- cross-posted to:
- dundermifflin@lemm.ee
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Yes you should take it, if you got no other options.
Then you immediately update your CV with your new job title and jump ship for more pay. If the orginal company offers to match the pay you say “you had the chance to pay me more. If you valued me that much, you could have paid me that much from the start”
Don’t go back on your intent to leave for a better job. Some employers will see you as disloyal if you take the raise and stay. You’re usually better off leaving anyway.
There is rarely a situation where you should allow your employer to match the offer you have in hand.
They had the opportunity to do so and then failed to properly retain you. If they realize how much losing you will cost them in productivity, that’s on them, not you.
It’s not personal. It’s literally business.
You could try negotiating regular pay raises, start with a match and require 5% per year after that.
If they ain’t paying you enough to stay they’re highly unlikely to honor the idea of regular raises. They’ve already shown they’re willing to low ball you if they can get away with it so fuck taking the risk of staying.
Yup. You’re liable to be downsized in a couple months anyway.
If you take the raise and stay, you’re now a bigger number on the same asshole bean counter’s spreadsheet. Maybe the biggest in your role. That’s not a long term move.
Being the highest paid is always the best move.
Highest-paid-off is first laid-off.
This. My buddy/former manager accepted a counter offer and lasted less than 6 months before they fired him, and made his working life miserable during that time. Just reinforced the mentality in me to never trust the counter offer of a place I already want to leave.
Yep. Soon as you commit to looking, you commit to leaving.
I told my last supervisor about every interview I was on; how it went, what I thought, etc. After a year I left abruptly (ie the pace at which they’d fire me). They were surprised, even after I’d been telling my supe about my hunting for a year.
I cannot understand why this is so hard to get. People on here whining about their employer using them. Well, yes they are. Use them back. It’s just business, it’s expected on both sides of the table.
Last three times I jumped, I increased my pay by $12 -> $22 -> $32. I could go again, but I’m kinda fat, happy and lazy ATM.
I’m picturing you on a porch in a Rockin chair with chewing some grass, occasionally stopping to look around and go “yuup”.
I’d like that.
Are you actively watching me?!
“yuup”
One of the biggest hurdles for me is the gap in medical coverage and uncertainty of what is covered next. I have a genetic condition that requires very expensive medication. Jumping jobs and hoping COBRA payments aren’t insane is a big risk, so I don’t feel confident jumping quickly between jobs if one doesn’t work out.
This right here.
Yep. Enjoying about $400 more per paycheck after my last employer shuffled my duties around for no additional compensation. “Duties as assigned” being vague works both ways.
Never heard of duties as assigned, but that is fucking bullshit.
I guess the part I don’t get about everyone saying to take it and immediately start looking for a new job using your new title is that the new job doesn’t ask you how much experience or time you have with your new title?
Like, do they really not ask for 2+ years experience in that position or do you just lie to them or do you say, “Yeah, about 3 days now!” ?
From what I’ve heard is recuritment has a sort of preference for candidates.
So that’s starts: People they know that can do the job.
People that they know, that know someone that can do the job.
Then I guess it would be people already doing the job.
So you’re not going to be in as good of a position as someone that has 2+ years in the business. But what it does show is that the company you worked for, for a while, thought you was good enough to promote to that level. It’s definitely going to make you more likely to get the job at a competitor. If it doesn’t just keep apply for 6 months. By that time you will have 6 months experience.
You might need a month on the job, ratger than 3 days, just to show you been trained to run that job.
Also just because a job says 2+ years experience doesn’t mean they wont overlook that. It’s just that’s what they prefer.
Ah ok, well I guess that makes sense.
The reasons for me to change job would be:
- Better salary
- Better work/life balance (less commuting or less hours)
- Less responsibilities
- A work that better fit my values
I’d only accept a “dry promotion” to improve my resume. Then I’d quit.
Here’s a secret: your resume is whatever you write on a piece of paper. You can just get a volunteer role if you want to be a director or lead something.
Don’t ever work for free unless you care about the end result. And definitely don’t ever work for free for your own company. You can’t be paid what you don’t ask for.
Maybe you get paid the same but work half the time? (won’t happen, but would be a ‘dry’ promotion I would take)
Nope. I want the promotion, the increase in salary and the halfed working hours.
