And the sound engineer people (not sure if that’s their official title) are* suuuuper condescending about it. “Well it’s your fault for not having a professional setup mixed the same as a theater.”
Edit: *Fixed a typo.
Thanks for the replies people, I’m learning a lot! I think another commenter referenced the same article I’m half-remembering (as you do) where some professional audio people commented on this issue. They said movies are designed for the theater and nothing else with no intention/interest in fixing it. IIRC (and I probably don’t) this is likely due to directors or studios not wanting to pay for a home version or having a specific vision they would rather not compromise. Even though the effect of not compromising is…well, the posted comic.
Former sound engineer here. Yes, that’s the correct title, but no, that’s not our doing (not mine at least). I want as many people as possible to reasonably be able to enjoy my output, regardless whether they have a 40000$ home cinema, or if they’re on a cheap TV.
I know that some directors (Christopher Nolan) tend to want to produce “best” quality at the expense of those who don’t care. See Tenet as an example.
Hey at least with Nolan movies, it really doesn’t matter what they’re saying
Obligatory:
Brilliant
If you can have sound separated into different channels based on what their purpose is, I don’t see why they can’t just have a software solution that allows you to raise the volume of dialogue separately from everything else.
Like in video games, you can control volume for dialogue, music, sound effects, etc all individually.
I love this idea. I don’t want it balanced or perfect for my system, I literally just want everything that isn’t speech to be quieter, even if the voice is behind us or the explosion is front and center. That’s it.
As much as I would love that, its use would be very limited without widespread adaption of software or hardware support.
My Denon home theater amp has a setting for this. It doesn’t work very well, but there’s a minor improvement when it’s set to medium.
That’s because it has to use some sort of impercise method to identify speech vs everything else, since speech is mixed in with the rest of the audio.
If speech had a dedicated channel it wouldn’t be mixed in with everything else and you wouldn’t need to use any tricks to adjust it independently.
EDIT: need more coffee, I misread the comment talking about a software solution as suggesting just putting speech in a dedicated channel. Whoops. This comment is useless.
God I freaking love Tenet. I haven’t watched it in a few months I’ll watch it tonight.
Watch it in reverse.
Sound engineers are the nicest of people in the audio world ime. Always ready to explain to my dumb ass complex math that makes sound work, and I love them for it.
The people you’re thinking about go by “audiophiles” most commonly and are the coffee people of the tech world: nothing is ever good enough and they’ll sneer at you for not knowing that.
What do you mean, your cables aren’t braided from fine gold?
What do you mean, you don’t have a $1400 wooden volume knob to help suppress harmonics? Coupled with a True DC source with microvolt ripple for your final stages It’s like lifting a veil from the sound stage!
Edit: No, seriously, there are people like that. This company used to sell a $400 wooden knob some 15 years ago. They still sell a lot of stuff like that for the True Audiophile.
http://www.audio-consulting.ch/?Products
(Don’t know how many veils a soundstage can actually have, but apparently, it’s a lot).
And expensive little feet to set your $4000 cables on so they don’t touch the ground.
I remember the wooden knob. It’s not even the most outrageous item that was available.
Audiophile servers and Audiophile Switches are the stupidest.
The digital signal will be exactly the same no matter what, you can’t make it cleaner than either a 1 or a 0.
I should sell a full line of audiophile goods, including door knobs, jackets, and wallets. The key is in the resonant frequency of our products, they will really lift the veil and not hamper the sound waves traveling through the room, but instead enhance them with constructive interference.
Cables can make a difference. If you’re running HDMI 2.1 to get full HDR video and uncompressed HD 5.1 or 7.1 audio, then you should use a certified cable because it’s a lot of information moving across a cable very quickly. I’ve tried cheap Amazon cables before and they fail. They get too hot and the devices lose handshake and shut off or throw errors. But once you have a cable that’s rated and certified for your intended use, it’s not going to get much better.
cables can absolutely make a difference, but it’s still easy to get a quality cable without paying for the extra cost of someone having marketed it as “audiophile” gear. Keep in mind the commenter was talking about switches and servers
There is still some stuff to worry about but that’s if the cables are long. I don’t think you’re going to get problems from the TV to the speaker.
Most digital signals carry extra data for error correction even if there is issues with the electrical signal due to distance and EM interference.
Cable issues like what you’re talking about should only be happening on cables carrying analog signal, and that should be solvable with basic, dirt cheap shielding in the cable itself.
99% of the time, the cause is trying to output a 5.1 signal into a Stereo setup (Like your TV speakers). A 5.1 signal is 5 speakers and 1 subwoofer. The speakers are front left and right, rear left and right and - the important bit - the centre channel. The centre channel tends to be where all of the dialogue comes from, while everything else comes from the other speakers. But what happens if you don’t have 5 speakers? What if you only have 2? You can’t ignore that audio so you’ve got to mush it together somehow and now you’ve got dialogue and explosions coming out of the same speakers with mixed results.
