Israeli and Zionist influence in the USA is a purposeful choice of the American government. It allows the American government to circumvent many domestic and international laws by allowing Israeli firms to do the spying and dirty work for them. Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus (and therefore, American capital). This has created a feedback loop of constantly reinforcing settler colonialism and American economic extraction of the Middle East. If America withdrew support to Israel, this feedback loop would cease and Israel would be greatly diminished or completely collapse.
Saying Israel controls America is simply wrong, stop saying this. I will remove your post. ✌️
edit: altered title for clarification and to avoid nonsensical semantic arguments
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I agree that it’s wrong and bad analysis. I could say more about it but mostly I’m just wondering why more poor judgement interventions being made by mod/admin team. Like are you bored or something? Not enough notifications this weekend?
Obviously a policy decree like this without discussion is going to rub people the wrong way regardless of its content. Like obviously. If you are trying to solve some sort of problem, you should say what the problem is and why you think this is the way to solve it. Instead of unilaterally announcing site political policy, apparently on your own individual initiative. Is there like some sort of schedule where carcosa has to have a reason to make an accountability post every so often? Is it over due? Are you attempting to concoct a learning experience to train new mods in crowd control? Trying to boost site traffic? Why would a person in a position of authority decide to make this particular intervention? On any topic.
Have the discussion then make the rule. Good god. Why always doing it the other way around? Announce a rule to provoke a discussion?
It really makes me thump my head in particular for someone who was on the wrong side of the recent
israel-coolstruggle session that was so upsetting to make announcements of site political policy on the same topic. My feeling is that this is a continuation of that conversation. At least this time you have bothered to come up with a coherent political idea so it shows some progress I guess. But it is not tied to the intervention you have decided upon, so still incomplete. It would have been better for someone with more credibility on this issue to introduce the question. Honestly it does seem intentionally inflammatory.To recap:
The mods/admins (including OP kristina) apparently arrived collectively amongst themselves at a completely ass backwards opinion which was in opposition to the entire rest of the userbase. (Briefly for those who missed it: the then-non-existent emoji of the burning israel flag would, if added, be an antisemitic dogwhistle and/or convey approval of the holocaust.) This was a reflection of some sort of prior discussion and ideas which had at the time had some degree of consensus from userbase. In the intervening years, every person on planet earth had their analysis of this issue sharpened at least a little bit, hexbears included, and the general opinion had changed dramatically which was not understood by the mods/admins. Instead of engaging with the political concepts and moment, they decided to instigate and then all piled on a giant shit show throwdown fight. Which when they understood themselves to be losing badly, told the “stupid” users to stop wasting their time posting on trivial matters. Many different aspects of political argument from users only met with inter-personal, conspiratorial, and emotional from mods/admins.
Eventually, “confused” why anybody (to say nothing of everybody else) cared about inconsequential emoji, the mods/admins backed away from the fight, unbanned numerous users, emoji was added by 1 mod who apparently was able to change opinions with rest of planet earth. The userbase was overall managed into a more peaceful situation because ultimately, that’s how the balance of power goes. Various people left the site or withdrew because the conflict was so hostile. The collective political clarification came at a price.
But unless I missed it (and I could have) there was never any resolution. No indication that any of the minority who were on the incoherent side of that argument changed their mind politically during or after the struggle session. Nor was the question of why mods/admins were permitting and even encouraging each other to go around ratcheting up the hostility on the basis of personal disputes.
It was just a stalemate. Mod applications opened and I assume (?) the team expanded, hopefully adding some diversity of opinions to better reflect the userbase. Everyone awaiting vague reforms.
Even kamala harris knows that everything exists in context and we didn’t just fall out of a coconut tree. I am not “relitigating”. I am wondering why again mod deciding to stir shit up by leading with censorious and dismissive assertions instead of attempting to collaborate.
I think this choice does a real disservice to the ostensible goal of the intervention by winding up feelings of interpersonal power struggle with politics. It is so arrogant, in the specific context of the recent chapter described above.
And look, if you are going to lead with threats it ought to be with an argument which has been better developed. It is clear from comments already that userbase again has a more nuanced understanding of the topic than the person who condescendingly lectures and warns of consequences should they step out of line according to her judgement.
