I’ve been trying to find a good Marxist instance, but Lemmygrad and Hexbear are widely hated. Why is that? Are there any good leftist instances?
I can’t speak about lemmygrad since the instances I’m on all defederate from it, but Hexbear users have a reputation for being generally aggressive, grating, and immature. It’s like that kid in class who keeps interrupting the teacher because they think they’re funny and clever. e.g., some were screaming at me that I can’t be an anarchist and I know nothing about anarchism since I’m married, replying with third-grade tier memes for some confusing reason
Exactly this. They are not leftist, they are just a bunch of idiot trolls who use extreme left views as a means of pissing people off. Their views, according to their posts, are cartoonishly extremist. And that’s why people don’t like them.
I fully agree. The problem is when we point out that they’re not leftist, they assume it’s because we conflate leftism with liberalism, whereas this is not the case at all. I think they’re not leftist because their antisocial/anti-human beliefs are antithetical to the concept of community and only serve to derail any chance we have to work together to create a new system. I can’t imagine that anyone who legitimately seeks the goal of a stateless, classless society would behave as they do.
Thought I should add it was them informing me that certain countries banning same-sex marriage while endorsing heterosexual marriage is just fine, actually. They espoused an objectively homophobic belief, and when I referenced my own marriage, they switched to calling me ignorant about anarchism. There are anarchist texts exploring the issue and some of the potential problems with traditions like marriage, but it’s not dogma. Nor do I view my own relationship as hierarchical.
TL;DR They were being objectively homophobic.
This has the energy of a white gay man in a marriage pointing at a trans polycule and calling them homophobic because they said he had a bad take about how bourgeois privileges are more important than positive rights for queer homeless people.
White gay men wielding their gayness as a cudgel against people who are queerer and more marginalized then them sure is a gross thing to see.
Your comment is a perfect example of the pants-shittingly off-topic LGBTphobic nonsense I was receiving in the other thread, so thanks for proving my point.
You … you do realize that trans people and other “queerer” people than me engage in same-sex marriage too, right? And that it’s objectively homophobic for a policy to exist forbidding same-sex marriage while permitting heterosexual marriage? And that not all trans people are poly? I know people that fit all of the above, and every one of them deserves validation, and it would be unfathomably LGBTphobic for me to arbitrarily determine which ones are “queer enough” to be part of the community. You don’t see the problem with this line of thinking, with your entire statement? Of course you do, you’re just being deliberately cruel for your own amusement.
There it is, folks. Exhibit A
Edit: That user is a moderator on !worldnews@lemmy.ml
I’m unsubscribing immediately! And I blocked and reported that user, too.
My love is for all the LGBT+ community, and for the straight cis community as well. I just want equity. For anyone who had to read that homophobic comment above, just know that I do care, and I’m here for you.
And that it’s objectively homophobic for a policy to exist forbidding same-sex marriage while permitting heterosexual marriage?
Yes!
Do you acknowledge that some countries like the US which allow gay marriage materially harm lgbt people more than some countries that have banned gay marriage? Or is it only homophobic when it impacts your middle class ass?
Do you acknowledge that many socialist countries are progressive and moving toward more rights, and just starting from a worse starting point because of violently enforced colonial attitudes from countries that now claim to be progressive?
Do you acknowledge that Cuba, a socialist nation that you’d accuse of being tankie, is the place where lgbt people have the most material rights?
Do you acknowledge that communists have led every single queer liberation movement that has forced concessions from ruling governments? Or do you want to whitewash the communists out of stonewall?
You … you do realize that trans people and other “queerer” people than me engage in same-sex marriage too, right?
Yes, I’m one of them. And I’d happily give up my right to be married if it would erase queer homelessness, and erase conversion therapy camps, and erase the continual murder of black and indigenous trans women in our society.
Lemmygrad does have its heated gamer moments but overall they’re waaaaay better than hexbear when it comes to post quality.
some were screaming at me that I can’t be an anarchist and I know nothing about anarchism since I’m married, replying with third-grade tier memes for some confusing reason
Sounds like Hexbear to me
Do you want to hear the punchline? I caught a temp ban for expressing my plan to block their instance as soon as that is made possible for users. I will admit I was a bit harsh in that I said I wanted them to be “effectively silenced,” but this was extremely mild compared to their comments to me.
Mh, comments are being deleted. I hate this fucking drama.
Of course they’re deleting comments. Their opinions are indefensible so they have to remove any form of scrutiny.
Lemmygrad and Hexbear aren’t “leftist” in the confused sense that Americans usually mean “leftist.” They’re actually leftist in the original sense, meaning that they want to abolish private ownership of the means of production. To the extent they’re “widely hated,” it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives.
More often than not, when Americans say leftist they really mean left-liberalism a la Bernie Sanders, which is really center-left at most, and not actually leftist in the original sense, a sense which Americans have forgotten thanks to two Red Scares and the first Cold War.
True, but leninists are not leftist in any significant sense either. They are more authoritarian/ totalitarian than they are left or right.
Removed by mod
Nah, I don’t think I will compromise. Hitler was a totalitarian dictator, and Lenin horseshoed himself all the way around to become the same. None of their American contemporaries then or since are comparable. Waving your hand and saying everything is authoritarian ignores how many people they both killed to maintain that authority, the vast majority being working class. Leninists are not leftists, they are just bloodthirsty pigs.
That’s not the part people have an issue with, the part where their users deny genocides, call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis, end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks, that’s what people have an issue with.
Holy shit you got them to brigade your comment. They might as well be bots, I think Chat GPT’s “intelligence” outpaces them.