It’s not about not having a professional setup mixed the same as a theatre, it’s usually about a setting somewhere that’s incorrect. If you’re only using your TV’s speakers, there’s a good chance something somewhere is trying to give it a surround sound signal and it’s trying to downmix that to stereo. Usually you can fix it by adjusting a setting somewhere, either the TV itself or whatever app/box is sending the TV the signal as most sources do actually come with a stereo mix.
However, a better way of solving it is getting yourself a soundbar. It doesn’t have to be an expensive one at all, even the cheaper soundbars will sound better than your TV ever will and they’ll at least have a 3.1 signal that’ll separate out the sound effects/music from the dialogue because usually that dialogue goes through the centre channel which you now have. You can also usually adjust the volume of that channel independently.
Note that nobody would suggest that a cheap soundbar is anything close to a “professional setup”. Most audio folk would turn their nose up at the idea of using a soundbar over a full surround system but you know what, they’re pretty “good enough” for most folk and if you care about media consumption, it’s a nice improvement.
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I have that setup
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The theater is also too imbalanced and too loud
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Screw how they do it in the theatre. Watching Dune gave me a migraine for the rest of the day thanks to the sound.
Dune gave me an erection for the rest of the day because of the sound.
Zendaya looking over her shoulder as a woman screams
Tibetan throat gurgling intensifies
Get out and vote, people!
I’m with you
Yea it’s better for media to have a high “dynamic range” (as in the comic). But for most consumers it’s bad. My solution is to use a “compressor”, a audio filter that practically averages loudness. https://www.thewindowsclub.com/compressor-tool-in-vlc
Funny enough shitty laptop speakers are better for watching these kinds of movies.
See also: loudness wars
If you’re not on a computer, most TVs come with a “nighttime” mode which is essentially a compressor and works in the daytime just as well.
i was once present to recording of some cheap radio advertisement, and the last step in the mixing process was that the guy burned the cd and plugged it in into 20 usd cd player to hear what it will sound like to the intended audience.
so not every professional has necessarily be an obnoxious asshole.
Most of the time sound engineers also make a stereo mix, with significantly less dynamic range.
Blame your TV/computer/whatever-screen for going technically a multichannel surround system could be plugged into me at any moment, I will tell the streaming-service/Blu-ray/DVD/media-file to feed me that sound track! Switching to the stereo track makes a big difference, but yeah, for some reason the surround track becomes the default option.
I recall reading something on Reddit or medium about an audio engineer who demanded to talk with the manager because the sound was “wrong”. Apparently the theater had a different speaker setup than she had designed the movie for.
I can’t find the link now though. Is there a name for that? Like baader-meinhoff but in reverse?
Meinhoff-Baader.
Re-recording mixer would be more accurate. Engineer is more a music thing I think. Regardless, designer Mark Mangini knows this is an issue for example due to theater mixes being a priority over a basic stereo mix. This is an issue in action films (I can’t imagine a drama would have this huge an issue, less dynamics) and as long as the mixers have to prioritize the Atmos theater mixes n shit and the studio doesn’t want to pay for a great home stereo mix, the dynamics issue will continue
Subtitles: On
Supposedly most Gen Z now use subtitles and I don’t blame them. With the way movie sound is mixed it’s really hard to hear the dialog. Not everyone has a Dolby-certified sound system in their living room.
Even with a basic surround system that has a separate center channel (and fiddling with the settings for 5.1, Atmos, stereo) we still often have to use subtitles. It’s major failure on the part of movie studio audio engineers.
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And then sometimes when you have subtitles turned on it has digital subtitles that cover up in-video subtitles with something useless like [speaking alien language].
And sometimes that alien language is… Spanish.
[yells in foreign language]
It’s funny when things will translate some sentences and not others.
At the same time though, there’s lots of older movies and TV shows that had bits of foreign language in them and the shows/movies never translated it. I finally get to know what the villains are saying thanks to streaming sites using subtitles.
What you’re looking for is forced subtitles! They’re subtitles that only have text for different languages/overly quiet ones
Funny thing is, that it is only in the original language audio track, if you watch in German (what I not recommend, since I can’t stand the synchros) the speakers are way louder compared to the background noice/action scenes.
Luckily Plex has a feature to fix that on original language tracks as well and reduces loud sound automatically.
Is the feature client or server side? What’s it called?
I need it
If you run on a window system, there is a setting deep in your sound device’s advanced options that will allow you to suppress those loud sounds as well. It seems to cut the dynamic range and makes most media much more tolerable in that respect.
Oh I just learned that this is a feature of the Apple TV player, not plex, plex just uses apple’s player on the Apple TV
what I not recommend
Which I do not recommend.