Even those who broadly agree with the core ideas are seeking to develop the point further. Because as posted, it is insufficiently mature. Disagreement, discomfort, confusion, and contributions are being made re the politics and/or the policy. This comment is solely addressed at the policy, its implementation and the broader framework.
At minimum, the political stance that is to be enforced on this website requires significant clarification so that users can understand what the rule applies to, and mods can have clear guidance. Which is good for mods because it avoids the perception that that are arbitrarily enforcing ill-considered, unknown and unknowable rules according to their mood. It’s better if there is some degree of mutual understanding rather than initiating with conflict.
Soon will have a bunch of bans I guess? In this very thread there are outright refutations, yet the comments are not removed. So a rule is announced, then it is immediately ignored? On replies that generate a notification to OP who is so interested to enforce. So what is the meaning?
good post. dont think it will do anything though, how many struggle sessions have we had over mod behavior now and they’re still as opaque about their actual goals and intentions as ever? 3 or 4 in the past year alone it feels likeI agree with this post. This is a recurring issue, there’s clearly a problem with how these things are decided.
@CARCOSA@hexbear.net , I asked a while ago in a shitshow of a post I probably shouldn’t have made, but I’m coming back to it now. I think hellinkllla here is highlighting the important point about how we keep coming to this sort of moment.
Good to see you Hellinkilla, and good post. Full agreement from me with every line above.
I’m eating ice cream rn
(edit: dw its not dairy)
@hellinkilla@hexbear.net provided what I thought was well thought out feedback to this moderation post, and I think this is a very dismissive, unproductive reply. Why reply at all?
I agree that it’s wrong and bad analysis. I could say more about it but mostly I’m just wondering why more poor judgement interventions being made by mod/admin team. Like are you bored or something? Not enough notifications this weekend?
I said I was eating icecream :smuglord:
Jesus why the fuck are you being so dismissive? Is this a thing where mods get drunk and do horribly short-sided and harmful things for fun? If it’s an inside joke, have fun I guess, but it’s unbarably cringe and making me doubt trust in mods at all
Starting to see the downside of a site culture built on a subreddit built on irony poisoning.
I think the site culture still maintains some boundaries at which we react seriously to hard work put into a thought or idea. This is just an instance of someone missing that entirely and needing to reflect on that. Maybe it is impossible to maintain these 2 different cultural aspects I guess
Yes, I agree, it’s OK to be ironic sometimes as long as you can be serious when needed. I think the irony has been reduced over the years, but sometimes it can still spill out like this in a completely counterproductive context.
and making me doubt [sic] trust in mods at all
My faith in the mods hit rock bottom during the DNS issue and has remained at rock bottom across all the other struggle sessions of the past year. Seeing this thread, Pippi Longstocking has for the umpteenth time put her hand on my shoulder and told me to make an Eigo Kinshi splinter of Hexbear already… Alas, I remain broke, know jack about computers, and don’t like that sort of attention, anyways.
Kristina, you’re not touching grass, you’re being mean.
this site is toast
As I said, no one is making you reply. You can just say nothing, lol.
If you’re that busy eating ice cream maybe you shouldn’t be a mod
Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus (and therefore, American capital).
What the fuck is this shit? Israel is literally in the process of committing the worst genocide of the 21st century and now we’re getting mod-sponsored hasbara that Israel has no agency and it’s all just America?
Yeah I had let it go after the last one despite only calling multiple times for something to acknowledge the tendencies which I can only really regard as Jewish supremacist (‘the Jewish Israelis can’t be guilty of doing things aside from the US empire, otherwise it’s ZOG’ has to carve out some space and I can’t imagine why else other than Jewish supremacy)
I don’t think the mods are “Jewish supremacist”, they’re afraid of Hexbear looking antisemitic in the eyes of people who don’t distinguish between anti-Israel sentiment and antisemitism. It’s a silly concern IMO since those people already hate Hexbear for being “tankies” and actual antisemitism has always been a bannable offense.