As is tradition! What’s funny is that they’re supposed to be defederated from my instance so I don’t know why they even see my comments… Their admin even called my instance “sh.itsfullof.nazis” in their defederation message because they were angry that they were confronted to people who disagreed with them when they brigaded our administration communities…
They have a community dedicated to organizing brigades so it’s no surprise that they are brigading their comment
The rules in the side bar are very telling
Of course the last time I mentioned it’s existence with one of my alts I got a 2 week sitewide-ban so this comment probably won’t last long
Edit: Spleling
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves
anyone complaining about “reverse racism” or “anti white racism” is a complete joke. like boo fucking hoo, someone called you a cracker on the internet, get over it.
Racism has a definition that’s fairly easy to understand and yes people of all colors can be victims and even people of the same skin colour can be racists against one another because racism isn’t necessarily about the color of your skin, it can be about your ethnicity.
Racism:
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.Ethnicity:
the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.If you had taken a crowd of anonymous Germans all dressed the same in 1935, how would you have told who was a Jew and who wasn’t? You wouldn’t have been able to because they were all just white people.
What do you call it when 100 years ago in a first world white country the population that speaks one official language has an infant mortality rate comparable to that of colonial Africa while the population that speaks the other official language and lives in the same cities has an infant mortality rate comparable to any other first world nation?
Was the Rwanda genocide not racism because it was two groups with the same skin colour? What about what happened in Yugoslavia?
My white friend who went to China to study had to sit through multiple explanations by many Chinese student of the levels of intelligence being affected by skin colour and ethnicity and guess what, whites weren’t at the top! “All white people are dumber than Indians who are dumber than Koreans who are dumber than Chinese.” Are you telling me that isn’t racism against white people (and anyone that isn’t Chinese)? Because I sure would hope someone would call me a racist if I was saying the same thing about people of another skin colour or ethnicity!
Removed by mod
So you’re saying that what the Jews were victim of during WW2 wasn’t racism? Because they certainly were white!
How about the Irish? The deportation of Acadians? French Canadians seeing their language becoming illegal to teach in Manitoba? The Yugoslav wars?
By your logic it’s also impossible to be racist towards Chinese and Japanese because man, let me tell you, they can be racist as fuck towards everyone else and they were the ones in power on their side of the world for centuries!
Racism has a definition and it’s a bad thing no matter who the victim is.
Removed by mod
It’s funny how it’s always the same whenever you’re confronted to arguments. You just insult the other party and leave the scene like you were a hero.
Also very funny you should call me a cracker when you don’t know what’s my origin, you just assume I’m white because you would be unable to accept that someone not white could realize that racism goes all ways.
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
That isn’t what they are talking about, hopefully. But if it is, I agree, a hearty “lol” is in order.
they replied confirming to me that what they were complaining about was in fact racism against white people, given that it seems to be a pretty common bit on lemmygrad to call people crackers and compare them to that kid who went onto fox news to complain about his face being photoshopped onto a picture of a ritz cracker by left wing students at his university that seems to be what they were complaining about
Bad interpretation is bad
The “Uyghur genocide” is bullshit Atlanticist propaganda, and English-language Wikipedia is basically NATOpedia in its slant on the topic, so yes we will deny it. It’s a product of the new Cold War propaganda campaign against China.
Here are some properties of any conspiracy theory worth it’s name:
- Closed Ideological Systems: They provide an all-encompassing explanation for various events or states, with everything fitting into their worldview.
- Immunity to Facts: Any contrary evidence is dismissed as false or considered part of the conspiracy.
- Enemy Construction: They tend to draw a clear line between “us” (those who “know the truth”) and “them” (the supposed conspirators).
- Adaptability: Conspiracy narratives can change and incorporate new “evidence” or events to maintain their credibility.
It matches for QAnon and the MAGA crowd as well as the lemmygrad crowd.
I get why people would believe it like a decade ago when the facts were still kind of up in the air, but now even west media is like “yeaaah we looked into it and all of it is complete and utter bullshit” and yet you still have people confidently going on like it’s still a thing.
Eventually you have to come to the grips with the fact that the only reason you believe in the Uyghur genocide is because you’re racist.
Extremely accurate
I literally netted a 2 week sitewide-ban on one of my alts in this thread for a softer worded take than this
Don’t know how I managed to escape consequences so far 😂
That’s a liberal with no framework. No one denies genocides (pro-tip just because the western media says it’s a genocide doesn’t make it a genocide.) Being so anti-racist you are the real racist is the Liberal Democratic party who elected a hard-core segregationist as president, not a Marxist Leninist. No one except people like you give a fuck about personal attacks. lol.
Removed by mod
Thanks for providing an example of what I was talking about :)
Any politically focused space on the Internet, left or right, is a cesspool of toxic lies and hatred of anyone outside their sphere
British. Immediately discarded.
That’s what we call racism
im british and i give them the g-word pass (gammon) to refer to british people in a derogatory way
Political views aside, the way they promote their political views is unappealing.
Look through any of their popular threads. Everyone piles on any comment which doesn’t align perfectly with the agreed perspective.
Everyone piles on any comment which doesn’t align perfectly with the agreed perspective.
Sounds like every popular community on Lemmy. The only difference is the “agreed perspective”.
Not really.
In most communities you can at least entice some robust discussion, hexbear just seems sp aggressively intolerant of alternative views.
Removed by mod
Love how at the very idea of somebody disagreeing with you, you start throwing up all sorts of topics you know are hot buttons just so you can preemptively slam anyone who has a different perspective than you. Rather than taking a second to teach a single thing about the topics you claim to care about you just flash them like political merit badges to prove you’re in the in-group, and anybody who doesn’t know exactly what one of those things are, or what you think is the truth about it, is worth dismissing out of hand. It’s just a secret handshake that if people don’t parrot it back to you they’re not worth debating. You were never here for healthy debate though. You don’t care about convincing anyone or advancing your causes or ideas. You’re here for the badges.
Removed by mod
See, this is why people have problems with ML and hexbears. How will you ever bring the revolution when you can’t stop screeching? Nobody wants that. Nobody wants to be around it. You’ll be a revolution of one because nobody can take being around such an abrasive asshole long enough to even listen to their points, much less realize they might be right.
