- cross-posted to:
- progressivepolitics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- progressivepolitics@lemmy.world
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This point about Bernie winning has been belabored, however consider a 2016 election where the DNC didn’t collude for Hillary. Then we have Bernie as the ticket and beating trump and never hearing of that fucker again (hopefully). What a different world it would’ve been having Bernie as the 45th president
The point is to hammer this into the thick skulls of the people running the DNC. They keep forcing shit down our throats. It’s time for change.
The problem is you people keep accepting it with gusto
What do you mean by “you people?”
Exactly that
Exactly what? Be specific.
@Shardikprime@lemmy.world won’t be specific because of their cowardice.
Whatever floats your metaphorical boat dude
The donors would have never stood for it, which is why the DNC did what it did.
Yeah, the DNC will only support central and right leaning Capitalist candidates.
The DNC and RNC are 527 non profit companies.
In a country where money == speech and corporations are allowed to use their freedom to speak freely.
They’re actively supporting the largest voices in the room, corporations.
They said “imagine,” you potato.
Which state’s primary votes did the DNC alter or override to give Hillary the nomination by popular vote instead for Bernie?
The other candidates gradually stepped aside to allow Hillary to run. The big one being Joe Biden not running as it was her “turn”, allegedly after the deal between the Clintons and the Obamas.
If Biden had run in 2016, he probably would have won. And Trump would be a footnote in history.
footnote in history
Now Trump will be at least a chapter, maybe even a whole book!
And it will be the greatest book you have ever read, just so bigly yuge, tremendous! Not like those Democrats and their small books, with the tiny writing and confusing words and no pictures.
…I tried. Just imagine the pitch gradually increasing and the first part being all enthusiastic, then him dropping to a low pitch and trying to sound all grave for the second sentence. Someone else better at channeling orange asshole-ese?
The other candidates gradually stepped aside to allow Hillary to run. The big one being Joe Biden not running as it was her “turn”, allegedly after the deal between the Clintons and the Obamas.
Apologies, but I can’t tell if you’re trying to supplement my point or pose an answer to my question.
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What if I told you it was also about manipulating voter opinions.
Like how the superdelegates were all pledging their votes to Hillary way ahead of the first primaries. Or how the DNC pushed Hillary over Bernie, as was clear in the Debbie W.S. leaked DNC emails. Also, the widespread pressure from party darlings on Bernie to drop out.
Messaging from the media was to blame as well. This was reflected in:
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Lack of coverage of the polling that showed the better margin of success in a Bernie v. Trump matchup against a Hillary v. Trump matchup. This one is especially egregious, in my opinion, since a lot of the Hillary supporters I personally knew voted for her in the primaries because they assumed she had a better chance of winning.
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Lack of coverage about Bernie’s higher popularity with independent voters in polls.
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Widespread reporting when Hillary decided to label Bernie supporters as basement dwellers.
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Hillary accused Bernie of being sexist and the media did terrible due diligence.
Why not just tell me those things instead of making it a hypothetical?
I think those are all valid points to raise and consider. I voted for Bernie in my primary and Hillary in the general.
Like how the superdelegates were all pledging their votes to Hillary way ahead of the first primaries.
Was there a single state, where the popular vote was for Bernie but the super delegates swept in and gave it Hillary instead?
Or how the DNC pushed Hillary over Bernie
This is not me shrugging it off as a totally cool and reasonable thing, but is that any different than any other election year, from either party, where the established power structure of the party has a preferred candidate? What I’m saying is I don’t think this is anything specifically anti-Bernie as much as a very well established pattern of nepotism that goes back centuries.
as was clear in the Debbie W.S. leaked DNC emails.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but did not the DNC emails show that proposed rat-fuckery was ultimately rejected?
Also, the widespread pressure from party darlings on Bernie to drop out.
Just par for the course, and not special opposition because Bernie is Bernie.
Messaging from the media was to blame as well
I agree with you that the media wasn’t fair in their coverage. Maybe just have been my own echo chamber but I do recall seeing polling data showing Bernie did better against Trump being brought up all over the place.
However, I’m only pursuing discussion of the claims/sentiment that the DNC denied Bernie the nomination. I see that sentiment popping up a lot, and it always completely ignores the fact that Hillary won the popular vote in the primary. Just like Trump just won the popular vote in the general. The only way the parties will change is by enough people showing up in their primaries to nominate better candidates. They aren’t going to change because we’re mad about the results of the election. They don’t care what non-voters think because non-voters don’t win elections, voters do.