Yeah I don’t intend on accusing anyone of “being Jewish supremacist” just that a tendency to tacitly accept some arguments based in it has occurred. That includes overprotection against anti-Semitism relative to other biases (by overprotection I mean protection against things not actually anti-Semitism so ‘overcorrecting’, not the zeal with which protection is done)
Two parties (America and Israel) can be guilty of genocide
Do you even believe two parties exist? Because you just said that Israel is "entirely controlled " by US intelligence, a group which is famously bad at controlling their various proxies.
This whole thread is starting to feel like
where mods decide that Israel gets special treatment because the reality of what Israel is doing is running a little close to old antisemitic tropes (nevermind that Israel = Judaism is a Zionist idea in the first place).
I’m more inclined to say it’s a mutually beneficial relationship in which the US overlooks Israeli influence (and control) in US politics because of the benefits it gains from Israel. The US could at any time reverse this, by removing its support for Israel, but the issue with this argument is that the US literally never will do this because of both the benefits of Israel to the US in the middle east and the influence(and control) within US politics.
It’s an entanglement. A tangled web of connections that can not be unentangled. They simultaneously control each other and because they will never disentangle they will never cease to simultaneously be controlled by and control the other.
I do think it’s strongly flawed to say the US simple controls Israel by its ability to step back from support though, it’s not a card that can or will ever be used so it functionally does not exist.
Another good, nuanced take that captures why I didn’t like the original post.
the OP is a clumsy attempt to clarify the boundaries of discussion on the site to conform to the comfort of selected individuals. All these nuanced takes are at cross purposes with that. Irrelevant at best because the decision has been made and input not required.
I don’t think the admins are against input. If they were I wouldn’t even be allowed to say this.
What they do from time to time is act clumsy in laying down their boundaries. They’re absolutely right to say it is totally unacceptable to make the far right argument of Israel controlling da wurld. Which is really all that they are saying with this post. The issue is that they get this across in a way that implies there is a problem in the wider userbase’s nuanced takes, which there almost always is not, and when this is taken the wrong way people negatively react because they do not want a chilling effect on debate about the nuanced entanglements.
Yes, I think we need to make an important distinction here. The word “control” is used for two valid, but distinct things: Sometimes it’s used to argue about moral responsibility. Sometimes it’s about strategy in our struggle. Like if one side “controls” the other, are there nodes of control that can be exposed and targeted politically? I think in both cases, the word “control” simplifies the complex relationship, so I won’t use it any more in this. But luckily it’s not needed to answer either question.
About moral responsibility, I think it’s really important to recognize, that powerful people in the US (politicians, generals, billionaires, etc.) are equally responsible for the genocide, just like the ones in Israel. Both can be morally responsible at the same time. The same goes for state institutions. Morally, the ones in the US do have the freedom to withdraw support and that would stop the genocide. It’s not important for moral consideration, that they won’t do that for material reasons. To face this moral truth is important for our propaganda and also a question of respect and solidarity for Palestinians.
The other question is about our strategy. Here, a materialist perspective is needed. From inside the imperial core, pushing for BDS is the obvious strategy, which targets Israel directly. But because of the “tangled web of connections”, which you mentioned, there are also important sides of struggle in the US. And many center around trying to sever at least some of those connections: the ones between universities in the US and Israel for example. US firms with close ties to Israel are another. There are others and these sides of struggle can be understood as an extensions of BDS.
Politically targeting legislature, think tanks, members of congress with ties to Israel is another logical strategy. It’s best to concentrate on few targets instead of spreading our efforts out. Like snipping one strang of a complicated knot at a time instead of trying to rip it all apart at once.
This strategy does not mean, that we believe a complete severance of the connections between the US and Israel is possible. It is not. Even, if Israel was magically destroyed tomorrow, the US would invent a new one. But similar to a labor struggle in which a single strike can’t abolish capitalism, anti-imperialist actions can still gain wins, even if the whole of imperialism isn’t abolished yet.
I also agree with this
deleted by creator
Hey so when are we getting that official constructive session on Zionism in the mod/admin team? Just chucking things like this over the fence doesn’t count by the way.
Example: “Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus (and therefore, American capital).”
