I often find Americans abroad to be quite charming in how American they are. Certainly, there are some that are obnoxious (and even their friendliness can be obnoxiousness in a way), but it can be quite endearing; Americans (especially the ones you meet while travelling) are so outgoing, and they’re so keen to make connections with people. Like, is it cringe when an American says “oh my great great grandfather was Scottish”, as if makes any difference at all that they are 1/16 Scottish? Yeah, somewhat. But after a friend explained to me that she sees it as coming from a deep desire to connect with other people, I began to see it as quite sweet.
It’s part of why I grieve for what’s going on in America right now. “American-ness” is a messy, mixed concept, and it would be unreasonable to ignore how much of that concept is deeply problematic. However, I feel that there is goodness within that concept, and the people in power at the moment seem hell bent on destroying or undermining what goodness exists there.
America used to have plenty of pickpocketing, but it’s pretty much gone away for a few reasons:
- Pickpocket apprenticeships have fallen by the wayside, and the actual skills to be able to pull this off are no longer taught to young people.
- The rise of cashless payment norms reduce the reward for a successful pickpocket: canceled credit cards won’t do anything for anyone.
- America is a violent place, and it’s easier to steal with violence or the threat of violence.
- Other types of sneaky nonviolent theft have arisen, and things like identity theft or hacking or other fraud is an alternative outlet for those who might want to non-violently steal someone else’s money.
All this will likely happen in Europe, as well. Just maybe a slower transition in the pockets where cash is still common (tourist destinations with international travelers).
My wife and I were Honeymooning in Paris, purchasing subway passes from an automated kiosk, when a guy who was pretending to be really interested in his phone started getting uncomfortably close to her. She felt him touch her, so she elbowed him real hard, knocking the phone out of his hand, and yelling, “Oh no, are you OK, I’m so sorry, I broke your phone!” real loud (which was true, she cracked his screen). I don’t think he was expecting a 5’2" woman to assault him, because he grabbed his broken phone and started booking it before I could react.
A very nice Parisian came over and told us we needed to be more careful and watch ouf for thieves. We thanked him, but my wife was laughing a few moments later because she just assumed he was a pervert. I thought maybe the phone screen had already been broken, and he was trying to run some sort of, “Hey, you broke my phone, give me money!” scam but chickened out when he saw how aggressively my wife reacted. We live in a major American city, so we’ve experienced crime before, but it never occurred to us that he was trying to pick her pocket. Felt almost quaint, like a Dickens novel.
I live in a tourist trap area of the US and got pick pocketed once shortly after moving here. So I am real cautious of strangers getting close. After doing the Pokemon go rounds one night some dude started following me, and the girl I was dating at the time, from the gas station. I come from a much more densely populated area of the US so I immediately recognized it as a threat, and told her to keep walking and I would catch up. I’ll admit I was a little too aggressive given the situation, cause I saw a “come to jesus” moment in homie’s eyes when he realized how big the dude he was stalking was(I’m easily two standard deviations to the right of bell curve in terms of largeness, but I’m also proportional so most don’t realize it on sight).
I would say I felt bad, but after getting my walker taken and having to go through the bullshit involved, I wasn’t about to take a chance. Funny thing is, the girl actually broke up with me cause of that incident and immediately got with a meth head who took her and her family for what they could.
This story, much like life, has no point other than keep your wallet in a very noticable area.
Edit: Walker=wallet, though i’m not far from a reliance on either.
It’s weird moving to places where the relative danger of different crimes vary.
I grew up in a place where I was mugged at knife point a couple of times. It was a pretty socioeconomically deprived area where this wasn’t normal, but it wasn’t super abnormal either. One of the times I was mugged, I was in a pretty bad place with my mental health, and I said “if you want my phone, then just fucking stab me for it, because I don’t give a fuck anymore”. The guy mugging me seemed to recognise me as someone going through some shit, and became super sympathetic. He even asked me if there was anything he could do to help. A friend who was mugged (at knifepoint) in the same rough area one responded by saying “oh come off it, mate” and continuing walking. It’s like there was a weird sense of solidarity, because we all knew we lived in a shit hole place with no prospects.
I later moved to a much safer city, where being out at night felt tremendously safe. Now, I live in a larger city, and none of my previously cultivated instincts for safety are the right fit. I know that I must be more cautious here than I was in the small, posh city I lived in, but also I feel that the kind of caution I need here is quite different to what was necessary in my home town. Without a calibrated sense of risk in this new city, I often find myself being overly cautious. I suppose that’s a safer side of caution to err on.
You know what’s funny? I got robbed at gunpoint in front of my house. I was wearing a knock off Ulysse Nardin watch, and they didn’t even touch it. They got about $30 from the wallet before being arrested. And no, the cops never gave me my $30.
If I had my wallet stolen, the worst part of it would be having to renew id and stuff. It’s a lot of faff
Real talk. I would’ve gladly given up the money for an easier time getting everything back together.
