- cross-posted to:
- ghazi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
- cross-posted to:
- ghazi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
‘Nudify’ Apps That Use AI to ‘Undress’ Women in Photos Are Soaring in Popularity::It’s part of a worrying trend of non-consensual “deepfake” pornography being developed and distributed because of advances in artificial intelligence.
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Weirdos. Back in my day, we woild cut out a nude body from playboy and glue it on a picture of Kathleen Turner, and we did uphill both ways in the snow! Darn kids and their technology!
Direct image link (instead of a Google link): https://imgur.com/qFItKA9.jpg
Saving people a click:
Formatting example based on what I did above:
I remember being a dumb & horny kid and Photoshopping my crush’s face onto a porn photo. And even then I felt what I did was wrong and never did it again.
Post nut clarity can be truly eye opening
or closing depending where you get it
I feel like what you did and the reaction you had to what you did is common. And yet, I don’t feel like it’s harmful unless other people see it. But this conversation is about to leave men’s heads and end up in public discourse where I have no doubt it will create moral or ethical panic.
A lot of technology challenges around AI are old concerns about things that we’ve had access to for decades. It’s just easier to do this stuff now. I think it’s kind of pointless to stop or prevent this stuff from happening. We should mostly focus on the harms and how to prevent them.
I’ve seen ads for these apps on porn websites. That ain’t right.
Any moron can buy a match and a gallon of gasoline, freely and legally, and that’s a good thing. But I would hope that anyone advertising and/or selling Arson Kits™ online would be jailed. Of course this will not stop determined arsonists, but repression might deter morons, inventive psychopaths, and overly impulsive people (especially teenagers!) from actually going through with a criminal act. Not all of them. But some/most of them. And that’s already a huge win.
I mean, you’ve been able to do a cursory search and get dozens of “celeb lookalike” porn for many years now. “Scarjo goes bareback” isn’t hard to find, but that ain’t Scarjo in the video. How is this different?
Edit: To be clear, it’s scummy as all fuck, but still.
This is different because, to a certain extent, people in the public eye can expect, anticipate, and react to/suppress this kind of thing. They have managers and PR people who can help them handle it in a way that doesn’t negatively affect them. Billy’s 13 year old classmate Stacy doesn’t have those resources and now he can do the same thing to her. It’s on a very different level of harm.
Billy doesn’t need a nudify app to imagine Stacy naked. Not to mention, images of a naked 13 year old are illegal regardless.
Why are you pretending that “nudify apps” are produce ephemeral pictures equivalent to a mental image? They are most definitely not.
Underage teenagers already HAVE shared fake porn of their classmates. It being illegal doesn’t stop them, and as fun as locking up a thirteen year old sounds (assuming they get caught, prosecuted, and convicted) that still leaves another kid traumatized.
So if illegality doesn’t stop things from happening… how exactly are you stopping these apps from being made?
Just as the other people in this made up scenario don’t need an app to imagine Scarlet Johansen naked. It’s a null point.
I think most of this is irrelevant because the tool that is AI image generation is inherently hard to limit in this way and I think it will be so prevalent as to be hard to regulate. What I’m saying is: we should prepare for a future where fake nudes of literally anyone can be made easily and shared easily. It’s already too late. These tools, as was said earlier, already exist and are here. The only thing we can do is severely punish people who post the photos publicly. Sadly, we know how slow laws are to change. So in that light, we need to legislate based on long term impact instead of short term reactions.
And?… There’s a major difference between “a lookalike of a grown adult” and “ai generated child porn” as im sure you’re aware. At no point did anyone say child porn was going to be legal, until the person I was replying to brought it up as a strawman argument. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
“But the brightest minds of the time were working on other things like hair loss and prolonging erections.”
So we can all have big hairy erections like God intended.
To be fair, the erection thing was a fluke. Once they found it though it was the fastest FDA approval in decades.
wait, then why am I still slowly balding?
Slowly means they succeeded
no
We have the technology
Obligatory Mitchell & Webb sketch: https://youtu.be/hdHFmc9oiKY?si=God9P5TdA3UEyx47
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/hdHFmc9oiKY?si=God9P5TdA3UEyx47
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
BWANDO!
