Some of the most effective and fervent leftist organizers I’ve ever met were former military members. Most of these guys were kids from underprivileged and undereducated communities when they joined the military and has never been introduced to concepts like class consciousness untill after the military used and abused them.
Pretty much every effective militant revolution in history were founded or led by a group of former military members. If we cannot accept that people can and will change their minds when exposed to the truth, then what is the point of leftist organizing in the first place?
Leftist claiming to be revolutionaries who then reject the idea that people can change is oxymoronic and counterrevolutionary. Leftists are converted not created, and we cannot afford to reject the willing, able, and capable. Do they have a debt to society? Yes, but they often know this better than anyone, and will work harder than most to pay it off.
Ahh yes, because we can’t comment about a specific comment in a thread without vicariously making a comment about the original post? Do you think people lack the required nuance or the reading comprehension that they would make the assumption I’m making a statement supporting white supremacy?
I’m not white, my family isn’t even from a western nation. I swear, this is the one of the worst instances when it comes to people whitesplaining
to poc what white supremacy is.
I’m not American and I don’t live in America. The leftist revolution where I live will involve going to war with America and Americans. I’m not against all military members, I am against American military members. I hate America and the American military for what they did to Iraq. I will never have solidarity with the people thatremovedd and pillaged the Iraqi side of my family. I hate all the people who were a part of it and I hope they all burn in hell forever. I don’t care if they “change”, I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.
I’m not American and I don’t live in America. The leftist revolution where I live will involve going to war with America and Americans. I’m not against all military members, I am against American military members.
Right, but blind nationalist based hate for someone who also disagrees and fights against empiricists after a realization of class consciousness makes no sense. Class solidarity transcends nationalist sentiment.
I don’t care if they “change”, I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.
Eh, I guess we just ideologically disagree with each other. My family had to immigrate after America ravaged and occupied their land, and I don’t equate all American citizens with the crimes of the nation. But I guess everyone deals with their pain differently.
I remember someone mentioning once that most US military are from middle class/petit bourgeois backgrounds and this has been the case for a while.
Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.
Furthermore its not really about people not being able to change and become less shit in general per se, its just that those guys are as bad on the same level as IDF who genocide Palestinians and/or nazis who genocided the slavs. Like especially for the platner piece of shit. You can’t just proudly wear being a fascist accessory to genocide on your chest, literally in this case.
remember someone mentioning once that most US military are from middle class/petit bourgeois backgrounds and this has been the case for a while.
That’s a marketing metric the military likes to brag about… But it’s a bit misleading. They say 60% come from a middle class and 20% from below middle class… However, they consider any household with an income from 38k -86k is middle class, which is a bit of a spread.
Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.
I mean that’s just kinda ahistorical? Most of the higher up military in the Soviet Republic also served the Tsar. Was Georgy Zhukov not communist enough for us? What about Hugo Chavez?
Like especially for the platner piece of shit. You can’t just proudly wear being a fascist accessory to genocide on your chest, literally in this case.
My rebuttal and defense was against the general rejection of all military members, not any specific one. Obviously there needs to be context and nuance when evaluating individual character and whether or not someone has turned a new leaf.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters (who were arguably less genocidal than the usa).
I don’t have much experience with small leftist orgs in the imperial core but I’d think imagine its both good security and basic solidarity with the people america genocides to not have fascist soldiers who have been probably indoctrinated by deed and brainwashing anywhere near positions of leadership in a small leftist org at the stage of struggle that does not require armed combat.
general rejection of all military members
Its an expression of rightful disdain at one of the world’s worst fascist militaries who have never stopped committing genocide from the founding of their settler colony till now. Many people outside of america and its allies hate the us military to hell because the us military is often pointing guns at them, just like how everyone hates cops within the imperial core. They are the west’s occupation force for the third world. For many, the reality is that they are a genocidal force to be fought off.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters (who were arguably less genocidal than the usa)
I really don’t know about the Tsar being less genocidal, like the dude got pulled up a river by slaves trudging through hip deep mud with ropes attached to their fucking foreheads. If he had the resources America had the world would be fundamentally worse than it is now purely because the landowner class is more depraved and reactionary than the bourgeoisie
If anything, the Tsar is about as genocidal as the confederacy, which I think most can agree is far worse than the USA at the time.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
(who were arguably less genocidal than the usa)
I mean not to demean the extent of American war crimes… However, the Russian imperial empire had just committed the Circassian genocide a couple decades before the revolution.
good security and basic solidarity with the people america genocides to not have fascist soldiers who have been probably indoctrinated by deed and brainwashing anywhere near positions of leadership in a small leftist org at the stage of struggle that does not require armed combat.