Was there a single state, where the popular vote was for Bernie but the super delegates swept in and gave it Hillary instead?
Mine. West Virginia. Hillary got 35% of the primary vote while Bernie only got 51% and therefore she got one more delegate than Bernie. She literally only ever needed 30% of the primary vote in any state because of superdelegates.
We had a local candidate who only ran in WV, whose whole purpose for running was to try to draw national attention to economically gutted regions of the state caused by the so-called war on coal who got 9% of the vote, and even he managed to outperform Hillary in one county (taking second, because Bernie won every county in WV) - when you’re behind a protest candidate anywhere, you done fucked up.
Thank you! I’ve been asking that question for years and you’re the first to provide an example. Point conceded.
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Yeah what I remember working on the campaign was a bunch of people didn’t show up and fucking vote in the primary and Bernie lost. Sure, there was some fuckery that shifted momentum but at the end of the day my fellow progressives didn’t get enough votes because we act like the DNC controls the outcome of the primaries and end up helping make that the reality ourselves.
If all the people bitching about the DNC and telling everyone the Democrats are a lost cause showed up to vote in the primary, Bernie would’ve won.
a bunch of people didn’t show up and fucking vote … and Bernie lost
It’s obnoxious how often that’s why the conservatives win.
It’s genuinely every time. That is the principle difference between left and right voters.
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Small tangent. Instead of reading it as bee-labored, I read belabored as bella-bored the first time and I was like, “Bela… bored…? Huh, that’s a new word. Let’s Google that! … Oh, I’m an idiot.”
Thank you for letting me follow you on this unremarkable journey through mediocrity.
Glad you enjoyed it. There are hard pretzels and tap water if you’d like.
I love Bernie. I know he would have beat Trump in 2016. Both tap into populist sentiment, albeit on different sides of the political spectrum. The difference is Bernie wouldn’t have any of the baggage that Trump brings with the racism, misogyny, incoherence, etc. he would have won easily. I weep for what would have been. He would have been a champion for the working class, not the charlatan that Trump is.
I think one thing that the Republicans did that Dems didn’t is they let the people pick their candidate. It’s that simple. They didn’t care how unpolished he was, his lack of pedigree, anything. There was no ideological purity test. They duked it out in their primary and let the people decide. Something for the Dems to learn from.
The primaries that the winning candidate refused to participate in? Check your fairness a little closer.
The turd has been given special treatment at every turn.
Fair. I forgot about that
He’s 83 years old, older than both Trump and Biden.
I’d like to see AOC throw her hat in for 2028. She’ll be 39 then.
I’d love to see this but her chances are likely worse than Harris. And that’s assuming we have an honest election in '28.
Maybe, maybe not. Looking at the answers from her “AOC and Trump” voter cross-section, it seems like you just need to run someone who’s “genuine.” Both of them are seen as genuine or real (whether that’s true or not, it doesn’t matter).
Populism can cut both ways and AOC might be just the ticket we need.
That was my primary complaint about Harris, she had the same plastic, fake insincerity Clinton did.
I mean, I voted for her ANYWAY because the alternative is just… 🤢🤮
I’m starting to be of the mind that literally nothing matters in the presidential election except vibes/personality. Assuming there is an election and assuming people are sick of Trump by then I think she’d have a great shot.
I would love this, but the DNC likely won’t learn from their mistakes.
Yeah, I’ve already seen the name “Gavin Newsom” floated around for 2028.
DNC doesn’t learn.
There will be a proper primary in '28 and Newsome will be the Democratiic Mitt Romney. No idea if he’ll win.
My favorite joke on Romney, I think it was Letterman? “Sears Catalog underwear model, Mitt Romney.”
The more one looks into the DNC, the more questions exist. Is it really a wounder how much inflation took place over the Obama years? Under Biden? They push party people, they get party people, who have the same great money management skills. And people are fed up with it.
People are fed up with GOP folk just the same - for different reasons. Trump was the NOT GOP, not DNC nominee, it isn’t really a wounder why he found support. It’s really just a wounder how the leadership of the parties couldn’t figure out that serious reform is needed internally.
Why does nobody seem to understand what fascism and, “dictator on day one” means?
Your vote will never mean anything ever again.
That would also require Trump to be competent and while he’s a great many things, that is one thing he will never be.
As much as I love her, America will never elect a female president anytime soon. There are many men who believe the presidency is a man’s job.
Why would you say that?
Harris didn’t lose because she was a woman - she lost because she was associated so heavily with the Biden administration as more, and more questions started being asked.