I think you got what I wanted to say
I’m Gen X and have been using subtitles ever since I had kids. My kids have only ever seen the TV with subtitles on. Just recently I noticed that they watch Youtube with subtitles on. So, not sure if it’s nature or nurture :)
The nice thing about a dedicated center channel is you can focus your volume battles there for some movies.
The best are the Amazon originals with no 2.1 mix where the dialog is center channel only. My daughter loves cartoons with zero dialog.
Turning on the subtitles while children are watching television can double the chances of a child becoming good at reading†. It’s so brilliantly simple and can help children’s literacy so much that we want to shout it from the rooftops!
https://turnonthesubtitles.org/
†Based on an academic study of 2,350 children, 34% became good readers with schooling alone. But when exposed to 30 minutes a week of subtitled film songs, that proportion more than doubled to 70%. There are lots of studies about the benefits of subtitles. This is just one! Check out our research page to find out more.
Why does the child becoming good at reading come with a check(†)?
Because I copied the formatting exactly and the † denotes the foot note.
So I copied the claim, and the source.
Wow, that’s amazing! Are schools adding 30 minutes of subtitled entertainment to their curriculum? If not, why the hell not?
I’m Dutch. I put subtitles on everything, even if the show is in my native language.
If I wanted to read I wouldn’t be watching TV.
I hate this stupid sentiment, as if video never has letters on it. If a sentence at a time is so hard for you to read, maybe that’s a you problem.
(If you have a genuine disability, I’m sorry, but otherwise, stop being lazy)
Sorry for not living up to your expectations, but I don’t like being distracted from the visuals by shit at the bottom of the screen.
Here’s the fun thing: you don’t have to be distracted!
Most TVs now allow you to adjust the subs however you want them to look, so they can be as huge and intrusive or tiny and ignorable as you want.
Even with default settings, I find that I visually tune them out pretty damn quick, but then I have them there for when I miss something due to poor audio balance.
You do you though.
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At least you can tell people you like to read. Unfortunately, in my experience, there isn’t always an option for stereo. I prefer stereo over surround sound. Never understood why this would be so hard to provide. So I read my favorite shows, too.
Home releases and streaming need a reduced dynamic range mix as a selectable audio channel. TV compressors almost never cut it.
I recently watched a show on a streaming service with several audio options for boosted dialogue. This should be standard for all releases.
What’s worse is TVs that lie and say they have 5.1 surround and force the streaming to use it. Shout out to Netflix and Prime for letting you manually select Stereo though.
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If anyone uses Kodi, there’s an audio setting to downmix the center channel that helps with this. This comic is hilarious btw.
Why though? You want the center channel up and the mains and surrounds down. Most of the dialogue comes through the center.
Down-mix does not mean reduce volume, it means output for a smaller number of channels than originally intended. The idea is to create your own mix that prioritizes the centre channel more than the standard mix does.
Oh, interesting. Thanks for the explanation. I’m going to check if Stremio has that. Is there a way that I could configure it on my amp? That might be a more reliable approach. The amp has a dialogue mode, but it’s not great. Medium setting on that mode produces slightly more intelligible speech. Does downmixing the center have any negative consequences, like not getting an actual surround sound experience? I love the enhanced experience from sounds coming from behind me, the sides, etc.
Yeah, it’s more for someone with a two channel system. If you have a centre channel, just turn it up :)
Audio Mixers: “Everyone has Dolby Atmos these days. You’d have to be some kind of broke-ass to only use your TV speakers or soundbar!”
I really need audio mixers to understand most people are broke as fuck.
A lot of content is (unfortunately) mastered for a very quiet room.
This means they expect a low noise floor (say, 35dB). Which means for 45dB of dynamic range, you have a max volume of 80dB.If your listening room isn’t perfect (no deadening, cars passing in the street, someone vacuuming), your noise floor could be 45dB to start with.
And if you go for the same range, suddenly you’re up in the 90s. Or, as this comic shows, you crank the volume in the low sections to hear things over the noise floor, but you don’t want it that loud at peak.There are probably already 50 comments about dynamic normalisation in the comments. And it’s the right answer for generic environments.
That, and boosting the centre channel (either with a real channel, or virtually). As the centre channel tends to have a higher percentage of use for dialogue.It’s gotten to the point that I only feel safe watching movies with headphones (on my phone/computer). I can always keep a finger on the volume button, and at least with headphones I won’t upset my roommates with the volume lol
5.1 with no center speaker
Subtitles are great for this, but also investing in actual speakers instead of a soundbar or the tv’s speakers.
If the movie has multiple sound channels beyond left/right, then dialogue is usually one of those channels and can come from a specific speaker, making it less muddied than when mixed with other sounds.
If the movie doesn’t have multiple channels, the speakers might still help a little just by being better quality.