Not entirely positive that this happened. I mean the Americans beating pickpockets. I’m sure it could have happened, but I live in France and was here and never heard about this…
There is a Medium post (https://scribe.rip/the-bad-influence/americans-in-paris-ready-to-rumble-with-pick-pocketers-f62b169abccd) but there isn’t a single French news source (that I can easily find) related to this ever happening.
If anyone deserves a good beating it’s pickpockets.
Not too surprised. Living in the US, giving a shit about the safety of owned property is pretty much the only thing you can count on.
Property is more important than lives. Where else would people literally say they’d shoot someone for going on “their” land.
In the US, we have a phrase for the mindset you’re describing:
“Fuck you, I got mine.”
That phrase is absolutely not said about self defense…
Classic American, extending their personhood to the items they own. Get a grip, your wallet is not you and you’re not defending yourself if it’s stolen.
Your inability to grasp that people value the product of their time as much as their time itself shows you are pathetically disconnected from reality yourself. Grow up and stop relying on mommy and daddy’s allowance they give you for doing nothing with your sad life.
In another comment you talk about fascists taking over the world, yet here you are, spouting what a fascist would say in regards to private property, while a socialist would understand the difference between personal property and private property and understands the dangers of the latter. Get educated, schlub. You’re spouting the kind of idiocy that enabled the fascists to take over.
Also I’m in my forties living with cancer in the USA where the treatments cost $18k a month without insurance. Dear god I only wish I had mommy and daddy taking care of me.
I don’t know about you, but my wallet only holds plastic cards… All of which can be cancelled, replaced, and any money spent by the thief returned and restored. The only thing it takes up is a small amount of my personal time. So I really haven’t lost anything at all. I don’t know why you’re so geared up to fuck someone up over such a small inconvenience.
Your semmantic games are not appreciated. Fuck off dummy.
Not necessarily, but it’s an easy way to describe our view of others in our society in general. Not much faith in our fellow humans.
Because replacing said property costs money, money they generally don’t have. Being poor in the US is a cruel hell and they don’t seem to plan on fixing it any time soon so violence it is.
Yep. Don’t ever bother with de-escalation when you know no safety net will save you. You have to go all in, or you are left behind, or dead.
Not the world I like living in, but that’s the world I’m currently living in. Hell, my father was robbed several times growing up, so he made sure to teach my sibling and I how to be wary and catch people in the act.
Yep. Don’t ever bother with de-escalation when you know no safety net will save you. You have to go all in, or you are left behind, or dead.
I love love love how everyone just assumes they will win these fights and they won’t end up dead anyway trying to protect their pittance of property. What a fucking unhinged way to live.
Guess what, you don’t always win just because you’re in the right.
I certainly don’t like the situation, but the amount of people who are chomping at the bit to attack others are far greater than those who don’t want to. I would likely have to hand over everything if I had a gun pointed at me, but usually the best way to avoid that risk is to avoid being there. Staying away from crowds, either trying to bluff/strike/capitulate with those who try to attack you, or just not trusting anyone.
This is why bystander effect is a real issue when it comes to situations in the US where people are injured or need help - the risk of being robbed, defrauded, or sued means it’s a far easier choice to keep moving and not think about those around you.
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Killing people over things do sound american lmao
As we say in the USA:
“The police don’t protect us, we protect us”
There are 7 police officers in my town of 13k. We say “Sometimes there’s justice and sometimes there’s just us”
Whole lee shit this is good! I’ve always heard the adage “when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.”
And that’s true for both where I’m from(Miami) and where I moved to(the corner of bum fucked & nowhere)
I mean sure, it do be like that but also my old roommate, who never locked his car and kept weed and his work tools in it overnight, every night, walked around our neighborhood with a pistol “looking” for the guys who stole the aforementioned tools and weed.
It happened 3 times…there’s something wrong with alot of us
Did he think that gave him a legal precedent? Like isn’t owning weed and a gun a felony in and of itself?
Edit: currently depends which federal court circuit’s jurisdiction you fall under. Might get brought to the supreme court at some point? Either way there’s legal precedent that makes that iffy. Which is fair. Weed should be legal, and despite this asshole, I trust stoners more than habitual drinkers or the GOP and their constituents.
Either way the guy was obviously a fuckin’ issue, and was committing several other federal offenses lol.
In my jurisdiction, yes. Any drug offense combined with possessing a firearm is an automatic felony. Even if the drug offense by itself would have been a misdemeanor. It is a very bad idea, legally speaking.
Lol no he was just mad. And weed is legal in Cali. Guns are too but I’d be willing to be that one was street bought
Owning the gun is not a felony weed yes
That’s kinda cool seeing how apparently you guys do put your money where your mouth is 😄 I wish we talked about that kinda stuff more and not just about the bad. I feel like remembering that not every aspect of being American sucks might give people a better reason to resist too.