Hillary didn’t lose because she was a Woman, she lost because she was a Clinton and there are so many left overs - and by popular vote: She won, but the US isn’t about the popular vote. But when we look at the split - it is VERY interesting.
AOC is generally speaking - widely approachable, talks some sanity, is willing to talk both sides of the Aisle, and so on. I can’t actually readily find a reason to be flat out opposed to her: I mean sure, there are policies and such that I don’t always agree with - but generally speaking, it is rare to find someone you completely agree with, and someone you completely disagree with: And if you ALWAYS disagree with everything, and can’t have a discussion - often times it’s not the other person with the issue.
The reality is, there are plenty of Men and Woman that won’t or will vote one way or another for a wide number of reasons, and odds are - put into the mix, it all washes out.
Truth is, when Covid was raging on - I kinda thought that Republicans would basically screw themselves over with the way it was handled and the death counts etc. But what it turns out - is a lot of deaths were assigned to covid but related to Cancer, heart disease, and so on with Covid as a contributing factor: So while dangerous, it seems the numbers were conflated - and that, is a very dangerous thing to do as the truth will, sooner or later, win out. And here we are.
The thing is: AOC doesn’t strike me as mainstream Democrat. And that alone will mean the DNC is unlikely to back her as a candidate - they want a party person through and through, and that, is ultimately what lost them this election.
I don’t think that Harris’s problem was that she was a woman. Her problem, same as Mrs. Clinton, was everything else. And that is a long list for both of them. Being women probably didn’t help, but it also wasn’t their main chute.
This thread is ridiculous. A woman or a jewish person cannot be elected President of the United States. How much more evidence do you need.
They said the same thing about black people until a black man running as a progressive won the nomination. I think you’ve been learning the wrong lesson from all the elections since.
I think you are underestimating how deeply misogynistic your country is.
Please read my previous comment again because the response to this statement is exactly the same.
Man, you’ll really say anything to avoid admitting that progressives win elections, won’t you?
I’d vote for her. I’m in Tennessee… so it won’t matter. But I’ll vote for her.
She’s nothing but a gatekeeping mouthpiece for the DNC.
They will fucking kill her. Not kidding. Unfortunately.
As impossible and abstract as it seems to realign the Democratic base by shared class interests, it’s still much a more concrete plan than “reduce bigotry in strangers”
Amen. Amen. Tried and failed, twice. Populism is the only way forward. Democrats must become the party of the poor again.
Strange thing to have to say.
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Voters are saying “I am going to be homeless and can’t even afford bread”. The Democrat response to this is “stop being racist, the economy is fine”.
I’m really not sure what anyone expected besides failure from this.
It sucks because some of the agencies were doing good work, especially the mounting attacks on landlords and monopolists/oligopolists, which are necessary but will almost certainly end now. Honestly it felt like they wanted to lose, having learned nothing from 2016.
He always would have. He knows how to get the people motivated and straight up fucking torqued. He hits every nail when it comes to social or economic problems. On top of it all, he’s so passionate about it he’ll argue until he’s red in the face for us. Honestly fuck everyone who worked to move that man out of the way.
And yet, he lost.
Bernie bros whinge so much about how unfair such and such was to Bernie. Do you think Trump’s campaign would have been less fair?
Also do you forget Russia was supporting Bernie because they wanted him as a spoiler, and yet you all sit here and continue to divide rather than support people who are damn close to your own values. It’s insane.
Bernie lost the primaries when the DNC pushed a bunch of people out of the primary and have them endorse Hillary in a night time maneuver right before the deciding states primary elections.
…and they did this because they’d agreed not to do superdelegates in 2020 which meant they couldn’t use the same levers they’d been wielding in 2016 and before to put a thumb on the scale.
Anyone can win, just as soon as you guys stop fighting tooth and nail to keep anyone but the most moderate democrat from being allowed to compete.
It seemed that it was a rejection of whatever political group was in power across the globe for the most part this year. This is largely in part because the world as a whole is still healing/recovering from the damage of COVID, and in the US the Dems were left to clean up an economic disaster left by Trump. And we have a large number of people who felt the effects of inflation and for reasons I can’t wrap my head around felt the Dems needed to be voted out. Then we had all the people who wanted to teach the Dems a lesson because of Gaza by making sure Trump was elected to help Israel level the area and make sure there was no future for Palestinians (which is another contradiction I can’t wrap my head around).
So really I think the Dems could have had a unicorn candidate (Bernie) and they still would have lost this election, because enough people only vote for themselves.
Fucking THANK YOU, for elucidating this so cleanly into a two paragraphs.