That’s probably not how it would work, but it’s worth clarifying.
If it’s a promotion to less work, maybe.
Maybe.
Is there a risk of more responsibility and more risk in general? Meaning if something goes wrong, you can get fucked easier?
The way those those "maybe"s are used, are trying to illustrate their elevated doubt. So like “if 3 independent lawyers all agree I’m not getting fked.”
That’s not how this works at all.
You keep doing all your current responsibilities. Then you get these more with no additional compensation.
Do it for the exposure!
I’m definitely exposed to the elements because of not owning a home
I got a “dry” promotion at my last position, and obviously I took it. I then put my new title on my Resume, when job hunting for a few months and found a new position that came with a 20%+ pay raise.
I’m actually a big fan of promotions that don’t include raises, because it shows that your employer doesn’t actually value you as an employee, and enables you to get a much larger raise at a new company compared to whatever raise your current employer would’ve given you if they cared at all about retention.
This works great for highly educated white collars!
Not for the other 70%+ of the workforce though.
Why? Better resumé is a better resumé.
This is the way.
Always take the promotion. Then update the resume and start hunting.
Or skip step 1 and just lie on your resumé 😂
Preach it. I fought and fought to get my ASQs and CQEs (quality certs) as an automations guy. I worked in fda/dea/gmp environments with those systems so why they hell not. Took 2 years to finally get both and bailed immediately. Did all my bs six sigma bullshit along the way.
If it’s a smash and grab for them then it’s a smash and grab for me.
Capitalism 2: Slavery Boogaloo
Except Capitalism 2 is actually quite a fun computer game…
I took a promotion without a pay rise on the agreement it would come when pay was reviewed annually. A shit deal, but one I was prepared to accept on the balance of things. I made clear that if they didn’t follow through then I would immediately demote myself and start looking for a new job.
Pay review came around and it was below inflation. I immediately demoted myself and started looking for a new job. I even requested an internal transfer that was denied (made them too much money where I was).
I handed in my notice a short while later and everyone was, to my surprise, surprised. I really didn’t understand why the shock…until I learned in due course that most people don’t follow through.
Funnier still, I returned 6 months later (due to a quirk in contracts) at double the salary in the dept I requested a transfer to.
Anyway my point is - do what is to your benefit, always. Companies can play games - as can you.
I handed in my notice a short while later and everyone was, to my surprise, surprised. I really didn’t understand why the shock…until I learned in due course that most people don’t follow through.
When I was a young adult, I used to work as a lab tech in a plasma center. That involved taking liter bottles of plasma, checking the computer system, filling out paperwork, drawing fluid and taking blood vials to run in a centrifuge, and frequently having to redo paperwork because the barely-trained phlebotomists kept sending them to me covered in drops of blood. Of course, this not only took longer, but meant I had to sanitize the entire area, change PPE, and get shit from the rest of the team for not just taking their biohazard-contaminated paperwork regardless. The room held 50 to 100 donors at a time, and the lab team was just two people.
My immediate boss would routinely just fucking disappear or taking random lunches, even during rushes, leaving me to handle everything on my own. She’d get pissy over small things, and spent time chatting with management in the offices, just hanging out, while I did all the work.
One day, she did something like this and left. I muttered to myself that I was going to quit. I finished the sample I was working on and went into the -40 degree biohazard freezer to store the sample.
Cut to a minute later, I came out of the freezer to see someone from management in the lab, saying “I heard you’re quitting?”
…what?
She said “Fine then. Go ahead and go.” (or something like that.)
I was stunned, but realized that my shitty manager must have heard me on her way out, and fucking told on me. I hadn’t planned on following through, and was mostly just upset at being used, but now?
“Fuck it.” I thought. “I said I’ll do it, so I’ll do it.”
I’m not a good speaker, but I basically stumbled over some short apology like that I would have finished the work day first, but would leave now if she wanted to. Her reply was to get all exasperated, as if she hadn’t expected me to do anything but crumple at being confronted, and she told me “Well, have a nice life then!” as I walked out the door. Never saw her or my shitty manager again. Years later, I did hear my shitty manager had gotten fired or something, for being shit at hear job.
I think I made the right choice.