Imagine somebody walking down the street. They see a poster on the wall of the store they pass. It’s a Starbucks. “Looks tasty, I’m cold” they say. Suddenly, you’re there, shrieking about labor rights and fair trade. You are without a doubt correct, but you’ve scared the person and now they’re annoyed. One of those drones inside with the green hats comes out and sees the situation. They ask the customer to come inside where they’re safe from you, and now they’re buying overpriced drinks from exploited workers produced by exploited farmers etc.
All because instead of talking to someone like a human, you had to be edgy and witty. You treat real humans the way tv characters talk to each other. On TV the wittiest oneo-liner wins. In real life you have to show a little human compassion, even if you’re faking it or else you alienate who you’re talking to and are left in an echo chamber, alone, or in the case of our imagined scenario the employees may call security or police (agents of oppression, and they’ll probably buy coffee too) on a person harassing potential customers.
Removed by mod
His tendency to dismiss and belittle differing opinions aligns with the behavior of making jokes at someone else’s expense, a red flag of his intention to demean rather than engage. This approach not only stifles productive discourse but also exposes their inability to appreciate the nuances in complex issues. The mark of a first-rate intelligence is holding two opposed ideas while still functioning, *a capacity *TheAnоnymоuseJоker seems to lack. He demonstrates an inability to see a world where an idea can be both right and wrong, as seen in his black-and-white arguments.
You’ll be a revolution of one
Ironically, and I quote him:
powerless against one many army
Furthermore, the consistent denial and projection of his biases onto others underscore his low self-esteem and desire to control and influence the narrative. This manipulation, characterized by deceiving and creating misleading narratives, aligns with the observation that the most argumentative people rarely persuade anyone. Persuasion is an art that requires observation, listening, and inquiry, not blunt force.
That’s a very mature response
Removed by mod
It’s also crucial to consider the source of advice or criticism. TheAnоnymоuseJоker’s attacks are reminiscent of those who criticize yet have never built anything themselves. Their actions seems more about garnering attention than offering constructive criticism. One cannot be offended by someone they do not respect. It’s important to take advice from those you respect and who contribute positively, not from those who seek to destroy. TheAnоnymоuseJоker should address the need for maturity and constructive engagement rather than dismissive or sarcastic remarks.
@JungleJim@sh.itjust.works your assessment of @TheAnоnymоuseJоker@lemmy.ml is spot-on, highlighting behaviors indicative of a fragile ego and a need for superiority. This individual frequently deflects from central topics, especially when their views are challenged, revealing an inability to handle opposing viewpoints. It’s normal to have differences in opinion, but for TheAnоnymоuseJоker this seems to be an act of war, a mindset that is immature and counterproductive for meaningful online interactions.
Psychologically, it’s a common fallacy for some individuals to oversimplify complex social interactions, reducing them to mere players in the game of their subjective perception. This viewpoint often ignores the nuanced realities of human behavior and interaction.
Recognizing these behaviors — deflecting, causing dismay, dismissing, denying, deceiving — is essential in understanding the underlying motivations and responding appropriately to maintain the integrity of the discussion.
Removed by mod
Analyzing me psychologically? That’s an interesting deflection, TheAnonymouseJoker. You claim I’m engaging in deflective and ignorant behavior, yet here you are, quickly labeling and dismissing my points without addressing their substance. It’s quite telling that instead of engaging with the critique, you resort to calling out my account’s age and my supposed affiliations. This tactic of yours, focusing on personal attacks rather than the discussion at hand, really highlights the earlier point about your tendency to dismiss and belittle differing opinions. It seems like any perspective that doesn’t align with yours is automatically considered ‘contextless liberal rants and libel.’ Isn’t that, in itself, a form of intellectual compromise? Let’s stick to the actual content of the discussion, shall we?
Ukraine good Russia bad?
Sorry I don’t side with imperialism.
Ukraine wants to not be invaded by it’s neighbor, and Russia did so to conquer it in direct contradiction to a treaty it signed when Ukraine gave it’s nukes to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. On multiple occasions.
Removed by mod
Did Russia not invade Ukraine’s sovereign territory?
That’s a pretty big rock you’ve been living under to miss that.
Removed by mod
Do you actually believe these things or do you just say them to try to get a rise out of people because I’ve never been able to work that one
Removed by mod
It’s evident that the your not interested in a genuine exchange of ideas or healthy debate. By rapidly switching topics and using them as shields rather than points of discussion, you’re clearly employing tactics like deflecting and deceiving. These types of methods serve to derail the conversation and assert dominance rather than contribute meaningfully.
Classic case of using hot-button issues not to educate or enlighten but to create an ‘in-group’ and outcast those who question or differ. This approach isn’t just unproductive; it’s an attempt to manipulate the discourse for personal gratification rather than collective understanding.
Recognizing these tactics is the first step in not falling victim to them and maintaining the integrity of the discussion
Removed by mod
That’s basically every political sub I’ve come across browsing in my instance
It’s a question of degree.
They are hardline Marxist-Leninists, something that is very rare in the western world even amongst those who identify as leftist or socialist. If their views make you uncomfortable, then you’re not a ML, which is okay.
Left-wing politics is a very broad spectrum, and a lot of Lemmy users lean towards the more moderate end which brings them into conflict with the more radical communities that are Lemmygrad and Hexbear.
That’s all there is to it.
deleted by creator
And they’re not artificially suppressed like they are on other social media platforms.
*depending on what instance you’re on
They are defederated from a lot of instances, from their own side or the other’s (my instance is defederated from LG and HB defederated itself from my instance)
That’s all there is to it.
That’s it? Nothing about their notoriety for posting pictures of pigs pooping on their balls as part of their lively defense of MLism?
