass making and polishing stuff by some nerds in venice. you can invent most beautiful theories of light imaginable in ancient egypt, won’t bring you any closer to making lasers. science and applied engineering/materials exist in very tight (dialectical) relationships, you invent new stuff to investigate something, than new stuff is used somewhere else to discover something else, they coexist and push each other and limit each other

    • SchillMenaker [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      12 days ago

      I’ve written and deleted like ten paragraphs in this thread and your comment, while sometimes meandering (which I very much also am), gets after a major core of what I wanted to say.

      There are comments here suggesting that nature contains contradictions. The idea that you can believe that your philosophy is rational and also that the natural world bends in any way to your perception is nonsensical. Dialectics can be applied to anything that humans perceive, but only to the part of it that resides in our perception. It cannot ever be applied to the underlying thing.

      • plinky [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        12 days ago

        Why? World doesn’t bend to perceptions, it simply is, but processes, those we observe, and there positive feedback loops would be our friendo not containing contradictions for this silly game.

        This side of black hole formation (and even there, for outside observer, the limits are in the possible metric deformation and resulting black hole is a resolution, hiding singularity from us forever (maybe, pending evaporation), big bang and universe evolution, and maybe some quantum effect im missing, we don’t have those, be it due to conservation of energy or whatever. Might just be they exist, then we’ll have to construct them, or they are outside of perceptions, making their existence trivial from science perspective (you can make a lot of predictions of things which cannot ever be observed, wouldn’t be science tho).

        Laws and equations don’t describe the underlying thing, they describe a model which sufficiently matches observations and makes predictions, which, core leap in philosophy of science we assume, are better matched to reality. You can always say reality is completely unknowable, but then - why science works, what changes with better model? Some outside creature making fun of us?