How do you think opsec is learned in the first place? I’m not saying to befriend an unapologetic rabid SS soldier. I’m saying there are plenty of people who are disenfranchised by the military who go on to train and lead revolutionary forces.
Its an expression of rightful disdain at one of the world’s worst fascist militaries who have never stopped committing genocide from the founding of their settler colony till now.
You can still disdain the military without disdaining former soldiers who learn class consciousness and now also disdain the military.
Many people outside of america and its allies hate the us military to hell because the us military is often pointing guns at them
Yes…I know. My mother had to flee her country because the US installed a puppet dictatorship and she participated in a student uprising in the 80s. My grandfather had to hide in a hole for 2 years to evade US forces who were forcing inscription. We’ve lost communication to the majority of my family because the US continues to occupy half of my homeland.
If there is a revolution in the imperial core, you can guarantee that former US military will be involved. I’d rather there be a successful revolution than hold a grudge based on the choices people were forced into or chose out of ignorance when they were still teenagers.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
I can literally cite two (recently) living examples of this: Mike Prysner and Aaron Bushnell.
One gave up a military career entirely after being deployed to Iraq once and dedicates his life to anti-war/ anti-imperialist activism to the point that he literally gatecrashes conventions that host his former commander-in-chief Bush Jr. to call him a mass murdering war criminal right in his face.
The other, was an active US soldier who became disillusioned with the Imperialist war machine after seeing the US help Israel carry out a livestreamed genocide for over a year, so much so that he wrote a manifesto disavowing his military associates and condemning the entire imperialist system and everyone that supports it, and shortly after decided to (regretfully) self-immolate in front of the Israeli embassy.
That in my opinion, should be the standard that all potential revolutionaries in the US military should follow. And DEFINITELY NOT someone like Graham Platner who hasn’t done a smidgen of what the former soldiers I just mentioned have done.
I can literally cite two (recently) living examples of this: Mike Prysner and Aaron Bushnell
I would say these are examples of soldiers we are giving an opportunity to by appreciating their work and sacrifice. We are not dismissing their contributions by rote just because of their former affiliations.
And DEFINITELY NOT someone like Graham Platner who hasn’t done a smidgen of what the former soldiers I just mentioned have done.
Again, nothing I’ve written has been in the defense of Graham Planter. I’m just rebutting the claim that all former US soldiers should be held in absolute disdain.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
“Opportunity” is not the same thing as “being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Zhukov and Chavez had to earn a lot of trust with their lives on the line in combat to get to where they were, especially Zhukov.
I mean not to demean the extent of American war crimes… However
A few decades before that the americans had already ethnically cleansed north america. The russian empire was rightfully destroyed by the Bolsheviks while america still persists. Point being that american soldiers as part of a settler colonial ethnosupremacist anti communist military force are heavily indoctrinated to have deeply held reactionary beliefs. You dont have people like that anywhere near leadership of a communist org. Especially small ones that aren’t focused on combat at the moment. Why do you have to have former fascist shock troopers leading a workers organization that is meant to fight for the very working class who the leader has oppressed and marginalized? Why should workers have to rely on their oppressors as the rightful figureheads of their liberation?
I’m saying there are plenty of people who are disenfranchised by the military who go on to train and lead revolutionary forces
How about learning from the people who the us military lost against and/or who have experience fighting them. Veterans can act as trainers but they shouldn’t be let near leadership positions for the same reason you don’t want “former neo nazis” in positions of leadership either.
You can still disdain the military without disdaining former soldiers who learn class consciousness and now also disdain the military.
Yeah but it’s fine not to especially for those who are oppressed by the us military. And for good reason. Look at how the former navyman itt reacted earlier to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the genocidal us military. Not saying he can’t change for the better, he should, it’s just that he’s one of the most politically advanced amongst them.
If there is a revolution in the imperial core, you can guarantee that former US military will be involved.
Yes as the counterrevolutionary fascist paramilitary sent to kill the revolutionaries.
I’d rather there be a successful revolution
Surely a successful revolution would be possible without having “former nazis” in charge.
Opportunity" is not the same thing as “being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Zhukov and Chavez had to earn a lot of trust with their lives on the line in combat to get to where they were, especially Zhukov.
And the first step to do that is by accepting they could be of service to the cause despite their prior affiliation.
Also "“being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Is your conditional, not mine.
How about learning from the people who the us military lost against and/or who have experience fighting them. Veterans can act as trainers but they shouldn’t be let near leadership positions for the same reason you don’t want “former neo nazis” in positions of leadership either.