Liberals hate communists more than they hate fascists
Sorry for my ignorance, but I think liberal means something else in my part of the world. Can you please tell me what’s your definition?
Edit: As I thought - you guys mean Neoliberalism. Even in the links below it’s mentioned that there was a split in terms. Language matters! Liberalism - a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights and civil liberties (the opposite in the political spectrum from authoritarianism).
they’re not using liberal in the american sense of liberal meaning gay blue haired woman with pronouns and vegan lattes that conservatives get mad at (in general theres a lot of queer vegan women with pronouns and colourful hair on hexbear); they’re defining liberal in the marxist sense in that its people who support capitalism but arent currently fascists, so this includes conservatives, neoliberals, social democrats, and all sorts in it. Their comment seems to be applying more specifically to the ideologically committed liberals as opposed to mostly apolitical people who just say, “oh yeah i guess i;ll vote democrat this time” once every 4 years and have that be the extent of their politcal consciousness
It’s nonsense statements like this that should provide the answer to OP’s question. When push came to shove in WW2, liberalism in the US, UK, and elsewhere sided with communism against fascism.
Did they now?
Lemmygrad and Hexbear are cool. IDK why you wouldn’t like them if you’re a leftist.
Hexbear in particular has been annoying in the past with nonsense comments from users there, and so many unhelpful replies that are just a tiny animated image and nothing else. I’m not even sure they actually are leftist as much as just trolls a lot of times, so I’ve blocked the instance in general so that serious leftist conversations aren’t being drowned out by that nonsense.
If it looks like someone from hexbear (such as yourself here) is making a real contribution then I’ll reveal that comment and engage. It’s a shame there are so many goofballs on that instance, apparently. Maybe their moderation has improved though?
I think there was a culture shock when federation first hit. We had a ton of ‘engagement’ from people who were using ableist, racist, and transphobic slurs, which brought out strong reactions from our community because we believe its important to shut that stuff down on solidarity with our comrades. And as things got heated I think our willingness to believe people wanted good faith debate eroded.
We do love a good dunking though, and I think overall the community has a lower threshold for going full pig poop balls on people than I would prefer.
Valid criticisms tbh (I even could say the same as a day 0 account lol)
Moderation isn’t going to “improve” because they generally are fine with everyone being goofballs, so I wouldn’t expect that.
Some people have the cascade of shitposting and useless emojis coming with their crappy views, but I don’t think our instance is great at propaganda or ROE, which is unfortunate. Would love to see what we could do with a little discipline.
Also the emojis on every other instance and all mobile apps look more obnoxious because they don’t downscale to their intended resolution.
so many unhelpful replies that are just a tiny animated image and nothing else
Here on kbin I don’t even see that, just text links with names like “pig poop balls”.
Not to mention that before federating, hexbear always had a soft aura of antisemitism floating around it. They’ve cleared house of it since but I remember wondering why they were so disproportionally vitriolic about Trotsky until I learned he was Jewish, then it all started to click.
Honestly I wouldn’t even be remotely surprised if I found out in a couple decades that website was run as controlled opposition. Feels like everything there is designed to either placate or turn people away from communism rather than push them towards understanding it. Compare it to Lemmygrad where they’ll reach a hand out to help reactionaries be less reactionary but on hexbear they just post a picture of a pig shitting on its balls and hurl harassing comments their way as if that’s somehow going to make them any less anticommunist. (and as a fine bonus, all those comments boosts their reactionary bullshit to the top of the federation for everyone to see)
Opposing a settler colonial, apartheid State, which has been ethnically cleansing for three generations and is committing genocide as we speak, is not a “soft aura of antisemitism”.
Obviously not, i’m talking about the people there who were using the leftist environment to shield their actual antisemitism. That shit’s been since wiped off the platform but that wasn’t the case back when I was there.
You know the kind. The ones who would call them “Jews” rather than “Zionists” where if it was posted on reddit nobody would have trouble seeing the antisemitism for what it was but because it was hexbear it obfuscated their actual intentions. Outright antisemitism would get punished pretty hard which is why it’s a soft aura, since it just kinda hung around in the background seeing how much it could get away with. The mods/admins tendency to just ban people who went against the grain resulted in that shit being passively protected for years until the federation forced them to be at least somewhat accountable where blatantly silencing criticism wasn’t going to fly anymore.
Oh, thanks. I’m glad I got to the party late then!
Yeah, you guys get the cool hexbear.
How did you manage to block the instance individually? I thought that feature wasn’t released yet…?
I’m using Connect which has the feature to block instances. It shows comments from all users on a blocked instance collapsed behind a spoiler of sorts that can be clicked to reveal if desired.
I’m a leftist that doesn’t like hanging with racists and totalitarians, that’s why I don’t like them.
Michael Parenti: Left anti-communism: The Unkindest Cut
You’re on itjustworks, you’re not a leftist, you’re a social fascist.
You realise that the instance has open registration that doesn’t require a specific political allegiance? I’m on it because it’s local, I would have chosen any other local instance if it wasn’t this one.
Your gaslighting tactics aren’t going to work here.
You need to learn what gaslighting means before using the word.
Lemmygrad isn’t “hated” by most of the wider lemmyverse. There’s just a loud and obnoxious minority of people that will rail and rant about lemmygrad. They loudly rant about lemmygrad because they aren’t used to seeing their worldview get challenged and by its very nature as a radical leftist community, lemmygrad is a challenge to the typical background liberal perspective.
It’s no surprise we all end up seeing a lot of threads about “those mean tankies at lemmygrad” (and hexbear too) made by people who can’t take their worldview getting questioned, or even shown to be flawed, or just not standing up to their own scrutiny, and who get mad when that happens. There are also of course people with ideological reasons to demonize leftwing politics and will spread shit for that reason alone. But overall, I don’t think most people care enough except to think “oh yeah that’s that instance with those radical lefties, they’re weird but they do make some great memes sometimes.”