(Edited for typos, so many typos…)
Never apologize to those people. You def made the right choice. Hope you found something better to devote your time to.
I did, but then the company got bought out, all the people who worked there fired, and I had to move back to a different state with family to avoid being homeless. Kill me…
I want the games to end. Fun time is over
And their promises mean nothing.
So true. I’ve seen promises broken for a multitude of reasons: malice, ignorance, naivity, legality…we always reach for malice but it isn’t always.
Same deal though - a company will break promises, so don’t feel any obligation on your part. Of course this needs to be balanced with your reputation in your industry.
Its not malice. Its just something they said. It was empty words. Never an intention to keep it.
So… Lieing, looks like malice to me.
As others have said, you take the ‘promotion’ and IMMEDIATELY start looking for a new job with your new title on your resume.
Corporations are not loyal to you. Do not be loyal to them.
As a hiring manager, I’d never consider someone for the role they took on yesterday when recruiting. That just doesn’t make any sense.
As a hiring manager I am sure you’re aware that when consulting professionals in the recruiting field, many people are told to replace their old title with their new one. The position they reach is more important when moving up than the one they had for X period of time, and many employers won’t dig too deep into it, especially if the potential employee can sell themselves.
That practice does not exist in my country.
Or it does and you never thought much on it.
On a CV someone would put X time at Y company, was role Z. How long role Z was is not normally listed and if I got a multi page CV with every role listed at each company I would toss it.
You want people who other people vetted as good enough to do <blank>. It’s often a first pass filter to even get to your inbox. Why wouldn’t you read the rest of the resume.
I read the rest of the resume, but I evaluate the people based on a proven track record, not on the newly appointed role with zero history.
You are allied with the crapitalistic corporaturds.
Your “meal” doesn’t come with food.
Your “marriage” doesn’t come with love.
Your “car” doesn’t come with an engine
Do the above sound ridiculous?
Now re-read the headline.
Your “marriage” doesn’t come with love.
That part doesn’t sound all that ridiculous, to be honest.
The other two…
Hey this basically happened to me. I got a 1 dollar raise offer for moving into a management role. Negotiating a higher pay Tuesday. Wish me luck!
Good luck, but when you are turned down you should recognize the red flag and start looking for your new, better job, leveraging your new title to get paid what it is worth.
That’s the plan… I’m still in school and the jobs pretty flexible so I may stick it out for a bit but it’s worth a shot.
Once got offered a promotion to make less. Made $15/hr as a “Junior” but got 1.5x Overtime and there was always as much overtime as you wanted.
Got offered a “Not Junior” full-time role for $30,000/year.
Just got up and left. Went home and started applying elsewhere. I know I was replacing a person who made 60k
Now I need to know if the next tier was, “Definitely-Not-Junior”.
It actually swaps to “Definitely-Not-Senior”
More responsibility without a pay increase sounds like a scam to me.
And an amazingly easy scam to avoid, and yet so many people don’t…
You assume it means more responsibility and often it does but not always.
For example the promotion might be to “Senior Widget Fixer” rather than just “Widget Fixer”, possible it will recognise your experience but day to day not actually make much difference, until pay review or job hunting time. There are cases when it will make sense to take it.They makes even less sense. If the company recognized you moved into a higher Sr level there’s nothing between the recognition and the salary raise except bean counters.
Ok Junior Widget Fixer
Whoaaa does that promotion come with a free widget for my personal use during breaks?
So the industry that I was in for a long time was production based, meaning your income is reflected by your physical performance. It was extremely demanding and also quite high paying.
So, I got stupidly good at this job. And I rarely took on additional responsibilities, because that would actually mean more stress and less money. In this industry, there were two reasons to go into management: you either had trouble coping with the physical strain that came with this insane work, or because you wanted to hold power over others. But it wasn’t a pay bump and it was more work/responsibility. Consequently the people who took this on were rarely the people who should have and the industry on the whole suffers accordingly.
Electrical lineman? Scuba welder? You have my curiosity.
I went to school with a guy that became an underwater welder. Two things I learned about that job, it’s one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and it pays a lot of money.
You wouldn’t think it, but tree planter. A pretty quintessentially Canadian job. It’s piece rate, usually between 15-50c per tree. I got to the point later in my career where I was regularly making $800+ per day, with a few days over $1500. It requires planting a helluva lot of trees though.
