According to the national DSA forum dwellers Zohran has been consistent on this for over 6 months 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
OK, but isn’t that worse? “He has insisted for 6 months of genocide that he will intentionally hire genocide supporters” lol.
You’re braver than I am for reading through a thread like that, comrade.
He has been allied with brad lander for as long as I’ve been aware of either of them. it is likely lander could stay on in his administration.
brad lander is a zionist and there is no secret about that he said it on some talk show that was widely circulated.
the news story here, as I understand it, isn’t that he would hire zionists, but that he said he would hire zionists.
Well damn. That sucks. Not surprising but still sucks.
So in terms of criticism, do youse all think there would be a way for him to fully not have anyone who is a Zionist in his administration? If so, how?
And does there exist a full slate of qualified non Zionists to fill every position? That would be a cool article for someone in NYC to write.
Or is it that there is no way to be mayor of NYC without that, so he shouldn’t become mayor because it requires capitulating immediately in this way?
Or is it that there is no way to be mayor of NYC without that, so he shouldn’t become mayor because it requires capitulating immediately in this way?
Yeah pretty much. NYC is where Wall Street is located at after all. The heart of a heartless world. NYC should be seen as a final stronghold of capital where the bourgeoisie will make their last stand while the rest of the world has already become socialist.
I don’t really see much here that’s specific to NYC other than the fact that it’s newsworthy elsewhere. Do you think an overt platform of anti-zionism is an easy win everywhere else?
As Socialists we should shy away from what’s “easy” and work to push the masses towards our views. If anything Zohran should be getting more based since he has all but formally won this thing.
So in terms of criticism, do youse all think there would be a way for him to fully not have anyone who is a Zionist in his administration? If so, how?
This is not my main problem here, my main problem is “I will hire some zionists, and some of them I will know are zionists when hiring them”. I think “don’t say you’ll knowingly hire nazis” is a low bar for me to set in order to not be disappointed in a socialist candidate.
So you think it would be possible?
I literally dont know because Zionism is so deeply embedded everywhere.
I know for me I have worked with Zionists and Nazis and I have no choice in the matter. I could never say “I won’t work with Zionists or Nazis”.
I think there is selection pressure that those people move up in ranks. so if you are looking at the pool of available people to hire for a senior position, are there enough candidates who are able willing and available to fill the jobs? Knowing that they might personally get a lot of backlash for even taking the job under that circumstance. Need to be both competent and brave.
If there are, then doesn’t it make sense to say “I’ll consider everyone” then just fill the positions with your people anyway?
And fr look how hard it is for a site like hexbear to find mods who never ever do anything that could be understood as Zionist. Making a statement that would leave his administration open to permanent struggle sessions seems like a bad idea.
He could also just not comment either way. If he said this same statement but he said “don’t worry, there will be klansmen in my administration” the reaction shouldn’t be “well of course, it would require a draconian level of oversight to enforce the alternative” the reaction should be “why tf are you saying that?”
Making a statement that would leave his administration open to permanent struggle sessions seems like a bad idea.
Then avoid the question, or say anything other than “I will hire nazis knowingly”. Just say “some of the people I hire might be nazis, I’m not giving everyone a political quiz” if you absolutely have to.
This is an unforced error.
I don’t follow beat by beat but I think its been understood for a long time that he’s gonna have brad lander in there. And he has affirmed Zionism. This was all since before the primary even happened so there is no news.
I agree it would be better to have developed one of the smart ass deflections people find so cute. Maybe he reached the limit if his charm.
To see someone harming the interests of the masses and yet not feel indignant, or dissuade or stop him or reason with him, but to allow him to continue. This is an eighth type.
