- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmit.online
DoorDash now warns you that your food might get cold if you don’t tip::The app-based delivery service is alerting customers that drivers may not take their order in a timely manner if there is no tip included upfront.
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“Drivers will retaliate against you if you do not cover the part of their wage we refuse to pay them.”
There, fixed that for you, DoorDash.
I used to work in that crummy space on the HQ side of things.
That’s a little part of it, but there are bigger reasons. Orders with low driver payouts are less likely to get claimed by the contractors in the market. They will sit around longer waiting to get picked up.
Moreover, in order to move a low paying order, DoorDash’s algorithm will be more likely to bundle the order with one or two other orders. That will boost the payout or the claimed job, but it will also make your food wait on a counter an in a car.
You tried to say that it wasn’t DoorDash’s fault for paying like shit, but then went on to qualify every other reason with “low paying order” - none of that would matter if DoorDash didn’t pay like shit.
Oh, it’s 100% doordash’s fault. I completely agree. The base pay needs to be livable.
My point was that it’s not like a dasher is going to slow walk your burger because you didn’t tip. If they see a low payout, they don’t claim it.
DoorDash likes to guilt trip the customer into tipping, when they really should just pay better.
They know that by having a separate tip line, instead of one larger service fee charge, people get tricked into thinking delivery is more affordable than it is. It’s all a bunch of dark pattern shit that fucks over customers and drivers. We need regulations around this space.
It seems like ticket master with the fees at the end and then have people go well I’m already this far into the cart so I might as well check out, or electronics where the starting price is low then few upgrades and price is more than double the initial eye catching low base price.
It’s all pricing tricks except in this one they shift the blame to customers and workers while upper management watches them fight. And tricked people into saying it’s somehow impossible to actually charge a product to account for all the overhead because it’s a services and acting like every other monetary based activity isn’t a service too but doesn’t have pricing problems.
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Hey, I’m the first one in line to shit talk gig economy work. Christ, my ass got canned for being a highly internal visible leader, at large delivery service, who was constantly leading and highlighting internal research that showed big concerns with pay (or lack thereof).
That said, if you want to know why orders without tips come cold, it’s primarily because low dollar amounts are undesirable to claim.
DoorDash wants likes to dupe the customer instead of just charging the real full service price at checkout. $5 isn’t enough money for someone to want to spend 45min in time and gas for your burger.
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Seems genuine to me. Why are you being a prick while adding nothing to the discussion?
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@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world Ignore this asshole
100%
They were definitely not assuming good intent. I was just trying to provide some dirt that others might not be aware of.
We all get that
Yea so I’m a driver and the characterization that it’s drivers retaliating against customers is… wrong. When we skip an order it’s because it will literally cost us money to deliver, and it’s DoorDash that we’re saying no to.
The problem isn’t the drivers, it’s DoorDash and their unwillingness to pay us appropriately. They’ve recently reduced the base payout to $2, and there’s no delivery where $2 is enough to cover costs of delivery, let alone make the extra few bucks that we’re doing this shitty job for.
DoorDash is actively disincentivizing drivers from taking orders that customers don’t tip on. Please don’t blame drivers for DoorDash’s shitty business practices.
Then why do it? Aren’t regular Uber/Lyft trips more worth it?
Car insurance costs go up quite a lot of you do Uber
Fucking… LIE god damn. The insurance company isn’t gonna find out your doing Uber unless you tell them.
They will easily find out when it shows up in a police report for a fender bender.
The legroom in my backseat (‘13 Ford Focus) is garbage and wildly uncomfortable. I also don’t really like people enough for that and prefer doing delivery, on top of having a bit more control over where I operate by delivering. I live in a small city north of Seattle and can keep my deliveries all within 5 miles and still make $30/hour. I don’t think I could do that doing rideshare.
Do you actually make $30 an hour after you factor in gas, maintenance, milage, etc?
No, def not. I’m talking gross. I set aside half for taxes, car maintenance, gas, etc, and keep about 15/hour.
Delivery drivers are independent contractors and DoorDash facilitates the meeting of drivers and customers. The fees go towards DoorDash and the driver, and the customer can add an additional payment to the driver to make their order more enticing to accept. There’s no “refusing to pay wages” in this situation. If you want to go with the ultra low cost option, it will not be attractive to drivers so you may wait longer.