There’s a difference between challenging other people’s opinions and calling them fascists or Nazis just because they’re not at the extreme left.
Even worse, in this very thread I’ve been called a fascist for the sole reason that my instance is sh.itjust.works, one of the bigger instances and one where your political opinion isn’t a criteria to subscribe (especially not when I subscribed, they didn’t even ask for an email!)
Yeah, I only joined shitjust works because that’s where the cdda Lemmy is and that’s the first thing I used it for, didn’t even know people think it’s a political instance. Though I guess with the hexbears and lemmygrads everything’s political somehow. That’s why I generally avoid dealing with them anyway.
I’m pretty left/lean socialist. The tankies that annoy me from those instances are pro authoritarian communists who say shit like “Stalin did nothing wrong” with no irony whatsoever. It’s not really about bickering over ideological purity past a certain point, some of that shit makes a good case for the horseshoe theory
There are people who called the main lemmy.ml instance a community of tankies, so I’d take a lot of these claims with a grain of salt.
Hahahahahaha
deleted by creator
They’re both good instances. People have been heavily propagandized to hate communists. You could make the kindest most welcoming space on the internet and if you put the label “communist” on it, it will be hated.
deleted by creator
Lemmygrad I can’t comment on. As far as I can tell they basically just talk politics and I’m not interested in microwaving my brain by obsessing about politics online. Haven’t seen them out in any of the threads I’ve been on.
Hexbear I’ve enjoyed honestly. They’ve got nice hobby communities and it’s all I’m here for. Quality of discussion is usually pretty good. My take on people hating Hexbear is people have made their personality getting mad about politics and Hexbear don’t share their views. People screaming “tankie!” just seemed deranged to me, literally who cares what a handful of nerds in the US think of China. Neither of you have any influence on what China does at all.
The only good take on China
Removed by mod
tankie
Removed by mod
samee
Yes, it has nothing to do with their inability to follow other instances’ rules and constant need to “dunk” on “shit libs” mostly by posting the same image of a pig pooping on itself. /S
Such discourse. Much Praxis. So brave.
If this is your vibe normally I wouldn’t want to engage and would just post a troll image as well, it’s rancid.
Lemmygrad is filled with the American patriot version of communists. You will excuses for the Uighur genocide and acts of repression against ethnic minorities for the good of the nation as a whole. You also get into weird cases of trying to redefine words because the words don’t match their narrative. For instance, I was in one discussion trying to argue that China was a democracy because the government worked for the people, even if there was never any official method of communicating the public will.
Hexbear seems more geared towards being angry and bitter at liberals for not doing what they see as the right thing. There isn’t any discussion on political theory, talk of political organization outside of violent revolution is frowned on, and the focus seems geared on one small part of the political spectrum while ignoring other parts entirely.
If anything, solarpunk may be the healthier leftist sub because it is geared in part towards solutions instead of focusing on problems.
You will excuses for the Uighur genocide
Nobody other than one single man claims there is a Uyghur genocide
even if there was never any official method of communicating the public will.
What do you mean by this? What kinds of methods do you find acceptable?
There isn’t any discussion on political theory
There is absolutely talk of political theory on hexbear. Right now currently there’s a bell hooks reading group pinned to our front page. I’ve learned a surprising amount from my fellow hexbear nerds. People drop reading recommendations constantly and if you make a thread with questions from something you’re reading, you’ll get engagement and answers. It’s pretty cool.
the focus seems geared on one small part of the political spectrum while ignoring other parts entirely.
Yes, we’re communists. We aren’t going to pretend liberals are worth engaging with politically. That being said, we are a leftist unity instance, so anarchists, MLs, maoists, what have you are all welcome. As long as you’re an actual leftist and not some “just vooooote” liberal, you’ll probably enjoy hexbear.
What do you mean by this? What kinds of methods do you find acceptable?
Some form of vote. And this isn’t an argument on which system is better or not, just a definition of democracy compared to other forms of government.
There is absolutely talk of political theory on hexbear.
It is very little and it doesn’t get upvoteed much. If you are going to see posts from all, it isn’t there.
We aren’t going to pretend liberals are worth engaging with politically.
But Hexbear talks about liberals a lot, far more than any other political group. It comes across as a communal hate time for one group. It feels strange to focus on one half of the political systems typically represented in democracies and not the other.
not some “just vooooote” liberal
I touched on this in my reply. There is little in terms of discussion for organization or action. It doesn’t come across as a group wanting to make change, but complain. And the hostility to voting feels like it comes from not wanting to do anything in the political sphere that will actually affect change.
Ok, so, first of all, people vote in China. Like, they do. They have elections there. If you’re defining democracy as “a system in which people vote”, then by that definition China is a democracy. (Full disclosure, I don’t think that’s a great definition and I don’t think China is a “liberal democracy” like the US is, but at this point, we’re getting hugely into the weeds of different political systems and I don’t think now is exactly the time for that.)
Sure, the hexbear posts that make it to the top of the “all” feed aren’t going to be the ones where we’re talking theory, they’re going to be the ones where we’re dunking on people for shitty political opinions. Fair enough. That’s true. It doesn’t mean that theory posts don’t exist, just that they aren’t as contentious as dunking posts. That’s an indictment of the internet and social media, not of hexbear specifically.
Hexbear does talk about liberals a lot, because they are the political group in power in the west. It’s probably worth pointing out here that (american) republicans are, in fact, also liberals. So when we say “libs suck”, we are also talking about the american republican party. Republicans are more open than the democrats about their genocidal tendencies, but fundamentally, republicans and democrats believe the same things and act in the same ways. They all think capitalism is cool and good, they just have slightly different feelings about which tactics to employ to keep capitalism as the dominant economic system. So it’s not that we ignore republicans, it’s just that it can sometimes look that way to people who think “liberal” means “democrat”. It never has historically, but because political education in the US is so fucking garbage, a lot of people think “liberals” and “democrats” are synonyms.