Did we all collectively forget that Mamdani has defined his campaign by being laser focused on lowering cost of living and improving quality of life for working class New Yorkers? Ofc I’m bitterly disappointed by this, especially with how weak he has been in his antizionism after it was hyped up so much, but if I lived in NYC I’d still vote for him in a heartbeat. Actual change will not come from an elected politician, but from a proletarian revolution. If come November it seems like he is the candidate whose election will allow the working class the most breathing room to live and organize then please just fucking vote for the guy. Unlike Kamala there is actually a decent case for harm reduction with this one I think.
but if I lived in NYC I’d still vote for him in a heartbeat.
why do you think someone who will allow genocidal fascists in his administration, who are currently in the process of committing a genocide, would ever truly care about you? Like the person has already shown he doesn’t give a shit about human life and is fine with people who want to destroy it being on his administration. Would you trust someone like this with your life?
What else is social democracy but defending and strengthening imperialism while redistributing the wealth generated by imperialism to placate the workers and prevent radicalization? It’s basically what New Deal Democrats did.
If Mamdani fulfills his promises it’ll prevent New Yorkers from forming a workers’ party, demobilize anti Zionism, and foster class collaboration and labor peace.
This is a great, clear, succinct, explanation of the situation with respect to theory.But that’s all you have, theory. It’s literally impossible in practice because of the ‘prisoners dilemma’ of working, living, and labor. This is why I’m convinced all communists who smear the leftmost american politicians are delusional and not worth collaborating with. No one is far left enough. No one is pure enough. Not AoC, not Mamdani, not Sanders, it’s impossible to actually present a candidate who would be accepted by ya’ll.
No one on the far left can put together a tent of any number of people, and therefore participate meaningfully in political society, because Full Communism is so ideologically pure as to be impossible to implement. You reject the “perfect is the enemy of good” argument and instead propose accelerationist revolution, which nearly always results in a Junta instead of your ideal political system.
It makes me believe you have no desire to actual productive results, and instead would rather lob critisims without ever participating in meaningful change. That you actually prefer if we all destroy ourselves rather than build a coalition of the willing.
We’ll be arguing about who was unelectable all the way up to the gallows.
The fact that you’re trying to find an electoral candidate that would please us, when we couldn’t be clearer about how we think the electoralist strategy is a trap, shows you either aren’t listening or you think we’re little babies who can be convinced by someone jingling keys in front of our face. Yes, we aren’t satisfied by any candidate, that’s the point. That doesn’t mean we hope they lose because they are insufficient, it means we are working to make other people can see that even if you win with a “good enough” candidate capitalism is still capitalism. The July 26th movement wasn’t voted into office. Ho Chi Minh didn’t beat the various imperialists at the ballot box. To dismantle imperialism you need a military strategy, not just throwing your time and energy away supporting electoral campaigns.
But that’s all you have, theory.
So… What do you have? Did you win?
It’s literally impossible in practice because of the ‘prisoners dilemma’ of working, living, and labor.
does nobody know what prisoners dilemma means anymore? what are you talking about?
No one is pure enough. Not AoC, not Mamdani, not Sanders, it’s impossible to actually present a candidate who would be accepted by ya’ll.
yes because the point is not to present a candidate, the point is to build a workers party.
does nobody know what prisoners dilemma means anymore? what are you talking about?
You subscribe to the “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” communism Marx put forward, right? That model is a post-scarcity, Star Trek style communism system. The issue is there will always be a stratification of work. Statesman and Janitors. Artists and Engineers. Some individuals will be compelled to drive the trash truck. Will we have enough people that just love dirty jobs to do every dirty job out there? Will we be able to automate every undesirable task? No. Someone makes the post-scarcity world run on time, and Patriotism + Civic Duty sadly only takes us so far. Your model assumes that humans will let themselves fall into a system were some people get ground down as cogs, and others get to spend their day painting by the sea, and everyone will subscribe to the model because of the needs of the many.
I argue that you end up with a Prisoners Dilemma where individuals will subvert that system and avoid contributions to their ability, while continuing to take according to their need. That enforcement of the political system will push you out of it. It’s not attainable because of the inherent nature of humans to eventually betray each other in the Prisoner’s dilemma. Someone will claim “I can only paint. I cannot harvest grain” and when others in the fields see the painter, your model disintegrates.
yes because the point is not to present a candidate, the point is to build a workers party.