Americans are naturally anarchist, we just have a shitload of bootlicker propaganda shoved on us at all times and too many people buy it
Thieves in the US will just pull a gun on you and turn it into a robbery. It’s simply safer for them to come out of the gate with you at an obvious disadvantage.
Can you draw your weapon before they can pull their trigger? Go ahead, punk. Make my day.
Yeah, this seems to be the most plausible answer here, assuming the baseline claim is true.
It tooke me years to understand that in the US apparently instead of burglars just breaking in, stealing stuff and leaving, “home invasions” are a thing, where people are facing armed robbery in their houses, often including rape. It seems that in the US crime often has a much more violent and hateful component to it than in other western countries.
Around 5 years ago, still in reddit I did a comparison between US and EU crime rates. Despite my prejudice against the US most crimes were fairly similar (robberies, burglaries, assault), it was homicides where the US goes batshit insane.
I believe it must be the availability of guns (even on the defending side, making the criminals more aggressive) that makes a homicide happen alongside a robbery where it does not in EU.
I think it also helps to imagine the irresponsible, aggressive, jackass. A common enough fellow amongst many cultures in their own variety. In most of europe this individual is restricted to bar fights and other less lethal means of conflict. In Switzerland, most folks have a gun but also have military training with it and are less likely to have the issues that cause American veterans to be more likely to be violent.
Meanwhile here in America this jackass can buy a gun after jumping through a few hoops depending on what state. Not only can they own a gun, they may be culturally encouraged to whether it’s because of macho posturing, rural lifestyle, or because of any other number of reasons such as being a minority in the Midwest. Once armed the jackass has the means to engage in high emotional violence. Every “I’ll fucking kill you” that is normally accompanied with a fist may come with lead instead.
Eh our burglaries sometimes turn into sexual violence too even without guns involved. And it should be unferstoo that “home invasion” means everything from a quick burglary while you’re out of town to an armed robbery with rape. But yeah it’s important to understand that we do overly focus on the latter and ignore that the former is far more likely even here, but thieves in America often have guns. Crime is disproportionately violent here, but we also are really focused on the most violent crime because it’s sensational and serves as common excuses for bigotry and for gun ownership.
Like when I suffered a home invasion I became acutely aware of how few people I knew had experienced such a thing (and were willing to volunteer that information). So many people own a gun to deal with a violent robbery with rape, yet few know anyone who’s experienced that, a gun kept safely is unlikely to help, and they’re significantly more likely to be harmed by their own gun than someone else’s.
I call it colonial trauma. Our forefathers would rape the help and the worse that would happen is getting berated by the judge.
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sidenote, the reading of a thread on twitter is hellish. Top to bottom be damned, it’s like 3 different UIs in one.
Especially if there’s a little addon from Tumblr at the end of something.
why isnt the reddit type formatting good enough?!When US Americans get painted this way, it feels like a “Humans- Fuck Yeah” story. Like I’m just so used to us having our downsides highlighted that it feels special to be seen for a positive attribute
It’s a bit like learning that Russian cargo ships don’t get boarded by pirates because they’ll just start fucking shooting.
Say what you want about Russians, that kind of rules.
Russians are the scariest white people.
Finland slaughtered them something like with a ver lopsided ratio in the winter war. The Finns are pretty white.
Yeah, but Finns are pretty nice (if socially awkward) when you don’t fuck with them. Wouldn’t count on that with Russians.
Russians can be nice too, it’s just that mostly, not unlike the Finnish, they don’t give a fuck about you in general.
Only if you’re their wives after a few bottles.
Russians are pathetic malnourished drunkards, not scary.
Hey, nothing scarier than a drunk dumbass with little to lose. Same reason crossing the wrong Americans is trouble, too.
TIL Ukrainians aren’t white
/S
Ukrainians aren’t as scary as Russians, they don’t go invading other countries.
Yeah if I shared a border with Ukraine I wouldn’t be the least bit scared of them. If I shared a border with Russia I’d have a nuclear program.
I feel like these stories provide second-hand catharsis, but I don’t know if it’s necessarily a positive light.
Yeah seems like committing a violent crime in response to a petty crime to me.
Yes, but in America it is acceptable to shoot an unarmed teenager running away for stealing a candy bar, so not exactly preaching to the choir here
Hell, there’s at least one story of a black teenager being shot because he rang someone’s doorbell to ask for help.
I don’t agree with characterizing being robbed from as not a big deal, especially when it’s as physically intimate as pickpocketing.
Maybe it’s no big deal to lose a bit of money if you’re rich, but I would be truly fucked to lose my phone or wallet, and more than inconvenienced to lose money or objects which would need to be replaced with money.
But more than that is the sense of violation. What gives someone the right to come into my home or put hands on my body and take my personal things? It’s dehumanizing. It feels disgusting to be treated that way. Of course I’m going to defend myself.