And your last point is just wrong. We know that voting is never going to bring about real change, but that doesn’t mean we only want to complain. The usual advice is to get organized. It’s to find a local group that is on the ground helping people and get involved. Start working to build non-governmental power in your local area. Make connections, talk to people, help people, so that when world events are exploitable, we communists are ready to exploit them. It’s fucking hard, especially in the US where our government has spent years and years trying (and mostly succeeding) to make “communism” a dirty word, but just because something is hard doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing. The idea that voting is something that will affect change is laughably incorrect. We could get into it, but let me just point out that the electoral college exists and that in my lifetime there have been not one, but two presidents who have been elected to office even though they lost the popular vote. Does that sound like a system in which the mass of voting people can bring about real change?
“Some form of vote”???
They…do vote??? There are elections??? Where are you pulling this??
vibes
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
Some form of vote. And this isn’t an argument on which system is better or not, just a definition of democracy compared to other forms of government.
People do vote in China. You know that, right? Xi is not elected directly by popular vote but is essentially voted on by politicians who were voted in, something closer to a parliamentary style organization rather than the US system. If Xi was unpopular, the people could vote out the people supporting him in favor of challengers who support someone else for President.
Leftist unity, but only for the authoritarian left. Hexbears either intentionally ignore or are not aware of the academic case for democratic socialism or other moderate/libertarian left ideas. You just redefine them as liberalism because actually acknowledging that these ideas might liberate workers faster than the often failed journey through autocracy, is very inconvenient for campism.
We are watching an actual genocide unfold in Gaza right now and it is impossible for Israel to hide it from the world. When will we finally get a single image from China depicting this so called Uyghur genocide? There’s not one image of death camps, mass graves, or dead bodies. How on earth is that possible? Internet access is extremely widespread in China.
Genocide doesn’t have too mean death.
Removed by mod
Non-death genocides are talked about quite a bit now when it comes to Russia in Ukraine and Israel in the West Bank
deleted by creator
This is the most “Portland Antifa Bookstore” thing I’ve read all week. You’re not more “principled” or “balanced,” you just want certain things to replace other things, (solarpunk lol), and you’re fully committed to avoiding the easy solution at all costs. Comfy Americans who want to stay comfy with no tough moral decisions ever make the worst kinds of leftists.
deleted by creator
I’d say more, but then you’d call me a debate pervert.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
“unfalsifiable orthodoxy”
talk of political organization outside of violent revolution is frowned on
Then why do so many people talk about how they are voting for
? Admittedly that’s mostly on Hexbear, but if anything I think we have too much electoralism and too many 
s.deleted by creator
There isn’t any discussion on political theory
there;s currently an ongoing bell hooks reading group, we just finished the wretched of the earth reading group, the daily megathread comes with a list of recomended works of anarchist and marxist theory, there are pretty frequent requests in the askchapo comm for works of theory on specific topics, the matrix room has its own pretty active theory discussion page, one of the recurring site taglines is a command telling the reader to read theory with a link to where to see it, and if you spend anytime at all active on the site someone will yell at you to read Settlers (ive actually seen people recomend this one so much that i actually know the url from the top of my head), The Jakarta Method, Blackshirts and Reds or Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink and Blue
edit
while refreshing the page for an example of the tagline’s telling the reader to go read theory coming up i saw this that you might find funny
ok, here are some actual ones telling the reader to read theory:
\Removed by mod
Excuses for the Uighur genocide
Are you seriously still on that shit?? After everything that has come out??? Also I give solarpunk like a month tops before it goes ecofash.
Ok, I’ll bite. What is “everything that has come out”?
A bunch of journalists actually went to China to see the abuse for themselves and didn’t walk away with anything to support that narrative. Best they could say to defend their case was “China is hiding the truth, that’s why we didn’t see anything” Over time, all the claims the right made about the “genocide” were slowly being deconfirmed to the point that it was becoming clear it was all made up. Is there a chance that some of the stuff actually was right? Maybe, but when you know it came from a place of bad faith you don’t exactly need to waste energy debunking each and every claim from the likes of faith healers and flat earthers when they have a rich history of flat out lying to drive a narrative.
When people actively invested in finding out fucked up shit can’t find any fucked up shit, it’s a pretty good sign it’s not happening.
EDIT: Doesn’t help that a lot of the people making the biggest fuss about the Uighurs are all siding with Israel in their genocide. One of the big key things that genocide deniers do is make a big stink about fake genocides that they made up on the spot (Fx: the great replacement)
Do you have a source for this? Last I looked into the Uighur genocide, it was being reported by well-respected outlets (not faith healers and flat earthers) and had photos of people being marched into camps.
So for it to suddenly be “all made up” sounds rather far-fetched to me.
I believe it was the AP who did a report on it.
Can you provide a link to the report?
CBA, it’s not going to change anyone’s mind anyway.
Generally, they aren’t marxists, they’re “tankies”. And even fairly extreme socialists tend to dislike that. That’s lemmygrad.
Hexbear is just filled with trolls that federated specifically to troll and disrupt the rest of lemmy in the name of their beliefs.
On either, you can find individuals that are perfectly cool to talk to. But it’s like rolling the dice where only snake eyes win. And, even when you win, you can’t be certain that it isn’t a long troll waiting to fuck with you because some of them do that too.
Sounds like Lemmy’s version of r/atheism 10+ years ago. Atheism itself is fine, but the sub became an insufferable circle jerk.
“Tankie” is a term that’s applied to literally any communist. I’ve heard it used against Trotskyists and fucking social democrats.
So, what’s actually the problem with them? Are they Maoists? CPC apologists?
They like Stalin, Putin , Xi and Kim. And defend everything they do.