Your party is unable to recruit membership of any significant slice of the population because of purity tests, so this isn’t going to happen with your current outlook. I personally believe the Far Left has no actual desire to organize because that would require a real defense of their platform, vs. lobbing purity tests at others.
Don’t get me wrong. I want to live in the Star Trek society. I just accept we will never get there. So I want to get as close as possible. I think a key difference is my willingness to iterate over the flawed system rather than attempt a full re-creation of our society from whole cloth. Because I can read a history book and see the risk level with power vacuums. Maybe that’s cowardice. Maybe it’s pragmatism. I guess that’s why I’m not a hexbear or .ml user :)
It’s not attainable because of the inherent nature of humans to eventually betray each other in the Prisoner’s dilemma.
If you had any idea about dialectical materialism, you would know that humans have no inherent nature. This is a reactionary talking point.
I personally believe the Far Left has no actual desire to organize because that would require a real defense of their platform
You have not seen communist organising. I recommend you look into it. Outside of the US would be good too (not to mention countries with communist parties in power).
I want to live in the Star Trek society.
I don’t particularly care what US tv show you want to live in. Go to a cosplay event I guess.
As funkystuff said, you are just projecting what you think communism is (based on you watching Star Trek apparently), dismiss it with reactionary opinions, then say that organising doesn’t work. If you stepped outside (the US) for two seconds you would see the contrary.
It’s very arrogant to impose your misunderstanding of socialism and communism on us, then because that misunderstood version doesn’t work you assume we aren’t serious people.
The “don’t vote for social democrats because the revolution is just around the corner” logic doesn’t work for me. It’s just accelerationism.
every time communists have been constructively opposed to social democrats, it has been when the communist party is sufficiently strong to offer an alternative. Right now we’re not members of an alternative political group, we’re randoms on the internet.
Sure, I’m just pointing out that there’s reasons to believe Mamdani will try to fulfill his promises. The real limitations he’ll face are from the decline of the US empire; as superprofits run out there’s less wealth to redistribute in the first place. The material base for social democracy actually isn’t there anymore, that’s why social democracies in Europe are all doing austerity now.
why do you think someone who will allow genocidal fascists in his administration, who are currently in the process of committing a genocide, would ever truly care about you?
Because why else would he be doing any of this instead of taking the easy route like Hakeem Jeffries and just getting in bed with AIPAC? I don’t think he would be saying this if he didn’t think he had to, which is sad and I think misguided but what do I know? And I don’t even understand the point of this question either? Ofc he cares but that shouldn’t be a good metric for a politician since that should be given, even though obviously it’s novel here. I think AOC cares a lot about the working class too but clearly that’s not enough.
Like the person has already shown he doesn’t give a shit about human life and is fine with people who want to destroy it being on his administration. Would you trust someone like this with your life?
No I wouldn’t and don’t. And like I said, electing a single harm reduction candidate to a single position in government isn’t going to fix things. I’d vote for him because I think he can make things a bit less desperate for the working class in NYC, and maybe even drum up broader support for left-populism. And given the position he is going for (Mayor of NYC and not Secretary of State), I understand the compromise he is making. even if I don’t like it.
Like I said, I think there is a case for harm reduction with Mamdani, especially when contrasted with his competitors. I don’t trust him with my life but I do have some trust and a bit of hope that we will not make it as difficult to exist and survive and organize for leftists and particularly those who are already marginalized by their identities.
Because why else would he be doing any of this instead of taking the easy route like Hakeem Jeffries and just getting in bed with AIPAC?
Getting in bed with AIPAC and being an open zionist leads to a loss in popularity given how many people understandably hate pissrael and open zionism now. Especially among what I am going to assume are his voting base (younger people).
And I don’t even understand the point of this question either?
If someone is willing to have genocidal fascist ethnonationalists in his administration, who are currently aiding and abetting a genocide, they are basically signalling to everyone that they don’t give a damn about the marginalized, the oppressed, the working class, or just human life in general really lets be honest.