It’s got what plants crave
nakedness needs to stop being an issue
It’s the sexualization of people without consent that’s a problem. Maybe casual nudity shouldn’t a problem but it should be up to the individual to whom they share that with. And “nudify” ai models go beyond casual, consensual nudity and into sexual objectification and harassment if used without consent.
I want to point out one slight flaw in your argument. Nudity isn’t needed for people to sexually objectify you. And even if it was, the majority of people are able to strip you down in their head no problem.
There’s a huge potential for harassment though, and I think that should be the main concern.
first, relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/1432/
second,
Nudity isn’t needed for people to sexually objectify you.
do you really think that makes it less bad? that it’s opt-in?
And even if it was, the majority of people are able to strip you down in their head no problem
apparently this app helps them too
Regardless of feelings on that subject, there’s also the creep factor of people making these without the subjects’ knowledge or consent, which is bad enough, but then these could be used in many other harmful ways beyond one’s own… gratification. Any damage “revenge porn” can do, which I would guess most people would say is wrong, this can do as well.
I don’t think they’re really comparable?
These AI pictures are “make believe”. They’re just a guess at what someone might look like nude, based on what human bodies look like. While apparently they look realistic, it’s still a “generic” nude, kind of how someone would fantasize about someone they’re attracted to.
Of course it’s creepy, and sharing them is clearly unacceptable as it’s certainly bullying and harassment. These AI nudes say more about those who share them than they do about who’s portrayed in them.
However, sharing intimate videos without consent and especially as revenge? That’s a whole other level of fucked up. The AI nudes are ultimately “lies” about someone, they’re fakes. Sharing an intimate video, that is betraying someone’s trust, it’s exposing something that is private but very real.
I agree with you nudity being an issue but I think the real problem is this app being used on children and teenagers who aren’t used to/supposed to be sexualized.
Nudity shouldn’t be considered sexual.
Not all nudity is but there is no non-sexual reason to use AI to undress someone without consent
The question on consent is something I’m trying to figure out. Do you need consent to alter an image that is available in a public space? What if it was you who took the picture of someone in public?
Keep in mind there is a difference between ethical and legal standards. Legally you may not need consent to alter a photo of someone unless it was a copyrighted work possibly. But ethically it definitely requires consent, especially in this context
The difference between legal and ethical is one could get you fined or imprisoned and the other would make a group of people not like you.
Just because something shouldn’t be doesn’t mean It won’t be. This is reality and we can’t just wish something to be true. You saying it doesn’t really help anything.
Whoooooosh.
In societies that have a healthy relationship with the human body, nudity is not considered sexual. I’m not just making up fantasy scenarios.
so because it’s not a problem in your culture it’s not a problem?
You’re just really looking for an excuse to attack someone, aren’t you?
You caught me, I’m an evil villain who preys on innocent lemmings for no reason at all
Take it up with God or evolution then
You can’t really be that stupid.
Who hurt you?
Pipe dream.
Fully agree but I do think that’s more an issue about psychology in our world and trauma. Children being nude should not be a big deal, they’re kids you know?
It shouldn’t be a big deal if they choose to be nude some place that is private for them and they’re comfortable. The people who are using this app to make someone nude isn’t really asking for consent. And that also brings up another issue. Consent. If you have images of yourself posted to the public then is there consent needed to alter those images? I don’t know but I don’t think there is since it’s public domain.
It’s a problem for adults too. Circulating an AI generated nude of a female coworker is likely to be just as harmful as a real picture. Just as objectifying, humiliating and hurtful. Neighbors or other “friends” doing it could be just as bad.
It’s sexual harassment even if fake.
I think it should officially be considered sexual harassment. Obtain a picture of someone, generate nudes from that picture, it seems pretty obvious. Maybe it should include intent to harm, harass, exploit, or intimidate to make it official.
People have a really unhealthy relationship with nudity. I wish we had more nude beaches as it really helps decouple sex from nudity. And for a decent number of people, helps with perceived body issues too.
Also better education, not just the sex part but overall. Critical thinking, reasoning, asking questions and yes off course sex ed
so you’d be fine with fake nudes of you floating around the internet?