You can twist the words all you like, but DoorDash is still an employer, and they still pay like shit.
DoorDash is an “employer” as in they have employees, but the drivers are independent contractors. Employees at DoorDash are support staff, coders, etc. DoorDash pay is clearly good enough to attract many independent contractors to deliver for them, and because they are contractors they have all the options.
Them being contractors is legal bullshit. Many of the apps forbid you from running other apps at the same time, they assign orders to you, it’s not an open list, and if you deny too many orders most of the apps will stop assigning you orders. They’re de facto employees that the companies lie about to not pay taxes and benefits
Them being contractors is legal bullshit.
What makes it “legal bullshit”? They are legally independent contractors, and that’s not something that we’re just taking their word for. There are legal tests to determine whether or not someone is an employee or an independent contractor, and there have been lawsuits about this topic as well.
Many of the apps forbid you from running other apps at the same time
Many? I’ve not heard of this, can you name them? As far as I understand it’s quite common for drivers to multi-app.
they assign orders to you, it’s not an open list
Orders are offered to drivers who then choose whether or not to accept them.
They’re de facto employees that the companies lie about to not pay taxes and benefits
That’s your opinion. As of right now it’s not backed up by anything substantial, and it’s not looking likely to change. You don’t need to accuse companies of serious fraud just because you don’t like them.
I’m aware they are legally “contractors”. It’s bullshit.
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There HAVE been lawsuits, yes! And DoorDash lost the class action that alleged they misclassified its workers as independent contractors when they should be classed as employees. They paid 100mil for that, and that’s just one case.
But don’t just take my word for it. Here’s Californias labor laws on the test for determining employee vs contractor;
Under the ABC test, a worker is considered an employee and not an independent contractor, unless the hiring entity satisfies all three of the following conditions:
- The worker is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work, both under the contract for the performance of the work and in fact;
- The worker performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business; and
- The worker is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as that involved in the work performed.
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No, it’s simply the quickest way to add an additional income for desperate people needing a second job. No interviews, no resume needed, you don’t even need a car.
I quit after I realized it was costing more in gas and car maintenance than I was making. Imagine driving 20 miles for $3. With pick up and drop off, that’s at least half an hour. At that rate, you’re making $6/hour. It absolutely 100% depends on customer tips to actually pay it’s dashers
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Yeah, let me know how to get GrubHub to even respond to a support request for an order that never arrived, much less refund me and then you can tell me GrubHub is better. I had an order that was never delivered on Sept 23 and GrubHub has still not responded to or refunded me. At least with Doordash or UberEats I can get issues with my order addressed almost immediately.
Charge it back. If you didn’t get service, no reason they should get money.
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I did that. There were no options, just a dialogue saying they had refunded me a couple dollars for a price mismatch. But no button to report an issue on the app or web, no chat, no email or phone number. Just a Contact Us form that I filled out and submitted with all the information nearly a month ago, and no one from GrubHub has reached out. I finally just did a chargeback a couple days ago.
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Weird, I’ve gotten refunded by them easily in the past.
Huh, good to know, thanks. I don’t use those services often now that Covid is going away, but if I need to again it’s good to know that one isn’t as quite as shitty.
Yeah this is why I only use GrubHub now. I still tip well cause I appreciate people who bring me food and I can afford it.
Geez, I hope they’re paying you to suck their dick this hard
Huh, who knew they had their legal reps on the fediverse.
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It shouldn’t be set up so the customer has to pay more to get good service. They should be able to add a tip afterward if they choose.
I agree but I installed the “shopper” app which is the driver side for instacart while I was between jobs earlier this year. The way it worked is you get an alert so you open the app if someone placed an order. You then see where the order is, how much you will make and can accept it if you want. If doordash works similarly what it sounds like to me is you open the app, and see $x dollars and where it is at and decide if it is worth it to them. If they decide it isn’t, the restaurant is still making that food and waiting on another driver to accept the pickup. So if you open the app and see 3 orders, the ones that pay more and are closest to you is likely what you will choose. So if someone had a McDonald’s order and a BK order and one is paying a lot more) they are going to have a much better time. That is all based off the theory that it works like the instacart setup.
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More like blackmail, specially after this warning.