There is no good reason for having genocidal fascists in your government, period. They belong in jail or in the ground.
My point is, that if this person can’t for whatever insufficient reason take a hardline stance against a genocide that their country is basically committing and its supporters, then what makes you think they can take a principled stand for anything else?
I think AOC cares a lot about the working class too
Her numerous betrayals say otherwise.
I’d vote for him because I think he can make things a bit less desperate for the working class in NYC, and maybe even drum up broader support for left-populism.
- If you as a leftist candidate can’t take a firm stand against genocide then you are not going to “make things a bit less desperate for the working class” anywhere. Its bare minimum stuff. Its like saying a computer that can’t even turn on for more than 5 seconds is capable of running Cyberpunk 2077.
- The role of people like him, social democrats, is to weaken left-populist movements so they won’t be as much of a danger to the bourgeois. History has shown this time and time again. Watch how any left-populist momentum just fades into liberalism and fascism when he either fails to gain office or gains office but fails to deliver on his promises.
He is not the harm reduction candidate, he is the harm candidate.
I don’t trust him with my life but I do have some trust and a bit of hope that we will not make it as difficult to exist and survive and organize for leftists and particularly those who are already marginalized by their identities.
Well he’s basically just given a big middle finger to any Pro-Palestine organization in NYC because now he will have violent genocidal ethnonationalists in his administration who are going to be hellbent at using whatever means necessary to suppress any and all dissent against the zionist entity. A few bad apples spoil the bunch. They will also probably try their best to use their positions of power to make life hell for Muslims and Palestinians too.
And this is especially bad because america, as the imperialist world superpower, is the number 1 blood vessel to its cancerous zionist military base. Therefore, any action to disrupt and prevent this in america will be even more effective than anywhere else. And now mamdani has gone ahead and said he will put exactly the type of fascist crooks who don’t want the genocide to end into positions of power.
Also don’t you think its a bit fucked up to say you’d vote for a guy who said he will have genocidal maniacs in his administration, in a country currently committing the genocide they support, just because he promises to support the working class? Wasn’t that kinda like the nazi party’s whole thing?
“oh you know I’m fine with genocide but vote for me because i will help the german worker”Tbh we don’t even need to go back to the nazis because for fucks sake there is a genocide against the Palestinian people at the moment that needs to desperately be stopped. Lives are being cruelly destroyed en masse by the zionist entity and its western backers (primarily america) as you are reading this. Why would you ever want to vote for someone who says that he will have fascist scum in his administration who are currently aiding and abetting this fucking demonic act of genocide, just because he pinky promises to help the working class of NYC? I mean come the fuck on, really? Is this where we are at?
You should read the other comment left under the comment you replied to *by queermunist. Really sums everything up well.
harm reduction candidate
i don’t even see him as a harm reduction candidate. they use that phrase to position somebody running against republicans who has nothing good to offer so they fall on “well at least we’re not those other guys”. Mamdani, for all his embarrassment and self-own, is still promising something positive for new yorkers rather than running on not being Silwa or not being Cuomo the way e.g. Biden ran on not being Trump.
I think hexbear’s rigid purity (which is why I’m here tbh) makes it vulnerable to this kind common of smear work. It’s very easy to keep asking someone questions over and over until you have things that can be taken the wrong way and used to smear them with at least some portion of their base. - this is a common media tactic you need to immunise yourself against. The entire point is to turn away the most pure parts of the base.
I mean, whatever, it’s electoralism, by our nature we have little interest in it; but saying “I’ll have Zionists working for me” in one of the most Jewish places in the world is a factual statement, not necessarily and ideological one. It simply doesn’t mean that Mamdani being voted in is a bad thing. And it’s certainly not something to be upset about?
We have high standards, but regardless of what we think, he’s a leftist pipeline whether he succeeds or whether he fails, similar to Bernie. Ideally, he shifts the bounds of what it’s possible to think/support in the US leftwards a little.