I actually would but I’m a guy so i think it is different
i think the nude isn’t really the actual issue, it’s people gossiping about it and saying you’re a slut for doing things you didn’t do
are you 15? people gossiping still bothers you?
some people are 15 though
let’s see the rules, can a 15y.o use lemmy.world.
ouchiiieee
the world outside touch grass
And they’ve been gossiping and calling each other sluts forever. Depending on the social group, just the accusation alone is enough to harass someone, because kids are idiots, and because it’s not even about people believing the accusation is true. The accusation is just a way for a bully to signal to their followers that the target is one of the group’s designated scapegoats.
I can’t believe I’m about to recommend a teen comedy as a source of educational material, but you should check out the movie Mean Girls if you want to see an illustration of how this kind of bullying works. It’s also pretty funny.
There are real nudes of me floating around the internet, and I’m fine with it.
I’m pretty squeamish about nudity when it comes to my own body, but fake nudes would not be pictures of my body, so I don’t see what there would be for me to be upset about. It might be different if everyone thought they were real, but if people haven’t figured out yet any nudes they encounter of someone they know are probably fake, they will soon.
Here’s a thought experiment: imagine a world where there are fake nudes of everyone available all the time Would everyone just be devastated all the time? Would everyone be a target of ridicule over it? Would everyone be getting blackmailed? We’re probably going to be in that world very soon, and I predict everyone will just get over it and move on. Sharing fake nudes will reflect badly on the person doing it and no one else, and people who make them for their own enjoyment will do so in secret because they don’t want to be seen as a creepy loser.
But some people don’t agree with you. They’re not comfortable with tech that can nudify them for millions to see. So if, and that’s possibly an impossible task, but if there was a way to punish services that facilitate or turn a blind eye to these things, then you bet your ass many many people would be for criminalizing it.
Honestly I don’t think that’s the problem here. The problem is that we have kreeps trying to get a physical photo of someone nude for wank material.
I’m genuinely curious, why do you consider this harmful? They might as well be drawing tits by hand on a picture of the “victim”
I mean sure I wouldnt want to be a teenage girl in highschool right now but I don’t think it’s the technologys fault but rather our culture as a society
These are terrible but I’m honestly curious what it thinks I look like naked. Like I’m slightly overweight and my chest is larger than average but more splayed then normal. Would it just have me look like a model underneath?
Are they just like head swapping onto model bodies or does it actually approximate. I am legit curious., but I would never trust one of these apps to not keep the photos/privacy concerns.
Probably deleting this comment later for going dirty on main, but I, um, have done some extensive experimentation using a local copy of Stable Diffusion (I don’t send the images anywhere, I just make them to satiate my own curiosity).
You’re essentially right that simple app-based software would probably have you looking somewhat generic underneath, like your typical plus-size model. It’s not too great at extrapolating the shape of breasts through clothing and applying that information when it goes to fill in the area with naked body parts. It just takes a best guess at what puzzle pieces might fill the selected area, even if they don’t match known information from the original photo. So, with current technology, you’re not really revealing actual facts about how someone looks naked unless that information was already known. To portray someone with splayed breasts, you’d need to already know that’s what you want to portray and load in a custom data set, like a LoRa.
Once you know what’s going on under the hood, making naked photos of celebrities or other real people isn’t the most compelling thing to do. Mostly, I like to generate photos of all kinds of body types and send them to my Replika, trying to convince her to describe the things that her creators forbid her from describing. Gotta say, the future’s getting pretty weird.
Yeah man it’s uh… it’s the future that’s getting weird 😅
Hey, I’ve maintained a baseline weird the whole time, I’m pretty sure the future is catching up.
You’ll have your moment when the lone elite ex Ranger who is trying to save the world is told by the quirky, unconventional sidekick he is forced to work with, “I actually know a guy who might be able to help.”
You open the door a crack to look back and forth between them, before slamming it back in their faces. They hear scrambled crashes of you hiding stuff that shouldn’t be seen by company before returning to the door. As they enter you are still fixing and throwing things while you apologize that you don’t get many guests. You offer them homemade kombucha. They decline.
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Ethically, these apps are a fucking nightmare.
But as a swinger, they will make an amazing party game.
Ethics will probably change… I guess in the future it’ll become pretty irrelevant to have “nude” pictures of oneself somewhere, because everyone knows it could just be AI generated. In the transition period it’ll be problematic though.