“that’s a nice lunch you got there. It’d be a shame if something happened to it” - door dash mobster
Tips should always be made after service is rendered, not before.
No, it’s a bid for service. Think auction house restaurant where the only people going to serve you are the ones who think your pay is worth it.
I always heard tips started as “To Insure Prompt Service” or something. Which is basically what you’re doing here with Door dash, so we’ve gone back to the root of tips.
Nah, that’s a Backronym (added to fit the name after the fact.) Tip comes from English slang, meaning “to give”. You can give tips for money or information.
Door dash takes waaaay too much on bs fees from restaurants. If you have to use their app I’d suggest using it to browse menus, calling the restaurant directly and asking if they deliver and order it through them, heck pick up if you can. Fuck all these greedy apps nickle and diming everything.
It almost doubled the cost of my order last time, all the fees and tip bullshit
The last few times I tried to do delivery at food for the family, The price for four fast food meals exceeded going to a decent sit down restaurant and getting a moderate dinner for four.
I’ve never used any of those services. If the restaurant doesn’t deliver, I pick up my order. I also try to go to the restaurant’s website and use whatever ordering system they have there, under the assumption (perhaps mistaken) that the restaurant chose that ordering system because it was the best deal for them.
Fuck all these greedy apps nickle and diming everything.
Isn’t it what’s called shareconomy?’
Isn’t it super fancy?
:-)
No its “gig economy”, and it’s primary purpose seems to be skirting labour laws by calling their employees “independent contractors” so they can save money by screwing the people working for them.
The whole reason I order online is to avoid using the phone. I usually find their website and see if they have their own online ordering. Smaller places often have online ordering provided by an unknown company that charges normal prices instead of having to mark it up to cover DoorDash fees.
Most of the places I’ve tried to order from directly still end up using door dash for the actual delivery. The only place where I’ve seen they actually send out their own driver is a Chinese restaurant near my house.
I’ve gotten drivers from the local pizza place using grubhub but sometimes would get a grubhub driver so at least with grubhub they must have a choice. That pizza place used to have their own online ordering but they sold the business so now they use slice which seems to charge a flat fee. I don’t think slice has their own drivers.
I really only ever order pizza from local places, I’d expect normal restaurants to not have their own drivers.
What’s crazy is that there’s really no reason why it should be the way that it is, where every chain restaurant has a different individualized app, every mid level business has a website, and every mom and pop restaurant you just have to call on the phone, and every business has their own delivery drivers with all these other apps picking up the slack in between. Doordash takes off so much from the top of the order to make it look more appealing, as a service charge, the restaurants just increase prices, the drivers get paid a pittance, probably so does the support staff if I had to guess, and all of their programmers, who are the only party left that the money would go to, the programmers can’t make an app that works for the customers or the drivers. It’s like a lose-lose-lose scenario for anyone that’s not a soulless finance bro.
It’s crazy, if restaurants are at a point where it’s cheaper for them to just have an actual, well paid delivery driver, and just use their own old school apps, websites, and phone lines, rather than paying their fees to a business that could just handle the whole thing for them all in bulk, seeing as the needs from restaurant to restaurant is generally pretty similar. The latter should be the more cost-effective solution, here, it’s fucking nuts.
Call the spot, order it, and go get the food your fuckin self. Stop spending an extra 35% to have somebody working three jobs get it for you.
35%? That shit doubles for me. Fuck DoorDash.
Don’t make me use my phone as a phone damn it!
Stop spending an extra 35% to have somebody working three jobs get it for you.
I don’t how the three jobs factors into this. Surely they actually need those three jobs, they probably aren’t working them for fun. So not like me not ordering helps them in any way.
Giving in to corporate extortionate practices doesn’t help them in any way either.
If you stop using the service that might harm them though. Probably sacked if there’s no work
it does please keep ordering
Only 35%? You must be on the introductory deal.
Try not to be so judgemental.
Hey, why do you hate trickle down economics so much!
/s
If I could do that I wouldn’t use GrubHub in the first place.
You do not need a service that did not exist ten years ago. I promise that you can live without it.
What kind of “tip” is paid upfront before the service is rendered?
Lots of places do this now, unfortunately.
All the ones that are ordered online?