My point, really, is don’t let perfect be the enemy of good, especially when it’s something we’re not invested in.
Give me the strength to endure what I can’t change, the courage to change what I can change, and the wisdom to know the difference.
He’s a pipeline, definitely. A left to right pipeline. Getting leftists engaged and then getting them to defend Zionism is not moving anyone left, but it is definitely moving people right
You believe that Mamdani, an actual socialist, is running to move people to the right? I think it’s very clear the actual political right feels the opposite. I also think it’s clear from his previous statements that he’s not a Zionist, nor is he seeking to move people that way. This is someone who said he’d turn Netanyahu over to the ICC.
Mamdani, an actual socialist,
do words have any meaning to you at all?
public criticisms of the inherent failures of entryism are a (very small, this forum is niche af and not getting less so) part of that pipeline, though. without that criticism, the absorption of these types of candidates just demoralizes people into apolitical inaction or makes them think democrats are the best they’re gonna get. “democrats inherently suck and here’s why, focus on other types of political action” isn’t the same as “Zohran isn’t a harm reduction candidate vs Cuomo, don’t vote for him if you live in NYC”
is he doing entryism? is he trying to change the party nationally or is he trying to win one office? All the capitulations are worse for not being necessary in any way electorally.
is he doing entryism? is he trying to change the party nationally or is he trying to win one office?
beats me
that’s one to ask the NYC DSA folks. i assume they run these candidates in the hopes of changing the Democrats from within but i’m not in that org.All the capitulations are worse for not being necessary in any way electorally.
agree 100%
i think there’s a lot of theory of mind errors ITT and in hexbear’s discussions on a mayoral election in general, but maybe i’m doing one myself with my understanding that the DSA could never tea party the democrats so I don’t expect them to be trying. if they don’t understand it’s an impossible task maybe they would try.
DSA could never tea party the democrats so I don’t expect them to be trying
My areas chapter still argues about this. It is not a resolved question in the DSA at all. I still see people saying we need democrat coalitions.
It’s currently the central struggle I’ve seen when looking at discussions in the national board.
Hell, I see some arguing Marxist-Leninist is a failed experiment that is either less useful or equally as ineffective as social democracy.
I saw someone post on the DSA national forum that the failures of DSA’s left is that they don’t recognize this is a Social Democracy movement today, that basically saw responses split down the middle.
I’ve seen people say this campaign working is proof that entryism works and can be used for the socialist movement.
https://www.socialistmajority.com/theagitator/new-york-democrats-want-socialism
Over the last year, The Agitator has published numerous pieces arguing for recommitting to the strategy of Bernie’s 2016 campaign to remain within the struggle on the Democratic party ballot line, which is a tactic of democratic socialists dating back to the 60s in fighting within the Democratic party. That felt more relevant during the Biden era, when parts of DSA felt like running away from the Democratic Party was the best option to pledge a new way forward. Yet, the primary victory of Mamdani puts us back in the same place of fighting it out against liberals and everyone to their right. The victory forced national media to suddenly grapple again with the idea of socialism within the Democratic Party
https://www.socialistmajority.com/theagitator/zohran-coalition-govern
This is the caucus with the largest sway in NYC DSA, and a major playing in shaping its ideological tendency at a national level. Attempting to tea party the democrats is very much on the table.
Some of the “mind reading” is just people trying not to dox themselves.
i’m fairly positive the right wing of the org (who hold the most sway in NYC) do think they can tea party the democrats, when i said “beats me” it was more that I have no idea what their strategy around Zohran, specifically, is and don’t want to speak out of turn on shit I have zero firsthand knowledge of. I did also live in Brooklyn from the late 2010s - early 2020s before leaving for cheaper pastures and felt out the DSA before deciding against it, the more radical people I met there lamented how difficult it was to get non-electoral work off the ground, the rest seemed extremely gung ho about electing the Right Democrats. things might have changed since then, anecdotes gonna anecdote, etc, so anyone closer to this stuff can feel free to chime in and correct me if i’m off base at all.
if I didn’t think this were a core part of their strategy that’s ineffective I probably would just butt out of these convos, but for whatever marginal value pointing people toward other possibilities on the internet has - eh, i decide to post
There is a difference in knowing something and saying it, especially as a part of a political platform.