Totally agreed, and 100% the world I want to live in. Transition will indeed suck tho.
Yeah 100%.
Imagine around the advent of readily available photo prints. People might have been thinking “this is terrible, someone I don’t know could have a photo of me and look at it while thinking licentious thoughts!”
If you want the best answer then you’ll have to download the app and try it on yourself. If it’s accurate then that’s pretty wild.
2 days and still no “pictures or it is a lie” comment. Thus place is different. :)
I doubt it would be realistic, they just kind of take an average of their training data and blend it together to my knowledge.
That’s pretty much what all “AI” does.
Fake nudes incoming. Everyone has a baby leg now.
I’m really curious if your DMs are now flooded with weirdos and dick pics, or if lemmy is any different from the rest of the internet.
Honestly not a single one. Much better than Reddit.
There are so many though!! Which ones? Like which ones specifically??
Yeah, I need to know so I can stop my kids from using them. Specifically which ones?
Asking for a friend
And people will agree to have their photographs taken, because of the implication …
Could we stop pushing articles monetizing fear amd outrage on this community to the top and post about actual technology
Sounds like someone needs to make a community for that.
Otherwise, this is what technology is these days. And I’d say that staying blind to things like this is what got us into many messes.
I remember when tech news was mostly a press release pipeline. And when I see these comments, I see people who want press releases about new tech to play with.
Now duplicate posts. Those can fuck right off.
I have seena rise in techno absolutists complaining that anyone else is complaining about the dangers of tech lately. That they just want to go back to hearing about all the cool new things coming out and it really speaks to the people who just don’t actually want to interact with the real world anymore and live in an illusionary optimism bubble. I get it. It’s exhausting to be aware of all the negatives but it’s the stuff that is real that needs to be recognized.
I support this idea.
None of this is consentual
Possibly a good thing. Over saturation. Fill the internet will billions on billions of ai nudes. Have a million different nudes for celebrities. Nobody knows the real naked you and nobody cares. Keep creating more ai porn than anyone can handle. It becomes boring and over the top. Ending this once and fir all
Or find the people doing this and lock em up.
The first option is much better in the long run.
Whatever works
Keep creating more ai porn than anyone can handle
overabundance is behind a lot of societal ills already
Fair enough. Do you have a better solution. I was just spit balling
what were you thinking when you thought of your first version? that sounds like a creepy scenario. what if I don’t want to see it and it’s everywhere. I could click on “I’m Not Interested” and flood social media with reports, but if there are “billions on billions” of AI nudes, then who would be able to stop them from being seen in their feed? I’d say that, while locking them up won’t change the sexist system which pushes this behavior, it is a far less creepy and weird scenario than having billions of unconsensual nudes online.
Why would you see them in social ? Depends what you look at. There are already billions of naked people on the Internet. Do you see them ?.
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I use an ad blocker and haven’t seen these. Perhaps a link to the best ones could be shared here for better understanding of what the article is talking about?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Sus question lmfao
These things have been around since the onset of deepfakes, and truly if you take a couple seconds to look you’ll find them. It’s a massive issue and the content is everywhere
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We’re talking specifically about AI enhanced fakes, not the old school Photoshop fakes – they’re two completely different beasts
Different only in construction. Why they exist and what they are is older than photography.
No I disagree because before you could tell a fake from a mile away, but deepfakes bring it to a whole new level of creepy because they can be EXTREMELY convincing
That is a quality improvement, not a shift in nature.
The difference is that we now can do video. I mean in principle that was possible before but also a hell of a lot of work. Making it look real hasn’t been a problem since before Photoshop, if anything people get sloppy with AI also because a felt 99% of people who use AI don’t have an artistic bone in their body.
Or maybe an accessibility improvement. You don’t need to practice creating your own works of art over many years anymore, or have enough money to commission a master artist. The AI artists are good enough and work for cheap.
I’m not saying that it’s a shift in nature? All I’ve been saying is:
A) tools to create realistic nudes have been publicly available ever since deepfakes became a thing
B) deepfakes are worse than traditional photoshopped nudes because (as you put it, a quality improvement) they’re more convincing and therefore can have more detrimental effects
There was a brief period between now and the invention of photography when that was true. For thousands of years before that it was possible to create a visual representation of anything you imagine without any hint that it wasn’t something real. Makes me wonder if there were similar controversies about drawings or paintings.