Well that seems a little wrong doesn’t it
Yeah… It doesn’t make sense, it’s either a fee, or it’s as someone else here pointed out a bribe so they might go faster take better care of your food or take your order at all. But nothing ensures that if you pay first …
Tbh I feel like tipping in general should end already… they only thing it makes is desperate people trying to get by instead of getting a proper income to begin with.
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I just said that in the comment just next to that.
Tipping? Yes, very much. The entire concept is silly.
Paying your food order online? No. Why would you want it any other way?
The concept of tipping isn’t silly at all, I’m not sure why NA doesn’t seem to understand how it should work.
I’m fine with tipping, expecting it to happen or forcing it is the weird aspect here.
Why? There’s no reason the tip can’t be added after the delivery has been performed. You know, to incentivize good service, the whole point of a tip? If they already have your money why should they care how good their service is?
Are you for real? Like, how can you bootlick this hard over tipping?
How about you just do the fucking job I already paid for, you know, with the actual price of stuff. And if you service sucks, people won’t order from you. No tipping required for the system to work.
Tipping rather than paying a living wage sucks balls, but if you’re going to do it, it should at least be done the proper way rather than as an extortion before service is even performed.
Many restaurants where you order at the counter as for a tip when you pay.
Literally fucking every place now and I hate it. Ordering take out food that I am picking up myself? It’s “swipe your card here and it’s going to ask you a question”. Literally everywhere. Even places designed to be walk-up and get your food and leave, like a local smoothie place or something.
How about letting us tip afterwards not before. That way we know how much to tip.
How about ditching tips altogether and just paying the drivers a decent, livable wage?
My local pub in Australia just got new POS machines. Day 1 I’m there. They put in the price for your beer on the till, you go to PayPass and walk off, but it’s asking you to tip first. You say “No Tip”, then PayPass and walk off, but then it asks if you’re happy to accept the 1% CC surcharge, being like 9¢. Then you can walk off.
The staff were losing it and apologising. They were so annoyed they just started hitting “No Tip” and “Yes” for people, because that’s how it normally works.
Lowest level minimum wage for someone pouring beer is $24 an hour here.
People still throw cash in the tip jars from time to time, but it’s like when they really appreciate the staff or see they’re having a hectic shift. Even just good conversation or chucking your tunes on, will empty the pocket change in.
That’s how tips should be. Where I live it’s the same probably even more on the no-tipping side. I’ll leave a tip when you’ve gone above and beyond (which is rare, service here is “sober” to put it gently, which is fine, it’s somewhat efficient but just not personal at all).
Or, if you’re the Italian head of bar at the fancy restaurant I took my wife out for anniversary dinner, got seated at a bar table and then you proceed to both entertain us, rock the venue, swap out our inexperienced waitress for the maître d’hôtes, and pour us free drinks on the sly, then you better be sure I’m slipping you a 20€ on the way out. That stuff is extremely rare though.
This
No my tip would be for being lazy and then actually getting it to me fast and correct. Which is why I said afterwards tip not before, because that means I’m not funding their underpaid wage.
As someone that worked in the space, and was forced to AB test this, it’s because pre-tipping increases tip rates and increases the likelihood that an order will be claimed promptly.
That said, if I could wave a magic want and get my way, I’d say that these people need to be employees, and true delivery costs need to not be hidden in fees and tips.
It IS expensive to deliver stuff, and we need to be upfront with that.
It would be much worse for the drivers in that case because they would have to gamble on whether an order would be good to take or not. We’ve already seen something similar on Uber Eats where they allowed people to fully change tips retroactively, so people would get their orders accepted quicker with a large tip and then just remove it once they got their food.
It’s not a tip then. A tip is a reward for services rendered. A tip paid before services are rendered is not a tip. It is part of the bill.
Yes, exactly. They copied the traditional food delivery formula but should have modified it to fit the contractor model.
Whine some more then, it’s not going to change. It’s more important that drivers get paid than you saving a few bucks.
I get why people are annoyed by tips and why, but god damn some of you sound entitled as fuck on social media.
You can’t have it both ways. If drivers get paid a living wage it’s still going to come out of your pocket one way or the other.
Tips are arbitrary anyway. Fuck tipping culture. I don’t get delivery because it’s too expensive and I can do it myself for cheaper. But if you want something and pay the bill that gets charged for the service then that should pay for everything including the employees.