Well, most of the time revolutions happen locally and the people who beat the US military are located across the globe?
Also trainers are leaders? I don’t know why you are nit picking at the use of leadership, that’s your claim and has nothing to do with my original argument.
Yes as the counterrevolutionary fascist paramilitary sent to kill the revolutionaries
Lol, I’m not saying there won’t be ex military counter revolutionary forces. But what leads you to believe there won’t be ex military revolutionary forces?
Surely a successful revolution would be possible without having “former nazis” in charge.
Can you give me any examples of successful revolutions that are made up of revolutionary fighters completely devoid of any combat experience? You can’t just pick up a rifle with your buds and stand against a trained fire team.
Some of the most effective and fervent leftist organizers I’ve ever met were former military members. Most of these guys were kids from underprivileged and undereducated communities when they joined the military and has never been introduced to concepts like class consciousness untill after the military used and abused them.
Pretty much every effective militant revolution in history were founded or led by a group of former military members. If we cannot accept that people can and will change their minds when exposed to the truth, then what is the point of leftist organizing in the first place?
Leftist claiming to be revolutionaries who then reject the idea that people can change is oxymoronic and counterrevolutionary. Leftists are converted not created, and we cannot afford to reject the willing, able, and capable. Do they have a debt to society? Yes, but they often know this better than anyone, and will work harder than most to pay it off.
Why do you think saying this “people can change” speech under a post about a USAmerican white supremacist Nazi makes your point more credible.
I don’t disagree with you on a fundamental level, but is this something you really want to have said here?
Ahh yes, because we can’t comment about a specific comment in a thread without vicariously making a comment about the original post? Do you think people lack the required nuance or the reading comprehension that they would make the assumption I’m making a statement supporting white supremacy?
I’m not white, my family isn’t even from a western nation. I swear, this is the one of the worst instances when it comes to people whitesplaining to poc what white supremacy is.
I’m not American and I don’t live in America. The leftist revolution where I live will involve going to war with America and Americans. I’m not against all military members, I am against American military members. I hate America and the American military for what they did to Iraq. I will never have solidarity with the people thatremovedd and pillaged the Iraqi side of my family. I hate all the people who were a part of it and I hope they all burn in hell forever. I don’t care if they “change”, I don’t believe that any Americans living in the imperial core will ever cast away their labor aristocracy to become leftists. Fuck them forever.
Right, but blind nationalist based hate for someone who also disagrees and fights against empiricists after a realization of class consciousness makes no sense. Class solidarity transcends nationalist sentiment.
Eh, I guess we just ideologically disagree with each other. My family had to immigrate after America ravaged and occupied their land, and I don’t equate all American citizens with the crimes of the nation. But I guess everyone deals with their pain differently.
Did you mean imperialists?
Haha, yeah. Combo of Auto correct and English being my second language.
Cool, no problem, thanks for confirming.
I remember someone mentioning once that most US military are from middle class/petit bourgeois backgrounds and this has been the case for a while.
Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh.
Furthermore its not really about people not being able to change and become less shit in general per se, its just that those guys are as bad on the same level as IDF who genocide Palestinians and/or nazis who genocided the slavs. Like especially for the platner piece of shit. You can’t just proudly wear being a fascist accessory to genocide on your chest, literally in this case.
I specifically remember a Maoist standard English article called “the myth of the soldiertariet” that investigated the data, but I can’t find it now
let me know if you find it, that sounds rad
Check @nondiagetic’s reply! They found it
It’s seared into my brain because it was so funny, but I’m only getting settlers right now. I’ll keep searching
That’s a marketing metric the military likes to brag about… But it’s a bit misleading. They say 60% come from a middle class and 20% from below middle class… However, they consider any household with an income from 38k -86k is middle class, which is a bit of a spread.
I mean that’s just kinda ahistorical? Most of the higher up military in the Soviet Republic also served the Tsar. Was Georgy Zhukov not communist enough for us? What about Hugo Chavez?
My rebuttal and defense was against the general rejection of all military members, not any specific one. Obviously there needs to be context and nuance when evaluating individual character and whether or not someone has turned a new leaf.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters (who were arguably less genocidal than the usa).
I don’t have much experience with small leftist orgs in the imperial core but I’d think imagine its both good security and basic solidarity with the people america genocides to not have fascist soldiers who have been probably indoctrinated by deed and brainwashing anywhere near positions of leadership in a small leftist org at the stage of struggle that does not require armed combat.
Its an expression of rightful disdain at one of the world’s worst fascist militaries who have never stopped committing genocide from the founding of their settler colony till now. Many people outside of america and its allies hate the us military to hell because the us military is often pointing guns at them, just like how everyone hates cops within the imperial core. They are the west’s occupation force for the third world. For many, the reality is that they are a genocidal force to be fought off.