Not a year-round occupation, but it’s possible to make a decent annual income by doing this seasonally.
That is the most Canadian thing I’ve heard all day, and also hella cool.
Haha! I worked for a contract cleaning crew for some time. Turnover was very high since the hours and wages sucked. The only people who hung around long enough to become managers were eminently unfit to be managers. Seems like managers are destined to suck for a large number of reasons.
Of course you do.
The goal is not to earn more. The goal is to do fuck all.
I was once asked if I wanted to be the project manager for a system I was working on. Purely a internal title with no pay increase. Lol, fuck no.
Well you can do the route of getting some PM experience and then doing that.
This. Also, project managers are very much sought after, and you can relatively easily switch industrial sectors if that’s what you like. I’m currently on my 4th, only the 1st one was software.
How did you get your education and/or first experience with project management? I’m finding myself being pushed into a project management role and am finding it to be a difficult transition. I’m not unhappy about the transition and it is coming with increased pay, but I need to learn skills that will help me in the role.
Second what the other commenter said, I’m interested in project management but I’m not 100% sure how to get into it
Increased responsibility = increased compensation.
Same here!
Them: How about liason-title with added meetings and responsibilities?
Me: Does it pay more?
Them: Unfortunately, it does not.
Me: Unfortunately, I do not work for free.
Kind of an odd article, as sometimes there really are reasonable times for a “promotion” with little/no pay increase.
A lot of manual labor and trades positions require experienced people to be management, supervisors, etc. When you take a promotion in a field like this you might have “more responsibility” but the same pay, and that makes sense. Why? Well - because you’re not fucking breaking your back or manning a line all day. I think most people who have worked one of these jobs sees that as reasonable.
Unfortunately, most journalists and many people making online posts about the topic are people who have really only ever worked behind a computer, or ever worked in a big city - so these articles tend to focus on that kind of “technocrat” job sphere where everyone is just some variation of “computer manager person”
Nah, fuck that. Promotions should be coming with a reasonable wage increase in every job.
Did you not actually read anything I wrote.
In many professional circles, especially blue collar unions or close knit groups - there is wide transparency and a mutual understanding regarding pay. No one wants to be the fucker making twice as much money than the guys they just worked with who are breaking their backs in the sun while you run excel spreadsheets. It’s simply a different type of job
I know it can be hard to understand if you’ve only worked “computer jobs”, but not everything is a hyper corporate job that takes place in a tower or whatever.
Instead of being indignant, you should ask about my experience. I’ve done blue collar work, and so has everyone I know. Not a single person would be willing to take a promotion if it didn’t also mean a raise.
Edit: Where I grew up, we called people who took promotions without wage adjustments “suckers”.
I don’t think you have
That fine if you don’t believe me, but I know my lived experience.
What are your blue collar jobs my man. Don’t be shy
I’ve worked as a field hand on multiple farms, picked rock, pulled ragweed, moved grain bins, fixed tractors, etc. I grew up in a rural area. Everyone I know has done work similar to this.
You need to join a union.
What your spouting is corporate propaganda, designed to make you value your labor less. As is the “not making more than the others”-lie which oppressors have used to control their populations for ages.
But there are different perspectives to the situation, so for academical purposes, let’s explore a few:
Labour market model; If you’re doing work that requires skills, knowledge and/or combinations thereof that are harder to acquire, your rarity and thus value increases - you should be paid more in cash and/or benefits.
This includes institutional knowledge, how things are done at the specific workplace, including who to talk with and how.
Economics/value capture; If you’re doing work that brings the employer more profits, such as organising, costing, budgeting or taking over tasks to let the employer scale up - you should be paid a part of those increased profits.
The case for cooperatives; If you truly would be equal, and comfortable, in a workplace there’s much to be said that wage differences disturb that harmony, and you could see it as playing different parts in a commune.
This does however assume that you are all equally invested in the goal, it is profitable enough to compensate all of you fairly and equally, and enough that you are not wanting, or at least equally lacking. This is the case for situations like homesteads, communist society, and anarchist societies like Star Trek or The Culture.
Hmm…
From my perspective, the only reasonable way to get a promotion without increased pay is if you’re working less (which 4-day week studies show isn’t connected to weekly hours), and getting benefits to compensate.