Then it’s not a tip and they should include it in the price
Tipping is literally becoming extortion now.
The end result of the tipping surge is going to be the collapse of all tipped work. People will stop using tipped services entirely and eventually the pyramid of wealthy users who can afford increasingly high tip is going to shrink.
I’m a school bus driver and we get tips (at Christmastime and the end of the school year) for no fucking reason that I can figure out. This is bad enough as it is, but last Christmas one of my co-workers actually handed out fucking tip envelopes (like what the garbage collectors give out) to the kids on his buses. I was at least pleasantly surprised that he got in trouble for this.
I usually give a tip to you guys around that time of the year. Why shouldn’t I? 180 days of the year, 2x a day I depend on you and I have had no problems. This is for two kids btw. Think of anything in your life that you use 720 times in one year without issue. So yeah here is 20 bucks happy holidays.
Why shouldn’t I?
Because we’re not volunteers, we get paid. Do you tip everybody who performs a service of any kind for you? I used to write software for a living and nobody ever tipped me.
Thanks for the $20 BTW - it’s not like I throw out the gift cards or anything, I just think it’s weird.
I am sorry you didn’t get a Christmas bonus. Your old employer sounds like a tool. And no I don’t tip everyone. Also I don’t give gift cards I just give cash, cash is like a gift card but you can use it at more locations so it is better.
jfc
My wife had an employee who was fired from a previous business for taking a tip.
A Christmas present isn’t a tip.
That’s just all of late stage capitalism. Most industries are shrinking bc most people can’t afford to spend on much beyond the basic necessities of rent and food anymore.
I’m in the hotel industry and occupancy rates are declining, people just aren’t going out on vacation like they used to.
Inevitably any service tipped or not will be wealthies-only.
Part of it I blame on anti social behavior among people under 40. We have a lot of extreme social anxiety over simple things like talking on the phone which extends into a severe inability to date. When you have tons of incels that means that means that men and women can’t share the cost of housing and women have to work as much as men, which doubles the workforce. Obviously the solution is not to prohibit women from working, the way that people like Pim Tool like to imply.
Have you considered that people are less social when everything costs so much and people have so little?
That can certainly contribute, though people have been poor in the past and we didn’t have an epidemic of severe social anxiety.
All over the parks here are signs that you can’t use the park unless you have your $35 annual park pass. I’m talking about random dinky local parks. If you can’t pay you can’t even enjoy the trees. In 1980 the average movie ticket was around $2 in 2023 in the city its more like $15. 4 kids want to go see a movie its $60, $80 if they share some drinks/popcorn.
Simultaneously to everything being expensive and having less and less to spare after they pay for drastically more expensive essentials there is more to do and see online without spending a bunch of additional money per unit of time spent.
Adjusted for inflation, that’s three times what it should cost. Four kids, adjusted for inflation, it should only be $23. 15 years ago, loading up on over priced popcorn, soda and candy was only $10.
We have a lot of extreme social anxiety over simple things like talking on the phone which extends into a severe inability to date.
Do we though? I’ve not met anyone like this, but maybe there’s a reason for that. My social circle is outrageously slutty and outgoing. And prefer to share Netflix logins and cook at home because you can have an amazing night at 20% the cost of going out.
I hate to break it to you but it’s always worked like that. I drove pizzas for a long time pre-apps and drivers have always prioritized deliveries based on expected tip. We even had a no-go list by the phone of people who stiffed drivers. If anything it’s way easier to get away with not tipping now.
That’s why the ridiculous North American tipping culture needs to be called out as much as possible.
This is barely related to tipping culture, this is a service bid. They just refuse to call it that.
It’s part of tipping culture because it uses the acceptance of tipping to slip this bidding system in. It also doubles as a tip because there is no separate tip option and tipping is expected for delivery. I’m sure more people wouldn’t mind “bidding” low if it just meant getting their food later. Instead there’s also the specter threat that a disgruntled worker will tamper with their food for daring to make a low “bid”.
You’re more likely to not receive your food then someone tamper with your food.
Just the plausible existence of a threat is enough and tampering has certainly happened before.
Exactly. All the people complaining about extortion don’t understand the economics of Door dash / GrubHub / etc.