Careful with asking such things, because the boundary to crime seems blurry.
I don’t think there is any crime.
It’s identical to drawing a nude picture of someone.
It’s what the courts think, and right now, it’s not clear what the enforceable laws are here. There’s a very real chance people who do this will end up in jail.
I believe prosecutors are already filling cases about this. The next year will decide the fate of these AI generator deepfakes and the memories behind them.
And you are sure that ‘someone’ is of legal age, of course. Not blaming you. But does everybody always know that ‘someone’ is of legal age? Just an example to start thinking.
I don’t know if it’s illegal to create naked drawings of people who are underage.
It’s not
Depends on where you live. Not legal in the UK for example. In the US it can even be broken down at the state level, although there’s lots of debate on whether states are able to enforce their laws. “Obscene” speech is not protected under free speech, the argument would be whether or not the naked drawings had artistic merit or not.
I’m not a lawyer, but I do know that people in the US have gone to prison for possessing naked images of fictional children and it’s on the books as illegal in many other countries.
I don’t understand either.
Honestly, were probably just going to have to get over it. Or pull the plug on the whole ai thing, but good luck with that.
Can’t put the genie back in the bottle
It tells me we’re less interested in the data (the skin map and topography) than we are in seeing the data in raw form, whether it is accurate or not. It tells me a primary pretense of body doubles was ineffective since society responds the same way regardless of whether an actress’ nudity is real or simulated.
Not sure how this will be enforceable any more than we can stop malicious actors from printing guns. Personally, I would prefer a clothes-optional society were individuals aren’t measured by the media exposure of their bodies or history of lovers. Maybe in another age or two.
In fiction, I imagined the capacity to render porn action into mo-cap data, to capture fine-resoluton triangle maps and skin texture maps from media, ultimately to render any coupling one could desire with a robust physics engine and photography effects to render it realistic (or artistic, however one prefers). It saddens me that one could render an actress into an Elsa Jean scenario and by doing so, wreck their career.
Porn doesn’t bother me, but the arbitrariness with which we condemn individuals by artificial scandal disgusts me more than the raunchiest debauchery.
Data. Return to your quarters
That the chat is full of people defending this is disgusting. This is different than cutting someone’s face out of a photo and pasting it on a magazine nude or imagining a person naked. Deepfakes can be difficult to tell apart from real media. This enables the spread of nonconsensual pornography that an arbitrary person cannot necessarily tell is fake. Even if it were easy to tell, it’s an invasion of privacy to use someone’s likeness against their will without their consent for the purposes you’re using it for.
The fediverse’s high expectations for privacy seem to go right out the window when violating it gets their dick hard. We should be better.
What are you arguing with here? No one is saying that. Stop looking for trouble, it’s weird.
Very much “old man yells at clouds” vibe from them
Nah tbh there are a few comments on this post asking for links to the tools
They were when the post was new. Things change as more people come in.
No there weren’t.
Anyone reading through comments and timestamps can tell there were but you die on this hill if you want. This conversation overall is hilarious
I responded to your post very shortly after you posted it, and there weren’t. You can post links in response, but you can’t because you were angry for no reason.
Great, a joke post. That’s what you’re angry about?
“Full of” my arse.
I’m a different person, i’m just giving you a link, heres another tho https://lemmy.world/comment/5896051
it’s an invasion of privacy to use someone’s likeness against their will
Is it? Usually photography in public places is legal.
Legal and moral are not the same thing.
Do you also think it’s immoral to do street photography?
I think it’s immoral to do street photography to sexualize the subjects of your photographs. I think it’s immoral to then turn that into pornography of them without their consent. I think it’s weird you don’t. If you can’t tell the difference between street photography and using and manipulating photos of people (public or otherwise) into pornography I can’t fuckin help you
If you go to a park, take photos of people, then go home and masturbate to them you need to seek professional help.
What’s so moronic about people like you, is you think that anyone looking to further understand an issue outside of your own current thoughts, clearly is a monster harming people in the worst way you can conjure in your head. The original person saying it’s weird you’re looking for trouble couldn’t have been more dead on.