I really don’t know about the Tsar being less genocidal, like the dude got pulled up a river by slaves trudging through hip deep mud with ropes attached to their fucking foreheads. If he had the resources America had the world would be fundamentally worse than it is now purely because the landowner class is more depraved and reactionary than the bourgeoisie
If anything, the Tsar is about as genocidal as the confederacy, which I think most can agree is far worse than the USA at the time.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
I mean not to demean the extent of American war crimes… However, the Russian imperial empire had just committed the Circassian genocide a couple decades before the revolution.
How do you think opsec is learned in the first place? I’m not saying to befriend an unapologetic rabid SS soldier. I’m saying there are plenty of people who are disenfranchised by the military who go on to train and lead revolutionary forces.
You can still disdain the military without disdaining former soldiers who learn class consciousness and now also disdain the military.
Yes…I know. My mother had to flee her country because the US installed a puppet dictatorship and she participated in a student uprising in the 80s. My grandfather had to hide in a hole for 2 years to evade US forces who were forcing inscription. We’ve lost communication to the majority of my family because the US continues to occupy half of my homeland.
If there is a revolution in the imperial core, you can guarantee that former US military will be involved. I’d rather there be a successful revolution than hold a grudge based on the choices people were forced into or chose out of ignorance when they were still teenagers.
I can literally cite two (recently) living examples of this: Mike Prysner and Aaron Bushnell.
One gave up a military career entirely after being deployed to Iraq once and dedicates his life to anti-war/ anti-imperialist activism to the point that he literally gatecrashes conventions that host his former commander-in-chief Bush Jr. to call him a mass murdering war criminal right in his face.
The other, was an active US soldier who became disillusioned with the Imperialist war machine after seeing the US help Israel carry out a livestreamed genocide for over a year, so much so that he wrote a manifesto disavowing his military associates and condemning the entire imperialist system and everyone that supports it, and shortly after decided to (regretfully) self-immolate in front of the Israeli embassy.
That in my opinion, should be the standard that all potential revolutionaries in the US military should follow. And DEFINITELY NOT someone like Graham Platner who hasn’t done a smidgen of what the former soldiers I just mentioned have done.
I would say these are examples of soldiers we are giving an opportunity to by appreciating their work and sacrifice. We are not dismissing their contributions by rote just because of their former affiliations.
Again, nothing I’ve written has been in the defense of Graham Planter. I’m just rebutting the claim that all former US soldiers should be held in absolute disdain.
“Opportunity” is not the same thing as “being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Zhukov and Chavez had to earn a lot of trust with their lives on the line in combat to get to where they were, especially Zhukov.
A few decades before that the americans had already ethnically cleansed north america. The russian empire was rightfully destroyed by the Bolsheviks while america still persists. Point being that american soldiers as part of a settler colonial ethnosupremacist anti communist military force are heavily indoctrinated to have deeply held reactionary beliefs. You dont have people like that anywhere near leadership of a communist org. Especially small ones that aren’t focused on combat at the moment. Why do you have to have former fascist shock troopers leading a workers organization that is meant to fight for the very working class who the leader has oppressed and marginalized? Why should workers have to rely on their oppressors as the rightful figureheads of their liberation?
How about learning from the people who the us military lost against and/or who have experience fighting them. Veterans can act as trainers but they shouldn’t be let near leadership positions for the same reason you don’t want “former neo nazis” in positions of leadership either.
Yeah but it’s fine not to especially for those who are oppressed by the us military. And for good reason. Look at how the former navyman itt reacted earlier to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the genocidal us military. Not saying he can’t change for the better, he should, it’s just that he’s one of the most politically advanced amongst them.
Yes as the counterrevolutionary fascist paramilitary sent to kill the revolutionaries.
Surely a successful revolution would be possible without having “former nazis” in charge.
And the first step to do that is by accepting they could be of service to the cause despite their prior affiliation.
Also "“being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required”. Is your conditional, not mine.
Well, most of the time revolutions happen locally and the people who beat the US military are located across the globe?
Also trainers are leaders? I don’t know why you are nit picking at the use of leadership, that’s your claim and has nothing to do with my original argument.
Lol, I’m not saying there won’t be ex military counter revolutionary forces. But what leads you to believe there won’t be ex military revolutionary forces?
Can you give me any examples of successful revolutions that are made up of revolutionary fighters completely devoid of any combat experience? You can’t just pick up a rifle with your buds and stand against a trained fire team.