The food delivery person sees a potential job come in and can accept or reject it. In a few seconds they decide what to do. If it takes them 10 minutes to go to the place, 10 minutes to wait for the food, and 10 minutes to drive to you, they estimate a total of 30 minutes of work.
Of course they’re not going to do it for no tip. There are plenty of other people tipping. Your food is going to wait for somebody to pick it up for whatever minimum amount DoorDash guarantees them. Maybe there is a second order going in your direction.
I live way out of the city center, but any time I order I don’t tip in advance but my order is picked up near instantly anyways. My trick: living in a country without tipping culture where the drivers are paid for their time no matter how big the order or how far it goes.
This is not even tipping anymore. This is paying to get normal service, not better service.
That’s always been the exact problem with American tipping culture. When it’s expected to tip, you’re no longer doing it to get better service, just normal service - which means it’s just a hidden extra price.
Focusing on the wrong issue, but you’re technically correct. You’re not tipping. You’re guessing at what door dash should be properly paying their employees instead of DD doing it themselves in your favor.
I used to order meals sometimes through these kinds of delivery services but not anymore.
At first they were quite good but then they added extra “service fees” and the markup on the food increased, so did the delivery charge, it’s a joke now and I haven’t used them for a long time, and there’s no good reason to, now.
Even when I do tip, and tip well, they now add so many other stops in between my food and my house that it still arrives cold anyway. I’ve largely stopped using them now too. They were convenient during peak pandemic and our newborn phase at home, but running out to grab take out really isn’t the end of the world again now.
I only use them when I’m too swamped to go grab something or cook.
But one again learned to order at least 90 minutes out from when I expect to eat
Fuck tips.
So pretty much the same as if you do tip.
The order through Door Dash:
- $20
- $2 Tax
- $8 Door Dash Charge
- $6 Initial Tip
- $10 for the Substitution up charge
- $1 Tax for that purchase
- $9 ‘Fuck you’ charge
- $4 Follow Up Tip Total: $60 for your $20 meal you could’ve just gotten your own damn self.
This.
I’ve basically started a Shit List of local restaurants that I simply won’t order from because they do shit like this.
Not just delivery either. If they want to gouge customers like that I’m not getting take out or dining in either.
This implies that your food won’t arrive cold if you do tip, and that hasn’t been my experience at all.
Is it too much to ask that I might be able to just pay for this service? Sometimes I want or need food ordered. If it costs $20 to have it delivered, and pay the delivery person fairly, sometimes that’s worth the cost to me. I wish tips were an extra for “thanks for doing something above and beyond or awesome”. They shouldn’t need to be expected.
$1.99 convenience fee $4.25 app fee $3.99 delivery fee Oh, and don’t forget to tip your driver because none of this goes to them.
^^^^ this cap needs to stop. Just give me the $15-$20 delivery fee and be done with it.
15-20 USD for delivery service is really expensive man.
Which is why it’s only worth it sometimes. If that’s what it takes to provide the service without fucking someone over to the point that I’m expected to help them recoup their loss, then yeah, that’s what it should cost.
This is the spirit is what I’m after. It’s likely usually going to seem lopsided if I’m paying to have one meal delivered, but If in having a meal for a small group or the family with some leftovers expected, it likely seems more reasonable. The people doing the work shouldn’t be getting screwed, the business should get to cover cost and make a small profit, and the customer gets to make choices without having to do fee gymnastics for every different place with a sprinkle of guilt that you’re responsible to decide what to pay the workers via tip.
I expect food delivery to be kinda expensive, you’re usually saving me 30-45 min to go get it, wait for the order, and return.
That’s about what they make with tips and an hourly pay for doing the task. Instead DD has created the system where that responsibility falls on the customer buying food.
No it isnt?
I live in Germany and the delivery cost here is max. 6€, usually 2-3€. Never found any delivery service more expensive than that. My bad…
I just wish the fees weren’t based on a percentage of the total bill, on top of the fact they blatantly jack the menu prices up. A few of us would like to use DD and similar for work lunch, sometimes. The charges for $60-80 of food is ridiculous, when it should be a flat rate for the service. You’d think they would want to incentivize these larger orders. Assuming the food is ready when the driver arrives, there should be no difference for the driver, who would generally get tipped on top.
