• djsoren19@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    1 day ago

    okay but are those jorts underneath the dress?

    I get wearing some shorts underneath for safety, believe me. I remember being a smol femboy insecure about my body and posture. but jorts? jorts‽

  • macji@pawb.social
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    1 day ago

    Before I came out as transfemme, I was in the city of Manaus in Brazil, traveling during Carnaval. Manaus is not terribly popular with foreigners, and I stood out as very white, very American, and very blonde, so lots of people would stare, want to talk with me, randomly touch my long hair, etc. All normal travel things.

    During a concert however three guys were actively watching and inspecting me, all turned away from the stage to do so. They’d turn to talk to each other, and then turn right back to stare at me. Not so normal, and I was getting a little spooked and thinking about an exit plan, when they all came right up to me with a phone out.

    One shouted over the crowd as he showed me his phone, “This you?!” and showed me a picture of Kurt Cobain. Hilarious, and seeing Kurt in a dress of course is even funnier now in hindsight. I said no, pointed out that he was dead, shook a couple hands, and they wandered off. Fun times.

  • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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    1 day ago

    More men should wear skirts and dresses. With right style even masculine men can look good with such clothes.

    And long hair. Long hair is so beautiful and sexy that everyone should grow long hair despite of the gender.

    • merc@sh.itjust.works
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      15 hours ago

      In the 60s and 70s, feminists fought for the idea that people should feel free to dress and act however they wanted and not let their gender define them.

      It seems like we’ve taken some steps backwards since then. Men wearing dresses is more accepted now, but only in the narrow confines of being trans. I don’t think Kobain or Bowie ever wanted to be defined as trans, they just wanted to be themselves and challenge cultural norms.

      • Jorunn (she/her)@lemmy.blahaj.zoneM
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        4 hours ago

        There’s a sort of societal pressure to present as your gender when you’re trans simply because it’s safer and the alternative is often being misgendered and marginalized. it’s also really scary to change presentation early on so early in the transition is when you’ll see many sort of “overcorrect” and go overly femme or masc, but many are perfectly happy to be gender non-conforming, and many try less hard as they get more comfortable with themselves.

        There’s also the growing trend of femboys or guys that present more feminine, and I see guys painting their nails more than before these days.

        I think a celebrity making a gesture or doing something symbolically is really cool, but at the end of the day the real signs of a cultural shift is what regular people are doing casually, and to me it feels like there’s something shifting, even if it’s slow going and there’s pushback.

        PS the trans dress thing sounds sort of accidentally transphobic, but looking at your profile I don’t think that was intentional and is just an issue of phrasing.

    • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      18 hours ago

      I agree. Gender stereotypes suck. I feel like lots of men would love skirts if it was socially acceptable for them to wear them in more places. They’re way better than shorts when it’s hot.

    • 7U5K3N@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 day ago

      I run in circles where dudes semiregularly wear kilts.

      I’ve sat in a circle with other dudes where they were comparing brands of utility kilts. Lol

      There are folks out there that wear them. It’s just not super fashionable in a lot of circles. Unfortunately.

        • merc@sh.itjust.works
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          15 hours ago

          As long as your gender expression is channelled along very strictly defined lines that define what tartan to wear, how to wear it, which accessories are allowed / required with it, etc.

      • merc@sh.itjust.works
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        15 hours ago

        It makes sense. A lot of fashion is showing off your wealth. It’s also showing that you don’t do manual labour. When I travelled in South-East Asia, a lot of taxi drivers had one very long fingernail. The accepted reason for that was that if you had that kind of nail, it showed you didn’t do a job that involved physical labour.

    • luciole (they/them)@beehaw.org
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      1 day ago

      There’s a man’s skirt sitting in my Etsy favorites for so long. It’s scary to pioneer something like this but it’s so tempting at the same time.

    • HugeNerd@lemmy.ca
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      22 hours ago

      Long hair is nice on young people. I was nice with long hair, I looked like Jean Michel Jarre on his Equinoxe album.

      Make that hair gray.

      Ugh.

      • merc@sh.itjust.works
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        15 hours ago

        I have long hair, and it’s a major pain in the ass. Even though it’s in a braid 99% of the time, I still find long hairs everywhere. And, wrestling it into that braid is annoying because the only time it’s at all manageable is when it’s still wet from the shower. I can’t get a brush / comb through it any other time.

        The main reason I stick with it is that I really hate hair styling sprays and gels, and I think parted hair looks really stupid. So, my choices are either very long and tied back, or very, very short.

    • n0xy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 day ago

      everyone should […]

      Is also where everything goes down the drain and social pressure starts to crush people.

      My younger me would’ve stated that everyone should wear hoodies, jeans and short hair.

      • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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        1 day ago

        I get what are you trying to tell, but when i talked about everyone getting long hair, i mostly meant men, and how they should be more open to it. Its fine if people want to have long or short hair, but for men specifically, long hair is considered gay in my country, which is unfortunally homophobic, and ive heard stories about boys being bullied and even beaten in schools just because of long hair.

