Oh god my daily reminder of why I loathe western people opinions.
To all you fucking reddit atheists
Atheism without class struggle is just white supremacy
Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god.
I’m not sure where you’re getting all this other weird baggage
Comments section validating my hatred for France.
This is G *rmany erasure
The fact that this comment section is full of “removed by mods” but still has so much racist nonsense… this topic really makes the scratched liberals come out of the woodwork.
Please report those comments so we can get to them.
The amount of Reddit Atheists showing up here who would wish China was actually putting Uyghur Muslims in extermination camps is off the charts.
In my view, one isn’t really an atheist if they are a liberal (or conservative, but I repeat myself) as it is effectively another religion, with Capital as it’s “god”, it is kind of like those liberals that call themselves “socialist” and support controlled opposition, compatible “leftist”, and friend of epstein, bernie sanders.
Edit: for some reason I can’t see the rest of the comments while logged in, so I’ll put it here: I think a more accurate and inclusive phrase would be “freedom of religion or atheism”, as it would be shitty if one had to declare some religion or another without just “none” as an option.
Edit: Edit: From the rest of this thread I think people may be confused, you cannot just “ban” the “opiate of the masses”, as long as people are in pain they will seek a painkiller, and denying it to them just turns those very people against you, if the world becomes your enemy you have little chance. To reach synthesis you must collapse the contradiction by combining elements of thesis and anti-thesis in such a manor that it favors the non toxic elements of both and becomes stable.
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Except that’s not how this work. What you described is specifically for representatives of the state (the french nation does not have a religion and it’s representatives should not show theirs either) the citizens are free to do whatever they want and be as visibly religious as they want. Now, theright (including wauquiez) have a problem with Muslims having the same rights as the others but that’s another story
If Iran said they were providing “freedom from Atheism” everyone would realize how incredibly stupid this sounds
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These laws exist for colonialist purposes so you couldn’t be more wrong.
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Have you ever seen “atheist” and “sceptic” community and their talking heads?
This, and it doesn’t have any symbols or practices associated with it in the first place, so what would one even ban? Atheism isn’t a religion, it’s the lack thereof.
Edit: Context, because a mod banned the person above for the laughable reason of “Reddit Atheism”. IIRC, The comment was something like:
Atheism is not the one oppressing and indoctrinating people
How anyone could take offense to this is beyond me. Do we genuinely support religions in this community? And on an ML instance no less? It seems like religion really is the opiate of the masses…
Marxism does not mean blanket hostility towards religion in all situations
That is true and isn’t what I would support, but the comment above wasn’t blanket hostility, not in this context anyway. Pointing out the often prevalent cases of religion being used as a tool of oppression and that it’s all based on indoctrination is absolutely valid when discussing the motivation for France’s measures. You can of course disagree with it and with the measures discussed here, independently of each other even, but if this is already “blanket hostility” to some people, they should stop viewing religions through rose-colored glasses. I mean, do you genuinely believe that religions are NOT used for this purpose at all? I have a hard time believing that any actual Marxist would see religions uncritically, even with the understanding of them being the way they are as the result of material conditions, and even less so as Marxists-Leninists if one has actually read Lenin’s “Socialism and Religion”.
And even if you were to consider it blanket hostility, why would this be worthy of a ban and comment removal instead of simply engaging with the comment in an intellectually honest way and possibly providing the commenter a different perspective?
You do realize that atheism is an ideology like any other, prone to the same manipulations?
And that the issue taken here is weaponisation of said atheism by bourgeoise, wielded by rabid libs against whomever empire deems an enemy, uncritically due to internalized chauvinism?
And that you can’t argue that republic “kill all algerians” of france is suddenly having safety and prosperity of muslim women in mind, let alone that they’e realizing whatever piss dreams of seculairity they have?
It seems like religion really is the opiate of the masses…
Marx did not consider illterates who conviced themselves they could read…
Umm so what atheist garmets would they be banning in this case exactly?