Like WTF? How can a communist defend putin!?
II hear this constantly, I have yet to see it one time ever by ANY communists on ANY website.
Visit a few Ukraine threads, it’s one of the topics the fanatics pile on.
My point was that tankies are a “special” subset of communists.I have. I’ve still never seen it. What I do constantly see in those threads is dehumanization of Russian people and calls for mass genocide of them, though. Calling them orcs and talking about how they all deserve to die.
I don’t believe you, to be honest. One can acknowledge Russian security concerns (like multiple U.S. military officials and many high members of the UN have) without praising Putin. And I’ve still never seen a single communist say anything good about Putin. On any website.
I’ve never seen what you’re describing. Not about Russians anyway. I’ve seen far too many zionists saying that shit about Palestinians tho.
I’m glad for your sake. It’s pretty gross.
People who throw the word “tankie” around indiscriminately aren’t using it right. From what I’ve seen, it applies specifically to extreme communist fanboys who are apologists for communist militarism. For example, Tankies will say that the Tiananmen Square massacre was either justified or didn’t happen.
Just being a fan of communism doesn’t make someone a tankie.
Edit: see below for an excellent example
deleted by creator
Thank you!
Just take a look at this question, all of the answers are from lemmygrad and hexbear users. You are not going to get a good answer from them because they’re the people you’re asking the question about.
They are not hated they’re just annoying, no one really cares about their opinions the problem is is that they try and push their opinions on everybody else.
Yeah, they have a very alternative interpretation of geopolitics and they’re loud about it. If there was a flat earth instance with users that spammed every physics thread there would be some grumbling just the same.
Hexbear also weaponizes accusations of transphobia the same way Israel weaponizes accusations of anti-semitism.
Now Hexbear hasn’t done any genocide yet, but it does loove to talk about executing people, many and frequently.
The hexbear and lemmygrad users/posts I run across in All mostly remind me of those street corner preachers. I don’t care one way or another about their ideologies but it’s tiring that they always feel the need to shout it in your face.
I don’t hate them but find them to be obnoxious and mostly cult-like.
mostly cult-like.
Very much like a cult actually. Often times the opinions they are espousing don’t actually make much sense even within their own ideology, mostly because their kids and they don’t actually understand what they’re talking about.
It’s not communist ideology to claim that Tinnamon Square didn’t happen, it’s just China’s propaganda. It’s not the same thing.
Equally criticizing China is not the same as criticizing communism as a concept. It’s perfectly acceptable to think that communism is good but what China did is bad, but these idiots won’t allow you to say that. If they actually understood what they were talking about they’d realized that, but they don’t because as you say they’re in a cult.
Well, when I see a .ml user from here on out I’m not sure I’ll be able to give them the same sort of leeway.
I had one of their users confirm they were racist. Then I saw that only the parts where our conversation was removed by mods, and not shit canning the user.
You want people to like you, don’t lie down with racists.
I concur about .ml. It’s been eye opening being on the receiving end of a homophobic rant by a moderator of their world news community implying I’m not queer enough. It wouldn’t surprise me that they’re racist, too. Bigots tend to subscribe to more than one strain of bigotry.
I know it shouldn’t matter what people like that think, but I’d be lying if I said I’m not disappointed and dismayed. I’ve survived so many things and had a long hard road to self-acceptance. It’s disgusting to be invalidated by someone who likely has more than I’ve ever had.
I used to be confused when right wing nutjobs would say that the left is Racist, or Homophobic, or bigoted in general, it would make me confused as that wasn’t my experience and it’s not baked into left wing ideology. Hell, I didn’t really see it on reddit when I was there (the hate was from right wingers or gatekeepers).
Then I came here. Nice place in general. Waaaay better users than reddit as a whole. But now I know where the RWNJs got the idea.
Ain’t that the truth! I will say during my tenure on reddit, I heard of CTH and thought to myself, “I ultimately support a similar vision for our future, how bad can it be?” I was shocked to find one of the most exclusionary, bigoted dens of filth I’d seen outside of places like r/T_D
Ableist and bigoted language abounded, it was impossible to engage because they’d immediately bristle when anyone they perceived as beneath them wandered in.
I see a lot of the same things here. It’s really disappointing to us leftists who actually want to effect change. No one will listen to people like that. Hopefully they’re just kids who grow out of … whatever this is.
I don’t recognise the acronym CTH, and by the sounds of it, I am lucky to have not stumbled across the subreddits you speak of.
You mean kids growing out of being horrible people? Yeah, that’s the hope.
r/ChapoTrapHouse on reddit
It got banned around the same time as r/The_Donald, and its users migrated here and founded Hexbear
(I’m embarrassed that I know so much about this, but I was in another subreddit that discussed it a bit when it happened)
Oh, I’ve seen some of their shit. Fucking degens.
Middle class white gay men could use their privilege to help out the rest of the lgbtq community instead of being right wingers, but then that would require examining their privileges, and we can’t have that.
So pointing out those privileges and how different rights affect different subsections of the community differently because of those privileges is homophobic./s
Fuck off.
Haven’t seen any lemmygrad users in a while, but honestly the vitriol towards Hexbear is overblown. They’re fine. Bit trolly, and they shitpost a lot, but it’s kinda fun.
You are lucky you said “its kinda fun” because I was this 👌 close to trolling you with shit posts.
I’ve been trying to find a good Marxist instance, but Lemmygrad and Hexbear are widely hated. Why is that?
Because the majority of Ledditors are either liberals or full blown reactionaries and the ones who are not range from some cringey techno-libertarian who think FOSS will usher in socialism to some radlib cruise-missile socialist who strangely never deviates from the US state department. The very few who could legitimately be considered socialists are some kind of anarchist. They certainly aren’t Marxist.
Are there any good leftist instances?