This is incorrect and Zionist apologetic and I think it’s being thrown in because of focusing on a right wing trope that absolves US blame, but it is actually an overcorrection. Same as the Zionist entity flag burning emoji. Instead of overcorrecting and making escalatory announcements, you should really actually do that constructive session to deal with Zionism in the mod and admin team, which I will remind you is tantamount to Nazi sympathy in the mod and admin team.
I usually defend the mods here somewhat because I think they’re trying their best, but yes, that whole thing was never properly addressed and clearly isn’t over.
if they were trying their best, they would take seriously the many, many concerns people have had about a lack of accountability, transparency, and community input over the past year. instead they continue to make decisions in a black box matrix server where they shittalk the userbase - the people that actually make this site worthwhile despite its many, deep problems - and run cover for abusive members of the community if those people are their personal friends or they find them funny enough or they align on some pet issue. i’m not mad at your comment to be clear, i’ve agreed with your analysis across this whole struggle sesh and am pointing out what i think the real core issue here is.
shit, i wanted to find the right time/place to make a nerdy effortpost about how people are operating on an oversimplified view of what a “vassal state” is, how there’s a base superstructure feedback loop here where US imperialism is the root cause, but belief in Zionism w/in the ruling class takes on a life of its own and informs the base, but that’s not worth it right now because it’s clear people’s analyses on israel aren’t the issue and neither is antisemitism. it’s site management refusing to take an L, self crit, change site processes, and then continuing to cudgel the userbase with their radlib liberal zionist brainworms they refuse to grow on. (and to be just slightly conciliatory, yes, mods are not a monolith - when i say “the mods, the admins, site management” i mean admins and the powermods they allow the most sway over the community).
shit, i wanted to find the right time/place to make a nerdy effortpost about how people are operating on an oversimplified view of what a “vassal state” is, how there’s a base superstructure feedback loop here where US imperialism is the root cause, but belief in Zionism w/in the ruling class takes on a life of its own and informs the base, but that’s not worth it right now because it’s clear people’s analyses on israel aren’t the issue and neither is antisemitism.
Please do still make that post if you can! Despite the disappointing mod behavior, I still think that that would be an interesting post and would generate an interesting discussion.
maybe in a chiller comm once the struggle session dies down
it was mostly gonna be some basic marxism 101 about how base-superstructure operates
idk they’re probably too busy shit talking the userbase in their matrix chat
We don’t need to pretend that the exact opposite of “zog” is true just to prove the nazi’s wrong. We cant ignore Israel’s own agency here. The contradiction of believing their own ethnic supremacy while being wholly dependent on the US is part of the Israeli psychosis. It has driven them to control as much of US politics as possible. First as a matter of survival, then as a matter of pride. We can’t pretend that individual US political and media figures aren’t controlled by the Israel lobby just because the US as a whole controls Israel.
Israel is essentially a rogue state that is entirely controlled by the American intelligence apparatus
You can’t be a “rogue state” yet be “entirely controlled”. That would be a puppet state. They could be controlled but aren’t. The leash is almost always slack. Also the leash isn’t the " American intelligence apparatus", its the federal budget.
Edit: Your title is flaming bullshit, like WTF? Israel absolutely does control many US politicians. Who the fuck is Ritchie Torres then? Jamal Bowman and Cory Bush just disappeared on their own.
as pertaining to your edit, ted cruz literally said he’s in american politics to be israel’s biggest supporter lol. 100% in it for the israeli dollars, not at all for texans. so yeah, i don’t know about this post. i don’t like antisemitism. i think it’s gross and should be bannable. i’m not sure i have EVER seen anyone being antisemitic on hexbear. even once.
The mod teams reeks of UK labor ideas of antisemitism and is being absurdly reductionist.
I (USA) bought a dog(Israel) specifically for fighting the neighbours’ dog(all Muslims), I put it on a leash(literal money and weapons) the length of my block(the world) and now it’s biting everyone(everyone). Somehow this means my dog now owns me.