Mandatory hair coverings for women “to protect them against the weather outside.”
Nowhere is any kind of hair covering mandatory because of atheism, nor to protect for the weather outside which wouldn’t be because of atheism in any case.
That would be pretty stupid, agreed.
Congratulations on creating a secular theocracy, Quebec and France. Really valuable contribution.
Don’t know about Quebec. But the “freedom from religion” French attitude is just being weaponised against Muslims at the moment. That Wauquiez is very close to far right.
Seriously. Do they ban Catholic priests, monks, and nuns from wearing their religious attire? Or, let me guess, is there some broad exemption for “tradition” or some such bullshit?
The ban is effective only for civil employees at work and such. So depending on where you live you can even see hijabs, priests in cassoks, and topless ladies suntanning at the same city park.
In 2019 Quebec passed a law prohibiting public workers who are in positions of authority from wearing religious symbols. The law violates the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, particularly rights around freedom of religion and expression. But there’s a fancy little mechanism called the “notwithstanding clause” that allows you to pass unconstitutional laws under some circumstances, which Quebec invoked and allowed the law to pass and withstand court challenges.
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When you create your utopia that ruthlessly purges all religion, do not be surprised when the definition of “religion” expands to politically unpopular things that have no relation at all to faith. Right wingers already call being pro-LGBT “a cult” or “a religion.”
“I want secularism but I still want overbearing authority figures telling people what to wear” is the silliest version of secularism.
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I agree that these measures are a bit over the top, but I don’t really get your points.
Which good parts of secularism do you think are missing here?
And “secular theocracy” is an oxymoron. Theocracies require the belief in at least one deity as a supreme ruling authority to guide the state, which is not the case at all here, completely the opposite even. So what makes you think that it’s a “secular theocracy”?
Which good parts of secularism do you think are missing here?
The part where you have enough social liberty that you don’t have government officials telling you how to dress.
And “secular theocracy” is an oxymoron. Theocracies require the belief in at least one deity as a supreme ruling authority to guide the state, which is not the case at all here, completely the opposite even. So what makes you think that it’s a “secular theocracy”?
Putting aside that ‘secular theocracy’ is wordplay making fun of their attempts to secularize in such a way that they take on features of a theocracy, such as dress codes. I don’t agree with your definition of theocracy. You could presumably have a Buddhist theocracy without any sort of belief in a supreme ruling deity.
Can and in fact have!
The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.
The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation–including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation–were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.”[21] Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet.[22]
The whole Parenti essay is fascinating https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
Buddhism is not a theology?
This is a concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheistic_religion
The part where you have enough social liberty that you don’t have government officials telling you how to dress.
That would be good indeed, but isn’t really an aspect of secularism.
‘secular theocracy’ is wordplay making fun of their attempts to secularize in such a way that they take on features of a theocracy, such as dress codes.
Fair point.
You could presumably have a Buddhist theocracy without any sort of belief in a supreme ruling deity.
I think that wouldn’t make it a theocracy, as it’s more of a philosophy or way of life rather than a belief in a higher being that has a strict set of rules that a state could enforce. But I don’t really know that much about buddhism, so I might be wrong.
That would be good indeed, but isn’t really an aspect of secularism.
I would say it’s an aspect of secularism when done in a sane way.
I think that wouldn’t make it a theocracy, as it’s more of a philosophy or way of life rather than a belief in a higher being that has a strict set of rules that a state could enforce. But I don’t really know that much about buddhism, so I might be wrong.
Well, I would say that ultimately all theocracies are that. In my view there aren’t any deities, so all theocracies which claim to base their legitimacy on a supreme being are, well, wrong. They are really enforcers of cultural norms that just happen to have a belief in a particular deity as one of those norms.
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The framing of this suggests that this is only against women, men also have swimwear codes in France. It’s crazy
Looks like they have em in the USA too
This made me afraid for his shoes, but obv he took them off.