Pickpocketing is non violent. It is theft.
Robbery involves the use or threat of violence. It is a violent crime.
The two should not be conflated in either direction. Also pickpocketing does not happen at peoples homes, but in public spaces. This is different from break-ins which are a more serious crime as they violate the private living spaces of people on top of violating their property rights.
My reponse would be extremely violent if I were to be pick pocketed that’s for sure. I would not even feel bad at their injuries.
And no one would feel bad when the police in a country with reasonable laws takes you to jail for assaulting someone because of petty theft.
What is this Judge Dredd garbage people from the US often seem so proud of? That stand your ground thinking is only accepted in the violent bubble you guys seem to live in and accept as normal. It’s not normal anywhere else. This is why your police can kill unarmed people on video every week with zero consequences, and with no one batting an eye. Even in the most repressive societies, the security forces have the good sense of killing people in secret, not on video every week. This level of violence is not normal, and you as a regular person don’t benefit by internalizing it as your personal life philosophy.
You weren’t raised by wolves. You wouldn’t get it.
Edit* Found and read the article, it never said the Americans beating up the pickpockets got charged with anything. Shit one had fake elctric wallets to shock the shit out of thieves and only got em confiscated. Seems to me more beat downs would be welcome by the French police of pick pockets. Unless they’re on the take.
Your attempt at the high road is hilariously pathetic and ignorant to the world.
Pickpocketing is robbery, my guy.
Just because it is done stealthily doesn’t mean i wasn’t robbed of my goods
Pickpocketing is a form of larceny that involves the stealing of money or other valuables from the person or a victim’s pocket without them noticing the theft at the time.
Robbery[a] is the crime of taking or attempting to take anything of value by force, threat of force, or use of fear. According to common law, robbery is defined as taking the property of another, with the intent to permanently deprive the person of that property, by means of force or fear; that is, it is a larceny or theft accomplished by an assault.[2] Precise definitions of the offence may vary between jurisdictions. Robbery is differentiated from other forms of theft (such as burglary, shoplifting, pickpocketing, or car theft) by its inherently violent nature (a violent crime); whereas many lesser forms of theft are punished as misdemeanors, robbery is always a felony in jurisdictions that distinguish between the two.
Yeah let’s get dragged into semantics.
Does violence only happen in physical form? Because the time I was pickpocketed left me paranoid for years. The violence inflicted upon me didn’t leave me physically hurting, you’re definitely correct there.
It left me emotionally fucked for years.
I think you’re mixing up the words “theft” and “robbery”. Robbery always specifically indicates violence.
I don’t think whether an attack is physically violent should play a role in whether someone is allowed to use violence to defend themselves. Plenty of forms of sexual assault are non-violent in the sense that they don’t cause bodily harm to the victim, but I still think you should be allowed to resort to violent methods of stopping/preventing them. Things like gropings, upskirt photography, etc are a form of psychological violence in my opinion.
This is different from break-ins which are a more serious crime as they violate the private living spaces of people on top of violating their property rights.
What is the reasoning behind this distinction? Are you suggesting it’s okay to defend your home with violence?
To come at this from another angle, do you think theft should be legal? If not, why is it okay for the state to enact violence on perpetrators, but not victims?
Dude, i didnt make any remark on what forms of self defense are appropriate. I merely pointed out that robbery is a violent crime, wheras theft is not.
Subsequently robbery is facing harsher sentences than simple theft and it is important to distinguish the two, or any other forms of crime for that matter. There is a reason why all sorts of crime have been defined specifically and differently from each other.
So they make the internet worse for poor people? I could get through 20k in a second, but someone with just an old laptop would take a few minutes, no?
Couldn’t give less of a fuck, if someone steals from me they’re gonna face the consequences
Humans work off of incentives and risk. If there’s essentially no consequences for pickpocketting and the incentive is quite high with expensive phones and cash potential, the balance is way out of proportion. A good chance of getting your shit rocked brings it a bit more in line.
The possibility of getting shot or stabbed is way out of proportion the other way. That’s the problem with America. You can’t even give someone the bird when they nearly crash into you without fear of getting shot.
I interpreted it as a negative, like “Americans are violent,” heh.
Is it?
I sympathize with the complex though.
We have a hyper sense of justice instilled in us from a young age. It’s like the basis of our country (or so we’re taught).
I’d say it’s more about retribution. There’s a craving for punishment against perceived wrongs.
I don’t disagree. Basically what we’re told justice is.
There’s nothing perceived about someone snatching my wallet. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I get it, but it has to be obvious how quickly this logic can spiral, though.
If I come around a corner and find you putting the boots to someone begging you to stop, you’re getting smoked by the biggest thing I can find. I don’t know the context. Violence to stop violence is measured.
Being wronged isn’t a carte blanche. As soon as you introduce violence, suddenly violence actually becomes the measured response against YOU.