Have you never seen somebody walk a dog that they couldn’t control? The dog gets an idea in its head and pulls its owner who can’t pull back the leash? Not saying your analogy doesn’t hold… more like it’s too accurate lol
Well, the dog can sometime nip/bark/bite back if really displeased (idk how else to comment on the ability of Israel to threaten the US with nukes if it fails to react positively enough, and the ability of Israel to act in the short term in ways that the US has to stop it from hurting themselves and the owner)
The dog however, will be abandoned or euthanized if it does that too often
Sure, so it’s more complex than either simplification. I agree. The limits are set by the overarching empire, but working within those limits, and even shifting those limits through shifting the context, are still possible by the vassal
Why are we pretending that nation-states are singular entities with their own “wills”? They are networks of intelligent actors exchanging information and “energy” (money in this case). The “israel” net is heavily overlapped with the “america” net, and there is a large flow of information/energy across the 2 nets. The “america” net being much larger gives more of its energy to “israel” than vice versa, but the word “control” is meaningless for describing interactions as complicated geopolitics.
A lot of the discourse around this whole topic uses the verbal short-hand of treating nation-states as if they were entities with a will. And for good reason because a lot of the times, it’s an OK approximation. But other times, you just end up arguing about meaningless things.
Very good post. Agreed 100%
lol jfc. Sure let’s say control is the wrong word. Does Israel heavily influence American politics? Yes. If you think saying that is anti Semitic you might be a Democratic candidate. It’s a symbiotic relationship at this point. We’ve been blaming America already for a while now, blaming Israel is new to us. 15 years ago if i heard the word zionist, it was some white supremacist shit. It’s also not our fault they are an ethnostate.
capital controls the US and if elections were publicly funded and no PACs were allowed then there would be no AIPAC to control US policy in israel’s favor
with that being said i absolutely do not support removing people’s posts simply for saying israel controls the US. its definitely a miscalculated statement but unless its specifically about jewish people then removing comments like that, intentionally or not does not help with the “israel controls america” shit they already think. i think its also kinda fucked up to take people’s ability to voice their frustrations about the state of our country away. so many laws in the US exist to protect israel. so much of our politics is just “how would you protect israel?”. everyone on tv is a zionist spewing israeli propaganda. you’re gonna push people to the wrong side of hating israel if you start removing posts criticizing the israeli state, which has nothing to do with jewish people
i just do not see anything wrong with saying X country controls Y country. people are allowed to be wrong. if they make it about jews then yeah remove and ban because thats not someone who can be educated or reasoned with but israel is a state and they do not represent jewish people so i just really don’t see how its useful for anything other than unintentionally protecting israel from criticism
saying israel controls the US
I also wanna note ive never even characterized it like this, i’ve been pushing back on the seeming idea that there’s NO INFLUENCE AT ALL, WHATSOEVER, which seems really hard to believe when we’re literally discussing it because of the existence of a PAC that exists for the express purpose of influencing American politics, and this is like the above board influencing project that is KNOWN about. The country that sent thousands of explosive pagers to do a terror attack isn’t going to even attempt to influence its “liege” state to keep giving it whatever the fuck it wants? It’s easy enough to just throw your hands up and be like “well the U.S. is just going to give them whatever they want anyway” but that isn’t really exactly a stellar analysis and it’s just the result of thinking “well, it’s the unsinkable aircraft carrier, america NEEDS it” and terminating thought there. Great job you really solved it!
P.s. regarding AIPAC i noted in another comment bemoaning associating them with being foreign that their literal fucking name emphasizes their being Israeli first, it’s “American Israeli” not the “Israeli american” PAC. That’s a choice. It’s like how calling the CPC the “chinese communist party” tries to paint them as a Han nationalist thing whereas the “Communist Party of China” doesn’t.
I salute our hardworking mods for their roof-knocking posts announcing they will be demolishing any replies or posts that contain the antisemitic lie of israel using money, clout, intelligence or media to influence other nations. Israel represents all Jewish people around the world and one word can be substituted for another when determining if post or reply is vile antisemitism or just garden variety political speech. Thank you for standing up for our forums suffering Israeli posters who just want to be able to use the respected adl’s definition of antisemitism like the rest of social media does.
If it weren’t for your commitment to holding the most expensive brand of paint chip up to people’s words before applying rules this place would fall into utter chaos.