The wandering shell shock on Lemmy for a week was miserable to witness.
Do you guys really believe the populist position is to “vote the Democrats out” and that Gaza was really the reason for voter apathy that effects half the population? Couldn’t be messaging or effective policies being lacking, definitely blame anyone against a continually funded arsenal in the hands of aggressive governments.
Your right. The anti-establishment mood in this country and abroad has been building for decades. Americans have never voted based on foreign policy unless that foreign policy is directly impacting them.
I agree. If we now acknowledge that genocide was a relevant factor in making the Dems loose, this is bad for AIPAC. We need to quickly reestablish different narratives to protect AIPAC interests by claiming it was everything but the genocide. It took AIPAC a few days to develop the new narratives but now we need to embrace them.
Under Trump, Palestine as understood today will cease to exist and Israel will have two new superfund sites to deal with
Do you think the outcome would be different under democrats? Please tell me how the party that has given billions in support of israel’s genocide for over a year was so totally going to stop it at any moment if they just simply got voted in again.
If you’re still asking this question, you are either a disingenuous troll or you are beyond help. You obviously haven’t spent even five minutes trying to understand why the U.S. is still funding Israel and the general positions of the two candidates and instead feel that time is better spent riffing on the same Lemmy buzzword.
…yuuuup. the US position under the two main parties is about the same on the Palestine issue. The only difference is the speed and intensity that actions will take.
The Biden/Harris administration just declared, that their “red-line” for more weapons to Israel, the continued starvation of Gaza with an ultimatum to today, was indeed not a red-line.
Look at the actions, not at the words. There is absolutely no indication by the actions of Biden and Harris, that they would ends Israels US funded genocide. Especially now as the whole “we need to toe the line, because of the Israel-Lobby” bullshit falls apart. The election is over. If the Dems had any serious interest in preventing Israel from annihilating Palestine, now would be the time to do so. They don’t. Because they always were and still are in support of Israels genocide.
I don’t think that the final, final outcome would be different. You are completely right on this. But under Trump it will be supercharged and any restraint that existed to this point will be gone.
Calling for a cease fire is definitely the same as what you wrote. /s
Rewriting history isn’t supposed to be on the schedule for freedom loving folks.
Someone else assembled this reference for those ignorant of the news.
Under the democrats today, this is literally happening and has for the past year now.
So really I think the Dems could have had a unicorn candidate (Bernie) and they still would have lost this election, because enough people only vote for themselves.
I always vote “for myself” which meant voting for Harris. Her policies are more in line with my best interests than all that maga bullshit.
By “vote for themselves” I meant people voting based on the outcome for them personally. My being a white male allows me a large amount of privilege in this country, and so I choose to use my vote to help others (knowing it doesn’t put us anywhere close to being treated equal overall). So my vote for Harris was to help women, people of color, immigrants, the kids (who are going to have education decimated now and white washed so much more than it already has been), and for trans kids/adults, for everyone in the LGBTQ+ orbit, and on and on. What would benefit me didn’t even play into it, because I’d be fine comparatively (minus the anxiety/depression that Trump causes).
Man the delusion is always so real in a circular firing squad lol.
Everyone loves Bernie.
But dang it the man is 83. He should be enjoying the last years of his life in retirement. It makes me sad to think he still needs to be working in politics.
He’s as old as Trump, who is already too old for this shit, will be at the end of his term.
Maybe there should be a hard limit at 65 or something for politicians. Both to keep out people in whom dementia is clearly starting to appear and to let old people frickin’ rest.
We should, and it should be called the Logan’s Run law, to give them something to think about
Here from PA to tell you you’re nuts, Bernie would not have won.
Also: Downvote. Since we’re not mature enough to handle actual downvotes anymore.
Perhaps you’d like to elaborate?
In this case I actually think the downvotes are appropriate. It’s not that you’re presenting a different opinion but you’re not adding any reasoning or substance to your claim
If they can deny a genocide is occuring in Gaza they can deny that Bernie would have won with the same intellectual rigor.
Also: Downvote. Since we’re not mature enough to handle actual downvotes anymore.
Maybe you’re not…
Good one
Here from PA to disagree. I believe that if Bernie had won in 2016, his VP would be our president-elect right now, and Trump would’ve never attempted a return to politics.
Didn’t pre-stroke Fetterman win in PA? Often he was compared to Bernie, although maybe the media got that one wrong considering what stances Fetterman leans on these days.
He did, but my opinion as someone who voted for him: he’s really not accomplished anything, hasn’t been the same after the stroke. I’m told his impairment is simply audio/visual but in my mind his judgment is impaired.