I may know simply by virtue of being in America, I’ll have interacted with a Nazi as a factual matter. That is different than me saying, “Yeah, I’ll interact with Nazis,” which is different than propagandizing the fact I’ll interact with Nazis.
Is the media repeatedly going to attack this angle? Yes. It’s why when I saw the NYT article where the author alleges he doesn’t think Zohran is anti-zionist I ignored it as a nothing-burger. Getting caught up doing it yourself demonstrates this is a massive fucking misstep at best.
Do you think he’d make the same misstep if they repeatedly grilled him on whether he’d work with Klansmen? Or if they used the word Nazi or Nazi sympathsizers? I double he’s planning on grilling his sanitation workers on what they think about white genocide and replacement or asking them their opinions on the Jewish question either. But we would still look at him sideways if he said, “I’ll have white supremacists working for me,” in this hellhole of a nation.
I’ve argued with XHS about his stance on Zohran, them saying this is a result of us rawdogging a cactus due to an inability for us to form any type of militant front is fucking Evergreen.
He is just triangulating and moving right to gain greater proximity to DNC establishment types, people he is now having call shots on his campaign. This is not someone hiding their power level, these are not even remotely clever answers from someone being savvy. It is a consistent rightward rebranding per the bourgeois liberal electoralist charade.
Also, we have high standards? This is genocide and it is very fucking unpopular. If there is a pipeline here, it is to capture outrage and mollify it into status quo liberalism. DSA is not organized and it has no education program. It’s all just fucking around and pinning hopes on one guy not being more self-interested than principled and competent, and the electoralist “wing”, such as it is, is allergic to both of those things.
Don’t you know? Not wanting someone to say they’d collaborate with Nazis, sometimes knowingly, is purity testing.
They’re National Socialists and we need left unity!
/iwanttoenditalldealingwiththesepeople
Folks really showing their liberalism with their unwavering belief in the secret principled leftism of the guy pulling the rug out from under them in the exact same way 5 other identical guys have done every couple years.
Nobody on hexbear should be surprised that a “left” organization with zero principled discipline doesn’t produce principled campaigns with discipline. Instead, it produces an endless litany of self-interested climbers doing milquetoast liberal reformism at best, as moneyed interests dominate their campaigns.
I mean, I advocated for wait and see because I knew from the get go they weren’t going to listen to all the people dogpiling them. I see what WildWeezing420 meant though when they said their big issue is older members still falling for the same trick. Most people I know that seemed hype for him in my age bracket (early 20s) weren’t paying enough attention to Bernie and AOC to get why it happened and no one reads theory (especially lenin!) so I kinda ignored it. Seeing people justify the need to say he’d collaborate with Nazis as some 4D chess has rattled me. Some of the people I’ve seen pulling this bullshit have been organizing longer than I’ve used two digits for my age.
I just keep telling people that without discipline you’re just leaving “candidates” to face up against the (strong) forces of liberalism with no counterweight. This means opportunists will happily take your free labor for unserious (or worse) campaigns and even well-meaning people will be prone to crumpling against media forces alone, and that’s before the cops start routinely harassing you or protecting the fashy vigilantes that keep showing up to your house.
When I say this it gets decent upbears but the electoralists never engage. I think the concept of discipline must actually threaten them on some personal level, like they don’t want to think about how much of their own time they are potentially wasting.
It’s because that discipline would then also be applied to them as well. Militancy is only fun when you’re already done the work and have leverage. Risking your job to form a union isn’t. It’s not glamorous sitting there talking to your coworkers about how collective bargaining gives you leverage.
If you were in NYC DSA what would your proposal be to create discipline?
It’s all just fucking around and pinning hopes on one guy not being more self-interested than principled and competent, and the electoralist “wing”, such as it is, is allergic to both of those things.