Pissrael is just a smol puppet
There is a huge difference between Israel controlling politicians and it controlling the US government overall. The latter is ridiculous and antisemitic and false, but the former is true. AIPAC only exists because the US lets it exist, but it and other projects the US permits are obviously strong influences on some US politicians.
It’s sort of a weird situation, but denying the effect of Israel directly lobbying people or acting like every instance of lobbying is based on the unilateral dictate of the US rather than existing in a broader framework of the US allowing Israel to pursue an agenda of buying zionism because that is beneficial to US foreign interests anyway is silly.
Any post or comment doing zog shit needs mod action, though. The highest authority here is America and that should never be obscured.
There is a huge difference between Israel controlling politicians and it controlling the US government overall. The latter is ridiculous and antisemitic and false, but the former is true. AIPAC only exists because the US lets it exist, but it and other projects the US permits are obviously strong influences on some US politicians.
THANK YOU. Why are we taking the position of literally ignoring reality here? Of course many American politicians are under the influence of the “Israeli” lobby. It’s precisely because “Israel” relies on American support that this is the case. It allows them to maintain that support even when their actions are deeply unpopular in America and sometimes harmful to American interests, while still continuing those actions.
It’s sort of a weird situation, but denying the effect of Israel directly lobbying people or acting like every instance of lobbying is based on the unilateral dictate of the US rather than existing in a broader framework of the US allowing Israel to pursue an agenda of buying zionism because that is beneficial to US foreign interests anyway is silly.
Exactly this. The net result is that while “Israel” can only exist with American support, it’s a sovereign state with nuclear weapons that also exerts some amount of influence on US politics and has its own, sometimes divergent interests. The idea that it’s just a puppet leads people to try to force every “Israeli” action into the mold of “how does this benefit America” and come to completely incorrect conclusions. Sometimes “Israel” does things that benefit America because they also benefit “Israel”, very rarely (only when forced) “Israel” does things that benefit America and harm “Israel”, but most often “Israel” does things that benefit “Israel” without much regard for the benefit of others because it’s a sovereign state (with nuclear weapons).
Some people on this site are claiming that this absolves the US of responsibility (which isn’t true), but by that logic the framing of “Israel” as a tool of America and nothing else absolves “Israel” of responsibility, which I think is much more grotesque.
I wonder how this compares to the UK and France, given that they also have hundreds of nuclear weapons.
The UK and France are also sovereign states. They’re not American puppets, and any analysis that they are is fundamentally unserious.
Well, I was just thinking about how people are saying that it’s reductive to say that one country strictly controls another, but at the same time it feels reductive to me to act like having nuclear weapons grants a country complete, supreme, perfect, and total sovereignty over itself. But you aren’t saying that, anyways: you’re saying that (intelligent actors within) both the Zionist entity and Seppoland can and do influence each other and can be pushed by the other to do things that go against their own interests, despite both polities being nuclear states.
Now your analysis of mutual influence to me seems absolutely correct, but I still think it raises the question of what the limits of nuclear weapons are when it comes to guaranteeing national sovereignty, and what the mechanisms of influence tend to be between two nuclear states. Because puppets or not, it still feels fair to say that the Zionist entity, UK, and France are all below Seppoland in the “pecking order”, right? When painting in broad strokes, at least. So I figured it might be useful to compare and contrast these four polities’ relationships to each other, basically. That this might be a way to land on a more holistic and accurate understanding of the dynamics at play.
Because puppets or not, it still feels fair to say that the Zionist entity, UK, and France are all below Seppoland in the “pecking order”, right?
Absolutely. I think you bring up great points and it’s an interesting discussion to have. I agree 100% that just having nuclear weapons doesn’t automatically grant perfect sovereignty. Nothing does that. I’m only saying that puppet states don’t develop their own nuclear weapons.
But you aren’t saying that, anyways: you’re saying that (intelligent actors within) both the Zionist entity and Seppoland can and do influence each other and can be pushed by the other to do things that go against their own interests, despite both polities being nuclear states.
Yes, basically this. And of course the power balance there skews towards the US (how could it not).
airstrip one, but of course they do plenty of things on their own for their own reasons.