I don’t think you actually understand union/communist philosophy if you think “rigid promotion structure where the managerial class always has more money and power than the laborer is super worker friendly
That… is not at all what I’m saying, nor implying.
I’m actually agreeing with you that the managerial system should not have more power and/or money, but if that class wants more labor from you it is only fair they cede some power and money.
I’m saying that not compensating someone for more complex labor, to benefit an owner, is never worker friendly.
You can compensate in other ways than money and benefits, and you can remove the exploitative/segregating systems by paying everyone enough and not extracting value (as owner profits do), but both require collective action.
And other things as well, like vision, plan and funding. But without collective action, the only incentive is for the owning class to squeeze you tighter and manipulate you to blame the worker class.
Thats… fine, and I agree, it’s just so odd that so many people read my comment where I said “well, in some circumstances it makes sense that a promotion wouldn’t automatically confer more money” and so many people just instantly made up arguments wherein they’re making me out to say that “you should do more work for the same pay!”.
It’s just bizarre, it’s frustrating a bit. Because a lot of these people view themselves as progressive leftists as I do - but they’re utterly incapable of visualizing any job structure other than their own, and they end up advocating for what is essentially a “money funnels up” system by making this implicit assumption everyone at the bottom of the totem is doing ‘less work’ than the people in the middle or the top.
So we’ve agreed this whole time, but I feel like in haste to ‘make a point’ there’s been some hostility
I apologise if there’s been perceived hostility towards you. I aimed for being hostile of the rhetoric and framework of what has been active manipulation and corporate propaganda for almost a century, and probably longer in non-corporations.
The medium doesn’t lend itself well to nuances, but I did not intend to aim any hostility to you as a person, only the rhetoric, and I’m very sorry if the delineation wasn’t sufficiently communicated.
And you’re still saddled with responsibility for the whole crew, the whole job and coming in on budget. Mental work saves the body but at mental expense. Maybe C-suite and board should take pay cuts so everyone gets decently paid for quality work with quality tools and quality materials.
Again, you’re assuming there is a “c-suite and board” to every job and there often isn’t. Many many many people work for their local sewer company or whatever that just has a single owner or maybe two co-owners in it.
Yes, obviously people at the “top of of the pack” often make too much moneys but I don’t think anyone who has actually done hard manual labor for 10-12 hour shifts is going to tell you it’s so much easier than the ‘responsibility of coming in on budget’. It’s simply not the same.
Of course not. I never said otherwise, and said everyone should be decently paid.
Ok, awesome, so the laborers busting their balls every day should make the same money as the middle managers on the computers
I’m not wasting time on someone intent on “winning” than on inner standing. Maybe you really don’t get it, somehow I doubt it. The bottom line is, if you can’t post everyone a living wage (more than scraping by), you can’t afford to be in business or you’re too greedy.
… yeah no shit man. Did you come here just to regurgitate vaguely progressive talking points or actually discuss anything that anyone is actually talking about.
I’m sure it makes you feel very good to just kind of say things that are obvious and completely ignore anything I actually say.
Why don’t you respond to my last comment? Laborers should typically make as much as middle management on computers, right?
Be careful! Don’t make up another conversation that no one said and respond to that instead!
In my current role taking a management position would not result in a pay increase becuase I already wear a few hats that give me slight bumps in rate and allowances so I’m effectively paid the same take home.
What it would mean is that I no longer have to go outside in sweltering heat, freezing cold or pissing down rain for 4 to 6 hours a day. Would I take a promotion with no pay bump? In a fucking heartbeat.
Nah, that’s the wrong attitude. If they’re giving you more responsibility, regardless of the quality of work overall, you should get paid commensurately, whether or not you’re effectively taking home the same pay due to multiple hats.
Hatred of intellectual elites is one of the signs of fascism, BTW.
Anyway, you are not paid for breaking your back, you’re paid for having a valuable skill. If that skill is just being a grunt, everyone can do it, you are replaceable. If that skill is managing grunts, only few can do it, you are less replaceable, thus can get a higher pay.
If you really think, moving into a superior role doesn’t deserve more pay, you are being fucked by your employer. You don’t understand the system you’re working in and you’re lashing out against those stoopid office workers because you don’t understand that they are not responsible for your misery, your boss is.