Being wronged isn’t a carte blanche. As soon as you introduce violence, suddenly violence actually becomes the measured response against YOU.
am i supposed to ask the robber nicely to give me my stuff back?
I mean, it’s a reasonable place to start at the very least?
We’re talking about pickpockets, right?
Someone tried to pickpocket me in Europe on the train. I blocked the door and, despite having no common language, I left them know I was aware they had taken my stuff. I’m pretty sure they understood it was my intention to get it back and that was going to be a hassle for everyone.
They just handed it back and left.
Should I have just started swinging?
Live by the sword, die by the sword, somehow still relevant.
So committing a crime yourself, assault (and/or assault with a deadly weapon), in response to the first crime, pickpocketing, is suddenly totes okay then? I don’t get it. Seems like retributive extrajudicial punishment to me. Just because it’s a real thing that happened and not just perceived doesn’t suddenly absolve you of committing violent crime in return. If you hospitalize the pickpocket and give them a lifelong limp, you’ve given them far more severe and retributive punishment than just taking their wallet in return.
I mean, who knew, maybe this is why we have laws and shit.
It’s not a crime. You can use force to reclaim stolen property. Legally, it gets ‘interesting’ when you involve a weapon in your use of force, because some areas allow the threat of deadly force far before it can actually be used and you’re probably going to expose yourself to legal avenues if the police don’t like you when they show up. But simply kicking someone’s ass after they stole from you? Perfectly permissible.
If you want to talk about the morality of it, that’s a different conversation.
Yes it is totes ok. Encouraged even. Fuck a thief.
If I beat the shit out of a pickpocket and give them a lifelong limp too bad so sad, they have a permanent reminder of the principle of fuck around find out or FAFO. I was minding my own business right until they decided to make themselves my business.
Legality is stupid and does factor into 99% of my actions so I will disregard it as a decision making factor.
I was minding my own business right until they decided to make themselves my business.
Poetry
Lmao you’re unhinged dude. Get a grip and maybe realize the shit in your wallet isn’t more valuable than a human life.
Especially considering its probably all credit and debit cards that you can cancel almost immediately and get any money spent by a thief returned to your accounts. But yeah, someone deserves a lifelong limp because they inconvenienced you. Get the fuck outta here lmao.
You might not support someone like Trump politically but you’re no better than those who voted for him. These attitudes are 100% why US society is deeply fucked, the politics are just a symptom of this violent brainrot.
why are we defending thieves?
You realise beating up a pickpocket is itself a stupid game that will get you in jail, right?
If the idea is that I can’t defend my own property then I understand why pickpocketing is so rampant elsewhere.
I don’t want to kill anybody, but I’m not gonna just hand it over with a smile on my face.
Yeah I feel like I am in crazy town. If you don’t want your ass kicked keep your hands out of my pocket. There will be consequences and they will be lopsided.
You don’t have to want to kill anybody, but it’s still a crime to violently assault someone. Further, you can still kill someone without trying, say you punch him once and he goes lights out and his head hits the concrete so hard it kills him. Doesn’t matter that you didn’t want to, you just killed someone.
Now if you used something defensive like pepper spray so you can escape with your wallet? That’s a different story. There’s a wide gap between protecting your property and assaulting someone.
So like … where is that righteous violence right now? What’s currently happening in the US is way worse than pickpocketing.
These are all the fantasies of people who think they’re the winner in every single outcome.
There’s a significant percentage of Americans that wouldn’t take that as a negative. As in, aren’t just violent, but are proud of being violent and consider it to be a positive quality. Not all of us, but a fair few. Hence you get things like some gun people fantasizing about having someone break in to their house so that they have a justification to shoot someone and feel righteous about it.
I think that’s a positive. Americans, in the absence of law enforcement, will fight to defend themselves and their property (and vicariously, the property of others).
Stopping thievery, is, unto itself, a just cause.
This is definitely a win for the Americans, beating the shit out of pickpockets is awesome.
The pickpocket has already failed if the mark sees them, so not sure what was happening here. And people who are not used to pick pockets would not likely be looking out for them. Were they going around in groups wearing “Official Paris Olympics Pickpocket” hi-vis vests?
I live in Canada, there’s surprisingly little pickpocketing here too, and we don’t have the same gun/weapon laws.
Like the Americans, we’ll straight up beat you to a pulp if you try some shit, and we’re very sorry about that… You motherfucker.
If you want to steal shit, at least be moral about it and go to a walmart or something. I’m sorry but I’m not even going to pretend to be sorry about a pickpocket targeting normal people getting his (or her) ass beaten.
Though, on that note, is it harder or riskier to shoplift in Europe? Maybe that’s why we have fewer pickpockets because stores are much easier and safer targets. Unless you get a particularly enthusiastic mall cop after you, even if you get caught, it’ll probably be a fairly polite interaction involving more disappointment than rage, all the way from capture to sentencing, at least in Canada.