The US uses Israel in order to control American politics though. It’s like taking the position of “Stop saying the CIA is evil and does regime change, the United States is evil and does regime change.”
there’s a nazi “zog” conspiracy theory where the tail is supposedly completely in control of the dog, and this is obviously not true.
then there’s whatever aipac is doing and there’s absolutely infighting like when they redistricted bowman out of a seat, and it seems weird not to call that proximate cause israeli interests rather than american interests because the US doesn’t give a fuck about a couple congressional reps half-assing criticism but not actually impeding the genocide.
There is also an attempt to launder America’s reputation by saying Israel is in control. Anything innocent little America did in the middle east can be attributed to Israel with this framing, which is what the American intelligence apparatus would love everyone to think.
I was accused of this today but like I don’t give a fuck about “laundering America’s reputation” I just think “the U.S. is 100% in control” is just as reductionist and inaccurate as “Israel is actually in control.”
I say shit like “i think the relationship is a little more complicated than it simply being a puppet because it gets away with shit no other U.S. vassal does i.e. sinking the U.S.S. Liberty” and I get accused of ZOG shit which is really
on my end.
Saying that America just controls “Israel” is almost us much cope as the other way around. It’s not antisemitism to say that the “Israel” lobby has more influence and less limitations than other “puppet” states.America could threaten to withdraw support and “Israel” would fold instantly, but American politicians almost never do this, even when “Israel” acts against their interests. “Israelis” do actually have some influence on America and “Israel” has a degree of autonomy not offered to puppet states. That doesn’t make America less guilty, it’s still the case that they could stop “Israel” at any time. The fact is that they generally don’t, even when it would be in their interests.
Especially when Israel has nukes. If nukes give North Korea autonomy from US control, they definitely give Israel autonomy from the US as well.
Yeah i agree
Ikr, the first people the Trump-II regime went after were anti-Zionist permanent residents and non-citizens, not those who criticized the U.S. Gov. Puppets have leeway in doing crimes on U.S. soil, but none are comparable to Israel.
Israel could do like 10 9/11s and the only consequence they’d see is Current President flying straight there to ask Netanyahu if he’s sure he doesn’t want an 11th
Id call Germany or Ukraine vassal states of the U.S. but i absolutely could not imagine a scenario where like a bunch of AFD nazis blow shit up and the Germans aren’t made to show subservience
…i don’t think anybody on hexbear is saying shit about israel to launder the image of america.
You would be surprised :yea:
But no not usually the 5 years people
i’m confused what the issue is or who this post is directed at then.
if you’re saying you’re gonna delete antisemitic posts, good, i support that. but if in the last 5yrs it hasn’t been an issue, what is this post about?
Dig through the modlog yourself there’s been a lot of garbage lately.
5 years club rise up.
I have a suspicion that in order to have this conversation here any Israel/AIPAC post needs to be signed with “Of course, death to America”
Better yet, append it to all posts. And everyday the top post must be مرگ بار امريكا
Would that be such a bad thing? Of course, death to America.
I yearn for the destruction of America all day, every day. I have a searing hatred for this country that will never die.
And, of course, death to America
Fascism is because of russia and the genocide is because of israel. Obama was also a kenyan spy. See we didn’t do anything /s
Tails don’t have nukes and intelligence agencies. We can do better than thought terminating aphorisms.
i should hope we can do better than nazi conspiracies yes
You also can’t let the nazis be the only one saying the sky is blue. Saying “Israel doesn’t control US politicians” (OPs original title) is absolute bullshit, you and everyone else knows it.
The US left has been ranting about the Israel lobby for decades but now that some on the right recognize it too you’re asking us to stop. Think critically and not reactively.
The “Israel lobby” isn’t just Israelis, is the thing. It’s also the military industrial complex that relies on Israel as an infinite market for bombs and the huge cult of Protestant churches that support Israel as a crusader state and as a harbinger of the End Times.
I never said the relationship entirely one sided to Israel. I’m saying its not one sided at all. Its fraught with contraductions which drives lots of dynamics.