There are a ton of reasons why audio mixes for movies are fraught with quality issues during home viewing, and “people have crappy equipment” is the weakest and lest-compelling of them.
This is a great article, but given your context, I chuckled when I stumbled across this line: “There is yet another important variable in this sprawling equation, and it might be the most important one of all: the home theater experience.”
An interesting read. Yeah, it’s complicated.
I think sound has been a bit under-appreciated compared to visual effects/quality in recent years.
It is definitely under-appreciated. A lot of people don’t care, or don’t know what they’re missing. Some people get intimidated with the technical aspects of the setup. So even people that want a better experience are shy about it. Then they see lies on the sound bar box and think that’s a great solution. Sound bars are better than TV speakers, but they’re not a replacement for a real surround sound system.
What’s wrong with sound bars? I don’t want my whole living room redesigned with speakers everywhere, I just want stereo and each frequency to sound decent.
No amount of software will make speakers in front of you sound like they’re behind you. Plus there’s not really much distance between the speakers in the sound bar, so even the main speakers are very center focused. Lastly, they’re small speakers. You can create a lot of sound with small speakers, but it will never fill a room like large speakers, they just can’t push enough air. I can hear my big floor standing speakers at reasonable volume throughout the house. I’d have to turn smaller speakers up to painful levels to hear them in the other room.
HRTF is designed to replicate the way that humans perceive where a sound is coming from.
It’s not perfect, and it’s not going to create an identical experience to a full-range speaker in every corner, but it does a remarkably good job tricking our brains when done right.I do not understand where this comes from. I do not want sound behind me. Thats also why I stare at a flat screen in front of me. To each their own, but there should be the option to have a decent nighttime stereo mix.
Have you never enjoyed a movie at the movie theater? They use top-tier surround sound systems and it’s amazing! You can recreate a lot of that at home with a 5.1 surround sound system. The more channels you add, the more immersive the experience. Like in the beginning of Saving Private Ryan, the sounds are coming from all around. You can feel the bass from the boats churning below you, hear the bullets go whizzing past you and hit the boats & people behind you, hear the guns firing in front of you and people screaming to advance. It completely changes the viewing experience. Idk why you wouldn’t want that if you’re into movies. But you can’t really re-create that with a sound bar. Sure, it’s usually better than the TV speakers, but it’s not true surround sound.
I know and that’s all good and everything. If I want that experience I would go to the movies. At home though I prefer the action to be in a confined space; why take away the option? You can still opt for a surround experience if that is more your thing. Just let the customer pick.
You can pick. I haven’t seen a single modern system without a sound mode option.
I’m intrigued by this - do you mean that the smaller speakers sound unpleasant at the same volume you need to hear it in the other room, or that a literal higher volume is required? The latter goes against how I thought sound worked!
If you have the system calibrated for reference levels then it will be the same volume, but it’ll require more power to produce it. Yes, it will sound unpleasant, and feel less “full”. Unless they’re very good small speakers it will sound harsher and can cause more listening strain.
but also investing in actual speakers instead of a soundbar or the tv’s speakers.
NO God Dammit, just NO. It’s completely unreasonable to expect a full multi speaker 5.1 or better surround system on every fucking TV so people can comfortably hear the dialogue! There’s absolutely no reason that a quality soundbar can’t provide a decent audio experience. NONE.
You’re really passionate about this, so change your audio setting to stereo and you’ll notice an improvement. A 5.1 system isn’t required, but it dramatically improves your viewing experience. You can get an affordable used system in a lot of places. I suggest checking the thrift store. In some areas the thrift stores are just a garbage dump, but if you check the nice areas periodically then you can build a great 5.1 system over time for just a couple hundred dollars or less. I’ve seen Polk audio subs for $10, Klipsch floor standing speakers for $20, Yamaha home theater amps for $10, and a bunch of other great deals. Half my system is from the thrift store, but it was all from there until not too long ago.
The quality of your speakers has a big effect on the audio, sure, but it should not have an effect on speech intelligibility. I could put my phone on speaker and lean it against the TV screen and be perfectly able to hear better mixed videos.
Subtitles gang represent.
“His favorite movie? is books!”
I’m ok with it, I’ve got a room in my own house with a surround sound system. I recognize not everyone has this. A mix with a compressed dynamic range should always be an option.
It more about if you have thin walls and nearby neighbours or family members who don’t appreciate the noise
Yeah, I get irrationally uncomfortable if anyone can hear what I’m listening to
The best solution I’ve found for this is to play content at about 10% TV volume and have Kodi apply a ~16dB preamp to the audio. Works perfectly, everything just sounds the right volume, no distortion or clipping, no suddenly getting quiet before action scenes.
Or your TV/sound system adjusts the volume automatically but spoils when dramatic things are about to happen by suddenly getting quiet.
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It helps but doesn’t fix it, not even on my Roku Soundbars.
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