Plus these days the odds of getting cash is low and the expensive device everyone carries has gps tracking built in, so the reward might be too low for the risk.
If you see someone shoplifting, no you didn’t.
Edit: to clarify, I agree with you, and that’s part of the intention of leaving this quip here
This is my viewpoint too.
If I’m a witness to shoplifting, I’m not a witness to shoplifting.
Unless you’re a kleptomaniac, you’re probably not stealing because you want to. You’re stealing because you have to.
Corporations have insurance, and they’re not people; so if they lose some money in the transaction, I am unbothered.
The majority of shoplifting is organized effort to sell shit online or to fund a drug habit. Why because only a drug addict will spend more hours stealing than you do working and he will by himself steal more than 40 casual thieves because he’s motivated
Seems pessimistic.
What about the people who can’t afford to live and need to steal to eat? Those downtrodden because some rich CEO asshole decided to try to replace them with AI, and they lost everything being unemployed and having the price of everything shoot through the roof for no goddamned reason?
What about those people?
I’m not saying that there aren’t people who steal to fund their addiction, but that’s not the only motivator.
We’re all humans.
I’m sorry but I’m not even going to pretend to be sorry about a pickpocket targeting normal people getting his (or her) ass beaten.
What about American tourists in a foreign nation that has been historically violently repressed via the American Military and economic shock treatment by American institutions? Those American tourists enabled their government and businesses to do that, via their votes and their labor for said businesses. In this respect they are not just “regular people” in a place like Mexico, Chile, Iran, Iraq, and so on.
You know rich people have rigged our gov for ages. Those wars we fought were highly unpopular and nobody wanted them. Rich people made lots of money as a result. Believe it or not, “no more stupid wars” was part of Trump’s campaign platform. It’s about the only part that dems liked too. You can’t run for office here without being super rich unless it’s local or an anomaly.
Bernie Sanders, David Hogg, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and Jasmine Crockett.
Stop this defeatist attitude bullshit. The real problem is people don’t vote in the fucking primaries.
Zohran Mamdani is an example of what happens when people turn out for the primary.
This is bullshit logic. In the last 40 years the government has served the interests of the few and half the time is literally elected by the minority that would have lost the election in most democracies.
Also actions are a moral reflection on you alone not the victims
I won’t try to argue about the morality of it, though I can’t agree that pickpocketing any random American does anything to fight the military industry or their imperialism, though I will grant that culpability for it is complex. But when you play with fire, you should expect to get burned occasionally.
Omg, this turned out to be a thread with plenty explanations to USians that societies have laws, police, judges…
You can blame the orange guy all you want, but your culture is completely derailed. Murder (under whatever “reasons”) can’t be a national sport.
Weapon manufacturers really did a good job in the land of the free…
I mean obviously the gun laws are insane but the act of collectively beating the shit out of pickpockets has my respect.
Violent retribution as a core principle might contribute to your completely insane murder rates.
Man, people should have a right to defend their shit. The idea that someone should be allowed to take your things in front of you and you should be charged if you beat them up is pretty unhinged tbh
I fully disagree and enjoy living in a society free of such barbaric tendencies.
Make your people happy and maybe they’ll stop stealing your shit.
There are people who steal no matter how wealthy or comfortable they are. Theft is not stopped by making people happy. Reduced significantly, yes. But absolutely not stopped. Wage theft is the largest form of theft in the world, done exclusively by the better off and rich. Never forget that
(And yes, I’m saying that people should have the right to beat up their employers to get back their stolen money)
Not sure whether to downvote because of the shitty human nature argument, or upvote because you’re right about wage theft.
Also not really a thing here, and that’s fucking insane
It is a thing there, in fact.
Where do you live? I want your shit
Not rhetorical, I personally want your shit
I bet you would, but assuming you’re American, you’ll never get anywhere close to it
Where is that? Turkmenistan? Russia? Bhutan?
Man, it’s just shit. Life should be of higher value than an object, even if it’s a really cool object or useful. You beating someone for taking something is a bigger problem then things being taken. You can’t commit a crime because someone else also committed a crime first. Get it?
Quite simply, that should be the thief’s decision to make. It’s their risk to undertake, it was their decision to make that choice to rob and steal.
You can’t commit a crime because someone else also committed a crime first. Get it?
Legality is not morality.
Just like it is your decision to make too? Do you not see how that applies right back to you as the victim that then perpetrates a crime? It is in no way moral to gun some one down because they stole your chocolate bar, or your daughters virginity for that matter. It is your decision to act in retaliation, howsoever you do, and yes you should be held accountable for how YOU handle a situation, any situation.
What’s really lost in this whole conversation is how its… 2025 and almost nobody walks around with cash anymore?
You can literally call your bank and credit card companies and have all your cards cancelled and locked within minutes? Any money spent by the thief will be returned to your accounts?