Come on now, they just wanna see Zohran without his clothes on! Now we can’t blame then for that…
Time to jail this repugnant dress code violator!
We don’t need to go that far. It’s not like he’s wearing a tan suit.
I bet this despicable elitist eats Dijon mustard on a regular basis!
Mandatory speedo?
Correct, shorts are also banned. The same city tried to change that to but got shot down there too.
Since state and religion are separated, public pools cannot make an exception based on religion. France had fairly strict hygienic rules for public swimming pools, which prohibit loose fitting garments.
I can’t tell if you’re joking or not
It’s true. Some people wore surf shorts all day and didn’t change. So… That’s the current situation.
I’m not, this has nothing to do with women’s rights
Of course not it’s just Apartheid against Muslims. France tried doing this even for beaches. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/burkini-ban-france-overturned-1.3736823
Both men and women are required to cover their hair in pools?
In most public pools yes. Prevents hair from clogging filters. Or that is the official line.
Yeah, you don’t properly shower before a pool in France normaly. You change into your swiming gear, then shower (all gendered areas) with gear on, then pool. The swimming gear is suppose to keep the filth in, so only tight enough gear is allowed. In Sweden for example it is a bit opposite. Get naked, shower (gender separated areas), put on gear, pool. You have showered and washed your hair out, you are good to go.
…here in the states its like a before and after thing. We are allowed to take two showers lol
Until you’ve swum in a public pool that requires full body wash and shower, naked, you don’t realise the difference it makes to the chlorine amount required to keep the pool clean. Denmark has explicit instructions about where to wash, pre-soaped single use sponges that must be used, but hardly any chlorine in the pool water.
Humans are filthy, yo. I’d rather everyone cleans properly before I have share pool water with you.
And even then, I’ve been a competition swimmer and am from Denmark and our training slots were mostly in the evening after public access hours. The pools were filthy as fuck. And that’s with the higher hygiene standards here. People are just filthy animals.
Yeah, the issue here in France is that you absolutely can’t trust people to do the right thing. A lot of them would skirt the rules and not wash properly.
So when kids pee in the pool all the pee stays inside their pants I’m sure…
I guess they have not solved that one.
Mandatory underwater heat camera’s it is.
Seems they don’t want anyone wearing too much clothing in the pool.
there aren’t a lot of kinds of uh water clothes? ig? Still weird thing to put a rule on.
To be fair more clothes weigh you down and produce more drag and potential for entanglement so it would be fair for the lifeguards to not deal with that.
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You can see how mandating that a woman doesn’t wear a particular garment is a pretty poor example of a “women’s rights win”, right?
Yeah, forcing an effective ban on Muslim women swimming is a real victory. Wouldn’t want them to think you had respect for them as people or basic human decency, now would you?
/s
Brother, trying to ban things you don’t like doesn’t work. It just makes the world a worse place to live. This isn’t a win, it’s a loss. You accept people as they are and make the world safer for everyone, not fucking ban a bathing suit because you disagree with a religion.
Why would “muslim” women be singled out here unless there were some other aspect that you are intentionally trying to link to being muslim. Is there some kind of inherent quality of muslim women that require them to wear a particular style of swim garment that non-muslim women don’t wear?
Yeah, their religion you dense hippo. Congrats! You’ve learned that some things are haram. Like women showing their hair to men that aren’t family.
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It’s nothing to do with religion and everything to do with French pool hygiene. Atheist men are typically not allowed to wear baggy shorts for example, the only reason I own a few pairs of jammers.
No, it fucking isn’t. The burkini is made out of the same fabrics as all other swimwear. The amount of fabric doesn’t magically make it a hygiene issue. Stop spouting racist nonsense, my guy.
I hope you’re not stupid enough to actually buy the dumbest excuse in world history to enforce Apartheid against Muslims.
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