        So it turns out kind of opposite. Men are socially pressured into having short hair, and generally “not being gay” in homophobic way.

        • n0xy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 day ago

          Yeah, it’s really just about that exact wording and not accidentally ending up with dictating the opposite of what is the current issue. Every style should be allowed. I’m not very hopeful we actually could get there some day.

          My nephew gets excluded from the boys toilet by schoolmates because he has long hair 🤦

    • VOwOxel@discuss.tchncs.de
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      1 day ago

      I’ve thought about it sometimes, But when my hair starts to reach about 4-5 cm in length, i start getting itchy, sweaty, hair gets fatty and i start shedding scales like crazy…

    • MeatPilot@sh.itjust.works
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      1 day ago

      *I don’t know why the downvote? This is long hair on some people. My hair grows up, not down. Less perm, but I joke I’d look like Bob Ross. More similar is Seth Rogan, Jeff Goldblum (pre-jurassic era)… or like a hobbit.

      • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        18 hours ago

        The question is how do you know Kurt was binary trans or if they would’ve been okay with she/her pronouns? Comments like these are shitty in the way that egging comments are shitty. I have no doubt that Kurt was queer in some way. I’m not going to assume how or make assumptions on preferred pronouns because they’re no longer here to tell us or object to it if they don’t like it.

    • Juice@midwest.social
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      24 hours ago

      I think it means Kurt Cobain was so obviously and genuinely gender/identity queer at a time when there wasn’t a popular conception of such a thing that people who were also queer saw Kurt and realized that, at the very least, being a boy or girl, man or woman, doesn’t need to be this one thing, which is socially reinforced in the negative.

      Kurt expressed something we didn’t have words for as young people in the early 90s. But as you dug deeper, it was all in Kurt’s music, from the very beginning. It was drastically different from depictions of “transvestites” we had grown up with. And it was not just a token identification with conflicting gender identities, but deep grappling with all these inner thoughts, experience, worry, frustration, love. And everybody loved it. Through Nirvana’s music, I think you could feel accepted for being queer, because Kurt’s music was deeply resonant with many queer people’s experience, and it was hugely popular and culturally prominent.

      And there’s Kurt with dirty long hair in a dress, beautiful blue eyes, looks like about to tell someone "fuck you* and bash someone over the head with his cheap Japanese Mustang, which Kurt was known to do. The coolest rockstar on the planet, in a thriftstore dress.

      So maybe op meant something like, “I identified my own queerness when I saw Kurt’s”. But all this is made up just someone alive and infatuated with Nirvana at the time.

      • luciole (they/them)@beehaw.org
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        23 hours ago

        This is written in the booklet of Incesticide:

        At this point I have a request for our fans. If any of you in any way hate homosexuals, people of different color, or women, please do this one favor for us - leave us the fuck alone! Don’t come to our shows and don’t buy our records.

    • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.blahaj.zoneM
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      1 day ago

      It doesn’t matter how much evidence you gather; we can’t say that a dead person who never came out was trans. It sucks and it’s a tragedy how things panned out, but if there’s one thing he didn’t like in life, it was people trying to analyze his psychology. No matter how well intentioned, it’s just us applying our own worldview to things we can never get definitive answers to.

      • SectoidLexi@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 day ago

        That’s actually really gross and an erasure of trans people from history. There are a lot of cases now and throughout history of trans people unable to come out but have personal records or accounts from those close to them detailing how they felt about themselves. Saying we shouldn’t suggest anyone who was never out was trans isn’t just taking an unbiased stance, trans people are deliberately and systemically pressured from not coming out and there’s cases of trans people who were out who have their identities erased postmortem. So contributing to that feels at best like giving up ground to people who want us dead and erased.

        • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.blahaj.zoneM
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          22 hours ago

          It’s a different story if we do that firsthand accounts that more definitively indicate how that self identified, but from what I know about Kurt Cobain, he was just very eggy and queer coded. It’s entirely possible Kurt was trans, but the reason we can’t know for sure is because he never found out, not because his identity was erased.

          • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            17 hours ago

            Something that should be made very clear when talking about dead people who never found out, is that you can’t “find out” for them. Self-discovery is something that can only happen from the self. It can’t happen when someone dies. So if they didn’t before they died and they never told anyone, you can’t assume they did because you can’t actually know, and it’s equally likely you are misgendering them.

            CC: @SectoidLexi@lemmy.blahaj.zone

        • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.blahaj.zoneM
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          22 hours ago

          I refuse to call a person pronouns they haven’t publicly identified with. I apply this practice to everybody whether they’re celebrities or people I know irl; whether they’re alive or dead. Not doing so is simply misgendering, which is disrespectful and harmful even if you are proven correct. It doesn’t matter if I buy into a theory about someone’s identity or not, I can’t decide another person’s gender.

          We can’t definitively say Cobain was cis, and it’s really fucking sad that the person themselves can never fully answer that question. We only have the information that currently exists, and it’s not enough to say for sure. For all we know, Kurt would’ve rejected binary pronouns entirely; it’s just not our place to say.

            • sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              1 day ago

              I guess we will never know. For me reading between the lines of that summary, Ted didn’t talk about it at all, so I would have no reason to assume the psychiatrist thought about conversion therapy.

              It sounds like he (she?) was angry at himself and the whole situation, and everyone involved including all of society…

    • nikki@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 day ago

      ??? please dont egg dead people, egging is rude to begin with. he never said he’s trans, and never wanted people to analyze his psychology, so listen to his wishes

      • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        17 hours ago

        I agree. Egg culture is already shitty as it is. Posthumous egg culture combined with posthumous misgendering is really shitty and I for one hate it. The dead can’t defend themselves against intentional misgendering, and even if you make the argument that the dead can’t suffer anymore, that isn’t true for their loved ones who are still here.

    • Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
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      1 day ago

      Imagine you had an AMAB friend who gave you really eggy vibes, and one day you decided to start referring to them as “she”. Your friend hasn’t come out, hasn’t even said anything to you in private, but you insist on using she/her pronouns for them everywhere, to everyone they know, against their wishes. That would be pretty fucking gross right?

      I actually agree completely that Kurt was very likely trans. But I don’t think it’s cool to loudly and publicly misgender people, no matter the intent.

      • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        17 hours ago

        Imagine you had an AMAB friend who gave you really eggy vibes, and one day you decided to start referring to them as “she”. Your friend hasn’t come out, hasn’t even said anything to you in private, but you insist on using she/her pronouns for them everywhere, to everyone they know, against their wishes. That would be pretty fucking gross right?

        I’ve both had that experience personally, and I’ve experienced someone I’m close to being posthumously misgendered in that way. It feels extremely shitty. Actually having that person misgender my dead brother and make false claims about how he died was soul crushing to me (that’s an understatement, I can’t describe the grief and rage I felt at that). It destroyed me, I hated them for it, and I still hate them now. Egging sucks and hurts people. When you egg living people it feels shitty, invalidating, it can also feel infantizing and condescending. When dead people are egged, it doesn’t hurt them but it can hurt their living relatives to an extreme degree. It certainly hurt me when it was done to me. I don’t know if Kurt’s family feels the same way. Famous people likely get used to hearing lots of horrible things about their family members and vice versa. I know that for me that sucked, and personally, re-aggravated a lot of old trauma.

        I actually agree completely that Kurt was very likely trans. But I don’t think it’s cool to loudly and publicly misgender people, no matter the intent.

        Also there’s more than one way to be trans or queer. An insane amount actually. One can say someone was probably trans or queer in some way, but it’s not possible to say in what way. Which includes pronoun preferences. When someone doesn’t tell you, you can’t know.

      • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        17 hours ago

        What I find particularly gross about egg culture is that the people pushing it are making the assessment that a person being GNC is either not possible or that they don’t consider it likely. So they just decided that the person must be trans due to dressing as a woman. Which seems problematic doesn’t it?

        Yes it is, they, whether they understand what they’re doing or not are essentially using gender stereotypes to guess someone’s internal feeling of gender, under the idea that most people are just conforming to some set of gender stereotypes and ignoring or dismissing the people who don’t conform or care about them.

      • Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works
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        1 day ago

        On the one hand, we should always be cautious never to conclude anything about another person’s gender on their behalf.

        On the other hand, it’s a lot more than one photo. And I’m not just talking about the fact that there’s literally multiple photos from multiple shows. Kurt’s family found a pretty sizeable collection of women’s clothes and makeup in his home. There are multiple interviews where he talks about feeling closer to the feminine side of the human experience or how he always tended to gravitate more towards having female friends, lots of stuff like that.

        There’s also supposedly an early draft of All Apologies - supposed because the document exists but some people contend the authenticity - with the line “Let me grow some breasts.”

        None of this is conclusive and should not be read as such, but anyone who has seen someone struggling with their gender is going to have a hard time coming to any other conclusion. Given Kurt’s obvious struggles with self-worth and eventual suicide, it’s hard not to see a painfully familiar pattern playing out here.

        I disagree with people who posthumously assign him she/her pronouns and insist on categorically stating he was trans - that’s just as much misgendering as it would be to deny a trans person’s identity - but I think it’s a pretty reasonable assumption all told.

        • sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          1 day ago

          I think you’ve got the right of it. Deciding without asking that someone is “she” feels like a loss of agency on their part. Especially if Kurt is on the record saying he wished people wouldn’t do that.

          Thinking that Kurt’s actions means he was gender nonconforming and possibly a trans woman is perfectly good and sad :'(

        • Axolotl@feddit.it
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          1 day ago

          Or…maybe he was just a femboy yk
          Maybe, maybe not but it’s still a possibility that many in this comment section seem to forget

    • Hildegarde@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 day ago

      For the record, if I died before I came out I would want to be posthumously transitioned.

      I never chose my AGAB. Don’t assume.