No one is hating intellectual elites here. You are not an intellectual elite by virtue of being a computer programmer.
There’s a sharp divide between “computer socialists” and “blue collar socialists” in my opinion. You are the former, I am the latter. I understand that the person managing the laborers and the laborers themselves are probably entitled to roughly the same pay - as laboring fucking blows. You believe that the “managerial” class should always make more and more money.
Compared to a factory worker, of course a well paid developer is an elite.
The divide you’re trying to create here is bullshit. Mostly because we’re not talking about any form of socialism, but about the real world of capitalism we’re both living in.
And a foreman is no “managerial” class. Just a better qualified worker. Nothing more.
You glorify physical labor for no reason.
No one but you considers developers “elites” lmfao. Most laughable programmer
That’s why there’s a qualifying context in my statement.
But apparently, context isn’t your strong suit.
I don’t think anyone in the world would consider you an intellectual
I don’t think that’s on you to decide.
Intellectual does not mean “having a PhD in sociology and literature”, it means “working with your mind”. That’s why there’s a suspiciously close relation with the word “intelligence”.
This is a very interesting take and observation, thank you for sharing
Yes, I like Lemmy - but it’s almost bizarre how much of a monolith the user base seems to be. I’d think that every single person here was a desk jockey of some sort who has never worked a blue collar job in their life. And that really does warp mindsets regarding what the “average” work experience is like (again, similar to how many journalistic outlets seem to assume that the ‘average American’ works in a major metro city in a white collar office job)
To be fair, the typical American does work in a major city in an office job, as that’s where the jobs are.
By some estimates there’s only about 20 million US blue collar jobs in total.
Naw dude, you legit just onboarded every bit trash that’s been fed to you. You are getting suckered into taking less pay for more work. It doesn’t matter if the work changes, the venn diagram of your responsibility increases.
I would never and have never offered or have taken a promotion without an increase in pay. I have had responsibilities added to my position without an increase, but when I figure that out, I ask to be paid what I’m fucking owed.
Someone owes you, and has been taking from you, you have lost time not being paid for the work you’re doing by accepting experience in lieu of compensation. Or maybe you are the boss taking from someone else because that’s what someone did to you. That’s a fucking cycle of abuse imo.
As another user noted, you are kind of a sucker.
I think you just don’t actually understand workers working together. The managerial class shouldn’t always have more power and money than the laborers, despite the techno-managerial class co-opting vaguely socialist/union rhetoric to make their high wages for less intensive work sound vaguely leftist.
Workers working together would demand fair pay for work, like the UAW.
By not demanding that, you are licking a boot, you are being exploited.
If you are on a group of people also getting exploited, and not demanding fair pay, that’s a gaggle of suckers! Just cause you’re the lead goose in that gaggle, still makes you a fucking sucker.
??? Are you just making up people to get mad at now? Did you read a comment saying I’m against unions or fair pay in your dreams? Or saying I love being exploited?
It kind of shows how out of touch you are with actual workers when you read me saying “I think laborers and the managerial class should be paid roughly the same, with laborers even making more than managers in some cases” and you manage to get so mad about it. You’re lost in the sauce of online discourse
No, I’ve read most of your replies, I’m starting to think you don’t even believe your own rhetoric, you sound ridiculous. You’re even purity testing people who’ve obviously had similar experiences.
You are making terrible arguments en masse.
I agree wholeheartedly, Lemmys userbase seems to be heavily weighted to certain demographics and especially on certain topics to the point where sometimes Id like to join in on the discussion but I take a moment and think “Do I want to argue with communists today?”
Yeah, it’s a really ugly side of the website imo. Like, I’m sympathetic to a lot of communist ideals! But the “communism” people preach here is often variations of people looking for every opportunity to call you a fascist because you said maybe computer programmers aren’t the most oppressed demographic in the world.
It’s kind of a shame, because these same people will turn around and say “why can’t socialism get off the ground?” And it’s basically entirely their fault
Lemmy is full of nerds that tend to use computers in their jobs, go figure
Yeah I could see that. I think I view it more as the working class, which now includes a lot of gig work - which doesn’t have the same “family” feel as a lot of blue collar jobs have