Outside of those two, I won’t hold my breath. The easiest litmus test in the world is how they’re responding to the genocide at Gaza. There’s very few places where you’ll get complete support for the Palestinian liberation struggle and not whining about the imaginary babies Hamas allegedly beheaded or trying to equate the conduct of a genocidal nuclear power to a paramilitary fighting for national liberation.
What’s your opinion on killing civilians attending a festival?
just a heads up that they cant see your comment and wont be able to respond because according to the hexbear modlog you were banned from hexbear 3 months ago for transphobia and mocking non binary hexbear users for using alternative pronouns
just a heads up that they cant see your comment because according to the hexbear modlog you were banned from hexbear 3 months ago for transphobia and mocking non binary hexbear users for using alternative pronouns
Ahh, what actually happened is I said they behave like alt-right, and their neo-pronouns look more like a mockery of trans people than being genuinely trans-inclusive in ways that matter in real life.
Which, I’m still open to an explanation of how they are advancing trans right irl, and taking the L and admitting I was wrong. Their response was to sexually harass me instead. I’m not mad, but if I accuse you of behaving like alt-right and you dig your heels in deeper to behave like alt-right, that’s on you man.
Thank you for the heads up though.
** Edit: as a sidenote, for all the lip-service Hexbear gives trans people, they still cannot tell the difference between men and people with penises.
as a trans person reading some of the comments they cite as the reason you’re banned they seem pretty transphobic, just because you preface one of them with an ‘im not transphobic, but…’ comment it doesnt make it not transphobic to mock people for using neopronouns
“I think neopronouns are stupid and come from a place of privilege and boredom”
“neopronouns are entirely a basement dweller thing.”
“I’m not even a liberal, but y’all are so chronically online and accustomed to being in a little echo chamber you can’t talk to anyone rationally. I’ve never met a trans person IRL who needs me to remember 4 pronouns, or needs pronouns like “Fae”, but say something on Hexbear and you’re instantly transphobic liberal Hitler.”
“Pronouns are fine, y’all took it to a level that looks like alt-right satire of pronouns. Trans rights are human rights, but am I literally Hitler because I don’t think “comrade” or “fae” make sense when used as pronouns? You seem very rational and not at all unhinged.”
“Trans people don’t need 4 pronouns including things like “Fae” and “Doe”, or by “trans” you are you referring to “trans-species” people? I’m not yet open minded on trans-species, I’ll grant you that.”
Yeah I was a complete asshole. Not an excuse, but this was after about 2-dozen people sexually harassed me, so I was not at my best. And I will apologize any time for anyone who is hurt or offended.
That said, I was also speaking to people who started out as rape apologists in the context of Russian soldiers and Ukrainians families. If you’re pretty cool with kids getting raped by soldiers, but you’re offended that someone didn’t memorize 4 different neo-pronouns, that is 100% a place of privilege. Am I wrong on that?
Edit: also, as you are a trans person, recognizing that you are in a world where your safety is often a razor-thin line, anything I said that you felt unsafe around, I do deeply apologize.
looking at the original thread through the modlog on their side they were actually talking about food security in china and not r*pe apologia. Even if they had been saying how great SA is, the transphobia you showed in that thread entirely unprompted wouldnt have been justified because they were doing something that was also bad
So maybe you can help me out with this bit:
Where I’m at right now, I feel like trans inclusivity means, that regardless of being born afab or amab, if you want to be perceived and treated by he/him pronouns, she/her pronouns, or they/them pronouns, you deserve that recognition and treatment.
That is currently where I am at for trans inclusivity.
I support that, in my workplace and in my community.
Am I falling short here? Am I not reaching far enough to be trans inclusive?
Edit: SA was a different thread, it’s somewhere way back there in my history.
Since you’re either unable or unwilling to engage in any further, I’ll tell you what it looks like right now:
Any rational well-adjusted person will be pro-trans rights. Therefore it doesn’t make a good enough loyalty check for a rather high-key cultish group. The neo-pronouns are the loyalty check. Neo-pronouns have nothing to do with being trans, everything to do with checking to see if someone fits into the cult.
Hexbear weaponizes accusations of transphobia the exact way Israel weaponizes accusations of antisemitism. It’s nothing to do with trans people or Jewish people, and everything to do with the cult. You are either with the cult, or you’re against it.
At the end of the day, Israel is bad for Jews, and will happily sacrifice the rights of Jewish people around the world, I think Hexbear is bad for trans rights, and will happily sacrifice the rights and safety of trans people anywhere in the world to achieve its own political goals. For example, Dems in the US might be trash, but they are also the only change trans people have right now. I think Hexbear would throw trans people in the US in front of a train if it meant a geopolitical win for them.
So call me whatever you want; when it comes to afab and amab people who want to be identified as a brother, a sister, or a sibling, they have always had my unwavering support. When it comes to Hexbear and the neo-pronouns, that is demonstrably the real transphobia, and trans exploitation. And I am still waiting to hear otherwise.
Also gonna bug you again because I am so thirsty for conversation around this.
I am not trans, but from what I’ve seen and experienced from people close to me, especially in the midwest, living as a trans person is difficult and dangerous. There’s so much work to put in to be perceived a certain way, which bathroom is it safe to use, getting medical care, getting hormones and transitioning, who is it safe to come out to.
But then you can have over here a super privileged white man, who decides he now goes by neo-pronouns, puts no work or risk in and retains every privilege in society of being a white man.
This looks to me in absolutely no way comparable to what it’s like to be trans.
I would say something like, I feel like neo-pronoun people have culturally appropriated the struggle of trans people. You can pick up some neo-pronouns and get all the leftist points, without actually putting yourself on the line the way trans people put themselves on the line.
I’ll take the L again and say the above is coming from a place of personal ignorance. I am an ignorant asshole. I’m very interesting in learning different and even better perspectives.
Do you mean the civilians at the festival that the IDF admitted to killing on the 6th?