Also this was funny timing:
That is a good point. False hope, like gambling, often emerges from not having a strong embedding in something real that is paying off. Indulging the fantasy instead of confronting the reality.
The reason that Americans resort to so much adventurism is the same reason why so many pin hopes on bourgeois politicians that owe them nothing: no other political outlet for hope. They are not organized, they are not active.
The slot machines will eventually reward you with electoral Sankara if you just sit there long enough.
The state the left is in is embarrassing. The fact we’re at baby-steps of “proving a socialist mayor can run a city while making democrats look rightwing” is a terrible state of affairs, but we should probably play that hand. I don’t think he’ll have the effective power to purge every zionist in new yorks affairs.
I think it’s better to shake hands with a zionist for a while before personally cutting their throat at a later date than to remain powerless.
I don’t think he’ll have the effective power to purge every zionist in new yorks affairs.
Again, I’m not even saying that much is the ask! But if we’re arguing optics, which is the only argument anyone makes in defense of the failures of his entryism attempt, he has repeatedly shown a willingness and savviness to stay on message and dodge the damn question.
If we’re arguing that he needs to fear almighty Zion because we’re too weak to face them, I wanna see him go apologize like he apologized to the pigs. No half measures.
The only hopes I have from this campaign is primarily staked on the hardening of his base that will come about when this goes sideways, again, because entryism is a failed tactic, and hoping the number hardened outweigh those that fall into nihilistic doomerism. Hopefully there are enough people that are spared from worsening conditions that it outweighs the harm and deaths done by our pathetic attempts at international solidarity.
I also hope people are afforded some respite, and that some are simply hardened.
I agree that entryism is a failed tactic, but engaging in the arena is a must, otherwise you’re simply conceding power while still remaining a target.
I agree you must engage in the arena, if not simply for the ability to engage with the masses. I’m not arguing against strategic electoralism in that sense.
he’s a leftist pipeline whether he succeeds or whether he fails
can someone prove to me that pipelines actually exist, and are not just trying to make dems look better / more left / reformable etc.
IME the people you recruit will reflect the method of recruitment. Protests, encampments, unions, music, doorknocking, posting… will primarily bring in the type of people who are interested in that kind of activity.
If a lot of people become engaged in one thing, some of them won’t like it and they might meet others who’d prefer to do something else and organically split off into something else. Sometimes people who meet organizing as tenants form an art collective, but tenant organizing isn’t a “pipeline” to art collectives.
It is possible to intentionally bring people in through one kind of activity and provide the conditions such that many of them will see the wisdom in moving on to another kind of activity that would be more useful. It’s even possible to use the fact that you know the intake activity is doomed to fail as a way to hurry people along.
But it will only happen in any substantial way with A Plan. Not organically. Not by sort of vaguely having information around.
You need to have a plan of inoculation that explains what’s happening and why, and help the new people to see how power could be better built and wielded. From the beginning, you are talking about other possibilities and maybe even start setting those things up. So that when the original actions end as predicted, you don’t look like a big Loser. “OK, that didn’t work. On to the next thing!” and everyone already knows what the next thing is. Otherwise, some people will fall off thinking “This is stupid there’s no point” and some will get stuck in the cycle of tinkering trying to get it perfect next time.
The fact that almost a decade after Bernie was first ratfucked by the DNC, the American left still pins their hopes on a single mayoral candidate (in NYC of all places) tells you everything you need to know about this pipeline.
Bernie boasted one million strong volunteers during his 2020 primary campaign. You’d think that even after he got screwed again, it would have snowballed into a nationwide movement to run socialist mayor and city council candidates to take over the political machineries starting from the municipal level all across the country.
It’s almost amazing to see such energy dissipated into almost nothing right after Bernie conceded and failed to win a single concession, not even healthcare-related, at the height of Covid pandemic for the working class.