If it’s your phone stolen instead of your wallet… You didn’t have it set to be locked or auto-lock when theft is detected? You didn’t have find your device set up? You don’t have it set to be able to be remotely wiped? Pretty sure you can also get your phone insured for theft.
One of the few valuable things Tyler Durden said in Fight Club was “You are not the contents of your wallet. You are not the car you drive. You are not your fucking khakis.” Yet Americans still love to extend the concept of who they are to the things they own.
People are fucking unhinged, man.
Here here! It’s what they are indoctrinated to do in their defense. You make a good point that decades and decades of effort has gone into making things more secure has reduced the risk/reward for stuff like pickpocketing. I would bet they mostly target things like travel documentation now for identity theft, something more varied and readily available in multi country Europe than North America.
Pretty sure you can also get your phone insured for theft.
No individual should be expected to use insurance to protect themselves from theft as a solution to it. That’s a crazy take.
That’s literally why insurance exists and is a foundational principle in most modern societies, but uhm, go ahead and keep living in the stone age.
What about a pickpocket that stole a stupid iPhone from a rich teen who would get a new one the very next day? And, in some less frequent cases, the pickpocket may have had actual needs like buying medicine…
That’s the reason we have a judicial system. Not even police are supposed to do harm, only prevent harm and bring into justice system.
I know the system has many flaws. That’s beyond the point. Those who prefer to go vigilante are calling for making it worse. Specially if we take into account the effects of inequality on a hands-on self-service judicial approach…
Are you actually defending thieves?
Why can’t the pickpocket go get a job and buy his own damn iPhone. My stuff is mine, you try to take it and I’ll hit you. This is like basic human behavior.
But the judicial system famously doesn’t differentiate between people doing what they need to for good reasons and those doing it for bad reasons…
Wouldn’t that be factoring in motive and mitigating circumstances during sentencing?
And, in some less frequent cases, the pickpocket may have had actual needs like buying medicine…
Likewise, a pickpocketing victim may also need to buy medicine.
Fair point. Thanks for providing it with assertiveness.
How’s the pickpocket to know the person in question’s situation? That’s one of the top justifications scammers in india use as to why they pretend what they do is reasonable. But reality is they don’t know, and they don’t care. They’ll steal from anyone.
What about a pickpocket that stole a stupid iPhone from a rich teen who would get a new one the very next day? And, in some less frequent cases, the pickpocket may have had actual needs like buying medicine…
Fuck Em.
I know the system has many flaws. That’s beyond the point.
That isn’t beyond the point. That is the point.
Also you can make up sob stories about those people all day if you want to. Got nothing to do with reality but if you like to feel sad for them knock yourself out.
My most American belief is that society fell apart when we got rid of dueling. Assholes need the threat of violent retribution to contain their assholery, and without that, they just shit everywhere.
Of course, that belief falls apart the minute that you realize that assholes can be good at dueling, too…
It also falls apart when dueling did not generally cross classes. If you were a rich guy your “defense of your honor” was either petty or eliminating competition, sometimes both. No poor person was going to take out a “rich asshole” by any other means than being charged with murder. The only violent retribution available to the masses is revolt accompanied by a guillotine.
Very true.
The public largely supported the abolition of duelling. The reason it disappeared was because it was largely associated with slave owners in the south and it disappeared after they lost the Civil War.
Watching 60 days in is an absolutely insane thing to watch as a non american. People living like cockroaches in moldy shit stained rooms. People just sleep on the floor because they are over capacity, violence, food that looks just downright like a hazard to eat. And people in there are like: yeah, i’ve been here 10 times. I can’t get a job so i do crime and then i land here again. Or guys like: i grew some weed, so obviously i’m in this slave hole for 10 years.
What I find worse is how many Americans refuse to accept that our society can and should treat prisoners better. Like I’m not advocating for luxury hotels or unrestricted freedoms for them, just humane conditions, reasonable sentence lengths, and a focus on rehabilitation. What we’re doing isn’t working and is a stain on our collective soul.
Though I will say most Americans have odd understandings of quality of life. Owning a car is seen as so fundamental that people feel attacked at the idea of building cities where it’s not a necessity, while the idea that we should provide free meals to schoolchildren or providing medicine to prisoners is seen by many as government waste. Even our fundamental and foundational rights such as state appointed lawyers for the indigent accused of crimes are nickel and dimed to uselessness, and the idea of providing these lawyers for all accused who want them is seen as radical.
This is hardly a bright side to the fucked up cloud that is the modern prison system, but something I have found notable is that some of the most interesting stuff about restorative justice has come from American scholars and activists. It’s notable to me because whilst America seems to distill all the things I hate most about how society treats crime and prisoners, I recognise a heckton of these things in the justice systems of other countries too — including my own. However, there does not seem to be as much appetite for digging into these problematic aspects in countries where things are perceived to be on the more moderate side.
