Yeah… I don’t blame you. I’m a pretty traditionally masc dude and I don’t have any male friends anymore. The fucking manosphere bullshit has really made dudes loose what little sense of reality they still possessed. I think having a little more than a touch of the ism might have made me immune?
My last and longest held male friend ended up transitioning, so now I primarily hang with trans people and a bunch of lesbians from my job.
I totally get it. There’s one (somewhat gender non-conforming) man in my close friend group. There used to be another, but they came out as genderfluid non-binary. I think even if cis men (or people with strong life long privilege because of how they are perceived as men within patriarchy) reject patriarchy, they still have a responsibility to put work into relationships with other cis men. Even if it’s easier to just hang with non-male friends. Someone has to do the work of educating them and why should the main victims of patriarchy have to do it instead of the ones who suffer least from it and benefit the most? Also, I knew multiple cis men (no longer friends), who strongly preferred friendships with women because they enjoyed how their female friends actually had taken time to learn the social skills necessary for a good friendship (like talking about emotions). They let them do all this emotional labor, without ever putting anything in themselves. And without ever trying to change what male friendships could mean. They had male friendships, but would only really open up and be vulnerable to women. If men isolate themselves from other men, men won’t change. They need to take a risk and be vulnerable with other men.
they still have a responsibility to put work into relationships with other cis men. Even if it’s easier to just hang with non-male friends. Someone has to do the work of educating them and why should the main victims of patriarchy have to do it instead of the ones who suffer least from it and benefit the most?
I’ve definitely done my best to educate other cis men, ends up they typically really don’t like that. I’m getting old enough where I just don’t know very many young men, and a lot of my previous cis men friends my age just became self destructive at some point and went no contact or have killed themselves.
They let them do all this emotional labor, without ever putting anything in themselves. And without ever trying to change what male friendships could mean
Yeah, that is my experience with most relationships with my fellow cis male counterparts. Like, I can only talk about sports or videogames for so long before I start not feeling like a real person anymore. I never really understood friendships where it was taboo to talk about your experience with the human condition.
If men isolate themselves from other men, men won’t change.
I’ve kinda lost faith that this will happen anytime soon. Anytime I try to talk with other men about real emotions and life they either retreat from engagement, or end up being gender fluid.
Yeah, I totally understand and relate with all your points. I didn’t mean to direct this at you anymore than at myself. It’s not easy. But it gives me hope, that more and more people come out as genderfluid, trans and/or nonbinary. Especially younger people often amaze me.
Do you perhaps already know bell hooks book “The Will to Change - Man, Masculinity and Love”? It really inspired me to reflect on my upbringing and my relationships. And last time I checked, there was a free audiobook on YouTube.
didn’t mean to direct this at you anymore than at myself.
No worries, I didn’t take it that way. I totally agree, sometimes it just feels like leading a dehydrated horse to water and instead of drinking they eat a bunch of sand.
Do you perhaps already know bell hooks book “The Will to Change - Man, Masculinity and Love”?
Yeah i read it a long time ago in college. It was kinda a surprise how much of a revelation it was for a lot of guys. To me expressing your feelings and being intimate with friends always seemed to be natural. However, I am part of a non western immigrant family. So maybe I just didn’t get a lot of baggage that is innate to American/western culture.
![[CW: SA] my goodness, what an idea](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4622961b-c0fc-45c6-90ee-44bd9ab349b1.jpeg){kind=link}
Thanks for the source
One of the reasons I plan to stay the fuck away from men.
Yeah… I don’t blame you. I’m a pretty traditionally masc dude and I don’t have any male friends anymore. The fucking manosphere bullshit has really made dudes loose what little sense of reality they still possessed. I think having a little more than a touch of the ism might have made me immune?
My last and longest held male friend ended up transitioning, so now I primarily hang with trans people and a bunch of lesbians from my job.
I totally get it. There’s one (somewhat gender non-conforming) man in my close friend group. There used to be another, but they came out as genderfluid non-binary. I think even if cis men (or people with strong life long privilege because of how they are perceived as men within patriarchy) reject patriarchy, they still have a responsibility to put work into relationships with other cis men. Even if it’s easier to just hang with non-male friends. Someone has to do the work of educating them and why should the main victims of patriarchy have to do it instead of the ones who suffer least from it and benefit the most? Also, I knew multiple cis men (no longer friends), who strongly preferred friendships with women because they enjoyed how their female friends actually had taken time to learn the social skills necessary for a good friendship (like talking about emotions). They let them do all this emotional labor, without ever putting anything in themselves. And without ever trying to change what male friendships could mean. They had male friendships, but would only really open up and be vulnerable to women. If men isolate themselves from other men, men won’t change. They need to take a risk and be vulnerable with other men.
I’ve definitely done my best to educate other cis men, ends up they typically really don’t like that. I’m getting old enough where I just don’t know very many young men, and a lot of my previous cis men friends my age just became self destructive at some point and went no contact or have killed themselves.
Yeah, that is my experience with most relationships with my fellow cis male counterparts. Like, I can only talk about sports or videogames for so long before I start not feeling like a real person anymore. I never really understood friendships where it was taboo to talk about your experience with the human condition.
I’ve kinda lost faith that this will happen anytime soon. Anytime I try to talk with other men about real emotions and life they either retreat from engagement, or end up being gender fluid.
Yeah, I totally understand and relate with all your points. I didn’t mean to direct this at you anymore than at myself. It’s not easy. But it gives me hope, that more and more people come out as genderfluid, trans and/or nonbinary. Especially younger people often amaze me.
Do you perhaps already know bell hooks book “The Will to Change - Man, Masculinity and Love”? It really inspired me to reflect on my upbringing and my relationships. And last time I checked, there was a free audiobook on YouTube.
No worries, I didn’t take it that way. I totally agree, sometimes it just feels like leading a dehydrated horse to water and instead of drinking they eat a bunch of sand.
Yeah i read it a long time ago in college. It was kinda a surprise how much of a revelation it was for a lot of guys. To me expressing your feelings and being intimate with friends always seemed to be natural. However, I am part of a non western immigrant family. So maybe I just didn’t get a lot of baggage that is innate to American/western culture.
Me too, but on my family, the baggage of civil war and early loss left some marks.
I feel ya there, we definitely have some issues for similar reasons but male bonding and not expressing your feelings didn’t seem to be one of them.
Definitely a good idea, sadly