Next populist democrat is the one! 99% of
gamblersdemocratic socialists quit before hitting big!the American left still pins their hopes on a single mayoral candidate
what hopes? you’re revolutionary-jacketing. His policies would be a meaningful improvement in the lives of his constituents, which is exactly what you want from a candidate for mayor. Everything he’s said on geopolitics is an unforced error or Obama phone calls, and completely irrelevant to the job he’s applying for (which is why he should shut the fuck up and talk about $7 halal cart instead).
anecdotal, but a lot of my PSL comrades got re-engaged in politics b/c of Bernie (me included). but being in PSL, we’ve all moved past investing in Democrats as a winning strategy, and were radicalized further by his failure. how statistically significant are we vs. people who just got fully demoralized by politics, or even moved right? who knows, honestly - our org is growing a lot, but still relatively niche looking at the larger horizon of politics.
i do think it’s worth agitating around the failures of these socdem candidates though. and i’m not even telling people not to vote for Zohran if they live there (NYC), like sure he’s a genuine harm reduction candidate and voting is low effort, go for it, just manage your expectations and find areas of political work where this stuff isn’t a core part of the orgs strategy.
To a degree, I think the existence of Hexbear proves that pipelines exist.
Much of the original population of chapo/hexbear were people who were hyped for bernie 10 years ago before witnessing what electoral politics does to the left, and how even mild reforms got ratfucked. That’s why this thread exists - it’s the same visceral disgust that (I think) lead to the creation of this site.
but then again, in this thread we are still discussing the merit of electing democrats. it doesn’t seem that there was a broad shift leftward towards more radical/coherent politics.
We’re discussing the merits of whether it’s good leftism to say you’d work with Nazis too!
Hmmm, I think the question to ask here; 'If Mamdani doesn’t ask his hired people what are their thoughts on Zionism, then there’ll be Zionists." Hexbear is fervently anti-zionism, and I am too, and some people (I think anyway) are mad at how Zionists aren’t at least kept out of his administration by being anti-zionist everywhere including sanitation.
I mean, isn’t this why we have like those questions for joining here? Figure out if you’re fit to engage here with a left-wing perspective? Even if not necessarily all of us are theory-minded?
I mean, isn’t this why we have like those questions for joining here? Figure out if you’re fit to engage here with a left-wing perspective?
Clearly our screening process isn’t stringent enough, tbh. Source: every thread that mentions mamdani
He’s just one guy though, he can’t start that strong.
I’m from the UK, and I’d like to see a whole raft of strong measures passed, such as BDS becoming an enforced national law, companies that work with Israel barred from the UK, people that support the IDF slapped with terror charges, and many lobbyists/journalists being slapped with genocide charges… And that’s just if we’re given a little room to play around with pre-revolutionary politics, before concerning ourselves with what they actually deserve.
I don’t think it’s possible to implement good left policies without there also being a big enough, softer, leftist movement to give us space to operate - and while, of course, we’re going to object to the softer lefts views, it doesn’t mean their existence isn’t valuable to us as a pipeline and to shift peoples frame of reference leftwards.
Someone on this site called me a landlord when I equivocated their ‘why you should still vote for this guy’ stance to a lib telling me why I should overlook all of Kamala’s flaws and still ‘do the right thing’. Not gonna lie, every time Zohran opens his mouth I feel vindication.
those lesser evilists are still here, lurking. Waiting.
Badge of honor
it’s new york city that basically self selects for liberal zionists
Even in the 1940s American politicians had the sense to recruit Nazis into their political projects in secret. Zohran would be out there tweeting about how awesome Operation Paperclip is gonna be.
Every single time.
Typical American politician. Its turning out his convictions are as weak as his bench press
Astute observation, Vegeta, negative power levels on this one.
I was kind of hoping he’d at least get elected before pulling the rug. In any case hope he enjoys losing his activist base for the election.
what the actual fuck.
the fact that he is all like “not just liberal Zionists either! Likud stormtroopers are welcome here too!”
At the current rate of change, we’re 7 days from Zohran cackling like Dr. Frankenstein as he personally throws the switch to reanimate Meir Kahane.