Like I say, it’s hardly a “bright side”, but I think there isn’t an easy answer to “how do we respond to people who transgress against society?”. Even if we agree that we should focus on rehabilitation, the question of how to do that is a pretty complex one. It would be wrong to say that I’m hopeful when there’s so much fucked up stuff deeply entrenched in modern justice systems (especially the American one), but I do feel bolstered by how much I have personally had my perspectives challenged by the aforementioned scholars and activists resisting unjust “justice” in the US.
Yeah I’ve been seeing a lot of folks act like all Americans are absolute barbarians who revel in our nation’s cruelty, but prison abolitionists still operate here and plenty of communities here are actually putting rubber to road for rehabilitative justice.
And as you say, it’s fucking hard. You want to give people chances but you need to prioritize victims safety and rights, and the fact is there are bad actors in every group. And that’s not even getting into situations where life is a hell of a lot easier when you keep giving one person more and more chances.
I’ve been fortunate enough to know some folks in the prison ab scene and they’re good folks trying to do right by the sorts of folks nobody else is gonna. And I’ve come to the conclusion that you can judge a society by how it treats its criminals. Who will defend the unsympathetic? Someone’s gotta, otherwise you’re a hop skip and a jump away from having a role where the worst people can get official sanction to be their worst selves. Round here the prison guards are often just as bad of people as the prisoner.
have they tried not doing crime?
USian checking in, and you’re absolutely right. We somehow have the biggest police budget, while simultaneously having the most violent crimes & incarceration rates of all the developed nations.
there’s no “somehow” about it. police don’t stop crime.
Right, they punish ex post facto & not judicially
The other day, I was learning about the private prison system in the UK. It was grim seeing how that whole process leads to the proliferation of crime. Things are a damn sight better here than in the US, but it’s clear that our current trajectory is taking us closer to the US on that front.
It’s a self reinforcing cycle, because the rhetoric of crime leads to the proliferation of prisons, and a system that finds it profitable to criminalise people. I’m not even talking about prisons in terms of rehabilitation Vs punitive justice here, but almost the stage before that — people who probably shouldn’t be considered criminals at all. I suppose what I am positing is that we should be applying preventative medicine" lens towards crime and criminals. But of course, where’s the profit in actually addressing socioeconomic inequities?
The saddest/funniest thing to me about this whole bit is how every. single. US. person defending their right to righteously beat the shit out of someone for picking their pocket never, ever, even considers the idea that they might lose.
It’s just like gun owners in general. They all think they’re a perfect shot and the other guy must be like a Storm Trooper in Star Wars and can’t hit the broad side of a barn.
Everyone thinks they’re the hero and that they don’t need cops and laws until they’re the one bleeding out in an alleyway on the verge of death because they were stupid enough to “fight back.”
US Americans are completely fucking unhinged and live in a fantasy land where somehow every single one of them is the biggest and strongest with the biggest dick and will always win because their cause is righteous. What a crock of shit.
Willingness to stand up for oneself is not necessarily the same as one overestimating their ability to fight.
I was bullied regularly as a kid. I was no match at all for most of the bullies, they easily had strength, size, numbers, and fighting experience over me, but since the schools wouldn’t or couldn’t do a damn thing to protect me, especially when the bullies followed me well away from school grounds, the only choices I had were to either endure it, or to try to change the situation by standing up for myself. Even if I got my ass beat even worse just for standing up for myself, at the very least it made it clear to them that I was no longer guaranteed to be a frictionless target and that sometimes changes things for the better.
It’s not about winning. It’s about putting up the fight, because the potential outcomes of not fighting back aren’t always much better than standing up for oneself.
That said, I personally wouldn’t want to put a foreign trip in jeopardy by assaulting anyone if it wasn’t an actual self defense situation, much like back at home. I’m just responding to this idea that willingness to fight is not the same thing as being overly confident that one will come out on top.
and that sometimes changes things for the better.
And a lot of times it changes it for the worse, too. What even is this argument?
I don’t think you understand what it’s like to be constantly bullied and constantly on guard. At some point there is no concept of “worse”. At some point there is only the sense of “literally anything in the world except this.”
And I think you’d be shocked to find out how wrong you are. You’re describing my high school years. Guess what? Fighting back made it worse.
I’m genuinely sorry to hear that and I’m glad you made it out of there. But I stand by my point.
As do I. Sometimes the bullies genuinely have the upper hand. Like the Nazis versus the people in their concentration camps. Fighting back just lead to more violent retribution against those who were already being mistreated. You can’t magic your way into suddenly winning a losing battle. It’s absurdity after absurdity in here.
I think it’s actually a symptom of a small penis. Huge truck, big gun, itty bitty peepee.
When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away.
And now the police (ICE) are disappearing people. Can you blame people for wanting guns?
People!! Ugh. Downvoting me is letting your internalized opression taking over your moral!
I don’t downvote much. I logged in today just so I could downvote you.
Not sure why other folks did it, but for me, you seemed to like the attention.