All of those factions both independently support Israel but are also cultivated and supported by Israel as a matter of national security. Its very symbiotic.
What is absolute bullshit is taking the maximally reductionist approach the mods are saying which is a complete puppet state of the US and Israel has no control over the US whatsoever.
I don’t even think it’s correct to even think of the US and Israel as separate entities. The Israel lobby is also a US lobby because Israel is the 51st state. Unlike Europe which has become essentially a neocolony for US export markets and is subservient to US interests, Israel is a second head on the same snake. They’re one nation united by Manifest Destiny+Zionism.
It’s a partnership to impose imperialism on the middle east and fascism on the United States. Thinking about one or the other being “in control” is the wrong framing. They’re two hands of the same body. AIPAC has the level of influence it does domestically because it is useful to US oligarchs as a tool to control domestic politics and suppress dissent. It’s a match made in hell.
We can thank the British for both countries
i agree with this
Oh we got 2 threads about this. I’ll post the same thing in both. I will not argue with anyone about this.
“Isreal has a powerful lobby with lots of Western backing and a far reaching influence as a result” is fine.
“I’m gonna use neo Nazi terminology that originates from white supremacist conspiracy views about how Jews secretly control everything” is not.
It’s honestly not even that complicated. One is factual. The other is neo Nazi propaganda. Hexbear can do better. Death death to the IOF
the issue here is that nobody seems to know who or what the fuck yall are talking about with this nazi propaganda supposedly being an issue on hexbear. who here can say they’ve run into antisemites or antisemitism here? i’ve read about a billion posts on this site criticizing israel, israel’s influence in western governments. not once have i read any sort of antisemitic conspiracy theories, it’s all based entirely in material analysis and using our own eyeballs and ears.
some mod can make a post like this, then suddenly criticizing aipac is antisemitic and posts about who is taking money from israel, or about how you have to sign a loyalty pledge to israel to be a fuckin mailman in the US will be removed for “antisemitism”
i really think mods need to hold some sort of vote on this, because judging by the replies in this thread the userbase seems to really not know what yall are on. i can’t speak for everyone ofc but i do not wanna use a website that conflates criticisms of the zionist entity with being antisemitic. hexbear is quite literally the only place online where at least right now, you can freely criticize israel without being censored or fearing that you’re secretly interacting with a bunch of nazis. granted i dont look at the mod log, maybe there are a ton of antisemites washing their antisemitism with criticisms of israels. i definitely don’t see it tho and it doesn’t seem like anyone else on this site does either?
They’re probably on edge because of this:
Then they should clarify their intentions.
People in this thread investigating and speculating regarding the motivations of site mods/admins as though they were Q. Why can’t mods/admins speak for themselves to a clear way? Making everyone chase them around like this is such strange undisciplined behavior.
My impression previously was that mods/admins understand this kind of scrutiny on their every action is possible but like anyone else don’t want to have the whole site breathing down their necks while they work. Taking such puzzling actions heavily encourages people to monitor them all the time which in the long run will only be uncomfortable for them. It would be much smarter to take the time to write something up instead of relying on others to sniff up the breadcrumbs and put together a theory of mind on that basis.
lol that’s the first time i’ve ever seen anyone use that term on this site. i do think that should be removed, to be clear. with that being said, i would also look at that user’s profile history and see what kinda stuff they post. their name is familiar but i don’t know them off the top of my head. it could be that they just saw that term and used it not knowing what it really meant and thought it was just short term for zionist or some shit. no reason to see one person use a term 3 days ago then make a post about the widespread antisemitism on this site and acting like you’re gonna start cracking down on it
I’ve seen it here n there. And swift, consistent mod action will obviously discourage it. So it it somewhat a case where absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. On the other instances I have seen a lot and it looks to be very difficult to effectively moderate once the claws get in.
But I agree with you that this OP is confusing and unhelpful. I have no idea why (or even if) anybody thought this would be productive towards the stated goal.
So in order to understand the rules by which the site is governed, everyone needs to read this whole thread, now approaching 100 comments and surely will get many more, to find this special one that has the correct articulation?
No, to understand the rules by which the site is governed people can go read the code of conduct which is linked at the bottom of every page