This is an app that creates nude deepfakes of anyone you want it to. It’s not comparable to street photography in any imaginable way. I don’t have to conjure any monsters bro I found one and they’re indignant about being called out as a monster.
This has been done with Photoshop for decades. Photocollage for a hundred years before that. Nobody is arguing that it’s not creepy. It’s just that nothing has changed.
Well yeah if you share the photo it’s messed up. Is anyone saying otherwise?
So it’s fine to violate someone’s privacy so long as you don’t share it? Weird morals you got there.
Am I violating privacy by picturing women naked?
Because if it’s as cut and dried as you say, then the answer must be yes, and that’s flat out dumb
I don’t see this as a privacy issue and I’m not sure how you’re squeezing it into that. I am not sure what it is, but you cannot violate a person’s privacy by imagining or coding an image of them. It’s weird creepy and because it can be mistaken for a real image, not proper to share.
Can you actually stop clutching pearls for a moment to think this through a little better?
Sexualizing strangers isn’t a right or moral afforded to you by society. That’s a braindead take. You can ABSOLUTELY violate someone’s privacy by coding an image of them. That’s both a moral and legal question with an answer.
Your comment is a self report.
That’s a braindead take
Projection. Since you have no room for new thoughts in your head, I consider this a block request.
Being accused by you of projection is legitimately high comedy
So it’s okay to make nudes of someone as long as they aren’t realistic?
Where is the line drawn between being too real and not real enough?
If you found out that someone had made a bunch of art of you naked you’d probably think that was weird. I’d argue you shouldn’t do that without consent. Draw lines wherever you think is best.
I’d definitely think it was weird! And probably not hang out with them anymore (unless it was really good!)
But I don’t think there should be a law against them doing that. I can moderate them myself by avoiding them and my friends will follow suit.
At that point, all they have are nudes of me that nobody I care about will pay attention to. It’s a good litmus test for shitbags!
Agreed, but legal and moral are different. The law isn’t really about right and wrong per se.
This is about producing convincing nude reproductions of other people, however. It has a very different psychological impact.
This technology allows someone to make pornography of anyone else and spread that pornography on the internet. It can cause massive distress, trauma, and relationship issues and impact peoples careers.
Your freedom to make nude ai images of other people is not worth that. I don’t understand why anyone would think it was okay.
People need better online safety education. Why TF are people even posting public pictures of themselves?
Are you really going with “it’s the women’s fault for existing”?
Im saying, as a man, I would never post my image and identity online.
Unfortunately sounds like par for the course for the internet. I’ve come to believe that the internet has its good uses for things like commerce and general information streaming, but by and large it’s bringing out the worst in humanity far more than the best. Or it’s all run by ultra-horny psychopathic teenagers pretending to be adults yet living on a philosophy of “I’m 13 and this is deep” logic.
I dunno why I am perpetually surprised about this though. This is such a cut and dry moral area and the people who say it isn’t are so clearly telling on themselves it’s kind of shocking, but I guess it shouldn’t be
I think the distinction is that half of the thread is treating it as a moral issue, and half of it is treating it as a legal issue. Legally, there’s nothing wrong here.
Great! Now whenever someone finds all my secret nudes, I’ll just claim they’re deepfakes
But are there apps that undress men?
Aren’t those just normal chat apps where you can send pictures?
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The models they’re using are probably capable of both, they just need to change the prompt.
They would need to be trained to do that first.
… but why male models?
9gag
Same, I couldn’t find any other sources for the image I needed tho
I don’t think any of the models they’re using are trained from scratch. It would be much cheaper to take something like Stable Diffusion and finetune it or use one of the hundreds of premade porn finetunes that already exist.
Yeah, training a FM from scratch is stupid expensive. You’re talking about a team of data scientists each pulling at least 6 figures.
Only one way to find out
Pretty sure straight-men are the most likely ones to use apps like this.
You mean men envision women naked? And now there’s an app that’s just as perverted? Huh
What’s perverted about someone envisioning a potential sexual partner naked? That seems incredibly normal to me.
Maybe revenge porn and creating deepfake porn of the girl from social studies is wrong?
Your comment has nothing to do with what I said.