When he won, he was running against a clown (Dr. Oz) who only narrowly beat McCormick. (McCormick just recently defeated long-time incumbent Casey and is considered much more serious and competent.) I know many people who based their vote for Fetterman on the the issue of recreational marijuana legalization (even though he doesn’t have a role in accomplishing that at the state level as a US senator).
Anyway, I would not expect Fetterman to be re-elected, if he even runs.
Honestly I think he would have simply because with the evidence we’ve seen, Americans are really that stupid and racist they as long as you promise them you’d magically fix all of their problems without any plan behind it.
Americans are rightfully concerned about the economy and I, even as a upper middle class person, was concerned about inflation but I’m pretty plugged into what’s going on in the world because I have the luxury of having a job where I’m posting on Lemmy in the middle of the day.
Bernie would have offered loud, in your face I’m going to fuck corporations and get you a living wage, wither he could actually do that given America, it wouldn’t have mattered because that what Americans wanted to hear, even if you never wanted to do that in the first place.
God I hate that Greenday is correct.
Yep, I think anybody who isn’t a genocidal zio could’ve won. The dems chose genocide over “winning”. That’s liberalism.
So instead the voters chose genocide + a whole lot more bad stuff.
There is still a lot of Arabs, Blacks, Latinos, Asians to be genocided by the white supremacy. Punishing genocide now has the potential to save billions of lifes later on. Whoever supports or eneacts genocide needs to be politically punished. Whoever opposes it needs to be politically rewarded. This way genocide becomes a political liability and opposing genocide a political asset.
A lot of democrats could have won this election. Ultimately the big mistakes were allowing Biden to run unchallenged, then sticking with Biden until it was too late. Harris then had an impossible task to win.
If the democrats had an actual democratic process, and put their best possible candidate forward they may have won. Instead this election was very much a repeat of 2016 - the wrong candidate, being favoured through to the election by the DNC. In 2016 the DNC closed ranks around Clinton because of fear of Bernie and also because of a crazy notion that it was “her turn”. Biden didn’t run when he should have. This time Biden ran when he shouldn’t have, and other strong candidates in the party didn’t get a chance.
But it was more than the candidate - the election focus was totally wrong. 1/3 of the electorate did not vote - and this election is not a story of Trump breaking through. Trump got 74m votes in 2020 and about 74m now. The Dems got 81m votes in 2020 and 71m votes now - Trump is basically static; but the Dems lots 10m votes because they ran a bad campaign. Those missing 10m voters are in the 1/3 who are not included in polls; because Trump has not broken much above his 74m ceiling. The Dems floor fell out under them instead.
The polls always showed 50:50 but that was just “likely voters”. Really 1/3 support dems, 1/3 support reps and 1/3 weren’t going to vote. That vast pool of people are not all never voters; the missing 10m are in there. THAT is where the Dems should have been going for votes. Forget the republicans; they should have been reaching out to the disinterested and disenfranchised. A positive message that actually addresses their concerns.
The “moderate” Republican votes were never in play nor worth courting, and the abortion and democracy focuses were not the priorities of voters. The dems needed to listen to the actual voters - and the message of what the voters cared about is clear: the economy. The Dems needed to have a clearer message on the economy - “it’s doing great” does not tally with voters experiences who are living with high cost of living after inflation. Prices haven’t fallen back, they’ve just stopped rising as fast. The message to voters should have been “we’ve done some stuff but there is more to do” and offer clear policies are wage growth, housing/rent costs etc. Give the disinterested in particular something to vote for.
So yes, maybe Bernie would have won. But lets not forget he chose to endorse Biden, not run in the democratic party primary. So it’s actually his fault too.
Only Dean Philips, Marianne Williamson and Jason Palmer actually stood up and challenged Biden in the primaries, and they were criticised for doing so as if they were the reason Trump would win.
The Clintons need to retire from public life. Seriously.
Is pretty clear that people are unhappy and want change.
There’s no meaningful change to be had. The political parties and their funders have got very wealthy the way things are, and they’d like to keep it that way thank you very much.
The whole process in almost every country in undemocratic as shit. We need to be able to vote and have referendums on individual policies. Few people are 100% behind any candidate. What if you want abortions but hate immigrants? What if you’re transgender but still think corporations should be able to stomp all over us?
You want X, you get X, Y, and Z. This is why it’s always “lesser evil” and not “greater good”. Your vote is diluted by sewage.
I’ve been saying that since the DNC muscled him out in 2015. Stupid establishment Republicrats.
